Cheating?

[+Crusso]

A cacher has just logged over 1800! USA Geocoins today from all over the country on the same day.. Interesting that the cacher simultaneously found three different coins of mine, each of which has been lost for several years and one that I actually have never released. How does that work? Software manipulation?

I messaged him and was told he "made a mistake entering numbers" and if I disagreed I could delete the log.

 

Luco235 is the user.

[+L0ne.R]

A cacher has just logged over 1800! USA Geocoins today from all over the country on the same day.. Interesting that the cacher simultaneously found three different coins of mine, each of which has been lost for several years and one that I actually have never released. How does that work? Software manipulation?

I messaged him and was told he "made a mistake entering numbers" and if I disagreed I could delete the log.

 

Luco235 is the user.

 

He recently logged a trackable challenge cache, GC46KHT.

[+narcissa]

Groundspeak doesn't police trackables at all. You can delete any logs on your trackables as you see fit.

[+on4bam]

A cacher has just logged over 1800! USA Geocoins today from all over the country on the same day.. Interesting that the cacher simultaneously found three different coins of mine, each of which has been lost for several years and one that I actually have never released. How does that work? Software manipulation?

I messaged him and was told he "made a mistake entering numbers" and if I disagreed I could delete the log.

 

Luco235 is the user.

 

Delete the logs and if you care enough report the problem. He is probably logging from a list and has never seen the trackables.

[+Isonzo Karst]

I'd guess it's not even a list, just an auto-logger, generating codes in sequence.

[+Crusso]

I'd guess it's not even a list, just an auto-logger, generating codes in sequence.

Gotta be some kind of auto logger. The note is the same for each, including the same misspelling. Plus no one could log over 1800 logs in a couple hour period if they were hand typing them.

Wonder how he's getting away with this and how many times he's done it before.

And to be so blatant.

Edited January 6, 2016 by Crusso

[Keystone]

I am moving this thread from the Geocaching Topics forum to the Travel Bug forum.

 

My mailbox also is filled with log notifications on trackables that went missing years ago. In the olden days when TBs had simple numerical codes, you automatically got added to the watchlist for any trackable you moved. That's how I find out when the latest German auto-logger has struck.

[+Mudfrog]

Yep, received about 14 emails from the same person/bot/whatever this morning. They've been deleted.

[+on4bam]

What if one of the TB owners brought up this issue with the CO of the challenge cache? It it were me his found on the challenge would be deleted within seconds

[+Twentse Mug]

Some geocachers confuse travelbugs with geocaches.

[+on4bam]

Some geocachers confuse travelbugs with geocaches.

 

explain..

[+Manville Possum]

What if one of the TB owners brought up this issue with the CO of the challenge cache? It it were me his found on the challenge would be deleted within seconds

 

If they met the required number of discoveries virtually, and signed the log... I hope GS would reinstate their log if you deleted it.

[+Twentse Mug]

Some geocachers confuse travelbugs with geocaches.

 

explain..

 

So you find travelbugs and you discover geocaches?

[+on4bam]

Some geocachers confuse travelbugs with geocaches.

 

explain..

 

So you find travelbugs and you discover geocaches?

 

Where did you read that?

 

@Manville Possum

 

If the bogus logs for the TBs are deleted the cheater might no longer qualifies for the challenge, his log can be deleted. If he qualified without the bogus discoveries then why cheat?

[+Twentse Mug]

So the only thing to worry about is if this geocacher qualifies for this particular challenge cache or not?

[+Manville Possum]

Some geocachers confuse travelbugs with geocaches.

 

explain..

 

So you find travelbugs and you discover geocaches?

 

Where did you read that?

 

@Manville Possum

 

If the bogus logs for the TBs are deleted the cheater might no longer qualifies for the challenge, his log can be deleted. If he qualified without the bogus discoveries then why cheat?

 

Are challenge caches the reason behind these people with the auto bot programs virtually discovering TB's?

