Rules....rules....and more rules for hiding

[+AstroDadNY]

I am pretty new to caching. 99 finds and 5 hides. Each time I hide I am more confused than the last on the rules and how they are interpreted. My mind tells me that all Administrators are doing the best they can and they are volunteering because they love and want to protect the game. This post in no way is meant to insult or point fingers at Admins and say they are doing a bad job. It is a thankless job and one that is probably pretty time consuming and stressful.

 

I have had problems hiding caches. I have found some of the best caches where I live. Hard caches, easy ones, puzzles etc. People always remind me it is not the number of caches you find but the quality of the caches. So I take each cache that I have found and I remember the descriptions, how they are hidden, and know that if these caches violated the rules that they would be archived. Why? Because as rules change, so does the responsibility of the admins to archive those caches that we would all think should be grandfathered in. An example of this would be in fear of terrorism. Caches at airports are a no brain clear cut no-no post 9/11. Yet there are literally dozens of caches at airports around me.

 

Since I am taking flying lessons, I thought it would be cool to do a series of caches at airfields I am flying to/from. We are talking about tiny airfields that serve private pilots and some corporate jets. There are no passenger terminals, no real security etc. When I tried to place a cache at my aviation school. This is a school that is located at the airport, but is on the outside of the airport. There is also a air-power museum there in which normal people walk around the airfield where all the planes are parked. My cache was rejected because of Airport Security rules. I did have explicit permission from the aviation school to place a cache on their property and said so in the cache submission. In addition to this the cache was outside the airport security fence, and as close to the road as possible. 10 ft across the road is a cemetery. I could easily have put it in the grass on the outside of the fence of the cemetery. The admin declared the cache invalid because of the risk. However the risk was no greater 10 ft away in the grass than on the other side of the road. The kicker, there are four caches in closer proximity and could be viewed as a greater threat. They are active and approved caches.

 

In this case I simply replied and stated my case and the cache was approved. It was deemed that there was no risk at all and should have been accepted. Ok Cool

 

Today I placed a new cache. I put in the description the following:

 

A day of caching is like heaven for most of us. We love bundling up (it is winter when this was placed), walking into the forest, avoiding thorns, ticks, sprained ankles, muggles on bikes etc. All of this to find some plastic or metal bin buried in piles of logs and leaves. When you finish however you need sustenance. So after a long day of caching I was introduced to what has become my favorite after caching place to eat. Since I can't mention names all I can say is that the menu of drinks made of hoppes, malt and barley are second to none on the island. So I went there today and was shocked to find that someone else did not already place a P&G in this location. So search on my friends, you are looking for a bison tube of brown, black and green.

 

In no place do I mention any specific bar or restaurant. In no place to I mention any brand names, any kind of marketing other than it is my personal favorite place. When you look at the coordinates there are multiple places that you can buy a drink with the ingredients listed. The rejection was due to me marketing for a company. In no place did I mention a specific place. The idea was that this cache was simply near a place I like to go after a long day of caching.

 

So why the rejection? What interpretation of the rule states that I am doing something wrong? It is not like I said go to Bernie's Taco house with your fellow cachers and get the fish taco because it rocks. I said after a long day of caching I like to get a bite at MY FAVORITE PLACE.

 

So I wonder how Admins interpret the rules. How Geocaching teaches the admins right from wrong and more importantly what is the policy of fighting rejections. In my local caching group of people with literally tens of thousands of finds and hides they all complain that the admin is a stickler for the rules, so much that nobody gets a cache accepted on the first try because of some perceived rule violation.

 

I just want my caches to be accepted. I don't want to have to try over and over again. It is not like I say Use Garmin GPS, or Eat at Bernie's or try to put a cache at JFK airport in the terminal. Common sense should win out.

[+Sapience Trek]

If I reviewed your cache, I would have said the same thing as the reviewer that did. Pretty much any time you talk about the nearby business, especially when using adjectives such as "favorite", it become an endorsement. People who find your cache will see the nearby business, and can decide on their own whether to enter the business.

 

What does the location, or what they serve, or whether you have marked it as a favorite have to do with the cache? Focus on the cache, the hide, and the commercial free aspects of the location and you'll be fine.

 

Note: I do review in New York, but typically don't review in that part of the state.

[+AstroDadNY]

That is the explanation I was hoping to receive when it was rejected. I understand it but I think it is going way beyond what the rules are there to protect.

 

People create caches all of the time that use names of action heroes, marvel comics, movie names etc and these caches are permitted. I have seen caches with character names from movies. These caches are approved. I have seen caches with names of specific types of food, and drink. I looked at a cache today that had Thor and The Avengers in the title and description.

