Pennsylvania State Park Caches - Permission Contact Info

[Bryan]

At Groundspeak, we recently received a letter [copied below] regarding permission to place caches in Pennsylvania State Parks. For future reference, permission to place caches may be requested from the contact person for the Bureau of State Parks: Charlie Meade Park Manager Operations Section Harrisburg, PA (717) 787-2191 cmeade@state.pa.us

 

Here is the original letter:

 

Dear Sirs:

I am Ranger Supervisor Richard Fischer of Presque Isle State Park in Erie County, PA. I would like to advise you the Department of Conservation and Natural Resources, Bureau of State Parks, requires the person(s) who establish a cache location in a Pennsylvania state park must first attain permission to do so. Geocaching Guidelines as well as a registration form are available at any state park. Without these forms the establishment of a cache is prohibited. Please pass this information on to your geocaching community.

Thank you in advance for your cooperation.

Richard Fischer - rfischer@state.pa.us

 

We hope that this information helps. Thank you for your cooperation.

 

Sincerely,

 

Rothstafari, Soul Adventurer

Groundspeak

www.Groundspeak.com

[+MissJenn]

I emailed Charlie Meade and he responded right away. This is the DRAFT of DCNR's - Bureau of State Parks Geocaching Guidelines (a finalized version will eventually appear on the DCNR website).

 

from the State of PA :

BACKGROUND

Geocaching has become a new endeavor on Pennsylvania’s state park and forest lands. The idea is to have individuals set up caches all over the state and share the locations of these caches and the coordinates on the internet. Global Positioning System (GPS) users can then use the location coordinates to find the caches. Once found, a cache may provide a wide variety of cache items. The cache visitor is asked to leave an item in the cache for the one they remove.

 

The following guidelines apply to all geocaches on state park land:

• Placement of geocaches on lands administered by the DCNR - Bureau of State Parks requires written authorization of the Park Manager or designee. This authorization will be considered through a review process, which insures its location is compatible with other park activities.

   

• A geocache contact person responsible for necessary upkeep of the site must be identified prior to approval by the Park Manager.

   

• There should be no earth disturbance or vegetative impact to any approved site. Nor should the cache be readily discernable by the general public.

   

• The cache may not be placed within Natural Areas or Wild Plant Sanctuaries, or on stream banks, riparian zones, wetlands, prehistoric and historic archaeological sites, exemplary natural communities, ecologically sensitive areas, unique geological features, or unsafe areas.

   

• A cache may remain at the approved site for no more than five years at which time it must be removed, the site restored to its original condition, and the Park Manager informed in writing of the removal. This will control cache abandonment and assist in preventing renegade trail development to the site.

   

• Unauthorized geocaches on state park lands will be removed and treated as abandoned property, and the responsible person may be cited for littering.

   

• Responsible party shall delete site location(s) from all publications and/or website(s) within seven days of removal.

[+MissJenn]

Request it from Cmeade@state.pa.us . Here is what it says:

COMMONWEALTH OF PENNSYLVANIA

DEPARTMENT OF CONSERVATION & NATURAL RESOURCES

BUREAU OF STATE PARKS

GEOCACHE IDENTIFICATION FORM

 

This agreement is made this _____ day of _____________________, by and between the Department of Conservation and Natural Resources, Bureau of State Parks (PARKS”) and _____________________________ (“RESPONSIBLE PARTY”).

 

The RESPONSIBLE PARTY desires to place a geocache at the following location(s) in ________________________________________ State Park:

 

SITE NAME (if any):

TOWNSHIP:

COUNTY:

LATITUDE:

LONGITUDE:

 

The DEPARTMENT is willing to permit the RESPONSIBLE PARTY to place the above geocache, subject to the conditions listed below:

 

1. Geocache container description (size, color, container material):

2. This permission is in effect for the period beginning _______________ through _____________________ (not to exceed 5 years); however, the permission may be revoked at any time by the DEPARTMENT acting through a Park Manager or designee.

 

3. REPONSIBLE PARTY is not permitted to do the following:

 

a. Earth disturbance or vegetative impact to the approved geocache site.

 

b. Move or alter approved geocache location.

 

c. Allow the insertion of hazardous or pornographic materials in the geocache container.

 

d. Other (state “no other conditions” or list other conditions):

 

4. The cache may not be placed within Natural Areas or Wild Plant Sanctuaries, or on stream banks, riparian zones, wetlands, prehistoric and historic archaeological sites, exemplary natural communities, ecologically sensitive areas, unique geological features, or unsafe areas.

