Are Premium Only caches less likely to get stolen?

[+zihyer]

Has there been any evidence or metrics to support whether or not posting a cache as premium would have a less likelihood of it getting stolen? I'm asking bc I became somewhat disenchanted over caching after having a large ammo box stolen from one of my hides. I eventually lost interest in caching altogether and dropped out for several years.

 

Lame excuse, meh,.. Probably but I had researched the old airfield, put in satellite and ground photos of the old bombers, barracks and other facilities from when it was operational. It was a seriously cool find right next to a geodetic marker.. really cool stuff. Ok, rant done.

 

Main reason I'm asking is that I've acquired some very interesting objects that I plan to use as containers for a series and it would really suck if they were pilfered. As a follow-on question, can I change an existing cache to premium? Obviously anyone that has saved it before would have the old coordinates but I'm wondering if that attribute can be changed.

 

(And yes, I realize I'm not premium. It's on the to-do list. I've recently upgraded my gps and, in doing so, exhausted all the resources I have been allotted for GC'ing for a month or two ).

Edited March 11, 2016 by zihyer

[+cerberus1]

As a basic member, you can't place pmo caches.

[+cerberus1]

When we had an ammo can thief in our area, he turned out to be a premium member.

Obviously in that situation, pmo would've meant nada.

 

Some swear that making 'em pmo does help though...

[+Manville Possum]

As a basic member, you can't place pmo caches.

 

But you can transfer it to a premium member who can set the cache status to PMO and then transfer it back to the basic members account, and the basic member then owns a PMO listing.

 

And to the OP, I think making a cache PMO makes them much safer. This has been my personal experience with my own geocache listings.

Edited March 11, 2016 by Manville Possum

[+noncentric]

Has there been any evidence or metrics to support whether or not posting a cache as premium would have a less likelihood of it getting stolen?

Depends on who you ask. There is some debate about whether PMO status really protects a cache, as premium members are not always better at replacing caches and/or logging TB's. Conversely, not all basic members are poor replacers/loggers. There prevailing assumption seems to be that the occurrence of careless cachers is higher among basic members, although most of the 'evidence' is anectodal. One thing to consider about your previous hide is whether benchmarkers or waymarkers might've stumbled upon the ammo can if it was hidden close to a geodetic marker.

 

Some threads that have delved into this topic include:

Newbie Question: Why Mark a Cache as Premium Only?

Premium Member Only Caches

Premium Member Only Cache

 

As a follow-on question, can I change an existing cache to premium? Obviously anyone that has saved it before would have the old coordinates but I'm wondering if that attribute can be changed.

After you become a Premium Member, then yes - you can change your caches to PMO status. You can change the PMO status of your caches back-and-forth when you're a PM.

[+zihyer]

Thanks for all the great input! Just the stuff I needed. As someone who has reaped the benefits of free membership for as long as I have, I wouldn't feel right submitting all my new caches as pmo when I get to that stage. That being said, I wouldn't be too upset over losing an Altoids tin but these things I've been preparing to place are just too cool. I'm really stoked about sharing them; especially since they're military - oriented and this is a military town with a rich Army history. It'd be a shame if they all got stolen and I think it'd be worth doing all i could to preserve them.

 

After you become a Premium Member, then yes - you can change your caches to PMO status. You can change the PMO status of your caches back-and-forth when you're a PM.

Thanks much for the answer. That makes me wonder though.. if/when my premium subscription expires and I don't renew, would I be able to maintain or even view my pmo caches?

 

Really appreciate the answers and insight on this friends!

[+geodarts]

Do caches disappear because other cachers are taking the containers, because other cachers have not replaced the cache as intended, or because noncachers stumble across things and occasionally take what they find for any number of reasons - they don't like ammo cans left in public space, they do not know about the game and apply the "finder's keepers" rule, or they needed an ammo can and that overruled other considerations.

 

One possible advantage a PMO might offer is that it cuts down visitors so that there are less people to make a geotrail, be observed searching, or otherwise attract attention to the location. I have been surprised, though, by some of the times that people have found caches left in areas where one might think that no one but a cacher would possibly go. Where very few people have gone so there is no trail to the cache. Caches where there is a quizzical note in the log left by someone who happened to come across it, with the container returned as placed. A PMO cache will not affect that kind of situation. After knowing about a number of caches that were removed by groundskeepers, maintenance workers, concerned hikers, and the like, when a cache disappears I do not assume that a cacher had anything to do with it. It may be that the placement needed to be reconsidered.

Edited March 12, 2016 by geodarts

[+EScout]

My experience is that mystery or multi caches are much better protected from thieves. All of my regular caches have had containers missing, some many multiple times. 3 of my 4 multi caches have original containers, each over 10 years placed. The quality of trade items remains much higher also.

