New Category Proposal: Dutch Municipal and Provincial Heritage

January 28, 2016

Thanks to national and international waymarkers demonstrates our category National Monuments - Dutch National Monuments is a great success. :rolleyes:

But we encounter a number of problems.

We are still missing a Category for around 41,000 addresses that are designated as a Dutch municipal or provincial heritage site or monument. Because this didn't fit in the category of Rijksmonumenten - Dutch National Monuments.

Everyday we see this very nice potential waymarks.

Therefore we created a new category: Dutch Municipal and Provincional Heritage.

http://www.Waymarking.com/cat/details.aspx?f=1&guid=b5f30039-46cc-4c18-90ba-547ae01bbfe0&gid=6&exp=True

Would you please look at the new category and evaluate whether it is clear what we have in mind.

And give also your opinion or comment in this topic.

Grtz & Thx John

1.5k · January 28, 2016

The English language spelling is Provincial.

1.5k · January 28, 2016

Can the Dutch national monuments category be expanded to be Dutch heritage sites recognized at the national, provincial and municipal levels?

January 28, 2016

I was going to ask the same question as elyob. Is it possible to add the Provincial and Municipal Heritage Sites into the current Dutch National Monuments category or do they justify a category of their own? If the heritage sites are a separate entity and administered by a different organization, then a new category for them makes sense. But if the historical sites all fall under one domain or entity and administered by the same organization, then adding another category doesn't seem logical.

January 28, 2016

Thx for your fast reply guys.

Fixed the typo in provincial, but can't fix it in the title of this topic :lol:

Rijksmonumenten - Dutch National Monuments and Dutch Municipal / Provincial Heritage Sites or Monuments

are 2 different categories in The Netherlands.

Rijksmonumenten - Dutch National Monuments is under control and protection of the National Comity.

-Has there own big official database.

-Has there own creteria to be an official National one.

-Many maintenance costs are paid by the Dutch government.

If you want to change something about the monument you must have permission from the Dutch government.

Dutch Municipal / Provincial Heritage Sites or Monuments has nothing to do with the National Comity.

-Has therefor no database. Exept wikipedia (voluntary work) and some cities has some info on there website but not easy to find.

-Has other creteria to be one made by the municipality or Province.

-If you want to change something about the heritage site or monument you must have permission from the municipality or Province.

A Rijksmonument is never a Municipal or Provincial.

A Municipal is never a Rijksmonument or Provincial.

A Provincial is never a Rijksmonument or Municipal.

We have 12 Provinces in The Netherlands.

Only 2 has Provincial Heritage Sites and Monuments.

That's why we put these 2 in 1 category.

-Drenthe has a very good, uptodate and beautiful database. http://www.provincialemonumentendrenthe.nl/monumentenlijst/

-Noord-Holland has a PDF hidden on there site.

I hope my explanation is a bit obvious that they are two different categories.

Grtz John.

1.6k · January 28, 2016

Topic title edited

January 28, 2016

Thx Bruce GR8.

Grtz John.

btw no opinion about this ?

Edited January 28, 2016 by dreamhummie

1.6k · January 29, 2016

I think the idea is good but my concern is precedence it may set. In the U.S. like the Dutch we have many state that have state registers and some do not. They are all administered differently, in many cases they overlap the National Register with some on state registers also on the national. As each state's register is administered differently it would be unwieldy to have one inclusive category and I would not like to see 50 separate state categories either. When it comes to municipal registers/list they are countless and diverse thus difficult to administer well as a category.

I am sure other countries have similar situations. My concern is that it could lead to a proliferation of region specific categories.

7.8k · January 29, 2016

As each state's register is administered differently it would be unwieldy to have one inclusive category and I would not like to see 50 separate state categories either.

There are already historical marker categories for all 50 US states and 6 Canadian provinces. The precedent has already been set.

1.6k · January 29, 2016

As each state's register is administered differently it would be unwieldy to have one inclusive category and I would not like to see 50 separate state categories either.