 

My point is that My favorite place to eat is not the location of the cache. The cache is not Dave and Busters #1 or Applebee's. There is also one for Chili's down the road for where I work and it has Chili's in the name and description. These caches violate the rules because they name the specific franchise that is protected by law. My cache said My favorite place to eat after a day of caching. If we think these are the same things then we have a pretty wide idea of what is considered marketing.

 

There is a subway next to the cache as well. Who knows if my favorite is Subway, or Dave and Busters, or 7 Eleven or the nearby steakhouse. You don't, and either does the Admin. The cache just happens to be near multiple choices for any eating establishment. There is no pre-determined favorite is there. No way to know and hence no way to determine I am pushing for any particular place.

 

Again, this is where being nit picky about the rules and making a judgement based on reality differs. My favorite food is sushi. If I used my favorite Sushi restaurant and there was one sushi place near by named Sushi Palace it would be different.

 

It is common sense. I like to eat at my favorite place to eat after caching does not dictate a specific place. Everyone likes to eat at their favorite place. My favorite GPS is Garmin. If I put that in my cache I expect it to be denied. If I say I like using a GPS then I expect it would be fine. Again what are we trying to protect here in this case? The fact that I have a favorite place to eat or the chance that someone might assume the place i like to eat is the place closest to GZ for the cache.

 

 

If I reviewed your cache, I would have said the same thing as the reviewer that did. Pretty much any time you talk about the nearby business, especially when using adjectives such as "favorite", it become an endorsement. People who find your cache will see the nearby business, and can decide on their own whether to enter the business.

 

What does the location, or what they serve, or whether you have marked it as a favorite have to do with the cache? Focus on the cache, the hide, and the commercial free aspects of the location and you'll be fine.

 

Note: I do review in New York, but typically don't review in that part of the state.

[+Touchstone]

Sounds like you really have your heart set on promoting your favorite place to eat. Maybe the following Help Center

article will help you understand the Guideline issue a bit better:

 

Does my geocache meet the Commercial Guidelines?

 

Maybe a blog would be a better place to promote your favorite restaurants rather than a Listing page.

[+AstroDadNY]

Sorry I brought it up.

 

The rules leave way too much to the imagination. You learn by playing the game. You see caches that break the rules and you don't think that following the lead and doing the same kind of cache will suddenly be illegal. It is far easier to correct the problem by stopping new violations than cleaning up the rule violators.

 

It is a game. I will adjust the cache name and make them generic. Generic Cache #1 - 100. Tall Tree #1, Short Rotting Stump #4. Real original stuff.

[cezanne]

What does the location, or what they serve, or whether you have marked it as a favorite have to do with the cache? Focus on the cache, the hide, and the commercial free aspects of the location and you'll be fine.

 

I appreciate if a cache description tells me why the cache got hidden - that helps considerably in deciding whether I want to go there.

For me the location of a cache and what can be encountered there is an integral part of the cache. The container and the hideout are the least important for me.

 

I know the rules and do not want to argue about them. In my opinion however the reason why someone hides a cache at some place is very closely related to the cache itself.

[+geodarts]

 

It is a game. I will adjust the cache name and make them generic. Generic Cache #1 - 100. Tall Tree #1, Short Rotting Stump #4. Real original stuff.

 

I have seen plenty of caches that focus on the ingredients that are used at the establishment you enjoy or are placed near similar businesses. Some are series dedicated to pubs and breweries in a specific area. Although I enjoy the products that these places offer, I rarely stop for the caches because they seem like just another park and grab smiley. But I once went out of my way for a cache near a much larger brewery - associated with a product I do not particularly like - because it was called "Beer Makes You Smarter." While the cache itself was not a great hide, and the location was not that inspiring, I thought that its title might inspire a fun log.

 

So certainly there is room for creativity that is somewhere between identifying (and by implication recommending) a spot as your favorite and a generic name that is of no interest.

Edited December 27, 2015 by geodarts

[+on4bam]

Seems this shows we need less rules. As for airports, I did a few just next to a (commercial) airport's fence. The caches were at spots where planespotters come to photograph airplanes. There's also one (TB hotel) we did across the road from a (international)terminal.

I did one where I had to go up the tower and ask the ATC for the box. Our son holds a CPL and we sometimes make local trips to small airfields, it would be nice if there were more caches close to these fields.

 

To the extreme:

There should only be two rules: Keep a distance from another cache and if it's OK for the owner of the property where a cache is hidden then it's OK.