[+macatac1961]

Has there been any evidence or metrics to support whether or not posting a cache as premium would have a less likelihood of it getting stolen?

Right after they came up with that intro app, my ammo cans started to disappear. Not the lock and locks or other Tupperware, just ammo cans. I had no choice but to make all my caches premium members only and haven't lost any since.

[+WarNinjas]

I think in some situations it does help. We had one in a very popular area. It got muggled a few times. We moved the spot and changed it to PM only and the problems have been a lot less. We still only do it for our placements that show it might be a problem and leave the rest for all to find.

[+noncentric]

Along with what geodarts mentioned, I think it's more likely that cache containers are disappearing due to muggles and not due to theft by cachers.

 

New cachers, whether they are Basic or Premium Members, may inadvertently be contributing to cache disappearances by not using appropriate stealth or by not replacing camo correctly. When muggles see someone replacing a cache container, they may go over and take a look at that spot after the cacher leaves. If they see the container then they may think it's just garbage and remove it. On at least 2 occasions I've seen cachers in city parks rooting around trees and bushes in full view of other park-goers that were obviously curious about their behavior. Presumably, the PM's would be more aware of the stealth factor because they presumably learn more about the hobby before paying the PM fee. Of course, this presumption doesn't apply 100% of the time.

[cezanne]

. Presumably, the PM's would be more aware of the stealth factor because they presumably learn more about the hobby before paying the PM fee.

 

I do not agree and I would not even dare to say that newer cachers act less stealthy. In my experience there are many very experienced cachers who do not care the least what happens to the cache container after they have found it - they argue that if someone hides a cache at an exposed location, they have to take into account that their hide might disappear.

[+Bear and Ragged]

My experience is that mystery or multi caches are much better protected from thieves. All of my regular caches have had containers missing, some many multiple times. 3 of my 4 multi caches have original containers, each over 10 years placed. The quality of trade items remains much higher also.

 

This ^ is probably the better option.

PMO in addition should be better still!

 

Can be a very simple multi, with just getting numbers from a sign.

[+zihyer]

Many thanks for all the thoughtful insight friends.

 

I've probably spent way more time thinking about this than I should. My thinking was that if I was a guy just out to steal ammo cans, once I learned the trick about just going on this cool website that just hands out coordinates of free loot at no charge, that would absolutely be my go-to source for free swag. Given the remote and [very] off the beaten path nature of my muggled can, I'd wager quite a bit that it was someone w a GPS using gc.com in some capacity.

 

Someone pointed out that maybe it was someone after the benchmarker. Honestly, I didn't even know that was a thing. Bc from that marker, the can wouldn't be hard to spot. The interesting thing is that they took out the original tin (Altoids tin) from the ammo can and left it.

 

At any rate, I really like the suggestion about making them multis. I'll probably go that route. macatac1961's comment kinda hits it home for me.

 

cerberus1, Just out of curiosity, how did you all catch the guy stealing cans in your area? Was there a thread about it?

 

Thanks again everyone. Really appreciate the suggestions and "notes from the field".

[+cerberus1]

cerberus1, Just out of curiosity, how did you all catch the guy stealing cans in your area? Was there a thread about it?

Email sent.

[+NanCycle]

Any method (PMO, puzzle, multi, high D/T) that keeps the cache off the radar of "muggles with apps" will make it less likely to be stolen. No method is a guarantee, except not placing it at all.

[+Isonzo Karst]

That makes me wonder though.. if/when my premium subscription expires and I don't renew, would I be able to maintain or even view my pmo caches?

 

Yes, your Basic Member account can see, edit, disable, archive and otherwise handle your PMO cache just fine. The ONLY thing that's different is that the check box to make the cache PMO on the cache edit page will NOT appear if you're a Basic Member.

 

And that's the answer to your other question about making existing caches PMO - once you're Premium Member, you can check the box that will appear on the cache edit page (I think it's under the "placed by" pane).

 

I'll agree with noncentric, most cache disappearance has nothing to do with geocachers, it's about the cache being found by non-cachers.

A multi-cache will not alter this. I own 120+ active hides, have placed over 200. I've had at least 20 ammo cans taken through the years. ONCE it was clearly by a geocacher (they replaced the ammo can with a camo painted food jar). I expect most of the rest has been hunters, and people out there in the world. Ammo cans are inherently valuable, thus they disappear.

[+BAMBOOZLE]

As a basic member, you can't place pmo caches.

 

But you can transfer it to a premium member who can set the cache status to PMO and then transfer it back to the basic members account, and the basic member then owns a PMO listing.

 

And to the OP, I think making a cache PMO makes them much safer. This has been my personal experience with my own geocache listings.

 

+1.....years ago I made all mine PMO and it made a big difference ....also fewer nuisance NM and NA logs which should have been DNF.