There are already historical marker categories for all 50 US states and 6 Canadian provinces. The precedent has already been set.

Agreed, however this would be an extension to that precedence as this is for site/buildings on state registers thus could result in a new category for each state, not something I would want to see.

January 29, 2016

These are 2 different categories in the Netherlands.

A 3th Dutch province has the idea to make a Provincial too but its blowing off because of the costs.

With these 2 categories we tackle all other Heritage categories in The Netherlands.

There will be never room for a 3th on Waymarking for Dutch Heritage,Monuments or something else like this.

If another province will make a provincial heritage site in the future we put it in this new category.

Like other Countries we don't have Heritage Markers like Germany,France, UK or the US in The netherlands.

Municipal and Provincial are closer to each other then these two to the Dutch National Comity.

That's why we can't combine them when we setup Rijksmonumenten in april 2015.

But Waymarkers here see so many beautifull waymarks that can only be posted in a new different one.

I guarantee you it is not sleeping category.

We have active Officers and Waymarkers who have already many pics in there archive.

Rijksmonumenten did 400+ very intresting WM in 9 months and will expload in a few weeks.

Is there another new/latest Category on Waymarking wich has such grow ?

This new Dutch Municipal and Provincial Heritage category will be more massive if it will be activeted on Waymarking.

Mark my words or I will eat up my shoes.

No drive by postings, only interesting pics and postings will come to you like Rijksmonumenten is.

I'am sure we will find soon a Historic Dutch Heritage Pergola to post. :lol:

Grtz John.

Edited January 29, 2016 by dreamhummie

1.4k · January 29, 2016

You did a great work on the category, but I cannot see a single reason to have two categories.

Yes, they are managed by different entities, but this does not matter for a Waymarking category at all. Whatever agency or organization manages the list, they define what is valid. It's a simple Yes or No. The rest is up to the category officers. They define the posting requirements and decide what lists they want to accept. The source list or database can be a variable.

I am an officer in two similar categories, covering four countries; it's no problem.

In Switzerland, we have also the three levels as the Dutch: national, state and municipal level, called A, B and C lists, but also the A list is manged by the 26 cantons. Austria has only one level, but it is managed by the 9 states. Liechtenstein is small, they have one list. We have decided to accept the Liechtenstein and Austrian lists and the A and B lists from Switzerland, while ignoring the Swiss C lists for poor documentation and prevalence reasons. This sums up to 62 valid source lists for one category.

Germany is a complete mess. The monuments are managed by the 15 states. Some publish their database, some treat it as a state secret. But even there, some counties or cities decided to publish their local part of the list. So here we have an unknown number of valid source lists for one category.

Both categories work great. I cannot see why the Netherlands would be different.

Edited January 29, 2016 by fi67

January 29, 2016

I do see a reason for two seperate categories too, as the are completely different bij nature. The ony overlapping simularity is that they are both heritage objects. But imho is it is like

Independent Coffee Shops, Independent Doughnut Shops and Independent Pizza Restaurants. They would fit in one "Independent" category but are seperated as they are rather unique for themself as category.

As Dreamhummie statet earlier, they are both two different species, as they are differently:

- registered

- approved

- have different logo's

- managed etc.

another benefit is that they are mutualy exclusive (see earlier message of Dreamhummie). Two merge them al together in one cat. would seriously disorder the already existing very precise defined Rijksmonumenten category.

1.4k · January 29, 2016

The facts you are presenting are right. I do not doubt any of them. And I think it is a good idea to also allow the provincial and municipal monuments to be waymarked. But I do not agree that there is a reason for two different categories. The fact that the two databases are exclusive is proof that they are not completely independent and the managing agencies do cooperate. The category officers should do the same.

1.4k · January 29, 2016

In my opinion these all should be included in the existing category, if this happens the existing category has to be re-written. I totally agree with fi67 in all points.

January 30, 2016

Ouch

Sorry to read the line. Because this reaction has nothing to do with this topic Dutch Municipal and Provincial Heritage and it makes me and I still want to post a comment on this.