[+Team Microdot]

Since I can't mention names all I can say is that the menu of drinks made of hoppes, malt and barley are second to none on the island. So I went there today and was shocked to find that someone else did not already place a P&G in this location.

 

This sounds to me like quite a specific description. It sounds like you placed a cache right outside your favourite place for after caching sustenance. You state that the drinks in there are second to none on the island which could be interpreted as you stating that they are the best on the island - which is marketing speak.

 

I can understand why the reviewer would reject this cache with this narrative in place.

 

Another way to look at it, given what you've told us so far, is that the establishment is the only reason you placed the cache here.

 

For me personally, there would have to be something really rather special / compelling about the cache location that I would fight for a park-and-grab in a parking lot where the only redeeming feature was that the business next to GZ served nice beer.

[+TopShelfRob]

To me a recommendation of a great place to eat near a cache location isn't an advertising endorsement, it's simply interesting flavor that adds to the enjoyment of caching. I guess everyone would be happier if instead of placing a hide near a favorite place to eat and drink, you just threw a film can under a lamppost and posted a boring cut-and-paste description. At least it wouldn't offend anybody.

[+on4bam]

To me a recommendation of a great place to eat near a cache location isn't an advertising endorsement, it's simply interesting flavor that adds to the enjoyment of caching.

 

Same here, on another form it was even suggested that for quality caches (mostly longer multis) people would list places to eat/drink on or near the route taken. Our normal caching days start before noon and end at sunset (or 19-20 in summer) and we take an afternoon break for icecream in summer or pancake/cake/waffles in winter. It's good to know there's at least something along the way to do just that. We plan our day so we are near such a place between 2 and 3:30 in the afternoon. Having a "food nearby" attribute helps but is not enough. Mentioning that there's a place for a break between WP7 and WP8 is a great help. I sometimes mention these places in my logs.

 

I guess everyone would be happier if instead of placing a hide near a favorite place to eat and drink, you just threw a film can under a lamppost and posted a boring cut-and-paste description. At least it wouldn't offend anybody.

 

Yup. That seems to be the only kind of "caches" that have no problems being published

[+JL_HSTRE]

Need to find a good restaurant near your caching route? There's an app for that.

 

Get creative with your cache names and skip the endorsement text.

[+tallglenn]

When I placed my first caches (a decade ago), I was advised by the local cachers to keep the description as simple as possible, and soon discovered it was good advice. One of the old-timers used "Be safe & have fun" for all of his descriptions. In all honesty, when I have loaded up 5000 waypoints and I'm on my bike geocaching downtown, I do NOT read every description! I have the cache names set up to include size, type and D/T e.g. TM22 for a traditional micro, D/T 2/2. If I've been at GZ a few minutes or need to deflect muggles, I will check for hints/previous logs. Rarely do I ever check the description. So no need to pour your heart and soul into the description only to be rejected for technicalities or ignored by finders. If someone comments about the location in their find log, you can always respond and tell them how special the location is to you. Perhaps the cache description is not the best venue for personality. Cache on!

[+Sapience Trek]

Sorry I brought it up.

 

The rules leave way too much to the imagination. You learn by playing the game. You see caches that break the rules and you don't think that following the lead and doing the same kind of cache will suddenly be illegal. It is far easier to correct the problem by stopping new violations than cleaning up the rule violators.

 

It is a game. I will adjust the cache name and make them generic. Generic Cache #1 - 100. Tall Tree #1, Short Rotting Stump #4. Real original stuff.

 

The guidelines are not black and white. They have to be designed to be open enough to allow creativity, and tight enough to effectively communicate. Because reviewers are human (and dogs), we will never get 100% consistency.

 

There is no reason to make generic boring descriptions. I've hidden 165 caches, and the majority of them focus on the cache experience and location, without even a hint of a business name. But I don't hide parking lot caches, so there are no businesses nearby to tempt me to promote.

[Boomhawr]

Hmmmm. So what about the cache that has this for the hint:

 

If you're hungry, go buy a Big Mac and fries.

Eating the cache may have a metallic taste to it.

 

Pretty much everyone knows where you get a Big Mac from. And, that is where this cache is hidden. Plus, it's telling you to go buy these products, so how does that play into the rules?

[+NYPaddleCacher]

Hmmmm. So what about the cache that has this for the hint:

 

If you're hungry, go buy a Big Mac and fries.

Eating the cache may have a metallic taste to it.

 

Pretty much everyone knows where you get a Big Mac from. And, that is where this cache is hidden. Plus, it's telling you to go buy these products, so how does that play into the rules?

 

It doesn't. Sometimes things slip by the reviewers. Sometimes a cache owner will change the description after a cache has been published. That's why we have the no precedence guideline.