Also when writing up your description do not say it is an ammo can ( just say regular size cache painted green )...in a few areas of the country cachers told me they did this and it helped.

[+Lil Devil]

Checking my personal GSAK database for California, which I have been maintaining for several years, I find:

 

Currently there are 136,952 caches in California, of which 26,553 or 19.4% are PMO.

 

In the last two years, 27,224 caches have been archived, of which 4,422 or 3.9% are PMO.

 

Of course this doesn't take into account the reasons for archival.

[+noncentric]

. Presumably, the PM's would be more aware of the stealth factor because they presumably learn more about the hobby before paying the PM fee.

 

I do not agree and I would not even dare to say that newer cachers act less stealthy. In my experience there are many very experienced cachers who do not care the least what happens to the cache container after they have found it - they argue that if someone hides a cache at an exposed location, they have to take into account that their hide might disappear.

 

Agreed, it's not a universal trend and it's not even a proven 'presumption'. That is why I included a disclaimer sentence that followed the two sentences you quoted.

Presumably, the PM's would be more aware of the stealth factor because they presumably learn more about the hobby before paying the PM fee. Of course, this presumption doesn't apply 100% of the time.

[+vw_k]

As has already been mentioned, just because someone has paid for premium membership it doesn't guarantee they'll be stealthy, re-hide the cache well and not steal it. Also you'd be surprised how some locations that you think are "off the beaten path" are actually visited by other people, kids are especially good at exploring everywhere and discovering things.

 

Although I'm not a PM at the moment and would love to think we could live in a world where people don't find going PMO necessary, I do understand your concerns. Your best bet would probably be a multi pronged approach:

 

1)Make it a PMO cache.

2)Make it some sort of multi or puzzle cache.

3)Don't mention on the cache page that the container is an ammo can or military related, consider asking cachers not to post photos of the hides as spoilers too.

[+Lil Devil]

Currently there are 136,952 caches in California, of which 26,553 or 19.4% are PMO.

 

In the last two years, 27,224 caches have been archived, of which 4,422 or 3.9% are PMO.

Looking at the numbers another way:

 

In the last two years, 36,521 caches have been published in California, of which 7,420 or 20.3% are PMO.

Of those, 4,844 caches have been archived, of which 637 or 13.2% are PMO.

 

Of the 29,101 non-PMO caches, 4,207 or 14.5% have been archived.

Of the 7,420 PMO caches, 637 or 8.6% have been archived.

 

Certainly PMO caches are less likely to get archived. Whether they are archived because they are stolen or for another reason is difficult to quantify. How many are stolen and replaced without archival would be extremely difficult if not impossible to quantify.

[+colleda]

Any method (PMO, puzzle, multi, high D/T) that keeps the cache off the radar of "muggles with apps" will make it less likely to be stolen. No method is a guarantee, except not placing it at all.

Another point is don't mention in the description that the container is an ammo can. Some COs do.

[cezanne]

 

Certainly PMO caches are less likely to get archived. Whether they are archived because they are stolen or for another reason is difficult to quantify. How many are stolen and replaced without archival would be extremely difficult if not impossible to quantify.

 

A lot of caches get archived because the owner lost interest into geocaching or lost the motivation to maintain the cache and not because the container got stolen. So comparisons of the number of archived PMO and not PMO caches have a high bias.

[+narcissa]

My experience is that mystery or multi caches are much better protected from thieves. All of my regular caches have had containers missing, some many multiple times. 3 of my 4 multi caches have original containers, each over 10 years placed. The quality of trade items remains much higher also.

 

This has been my experience and my observation as well.

[+briansnat]

I'd say that a "premium member only" cache is less likely to get stolen. The coords are not available to the casual cache thief. The serious cache thief will pay for the membership and no cache is safe from them (see)

 

I think the best defense against cache thieves is to place your cache far of the beaten path and hide it well. It's no guarantee but it will significantly reduce the chance of theft.

[+jellis]

I know of one cacher who had issues with a father and child cachers (non-PMO) and specific cache. I won't get into the whole thing because IMO it was just to childish on the finders part. The other cacher ended up adopting the said cache and then the real trouble began. She still doesn't know which, the father or the child, is doing it but they made threats about stealing the said cache and her other caches. I suggested making them PMO, moving them a little and contacting GC. She did all that and so far none have been stolen as far as I know.

[+Stoke Bunnies]

We have issues in Dorset with a good many caches going missing, all PMOs, and the same 2 names appear in the audit trail, just before they go missing. One of these names has been a premium member for 6 years, but has not found a single cache. The other name has been appearing more recently, and again, a premium member with no finds until there were some backdated finds last week. Logs on those finds were checked for a signature against that name, and there were none.

 

I saw earlier in this topic that a cache stealer was caught, can anyone let me know how?