 

To me, my virtual discoveries are just as real as some of the geocachers here on my friends list. I have never seen them in person, and only interacted with them on the internet, that don't mean they are bogus friends.

[+on4bam]

To me, my virtual discoveries are just as real as some of the geocachers here on my friends list. I have never seen them in person, and only interacted with them on the internet, that don't mean they are bogus friends.

 

You can't compare randomly generating a string of characters with discovering a TB/Coin. The "secret" code that you find on a trackable is there so you don't go discovering TBs without actually seeing them.

If you think it's OK to discover TBs without seeing them then GS might just do away with tracking numbers all together. Just list TB, add a checkbox and an option to "log 'm all".

Why not log Earthcaches/virtuals without answering questions? While we're at it just log everything just from home without getting outside?

 

It's all about ethics.

[+Twentse Mug]

To me, my virtual discoveries are just as real as some of the geocachers here on my friends list. I have never seen them in person, and only interacted with them on the internet, that don't mean they are bogus friends.

 

You can't compare randomly generating a string of characters with discovering a TB/Coin. The "secret" code that you find on a trackable is there so you don't go discovering TBs without actually seeing them.

If you think it's OK to discover TBs without seeing them then GS might just do away with tracking numbers all together. Just list TB, add a checkbox and an option to "log 'm all".

Why not log Earthcaches/virtuals without answering questions? While we're at it just log everything just from home without getting outside?

 

It's all about ethics.

 

Now you compare travelbugs with geocaches.

[+on4bam]

Now you compare travelbugs with geocaches.

 

Yup, and the ethics involved, too bad you don't get it.

[+Manville Possum]

Now you compare travelbugs with geocaches.

 

Yup, and the ethics involved, too bad you don't get it.

 

And you question my ethics. If I display the tracking numbers to my private property in it's gallery with "Virtual discoveries permitted" that is my choice. If you suggest that we must all enjoy our TB's like you do or its cheating, I don't agree with your ethics.

[+Twentse Mug]

Is there an official Discover Etiquette for Travel Bugs?

[+Mudfrog]

Now you compare travelbugs with geocaches.

 

Yup, and the ethics involved, too bad you don't get it.

 

And you question my ethics. If I display the tracking numbers to my private property in it's gallery with "Virtual discoveries permitted" that is my choice. If you suggest that we must all enjoy our TB's like you do or its cheating, I don't agree with your ethics.

 

Your property but no, i don't agree that this is a good thing to do. If anything, it helps to encourage false logging. I'm guessing that the point of posting your TB numbers is to generate lots of logs but i sure don't see what is so exciting about doing that.

 

Whatever happened to the days when travelbugs were put out to travel, to have a goal, to generate fun logs along the way, and maybe even have a few pictures come in of other cachers holding the bug. Those are fun reads. I sure don't want to read something like "discovered virtually online".

[+Manville Possum]

Now you compare travelbugs with geocaches.

 

Yup, and the ethics involved, too bad you don't get it.

 

And you question my ethics. If I display the tracking numbers to my private property in it's gallery with "Virtual discoveries permitted" that is my choice. If you suggest that we must all enjoy our TB's like you do or its cheating, I don't agree with your ethics.

 

Whatever happened to the days when travelbugs were put out to travel, to have a goal, to generate fun logs along the way, and maybe even have a few pictures come in of other cachers holding the bug. Those are fun reads. I sure don't want to read something like "discovered virtually online".

 

Mine disappeared, like 99% of the ones released do. I don't even collect them anymore, so the only way for me to enjoy them is to virtually share a few that I own. Many of my others I have locked to keep the auto bot logs away. That's more simple than deleting bogus logs and complaining about them here in the forums.

[+vw_k]

Is there an official Discover Etiquette for Travel Bugs?

 

I don't know about "official" but it's considered the done thing to only log trackables if you have seen them in person, such as in a cache or at an event. To log a trackable without ever seeing it because you've somehow guessed/randomly generated the number is like looking at the wikipedia page for Brad Pitt then claiming you've met him!