 

 

 

 

[Boomhawr]

ah. ok. Just wondered about that 1 when I saw it.

[+MountainWoods]

How about leaving the business side out of the cache description. Then, after it is approved, post a note log stating that this area is where you stop for your favorite whatsit? I think note logs can mention the fact that there are businesses nearby. They might even be able to mention the business by name, but no need to go that far. Just put what you were thinking about putting into the description in a note log instead. So what if only a few people see it. It's a personal opinion anyway.

[Pup Patrol]

How about leaving the business side out of the cache description. Then, after it is approved, post a note log stating that this area is where you stop for your favorite whatsit? I think note logs can mention the fact that there are businesses nearby. They might even be able to mention the business by name, but no need to go that far. Just put what you were thinking about putting into the description in a note log instead. So what if only a few people see it. It's a personal opinion anyway.

 

That would be a way to hoodwink the Reviewer, in order to get around the commercial guidelines.

 

If there has already been an issue prior to publication, editing after publication isn't any better.

 

Communication with the Reviewer is the best way to go. Ask what is needed to change in order for it to be published. That really is the best way to be on good terms with your Reviewer.

 

B.

[+Team Microdot]

I guess everyone would be happier if instead of placing a hide near a favorite place to eat and drink, you just threw a film can under a lamppost and posted a boring cut-and-paste description. At least it wouldn't offend anybody.

 

Yup. That seems to be the only kind of "caches" that have no problems being published

 

In my experience, reviewers are friendly, intelligent, flexible and helpful individuals who will try to reach good compromises in situations where caches don't meet guidelines - so that those caches can be published with as close a fit to what the CO intended as possible.

 

I could understand though that a reviewer faced with a constant stream of all-or-nothing attitudes like those above might just opt for simplicity and an easy life by sticking stringently to the guidelines in every case.

[+Touchstone]

How about leaving the business side out of the cache description. Then, after it is approved, post a note log stating that this area is where you stop for your favorite whatsit? I think note logs can mention the fact that there are businesses nearby. They might even be able to mention the business by name, but no need to go that far. Just put what you were thinking about putting into the description in a note log instead. So what if only a few people see it. It's a personal opinion anyway.

I'm not sure where someone would draw the line with such a scenario. Mentioning the business in a Note? Why not a link to the business website? How about posting a picture of their awesome logo or the catchy jingle that they use to sell their product(s)?

 

Lest we forget, there was a recent spammer that was posting bogus Finds on caches to advertise their "hint" website. Would be a shame to end up in their situation and loose all access to gc.com because of TOU violations.

[+on4bam]

I'm not sure where someone would draw the line with such a scenario. Mentioning the business in a Note? Why not a link to the business website? How about posting a picture of their awesome logo or the catchy jingle that they use to sell their product(s)?

 

You mean like Waymarking with tons of McDo and other commercial venues?

[Pup Patrol]

I'm not sure where someone would draw the line with such a scenario. Mentioning the business in a Note? Why not a link to the business website? How about posting a picture of their awesome logo or the catchy jingle that they use to sell their product(s)?

 

You mean like Waymarking with tons of McDo and other commercial venues?

 

Obviously, Waymarking and Geocaching are completely different things, and one does not have anything to do with the other.

 

Mentioning Waymarking in this discussion just muddies the issues.

 

 

B.

[+Touchstone]

I'm not sure where someone would draw the line with such a scenario. Mentioning the business in a Note? Why not a link to the business website? How about posting a picture of their awesome logo or the catchy jingle that they use to sell their product(s)?

 

You mean like Waymarking with tons of McDo and other commercial venues?

I thought we were discussing geocaching? In order to keep this thread on topic, here's a useful link to discuss the commercial nature of Waymarking:

 

Waymarking Subforum

[+on4bam]

Obviously, Waymarking and Geocaching are completely different things, and one does not have anything to do with the other.

 

Both are GS. I mentioned it because I see no harm in mentioning a business in a cache description as long as it's not done like a commercial (i.e. go there for the best whatever). If a multi mentions that there's food near WP3, WP7 and near the final I see that as added value and I consider that when planning the day so we can stop by at a convenient time of day. The same goes for warning people there's no food/drink along the route. (adding the weekly closing day is also appreciated)

 

We now plan our day, look for nearby restaurants that offer small snacks/sweets and try to predict timeframes to be there. I would make it a lot easier if they were in the cache listing as not all places have websites or are found on maps or GE.

 

Of course, driving from P&G LPC to P&G LPC there's no use for it but we avoid those.

[+Touchstone]

...as long as it's not done like a commercial ...