The category officers should do the same.

We worked so hard to make Dutch people enthusiastic for Waymarking the last year.

Then came the big server crash mid 2015 and all our work was gone.

We invest again into contact people, plz come back because its fun to Waymark, but many didn't.

End 2015 we gave (not for sale and unique) geocache coins away when e.g. was reached a Dutch milestone on Waymarking. For Example: http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=336457

We put people in the limelight. See http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=336418

We have almost every day contact by e-mail, Officers and NONE Officers, once a month a Skype evening with some Officers. Not for fun but about ideas, problems etc only about for Waymarking.

OK we laugh to.

Do not feel sorry for us but our fight goes on for Waymarking.

Now about Dutch Municipal and Provincial Heritage.

Like I already say before we have NO Heritage markers in The Netherlands.

If we have them it was so easy to set up this category.

If we named it Dutch Historical Markers there was NO PROBLEM for a Peer Review and was accepted in the way Waymarking works.

National like Rijksmonumenten is by the Goverment protected for national and international value.

National is not coorperating with Municipal, in NO way.

See Municipal as Dutch Heritage Markers.

Municipal is only to protect the Municipal value because the Goverment see this as none national and international value.

If there was no Municipal protection most Dutch Heritage was demolished and rebuilt in 20th century style.

France has for example the same 2 different categories on Waymarking:

Histoires de France (French historical markers = same as Dutch Municipal Monuments. (BUT WE HAVE NO MARKERS LIKE THE FRENCH, WE HAVE MUNICIPAL LITTLE SHIELDS)

Monuments Historiques Français = same as Dutch National Monument = Rijksmonumenten.

Now something about Provincial:

2 of the 12 Province in The Netherlands has Provincial protection.

WHY ?

It is far too expensive for a municipality to protect some Heritage.

So two ask the province to help for ant protection.

Two provinces have said yes to help. (Drenthe & Noord-Holland)

One (Limburg) has to help but public told NOT to stabbing in any money or help.

Nine provinces say nothing because it costs too much money and will never commit a Provincial monument.

Why has Drenthe a perfect Website and Noord- Holland a hidden pdf ?

Drenthe is a Province with the most Tourist every Year.

Because of the most National Parks, Forest, Bike trails, Campsites etc etc etc.

(I live in a rich Province )

To further attract tourists to Drenthe invest Drenthe in a wonderful website.

(Come an visit Drenthe it's wonderfull here. No kidding and you find the most Waymarks)

Noord-Holland attract tourists in a Hidden pdf and a website without mentioning were you can find a Provincial Heritage.

Maybe we must change the name of the category.

But with this category we protect ourself and the Dutch Heritage for any other upcoming It can not be combined with Rijksmonumenten because it is totally different.

(see links to france)

I hope i will make it clear what I mean with this.

English is not my mother tongue.

Grtz John.

Plz reply.

1.5k · January 31, 2016

I understand your arguments for separate Waymarking categories. However, I don't think you understand the potential to have one Waymarking category that will include all historic sites or objects, regardless of which level of government assigns the historic status. Perhaps that sentence needs to be properly translated to Dutch.

5.7k · January 31, 2016

Edited January 31, 2016 by Manville Possum

January 31, 2016

Yes you are right.

Thx. That would be a GR8 idea.

I´am glad to hear it from a good Waymarker. Why didn´t we think about it earlier.

I will ask all Leaders and Officers to delete there Categories and transport info and pics to Wikipedia. Wikipedia needs pics and inportent info that are posted on Waymarking. Because they haven´t.

Its easier to Waymark one category named `Wikipedia` on Waymarking.

Back from 1088 to 1 categories.

That will make it much easier for all to post a Waymark.

And we can enthuse more new people for Waymarking. Click, upload pic and go.

All 648321 waymarks worldwide in one nice category this would be great man.

NO

We changed the name and start a new topic. :lol:

Like for example the French Waymarkers did.

Grtz and Thx and Happy Wiki.