 

5. RESPONSIBLE PARTY will remove geocache on or before the date of expiration of this permission; however, if this permission is revoked, RESPONSIBLE PARTY will remove the geocache immediately upon being informed of the revocation by the Park Manager or designee. Park Manager or designee shall be notified by the RESPONSIBLE PARTY when the cache is removed.

 

6. RESPONSIBLE PARTY agrees to defend, indemnify, and hold harmless DEPARTMENT and its agents from any claim for injury to any person or damage to any property sustained as a result of the placement or existence of the geocache or as a result of the use of the geocache by any other person with any device or for any purpose.

 

7. RESPONSIBLE PARTY releases DEPARTMENT and its agents from any claim arising from injury to RESPONSIBLE PARTY or any other person or damage to any property which might be sustained as a result of RESPONSIBLE PARTY’S engaging in geocache hunting.

 

8. DEPARTMENT does not assume responsibility or liability for injury to any person or damage to any property sustained as a result of the placement or existence of the geocache, or use of the geocache by any person with any device or for any purpose.

 

9. DEPARTMENT does not assume responsibility or liability for RESPONSIBLE PARTY’S safety or the consequences of RESPONSIBLE PARTY’S engaging in geocaching.

 

10. This agreement may not be construed as a waiver of any immunity DEPARTMENT may have.

[+MissJenn]

Since this is the draft version, I asked Charlie:

Are you folks interested in suggestions from the local geocachers at all? Or do you have all the info you need?

 

His response:

If you, or members of the Geocaching community should have any comments or suggestions, please email me. Not being a geocacher myself, and relatively new to this endeavor, I would welcome any suggestions you or you fellow members can supply.

[Team Grayrun]

MissJenn --

 

Thanks for following up on this. It looks like minimizing the Commonwealth's liability is one of the key aims of the policy. I think we can assume this will become the template for the future policies for State Forests and State Game Lands, too.

 

Gary // Team Grayrun

 

In a split second, all your priorities change.

[+MissJenn]

Gary,

You're welcome. I was sure that I wasn't the only one who would want a look at these docs. As far as I can see, these regulations are not horrible or unreasonable. I understand their need to "CYA" - as it were.

 

I do think the 5-year time limit is going to be the hard part. Hard for them to enforce, I think.

 

I also wonder: Will they really check each cache "in situ" before they approve it? How long is the approval process going to take?

[Mike Chmi]

Thanks for the info MissJenn,

 

I have a cache on Presque Isle and contacted Richard Fischer several days ago when this was first posted. He immediately responded and is sending me the necessarry paperwork to "register" my cache. So far (haven't got it yet) it doesn't seem like a big deal. Actually it appears that the parks have taken a pretty pro-geocaching stance.

 

Last year I had asked a Park Ranger (I'm not going to say in which park) about placing a cache, his response after I explained caching, was to just not tell him about it. He said he didn't see any problems with it but that the red tape would probably take to long to clear up if I tried to get official permission. Fortunately it appears that those issues have been resolved.

 

I'll also have to contact Mr. Meade with suggestions and other points. Like I said I'm glad that PA parks seem to have a good attitude toward caching.

 

"...Not all those who wander are lost..."

[+Ttepee]

I think this is great. It seems like a very reasonable process. I've been trying to work with the NYS parks system and have been caught in a few months worth of red tape now.

 

Today I printed up the Pennsylvania Guidelines and Application process that you've posted here and I went down to the Park where my request had begun. They thought it was a good idea to send it along the chain. Tomorrow I'm going to call the regional director's office and see if I can email it to them. Anything to try to help them sort through their red tape and Pennsylvania is certainly taking a Positive attitude about it. So far that has been my experience with the rangers here but we'll see how it fairs through the channels.

 

Rothstafari any chance with getting a database going like has been talked about in the forums? Where all the agencies that have contacted Groundspeak with a policy can be listed along with their contact information.

[+MissJenn]

quote:

---

Originally posted by mikechim:

I'll also have to contact Mr. Meade with suggestions and other points. Like I said I'm glad that PA parks seem to have a good attitude toward caching.

---

Yeah - it really is a pro-caching stance.