 

Best to leave such subjectivity out of the hands of the Volunteer Reviewers IMO. Otherwise, I fear we'll see an explosion of "consistency" topics in the Forum.

 

There are a multitude of resources available to find commercial establishments. Geocaching doesn't need to be another outlet to peddle wares and services.

[+TopShelfRob]

I thought I read somewhere that part of a good cache description is telling why you are bringing someone to this location? If one of the reasons you are bringing someone here is because of the good food that the nearby restaurant serves then by all means find a way to let people know that without coming out and specifically endorsing the business by name. It may be a fine line between commercialism/promotion and merely stating a fact about why you put the cache there. Figuring out a way to state something that makes a particular point while still following a rule may take some finesse.

 

If due to this rule you can't even tell somebody why it's a good place for a cache, then either it's a bad rule or it's being enforced badly. There are more than enough caches in locations that have nothing special about them. If there is a cache near me that wants to bring me to a place that has the best beer in the county or the best hamburgers around, then I want to know about it!

[+niraD]

So I take each cache that I have found and I remember the descriptions, how they are hidden, and know that if these caches violated the rules that they would be archived. Why? Because as rules change, so does the responsibility of the admins to archive those caches that we would all think should be grandfathered in.

Actually, just because you see another cache do something, that doesn't mean that a new cache like that would be listed today. As the guidelines state:

 

"Please be advised that there is no precedent for placing geocaches. This means that the past publication of a similar geocache in and of itself is not a valid justification for the publication of a new geocache. If a geocache has been published and violates any guidelines listed below, you are encouraged to report it. However, if the geocache was placed prior to the date when a guideline was issued or updated, the geocache is likely to be grandfathered and allowed to stand as is."

 

The guidelines have changed over time. And just as importantly, the current interpretations of the guidelines have changed over time. The ban on commercial caches is a good example. In response to abuse, the interpretations of that guideline have tightened up, even though the text of the guideline hasn't really changed.

 

Usually, when the guidelines or their interpretations have changed, existing caches are indeed grandfathered. There have been exceptions, but they are rare, and they tend to cause a lot of "discussion" in the forums when they happen. And as others have mentioned, sometimes cache owners edit their cache descriptions in ways that cause them to violate the guidelines that they originally complied with.

[+Touchstone]

I thought I read somewhere that part of a good cache description is telling why you are bringing someone to this location? If one of the reasons you are bringing someone here is because of the good food that the nearby restaurant serves then by all means find a way to let people know that without coming out and specifically endorsing the business by name. It may be a fine line between commercialism/promotion and merely stating a fact about why you put the cache there. Figuring out a way to state something that makes a particular point while still following a rule may take some finesse.

 

If due to this rule you can't even tell somebody why it's a good place for a cache, then either it's a bad rule or it's being enforced badly. There are more than enough caches in locations that have nothing special about them. If there is a cache near me that wants to bring me to a place that has the best beer in the county or the best hamburgers around, then I want to know about it!

Sounds like a great idea. Maybe you could set an example and get started on this project locally with businesses in your area:

 

Geocaching Branded Promotions

 

I'm more than happy to support businesses and agencies that support the website. I wonder how many people bought jeeps because of the travelbug promotion?

 

If businesses are looking for free advertising, well pphht! Go freeload somewhere else, is my opinion.

[+Team Microdot]

If due to this rule you can't even tell somebody why it's a good place for a cache, then either it's a bad rule or it's being enforced badly. There are more than enough caches in locations that have nothing special about them. If there is a cache near me that wants to bring me to a place that has the best beer in the county or the best hamburgers around, then I want to know about it!

 

Sounds to me like the location in the OP has nothing special about it either - a parking lot which just happens to be next to a place where the OP likes the beer.

 

I don't consider geocaching to be about advertising beer or burgers.

 

If geocaching became that I'd stop reading cache pages at all.

 

I'm glad the commercial guidelines stem this sort of thing.

[+TopShelfRob]

 

Sounds like a great idea. Maybe you could set an example and get started on this project locally with businesses in your area:

 

Geocaching Branded Promotions

 

I'm more than happy to support businesses and agencies that support the website. I wonder how many people bought jeeps because of the travelbug promotion?

 

If businesses are looking for free advertising, well pphht! Go freeload somewhere else, is my opinion.

 

Oh, so the problem isn't with crass commercialism -- it's with crass commericalism that doesn't give Groundspeak a cut of the action! I see! Now we're getting to the crux of the issue!

 

How is commercialism any better just because it's a "Geocaching Branded Promotion"? Either it's good for the game or it isn't.

