Rules....rules....and more rules for hiding

[+NatiBuckeye]

There is an entire series in Mason Ohio called Cache In Eat out, every cache is at a restaurant described as a favorite.

[+hzoi]

There is an entire series in Mason Ohio called Cache In Eat out, every cache is at a restaurant described as a favorite.

Looks like they were hidden in 2005, prior to the stricter interpretation of the guidelines. Doubt they'd be published as is today.

[Pup Patrol]

There is an entire series in Mason Ohio called Cache In Eat out, every cache is at a restaurant described as a favorite.

 

Once again......

 

Geocache Listing Requirements / Guidelines

Last Updated: February 17, 2015

 

http://www.geocaching.com/about/guidelines.aspx

 

Please be advised that there is no precedent for placing geocaches.

 

This means that the past publication of a similar geocache in and of itself is not a valid justification for the publication of a new geocache. If a geocache has been published and violates any guidelines listed below, you are encouraged to report it.

 

However, if the geocache was placed prior to the date when a guideline was issued or updated, the geocache is likely to be grandfathered and allowed to stand as is.

 

B.

[+J Grouchy]

There is an entire series in Mason Ohio called Cache In Eat out, every cache is at a restaurant described as a favorite.

 

Once again......

 

Geocache Listing Requirements / Guidelines

Last Updated: February 17, 2015

 

http://www.geocaching.com/about/guidelines.aspx

 

Please be advised that there is no precedent for placing geocaches.

 

This means that the past publication of a similar geocache in and of itself is not a valid justification for the publication of a new geocache. If a geocache has been published and violates any guidelines listed below, you are encouraged to report it.

 

However, if the geocache was placed prior to the date when a guideline was issued or updated, the geocache is likely to be grandfathered and allowed to stand as is.

 

B.

 

The "no precedent" statement is a cop-out. It's their way of saying they don't have to be consistent in the review and application of the guidelines.

[+niraD]

The "no precedent" statement is a cop-out. It's their way of saying they don't have to be consistent in the review and application of the guidelines.

Or that they can change the guidelines over time, grandfathering caches that no longer meet the new guidelines.

 

Or that they can change the interpretation/enforcement of the guidelines over time, grandfathering caches that no longer meet the current interpretation/enforcement.

 

Or that they can allow a cache when there are extenuating circumstances that might not be obvious to a casual observer.

 

Or that they can allow a cache to remain when a reviewer misses something, without being obligated to allow the same thing everywhere else.

 

Or...

[+JL_HSTRE]

I think there is a difference between an endorsement in the description and a title that alludes to (but doesn't directly mention) the business.

[+BAMBOOZLE]

 

Same here...but that's beside the point, really. I didn't see anything the OP's description that would have made it any less publishable than the myriad other much more commercial caches that get published on a near-daily basis.

 

I agree here.....we have found dozens if not hundreds that have led us to interesting businesses, I always try to visit a business, especially one who has granted permission for a cache, and hopefully, buy something.

IMO I think the reviewer may be too picky and I understand how the OP must feel...it must wear on you a bit to know every cache you submit is going to be rejected for one thing or another. The first place to start is to have a heart to heart conversation with your reviewer. A few years ago the game was changing and I wasn't and my caches weren't getting approved quickly....once I realized what my reviewer was looking for and complied most of my caches get approved in hours.

Edited December 30, 2015 by BAMBOOZLE

[+hzoi]

On a side note, I saw this on a cache published in my area recently.

 

Magnetic cache located at a favorite pitstop for sweet breads. (Beware of car-washing muggles).

 

The employees of this bakery surprised me and my husband with a small cake the morning of our wedding.

 

Normally I wouldn't pay much attention, but this discussion was fresh in my head when the email popped.

[+Path Pacer]

I appreciate if a cache description tells me why the cache got hidden - that helps considerably in deciding whether I want to go there.

For me the location of a cache and what can be encountered there is an integral part of the cache. The container and the hideout are the least important for me.

 

I know the rules and do not want to argue about them. In my opinion however the reason why someone hides a cache at some place is very closely related to the cache itself.

Agreed. I never understood the anti-business rule anyway. What does it matter if you say you like a nearby restaurant? That's probably why you put the cache there in the first place. So what if you tell others in the cache description? Does it somehow lessen the geocaching experience?