 

When I purchased my trackables with real money and released them into the real world my understanding was that the only people who would log then would have really seen them.

 

We might as well randomly try a load of GC codes and log cache finds without ever leaving the computer.

[+The A-Team]

Is there an official Discover Etiquette for Travel Bugs?

While not forbidden, virtual discoveries are officially "discouraged".

 

4.5. Dealing with Bogus Trackable Logs

Trackables "discovered" without the logger physically interacting with them is discouraged by Geocaching.com.

 

...and that's a good thing. If virtual discoveries were to be considered acceptable, what's to stop someone from generating a list of all possible trackable codes and having everyone just log all of those? You get a million discovers! You get a million discovers! Everyone gets a million discovers!! It would make a mockery of the point of trackables: tracking an object from cache to cache.

 

I honestly believe challenge caches are at least a factor in triggering an increase in virtual trackable logging, if not the primary factor. It'll be interesting to see what comes of challenge caches and - if the trackable challenge caches are all archived - whether the virtual trackable logging decreases.

 

Edit: I just looked at the challenge cache logged by the alleged cheater. A challenge cache in Germany that requires logging trackables? I can't help but wonder how many of the finders didn't use questionable logging practices...

Edited January 6, 2016 by The A-Team

[+Twentse Mug]

...and that's a good thing. If virtual discoveries were to be considered acceptable, what's to stop someone from generating a list of all possible trackable codes and having everyone just log all of those? You get a million discovers! You get a million discovers! Everyone gets a million discovers!!

 

so what?

 

It would make a mockery of the point of trackables: tracking an object from cache to cache.

 

discoverlogs have nothing to do with the voyage.

[+on4bam]

discoverlogs have nothing to do with the voyage.

 

It's called "discovering a trackable" not discovering a code. Guessing/bruteforcing is not discovering.

[+The A-Team]

It would make a mockery of the point of trackables: tracking an object from cache to cache.

discoverlogs have nothing to do with the voyage.

Discover logs have everything to do with the voyage. They're a record of where and when a trackable was seen. A virtual discover by it's very nature cannot convey any such information, or really any useful information at all. An in-person discover at least confirms that a trackable still exists, but a virtual one doesn't (see above posts where missing trackables were discovered).

 

As someone who is apparently fine with virtual trackable logging, I'm genuinely curious: why? What benefit(s) do you see for the logger/owner/other cachers from virtual logs? Is it all about the numbers, or is there some other reason I just can't think of?

[+Crusso]

Hi Christopher,

 

Thanks for writing in to us about this. We have contacted Luco235 and warned him that this behavior is not acceptable. Virtual logging of trackables is a violation of the Geocaching.com Terms of Use. Please feel free to delete any logs by this person on your trackables, and let me know if you notice the practice continue.

 

All the best,

 

Alex

Community Manager

[+rascel]

Thank you Alex. I was wondering about all the finds, including 1 coin of my own that I decided to keep myself. I know that one was not possible. All the lost coins found on the same day was way too good to be true!

[+Crusso]

But of course he hadn't removed the logs and doesn't look like he has any inclination of doing so....

Can geocaching invalidate those logs?

[+Manville Possum]

Hi Christopher,

 

Thanks for writing in to us about this. We have contacted Luco235 and warned him that this behavior is not acceptable. Virtual logging of trackables is a violation of the Geocaching.com Terms of Use. Please feel free to delete any logs by this person on your trackables, and let me know if you notice the practice continue.

 

All the best,

 

Alex

Community Manager

 

Very interesting. Why does the Help Center state differently, or are you just providing false information to suit your own agenda?

[Keystone]

CRusso accurately copied the reply he received from Geocaching HQ, although it might have been helpful to use the "quote" feature in the forum post.

 

Nothing in the response from Alex at HQ is inconsistent with the Help Center article to which you've linked.