Edited December 27, 2015 by TopShelfRob

[+Sapience Trek]

If due to this rule you can't even tell somebody why it's a good place for a cache, then either it's a bad rule or it's being enforced badly. There are more than enough caches in locations that have nothing special about them. If there is a cache near me that wants to bring me to a place that has the best beer in the county or the best hamburgers around, then I want to know about it!

 

Sounds to me like the location in the OP has nothing special about it either - a parking lot which just happens to be next to a place where the OP likes the beer.

 

I don't consider geocaching to be about advertising beer or burgers.

 

If geocaching became that I'd stop reading cache pages at all.

 

I'm glad the commercial guidelines stem this sort of thing.

 

If I want to find a location for the best beer or hamburgers, geocaching.com is not where I'd go to find that. Yelp or google maps and others are much better. Very few people have any desire to see solicitations or product endorsements on cache pages. Even if they were on the cache page, almost nobody would read them unless they were required to solve a puzzle.

 

Now if you want to bring me to the best view of a valley or the falls, or the best hiking trail, or the best gadget cache, I'm all in.

[+Sapience Trek]

Oh, so the problem isn't with crass commercialism -- it's with crass commericalism that doesn't give Groundspeak a cut of the action! I see! Now we're getting to the crux of the issue!

 

How is commercialism any better just because it's a "Geocaching Branded Promotion"? Either it's good for the game or it isn't.

 

It helps pay to keep the site running. Geocache listings with product endorsements do not.

 

Go to cnn.com and make comments on their news stories, with links and logos to your favorite product or service. Eventually they will be deleted as being not appropriate. Call the business office at cnn.com and ask to advertise on their site, and they will be happy to take your money in exchange for putting links and logos to your favorite product or service.

[+Touchstone]

 

Sounds like a great idea. Maybe you could set an example and get started on this project locally with businesses in your area:

 

Geocaching Branded Promotions

 

I'm more than happy to support businesses and agencies that support the website. I wonder how many people bought jeeps because of the travelbug promotion?

 

If businesses are looking for free advertising, well pphht! Go freeload somewhere else, is my opinion.

 

Oh, so the problem isn't with crass commercialism -- it's with crass commericalism that doesn't give Groundspeak a cut of the action! I see! Now we're getting to the crux of the issue!

 

How is commercialism any better just because it's a "Geocaching Branded Promotion"? Either it's good for the game or it isn't.

Pretty simple math. One keeps the lights on, the other doesn't. I don't have an issue distinguishing the two. As the saying goes, TANSTAAFL.

[+TopShelfRob]

I just mean that it kinda cuts the legs out from the argument that commericalism is a nasty, horrible thing that has no place in Geocaching. (Unless a corporation "teams up with us" to be our "corporate partner" to offer a "fun and exciting adventure.")

 

Also, there is a difference between Joe's Burger Barn sticking a cache in his own parking lot and trying to use it to sell burgers and a cache hider that has no affiliation with a business merely stating why he thought it would be a neat place for a cache.

[+Touchstone]

I just mean that it kinda cuts the legs out from the argument that commericalism is a nasty, horrible thing that has no place in Geocaching. (Unless a corporation "teams up with us" to be our "corporate partner" to offer a "fun and exciting adventure.")

 

Also, there is a difference between Joe's Burger Barn sticking a cache in his own parking lot and trying to use it to sell burgers and a cache hider that has no affiliation with a business merely stating why he thought it would be a neat place for a cache.

I didn't say (or imply) that commercialism, "is a nasty, horrible thing..". You appear to be the only one that has a personal attachment to the topic. I don't attach any significance to it in any way. Someone wants free advertisement on the site (or in the case of the OP, wants to give it away for the benefit of the business), I say No, that's not right. The business should pay for that service just like I pay for a Premium Membership in order to keep the website viable.

 

Edit for typos.

Edited December 27, 2015 by Touchstone

[+TopShelfRob]

You appear to be the only one that has a personal attachment to the topic.

Let me go re-read it then, I thought this whole thread was about why commercialism is a bad thing for Geocaching. My apologies.

[+BCandMsKitty]

I just mean that it kinda cuts the legs out from the argument that commericalism is a nasty, horrible thing that has no place in Geocaching. (Unless a corporation "teams up with us" to be our "corporate partner" to offer a "fun and exciting adventure.")

 

Also, there is a difference between Joe's Burger Barn sticking a cache in his own parking lot and trying to use it to sell burgers and a cache hider that has no affiliation with a business merely stating why he thought it would be a neat place for a cache.

 

Commercialization or not, it's still an agenda! Leave the promoting or agenda language out of the listing and let finders decide when they get to the cache.