 

But back to the OP's point, yes, I can see how the somewhat arbitrary application of the rules can be discouraging. You find a cache you like, try to do something similar somewhere else, and suddenly it's no-go.

[+Team Microdot]

Agreed. I never understood the anti-business rule anyway. What does it matter if you say you like a nearby restaurant? That's probably why you put the cache there in the first place. So what if you tell others in the cache description? Does it somehow lessen the geocaching experience?

 

Probably not.

 

If you just tossed a cache out in the parking lot because you happened to be visiting the restaurant, the geocaching experience probably can't be lessened any more already.

[jholly]

Agreed. I never understood the anti-business rule anyway. What does it matter if you say you like a nearby restaurant? That's probably why you put the cache there in the first place. So what if you tell others in the cache description? Does it somehow lessen the geocaching experience?

 

If there were no restrictions then a business owner could use GS for advertisement purposes. Just imagine all the film cans that would bring you to your local adult toy shop or your local biker dive.

[+noncentric]

I'm guessing the reviewer took offense to this part of the cache description "Since I can't mention names all I can say is that the menu of drinks made of hoppes, malt and barley are second to none on the island." The bolded portion of that sentence sounds a bit passive-aggressive and wasn't really necessary.

 

The OP eventually got the cache published within a day of this thread starting: coord.info/GC68N42

[+J Grouchy]

I'm guessing the reviewer took offense to this part of the cache description "Since I can't mention names all I can say is that the menu of drinks made of hoppes, malt and barley are second to none on the island." The bolded portion of that sentence sounds a bit passive-aggressive and wasn't really necessary.

 

The OP eventually got the cache published within a day of this thread starting: coord.info/GC68N42

 

That's the weakest example of passive-aggressiveness I've ever seen. If anyone takes offense to that, sounds like they may have issues.

[+Touchstone]

I'm guessing the reviewer took offense to this part of the cache description "Since I can't mention names all I can say is that the menu of drinks made of hoppes, malt and barley are second to none on the island." The bolded portion of that sentence sounds a bit passive-aggressive and wasn't really necessary.

 

The OP eventually got the cache published within a day of this thread starting: coord.info/GC68N42

 

That's the weakest example of passive-aggressiveness I've ever seen. If anyone takes offense to that, sounds like they may have issues.

"The beer that must not be named". Sounds like another Potter theme cache.

[Luckless]

People , people, people....

There are only two rules in geocaching...

1. The reviewer is always right.

2. See rule number 1.

 

Truthfully the reviewer usually has the last say about whether or not to publish a cache, that's just the way it is. It's up to them how they interpret the rules pertaining to YOUR cache. Sure some caches will slip through, but the reviewers are doing the best they can. A reviewer will usually tell you what rule made them reject your cache. You can always take your case to upper management if you disagree or if you see other caches that need attention because they violate the rules.

[+Twentse Mug]

What you can do is combine a cache with a travelbug. Give the travelbug the name of the restaurant.

[+J Grouchy]

What you can do is combine a cache with a travelbug. Give the travelbug the name of the restaurant.

 

Yes. In the former, it's free with all sorts of vague restrictions and in the latter, you pay and someone steals it within a week.

[+Twentse Mug]

What you can do is combine a cache with a travelbug. Give the travelbug the name of the restaurant.

 

Yes. In the former, it's free with all sorts of vague restrictions and in the latter, you pay and someone steals it within a week.

 

You can attach the tag to the wall or door of the restaurant. Or carve the code in a stone on the doorstep. Make it very solid so no one will steal it.

[+narcissa]

It strikes me as a little odd that you would mix a day of "dirty" geocaching with visiting shops and cafes. When I'm out for a day of urban caching I wear the old stained/torn clothes and old tenny shoes with laces full of sandspurs. I'm barely fit to be seen in a Wally's BEFORE I get filthy! Afterward I'm relegated to fast food drive-thrus. I guess it's a different story if you're going out shopping/dining with a random P&G in-between.

 

I don't visit shops and cafes to impress people, I visit them because I'd like to peruse the shop or because I'm hungry. If I'm not welcome because I am a bit sweaty or there is some mud on my pants, I'm certainly not interested in going at any other time. Small businesses generally appreciate customers who take a moment to drop by, even if they're wearing bandanas and hiking boots. Nobody's talking about shopping on 5th avenue here.