[+Manville Possum]

CRusso accurately copied the reply he received from Geocaching HQ, although it might have been helpful to use the "quote" feature in the forum post.

 

Nothing in the response from Alex at HQ is inconsistent with the Help Center article to which you've linked.

 

So virtual logging trackables is against the TOU?

[+Manville Possum]

A cacher has just logged over 1800! USA Geocoins today from all over the country on the same day.. Interesting that the cacher simultaneously found three different coins of mine, each of which has been lost for several years and one that I actually have never released. How does that work? Software manipulation?

I messaged him and was told he "made a mistake entering numbers" and if I disagreed I could delete the log.

 

Luco235 is the user.

 

Did this same user also post fake finds on your pocket cache ?

 

Wait, it was this TB was'nt it? TB29B

 

Looks like you own one of the last few traveling caches/TB's allowed here on this site. I'm guessing it takes lot's of "bogus" finds.

 

There is a difference between your "Special" thingy and the rest of us users TB's... I guess. Hopefully I can discover it in person one day.

Edited January 7, 2016 by Manville Possum

[+The A-Team]

So virtual logging trackables is against the TOU?

IANAL, but I took a look through the ToU and can't find anything in there that would cover virtual logging (or bogus logging of any kind, for that matter). The closest thing is:

You agree not to:

...

xvii.Violate any of the guidelines or policies associated with our services.

...but that would seem to fall back to the article I linked to earlier, which says virtual trackable logging is discouraged, not prohibited.

 

BTW, it looks like the majority of the bogus logs from Luco235 on the USA Geocoins have been deleted. Their profile only shows 17 of those now, though some of those are still from their round of bogus logging on January 6th.

[+Manville Possum]

So virtual logging trackables is against the TOU?

IANAL, but I took a look through the ToU and can't find anything in there that would cover virtual logging (or bogus logging of any kind, for that matter). The closest thing is:

You agree not to:

...

xvii.Violate any of the guidelines or policies associated with our services.

...but that would seem to fall back to the article I linked to earlier, which says virtual trackable logging is discouraged, not prohibited.

 

BTW, it looks like the majority of the bogus logs from Luco235 on the USA Geocoins have been deleted. Their profile only shows 17 of those now, though some of those are still from their round of bogus logging on January 6th.

 

I think that you and I could agree that sharing trackables that we own for friends and others to virtually discover falls within the geocaching is a silly little game and we as geocachers enjoy it. As for running some software program to log random people's private property as a discovery is no the same thing as discovering shared trackables on the geocaching site or facebook/social media.

 

Trackables that I don't want discovered are locked to prevent this, we as owners have this option.

 

The OP here owns one of those pocket caches that appears to show up at events and is passed on to select members here, and not in the spirit of a traveling geocache. They are playing by their own rules, like the auto bot loggers. I bet that Luco235 virtually logged a discovery on the pocket cache TB, and it upset the owner enough to post this thread?

[+Twentse Mug]

It would make a mockery of the point of trackables: tracking an object from cache to cache.

discoverlogs have nothing to do with the voyage.

 

Discover logs have everything to do with the voyage. They're a record of where and when a trackable was seen.

 

Did I miss something? Since when do discoverlogs have location and coordinates?

[+The A-Team]

It would make a mockery of the point of trackables: tracking an object from cache to cache.

discoverlogs have nothing to do with the voyage.

Discover logs have everything to do with the voyage. They're a record of where and when a trackable was seen.

Did I miss something? Since when do discoverlogs have location and coordinates?

I didn't say anything about coordinates.

 

In my experience, most discover logs give at least a basic description of where the trackable was discovered. For example, here are just a few from my personal trackable name tag:

"Saw it at the Christmas Cheer event, nice to meet you."

"Discovered at the Event Cache: GIFF - Afternoon Matinee! - GC65ARH - hosted by Landsharkz. Thank you for sharing."

"Discovered it at the 2015 Block Party in Seattle. Thank you for sharing."