John aka one of the Dutch Heritage Lunatics :blink: :lostsignal:

btw.

Did you know how many mails i have got today about our group E/Bike charging Stations after i called a peer review. Not only from paid members of Groundspeak who can´t see a Peer Review but read the forum or hear it from another Waymarker that it is wake up again.

Do you know how many pics are made already of them waiting to be published.

I make people enthousiast for Waymarking. Especially in their own environment where they live.

Do you know how many pics are made of Dutch Municipal and Provincial Heritage sites already because we are love theme and will share theme with you.

Do you know that people have favorit categories and do not post in categories they don´t like.

Do you know that National Monuments has a completly different status as Municipal.

No your not Dutch, if you were you would know.

Do you know there will never be an ugly DRIVE/BY Pic will be published in this Category.

It is not my intention to be everywhere an Officer, I was an Officer in many many groups for a moment, only for a quick edit in the Dutch ones and after the fix I was gone.

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=331792

Plz read all I have said above in this topic to make it clear and don´t read the lines you wanna read and have a comment on.

Look further then your own Country what could be intresting for other nice and good Waymarkers to keep them Waymarking.

1.4k · January 31, 2016

Yes you are right.

Thx. That would be a GR8 idea.

Indeed, he is.

[...]

Like for example the French Waymarkers did.

The situation in France is different. They have a category for heritage sites and one for historical markers. Other countries have that, too.

The fact that the Netherlands do not have historical markers does not imply that it should have two different heritage site categories that only differ in the administrative level of the organization that is responsible for them.

[...]

Do you know how many pics are made of Dutch Municipal and Provincial Heritage sites already because we are love theme and will share theme with you.

That is a good reason to expand the existing category.

Do you know that people have favorit categories and do not post in categories they don´t like.

Do you know that National Monuments has a completly different status as Municipal.

No your not Dutch, if you were you would know.

They have a different status; not completely different, but different. A different status does not make a different thing. A good reason to expand the existing category.

[...]

Plz read all I have said above in this topic to make it clear and don´t read the lines you wanna read and have a comment on.

Look further then your own Country what could be intresting for other nice and good Waymarkers to keep them Waymarking.

I did read all your statements. Did you read mine?

Edited January 31, 2016 by fi67

January 31, 2016

I don't get the point yet of why a category Called: National monuments should be expanded with monuments with are NOT national.....

That would mean the the National monuments should be renamed and redefined. If that is what you all wish. OK. point taken.

It's perhaps also difficult to explain in English why two Dutch different cat's are very different :-)

For those experienced in Dutch, I guess that the following link will make it more clear:

https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monument_(erfgoed)

1.4k · January 31, 2016

I don't get the point yet of why a category Called: National monuments should be expanded with monuments with are NOT national.....

That would mean the the National monuments should be renamed and redefined. If that is what you all wish. OK. point taken.

It's perhaps also difficult to explain in English why two Dutch different cat's are very different :-)

For those experienced in Dutch, I guess that the following link will make it more clear:

https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monument_(erfgoed)

It makes sense to rewrite a part of the category description and to rename it. This is some work, but much less than getting an additional category through Peer Review.

I had a look at the link you provided (it needs an additional closing bracket to work, btw). I could not see anything special, compared to the situation in other countries.

Quite the contrary: also Wikipedia has only one article that covers all three types of Dutch monuments. This is exactly what has always been my point of view.

January 31, 2016

Quite the contrary: also Wikipedia has only one article that covers all three types of Dutch monuments. This is exactly what has always been my point of view.

euh not quite as wiki has :

https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rijksmonument

https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provinciaal_monument

https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gemeentelijk_monument

......

1.4k · February 1, 2016

Quite the contrary: also Wikipedia has only one article that covers all three types of Dutch monuments. This is exactly what has always been my point of view.

euh not quite as wiki has :

https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rijksmonument

https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provinciaal_monument

https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gemeentelijk_monument

OK, it has a distinct article for each. But there is also one for all.

New Category Proposal: Dutch Municipal and Provincial Heritage

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