 

I had to reword a cache that spoke about a non-profit museum that had given me permission to hide a cache on their property. I simply left out the suggestion that cachers visit the museum and thank the people for allowing the cache there, and all was good.

 

Groundspeak gets to promote whatever agendas they like, because of the simple matter that it's their site.

[+Touchstone]

You appear to be the only one that has a personal attachment to the topic.

Let me go re-read it then, I thought this whole thread was about why commercialism is a bad thing for Geocaching. My apologies.

You might want to do that. The original OP was concerning interpretation of the Guidelines. Sapience Trek made a succinct reply without any judgement whatsoever:

 

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=336512&view=findpost&p=5555429

 

The Guidelines nor the related Help Center article make no attempt at placing personal value on the topic, but merely define and clarify what is considered commercial. I don't have an issue with branded promotions, banner ads and the like. I understand their function and totally support Groundspeak's need to do so, and gratefully acknowledge those businesses that help make this hobby and website possible.

[cezanne]

Commercialization or not, it's still an agenda! Leave the promoting or agenda language out of the listing and let finders decide when they get to the cache.

 

Even if driving by I would not stop for a cache when there is nothing in the cache description that makes me think that a stop warrants for me.

 

I had to reword a cache that spoke about a non-profit museum that had given me permission to hide a cache on their property. I simply left out the suggestion that cachers visit the museum and thank the people for allowing the cache there, and all was good.

 

Did you mention the museum and why it is interesting in the cache description?

[+noncentric]

So after a long day of caching I was introduced to what has become my favorite after caching place to eat. Since I can't mention names all I can say is that the menu of drinks made of hoppes, malt and barley are second to none on the island.

This part of the description does seem like an endorsement of a specific business, and the latter sentence seems like a purposeful attempt at thwarting the commercialization guideline.

 

There is a subway next to the cache as well. Who knows if my favorite is Subway, or Dave and Busters, or 7 Eleven or the nearby steakhouse. You don't, and either does the Admin. The cache just happens to be near multiple choices for any eating establishment. There is no pre-determined favorite is there. No way to know and hence no way to determine I am pushing for any particular place.

The August 2015 street view shows that the parking lot serves the following businesses, ordered from closest to furthest from the cache: Chiropractic, Beer/Burger/Dessert, Carvel Ice Cream, Sports Rehab, Haircutters, AutoZone, 7-Eleven. The steakhouse is 1/2 mile away and the closest Subway is almost 1 mile away from GZ. Not sure which D&B's is being referenced, as the closest one I see is 20 miles away. Once a cacher reaches GZ, then it seems pretty obvious which business is the OP's 'favorite'.

Edited December 27, 2015 by noncentric

[+dprovan]

If I want to find a location for the best beer or hamburgers, geocaching.com is not where I'd go to find that...

 

Now if you want to bring me to the best view of a valley or the falls, or the best hiking trail, or the best gadget cache, I'm all in.

I don't mind views, but I don't mind hearing recommendations for local eateries by the local geocachers, either.

 

I just mean that it kinda cuts the legs out from the argument that commericalism is a nasty, horrible thing that has no place in Geocaching. (Unless a corporation "teams up with us" to be our "corporate partner" to offer a "fun and exciting adventure.")

No one that's being reasonable should claim that commercialism is inherently nasty. GS is not a charity. Yes, it has rules giving it the monopoly on commercial geocaches. I'm fine with that until they put out too many commercial geocaches, just like I'm find with the ads on the web pages as long as they don't start popping up in my face.

[+L0ne.R]

1451238199[/url]' post='5555545']

 

We now plan our day, look for nearby restaurants that offer small snacks/sweets and try to predict timeframes to be there. I would make it a lot easier if they were in the cache listing as not all places have websites or are found on maps or GE.

 

 

I like to combine geocaching with visiting independent coffee roasters/cafes/shops. I like to use Yelp, TripAdvisor, google maps to find coffee in small towns, then look to see if there are decent caches nearby. Sometimes I'll do the opposite, find a decent go-to cache then see if there are indie coffee shops nearby. Travel and restaurant sites and apps can be a great source. More reviews, not just relying on the opinion of one cacher.

Occasionally I have mentioned the coffee place I visited in my log. I do this to better remember the day and sometimes to let others know (especially in small towns where a cafe may not be expected).

 

[+tallglenn]

It strikes me as a little odd that you would mix a day of "dirty" geocaching with visiting shops and cafes. When I'm out for a day of urban caching I wear the old stained/torn clothes and old tenny shoes with laces full of sandspurs. I'm barely fit to be seen in a Wally's BEFORE I get filthy! Afterward I'm relegated to fast food drive-thrus. I guess it's a different story if you're going out shopping/dining with a random P&G in-between.