 

...and here are some from my car trackable:

"Heading towards Langford Costco on the Highway overpass 8)"

"My daughter and I were out enjoying a girl's day. Spotted you in Langford after getting our hair and nails done. Now we are off to do some caching. Happy New Year!"

"Nice vw. Spotted you on the bc ferries headed to Vancouver. Enjoy the cache on the main land."

 

Whenever I discover a trackable, I always indicate where I saw it. If it was at a cache or caching event, I'll also list the GC code to more specifically indicate where I saw it.

[+The A-Team]

I think that you and I could agree that sharing trackables that we own for friends and others to virtually discover falls within the geocaching is a silly little game and we as geocachers enjoy it.

I really can't agree with you, because I've always been taught that you don't share the trackable code with anyone. I've never knowingly provided the code for any of my trackables to allow anyone to virtually log them, and don't foresee ever doing so.

 

As for running some software program to log random people's private property as a discovery is no the same thing as discovering shared trackables on the geocaching site or facebook/social media.

In neither case has the person actually discovered the physical trackable. In both cases, they're submitting a log online after having retrieved a code from a source other than the trackable itself. Both scenarios go against the intended use of the discover log.

 

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. My personal view is that no virtual logging is acceptable, and I treat my trackables accordingly. I can't do anything about how others want to deal with their own trackables, though.

[+Manville Possum]

I think that you and I could agree that sharing trackables that we own for friends and others to virtually discover falls within the geocaching is a silly little game and we as geocachers enjoy it.

I really can't agree with you, because I've always been taught that you don't share the trackable code with anyone. I've never knowingly provided the code for any of my trackables to allow anyone to virtually log them, and don't foresee ever doing so.

 

As for running some software program to log random people's private property as a discovery is no the same thing as discovering shared trackables on the geocaching site or facebook/social media.

In neither case has the person actually discovered the physical trackable. In both cases, they're submitting a log online after having retrieved a code from a source other than the trackable itself. Both scenarios go against the intended use of the discover log.

 

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. My personal view is that no virtual logging is acceptable, and I treat my trackables accordingly. I can't do anything about how others want to deal with their own trackables, though.

 

I never understood visiting our own Waymarks, but many Waymarkers do.

 

I only allow virtual discoveries on a few of my geocoins, and I don't discover very many either, mostly just those from geocachers on my friends list.

 

I do enjoy looking at the icons of trackables on my list, kinda like some geocachers enjoy collecting souvenirs I guess. I just get a image on my stats page.

[+Crusso]

"

The OP here owns one of those pocket caches that appears to show up at events and is passed on to select members here, and not in the spirit of a traveling geocache. They are playing by their own rules, like the auto bot loggers. I bet that Luco235 virtually logged a discovery on the pocket cache TB, and it upset the op."

 

And you would be wrong.

 

My traveling cache abides by the rules GS set when it was released originally.

GS itself has stated so. It occasionally visits events. GS says that is fine. I've even asked that it not. Sounds like YOU are the one that has a problem with this. What luco235 did was against GS guidelines and frankly, a really pussy way of inflating ones count.

[+Manville Possum]

"

The OP here owns one of those pocket caches that appears to show up at events and is passed on to select members here, and not in the spirit of a traveling geocache. They are playing by their own rules, like the auto bot loggers. I bet that Luco235 virtually logged a discovery on the pocket cache TB, and it upset the op."

 

And you would be wrong.

 

My traveling cache abides by the rules GS set when it was released originally.

GS itself has stated so. It occasionally visits events. GS says that is fine. I've even asked that it not. Sounds like YOU are the one that has a problem with this. What luco235 did was against GS guidelines and frankly, a really pussy way of inflating ones count.

 

That's interesting.

[+Crusso]

Another cheater -

 

kinderarzt

 

Using an auto logger.

[+justintim1999]

It would make a mockery of the point of trackables: tracking an object from cache to cache.

discoverlogs have nothing to do with the voyage.