[+on4bam]

Many café's and eateries around here cater for hikers/bikers. Especially in summer they tend to have a large outdoor area. Most have a lot of different beers (this is Belgium after all) and and all kinds of icecream and pancakes (for the US readers, that's crepes, not the thick small "stack" types). What you're wearing is no issue.

[+briansnat]

People , people, people....

There are only two rules in geocaching...

1. The reviewer is always right.

2. See rule number 1.

 

Truthfully the reviewer usually has the last say about whether or not to publish a cache, that's just the way it is. It's up to them how they interpret the rules pertaining to YOUR cache. Sure some caches will slip through, but the reviewers are doing the best they can. A reviewer will usually tell you what rule made them reject your cache. You can always take your case to upper management if you disagree or if you see other caches that need attention because they violate the rules.

 

Reviewers are not always right, which is why there is an appeals process. If any cache owner believes that the reviewer is misinterpreting or misapplying a guideline, then appeal. Appeals will overrule a reviewer when warranted.

[+mockkkk]

For what it's worth, I live in the same area as the OP. Because I saw this thread, I brought up google maps and was able to figure out which business he was talking about.

 

However, if the hide had been placed with his original text, guess what? I still would have had to bring up google maps and figure out which business he was talking about. Or search for it once I got there in person.

 

I think as long as you don't specifically name the establishment- and maybe if you skip the promotional-speak (i.e. "best on the island...", etc) than you should be in the clear.

 

Does placing a cache on the shore near a lighthouse and saying that the "lighthouse offers the best views on the island, try it out while you're caching" violate the terms if you have to pay to enter the lighthouse?

 

I've seen lots of caches near theaters and restaurants- chains, mind you...not stand-alone small-businesses- that reference the business nearby. I think you should be able to *reference* them- if not name them directly. I also think you should be able to state why the place is significant to you; for example "I like coming here after going caching and grabbing a burger" doesn't seem to me to be a huge problem.

 

I think if you cross into "Establishment X has the BEST drinks" or are making objective, solicitory statements about the place, that might be off limits.

 

But to limit cache placement over something like this is silly. This seems to be a unique place (I'm sure as hell going to try it out now) and the location is significant to the CO.

 

I guess beyond all my blabbing above, I would suggest to the CO: Definitely continue to hide caches near places that are significant to you. Just be careful about specifically referencing the services they offer.

 

(If I had my way, the rule would be that if you're promoting a small business or non-chain restaurant/store, go ahead...Chain promotion should be off limits. But alas, I don't make the rules.)

[+NYPaddleCacher]

(If I had my way, the rule would be that if you're promoting a small business or non-chain restaurant/store, go ahead...Chain promotion should be off limits. But alas, I don't make the rules.)

 

Rather than create an exhaustive list of what is allowed and what isn't the guideline reads:

 

 

Cache listings perceived as commercial will not be published. A commercial cache listing has one or more of the following characteristics:

 

It has overtones of advertising, marketing or promotion.

It suggests or requires that the finder go inside a business, interact with employees and/or purchase a product or service.

It contains links to businesses, agencies, commercial advertisers, charities, or political or social agendas.

It contains the logo of a business or organization, including non-profit organizations.

It contains the name of a business or commercial product.

 

The key word in all that is "perceived". If the cache listing gives the perception that it's being placed with commercial intent (or to support an agenda) it won't be published. Typically that boils down to the language used in the cache description and reviewers might ask remove a sentence or change the wording a bit so that the perception is doesn't exist.

 

 

[+Sapience Trek]

(If I had my way, the rule would be that if you're promoting a small business or non-chain restaurant/store, go ahead...Chain promotion should be off limits. But alas, I don't make the rules.)

 

Who is to define a small business? What's a chain? My family used to have a gourmet food store. Then we had 4 in the same area. Then we had 7 across a couple states. Is it still a small business? Is it a chain?

 

Now my dad has a bakery. Should I be able to post about how great McDuffies short bread is, and that they have the best sandwiches, stop in and say hi to dad after you find the parking lot cache, and pick up some shortbread and a pot pie while you are there?

 

I really don't want to see this sort of thing.

 

As a reviewer, I don't want to have to judge whether a business or small enough to allow advertisements and promotions, or if the product mention is casual and ok, or overly promotional. Having a zero tolerance makes the review process and consistency easier. We'll never get 100% consistency in review of what is acceptable, because we are human, and there are judgement calls.