[+on4bam]

It strikes me as a little odd that you would mix a day of "dirty" geocaching with visiting shops and cafes. When I'm out for a day of urban caching I wear the old stained/torn clothes and old tenny shoes with laces full of sandspurs. I'm barely fit to be seen in a Wally's BEFORE I get filthy! Afterward I'm relegated to fast food drive-thrus. I guess it's a different story if you're going out shopping/dining with a random P&G in-between.

 

We never have dirty clothes while caching. Mud on our shoes is about the dirtiest we ever are, we're not wild boars

Of course, if you're going for T4+ caches and climb trees and wade through rivers YMMV. There's no difference between us caching and the many families enjoying the outdoors and taking a break for some food and drink.

As for P&G, we can happily P without G.

[+J Grouchy]

Honestly, I have to agree there seems to be quite a lot of...ummm...flexibility in approvals. Sounds like the OP likes a particular brew-pub or restaurant that serves a good beer. Around here, there's a cache called "Chasing the Rabbit" that is literally right in front of a local brewery named "Red Hare". There is no way to mistake what it is "promoting". We have a series in the ATL area called "Moe Cache", each located near a location of the popular "Moe's" taco/burrito joint. There's also a "Publix Enemy" series (Publix is a big grocery chain in the southeast), each one being placed near a Kroger location (Kroger is a big eastern grocery chain that directly competes with Publix). In another case, there is a mystery cache series called "WW Mystery", each placed near a Walmart location (WW for "Wally World").

 

So I get what the OP is saying...there seems to be a disconnect between the stated guidelines and how each one is reviewed. I honestly don't see a problem with the fairly generic description the OP uses:

When you finish however you need sustenance. So after a long day of caching I was introduced to what has become my favorite after caching place to eat. Since I can't mention names all I can say is that the menu of drinks made of hoppes, malt and barley are second to none on the island.

 

Compare that to this:

Another Moes is found while traveling so another Moe Cache appers [sic]. This is a really quick find for anything out traveling by or stoping [sic] for food.

 

(perhaps the fact that it was placed in 2007 is a factor?)

 

...or this:

Growing up in Buffalo NY I was able to have many great foods. From our Famous Buffalo Chicken Wings to Beef on Weck. At this location you can try another local fav in Buffalo best HotDogs and now Atlanta's best dog. You will have to stop by during the day to regain your cacher fuel on a long day of geocaching.

 

(this is a 2012 cache, though...and part of a small series of caches located near similar eateries).

[+hzoi]

Honestly, I have to agree there seems to be quite a lot of...ummm...flexibility in approvals.

 

Or in editing caches after approval.

 

I'm familiar with all those Atlanta-area caches. None have enticed me to either frequent the business or find the parking lot cache, at least above and beyond my existing desire to patronize a particular business.

[+J Grouchy]

Honestly, I have to agree there seems to be quite a lot of...ummm...flexibility in approvals.

 

Or in editing caches after approval.

 

I'm familiar with all those Atlanta-area caches. None have enticed me to either frequent the business or find the parking lot cache, at least above and beyond my existing desire to patronize a particular business.

 

Same here...but that's beside the point, really. I didn't see anything the OP's description that would have made it any less publishable than the myriad other much more commercial caches that get published on a near-daily basis.

[+J Grouchy]

Honestly, I have to agree there seems to be quite a lot of...ummm...flexibility in approvals.

 

Or in editing caches after approval.

 

I'm familiar with all those Atlanta-area caches. None have enticed me to either frequent the business or find the parking lot cache, at least above and beyond my existing desire to patronize a particular business.

 

Same here...but that's beside the point, really. I didn't see anything the OP's description that would have made it any less publishable than the myriad other much more commercial caches that get published on a near-daily basis.

 

Although...now that it's 11:45 and we've been talking about it, now I'm craving a burrito.

[+hzoi]

Honestly, I have to agree there seems to be quite a lot of...ummm...flexibility in approvals.

 

Or in editing caches after approval.

 

I'm familiar with all those Atlanta-area caches. None have enticed me to either frequent the business or find the parking lot cache, at least above and beyond my existing desire to patronize a particular business.

 

Same here...but that's beside the point, really. I didn't see anything the OP's description that would have made it any less publishable than the myriad other much more commercial caches that get published on a near-daily basis.

 

Although...now that it's 11:45 and we've been talking about it, now I'm craving a burrito.

Hey, I know a place that does those in Atlanta. What was the name again...?