Discover logs have everything to do with the voyage. They're a record of where and when a trackable was seen. A virtual discover by it's very nature cannot convey any such information, or really any useful information at all. An in-person discover at least confirms that a trackable still exists, but a virtual one doesn't (see above posts where missing trackables were discovered).

 

As someone who is apparently fine with virtual trackable logging, I'm genuinely curious: why? What benefit(s) do you see for the logger/owner/other cachers from virtual logs? Is it all about the numbers, or is there some other reason I just can't think of?

 

I'm someone who is apparently fine with virtual trackable logging and I'll give you two reasons why. 1. If someone has the tracking code to one of my travel bugs and all they do is discover it. Thank you. 2. My doctor said I have to get my blood pressure down to under 230/110. Until Groundspeak incorporates a tool that lets me hide Discovery and Visited logs, I'm not going to spend one second worrying about something I have no control over...... Deep breath in....Let it out.

[+Crusso]

It would make a mockery of the point of trackables: tracking an object from cache to cache.

discoverlogs have nothing to do with the voyage.

Discover logs have everything to do with the voyage. They're a record of where and when a trackable was seen. A virtual discover by it's very nature cannot convey any such information, or really any useful information at all. An in-person discover at least confirms that a trackable still exists, but a virtual one doesn't (see above posts where missing trackables were discovered).

 

As someone who is apparently fine with virtual trackable logging, I'm genuinely curious: why? What benefit(s) do you see for the logger/owner/other cachers from virtual logs? Is it all about the numbers, or is there some other reason I just can't think of?

 

I'm someone who is apparently fine with virtual trackable logging and I'll give you two reasons why. 1. If someone has the tracking code to one of my travel bugs and all they do is discover it. Thank you. 2. My doctor said I have to get my blood pressure down to under 230/110. Until Groundspeak incorporates a tool that lets me hide Discovery and Visited logs, I'm not going to spend one second worrying about something I have no control over...... Deep breath in....Let it out.

 

One of the reasons, particularly on mine, is that I have a TB that I use personally to record MY movements. I drop it in every event I visit and then recapture it thus making a virtual map of my travels. Now I have logs on it from people that have never even encountered it because they want to sit in thier parents basement and play captain keyboard.

It's like sending junk mail to someone's house just to see if I could fill up your mailbox.

Edited January 8, 2016 by Crusso

[+Manville Possum]

It would make a mockery of the point of trackables: tracking an object from cache to cache.

discoverlogs have nothing to do with the voyage.

Discover logs have everything to do with the voyage. They're a record of where and when a trackable was seen. A virtual discover by it's very nature cannot convey any such information, or really any useful information at all. An in-person discover at least confirms that a trackable still exists, but a virtual one doesn't (see above posts where missing trackables were discovered).

 

As someone who is apparently fine with virtual trackable logging, I'm genuinely curious: why? What benefit(s) do you see for the logger/owner/other cachers from virtual logs? Is it all about the numbers, or is there some other reason I just can't think of?

 

I'm someone who is apparently fine with virtual trackable logging and I'll give you two reasons why. 1. If someone has the tracking code to one of my travel bugs and all they do is discover it. Thank you. 2. My doctor said I have to get my blood pressure down to under 230/110. Until Groundspeak incorporates a tool that lets me hide Discovery and Visited logs, I'm not going to spend one second worrying about something I have no control over...... Deep breath in....Let it out.

 

One of the reasons, particularly on mine, is that I have a TB that I use personally to record MY movements. I drop it in every event I visit and then recapture it thus making a virtual map of my travels. Now I have logs on it from people that have never even encountered it because they want to sit in thier parents basement and play captain keyboard.

It's like sending junk mail to someone's house just to see if I could fill up your mailbox.

 

I also have a few geocoins in my inventory that I use for the same purpose. My Found it, LE DNF, a Earthcache, and others. None ever get the virtual discovery logs. I do have one that has been logged by two guys from Europe. I just don't have the same problem.