At this point, I feel that it's better they have a set of guidelines for us to go by ... rather than us just hoping that "no one minds if I put a cache here"

 

Another thought I had:

One of my caches is in an area where at least 2 others are hidden (owned by other people). If I apply for permission, and the others don't: eek! Am I risking that their caches be pulled? I certainly wouldn't want that to happen. I'll contact those owners before I apply for permission, I think - but it's up to them to do the paperwork (it's simple paperwork anyway). I guess we'll see how it goes.

 

ttepee,

Good luck in NY. Keep us posted.

[+Salvelinus]

Does this same policy apply on State Forest? They are different Bureaus of DCNR. Personally, I would like the Bureau of Forest to notice us before any of us bring it to them.

 

Parks are a bit different in that they are smaller and have a very high use per square mile of park lands. Some control was probably needed in these situations and I applaud Miss Jenn for her efforts.

 

One interesting observation from caching in Central and Northern Pa, is that geocaching is still an unknown activity to most Parks people up here. I've mentioned it to a few parks people who work in a park where a cache is located and I still get a funny look. With the amount of use our parks are getting in the more populated areas of PA...its not surprising they decided to do something.

 

However, the State Forest are a different entity. They are (for the most part) vast tracks of unbroken public land with limited access to the interior of the State Forest. I'm sure I've been on areas of State Forest where very few people have visited in years. Besides if they can let horses and snowmobiles on State Forest Lands without having to register THEIR activities with the Forest Office...what problem could a small tupperware container or ammo-can cause.

 

If all of DCNR requires this format, then I'm done placing caches. Why? No other user groups of these areas have to go through these kinds of hoops. Heck, I could ride my horse, 4-wheeler, or snowmobile on most State Parks and State Forest and not have to tell anyone about it. I wouldn't even be required to clean up afterward which most of us do voluntarily.

 

As Geocaching grows in this State the administrative burdon of registering caches to the DCNR may eventually cause them over-regulate the activity or prohibit it outright. PA State agencies have a knack for avoiding a problem unless you make it a problem for them. Then they tend to over-react to it in order to CYA. Working for a state agency for 15 years tends to give you some perspective.

 

I hope I am wrong, but I fear the possibility of less access to public lands for us to enjoy what we do is just around the corner.

 

Sorry to be so negative. But another perspective may be somewhat helpful.

 

Smoochnme

 

ps. I am drafting an e-mail to the appropriate DCNR people with my comments. Frankly I think their fourth requirement eliminates several entire state parks.

 

pss. I checked DCNR's website about a week ago and searched the entire site using the word geocache. Nothing came back. Hmmmm

 

"When your learning to take, the path at your pace...

 

Every road is worth your while"

 

[This message was edited by smoochnme on July 15, 2002 at 11:23 PM.]

[+The Leprechauns]

Maybe it's just because I'm a lawyer who writes agreements like this for a living, but I would NEVER agree to place a cache in a Pennsylvania State Park under this proposed form of agreement between the State and the Cacher.

 

The reason is the indemnification clause. Assume that someone is hunting your cache, which is near a footbridge in a State Park. They fall off the footbridge (loose board, no railing, whatever) and sue the State for having an unsafe bridge. BUT, since they were hunting MY geocache, I am liable under the indemnification clause, to pay the State's legal fees, and any judgment which may be entered against the State. No way.

 

Other than this one point, shifting liability to the cache placer, the State's approach seems very progressive. I always thought that this activity was "at your own risk" and that the cache placer ought not be legally liable for injuries, etc.

 

MissJenn, thanks very much for posting this information.

 

x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-

"Next time, instead of getting married, I think I'll just find a woman I don't like and buy her a house."

[+MissJenn]

I'm really glad you brought these other issues to light, Smoochnme and Leprechaun, Esq. Please do share your thoughts with Charlie Meade, too. He seems like a receptive guy.

 

Smoochnme said:

quote:

---

I checked DCNR's website about a week ago and searched the entire site using the word geocache. Nothing came back. Hmmmm

---

They are not ready to do this yet. Waiting until version is finalized.

[+Cachier]

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Leprechauns:

 

Other than this one point, shifting liability to the cache placer, the State's approach seems very progressive. I always thought that this activity was "at your own risk" and that the cache placer ought not be legally liable for injuries, etc.

---

 

I have a cache placed in a State Park that will need to be registered. I would like to get this done as soon as possible but, I now have concerns about the liability issue. I certainly don't want to be the lightning rod for liability occurances that happen as a result of injuries on state property.

 

Any solution? What strength would a disclaimer on the cache page have vs. the signed agreement?

 

"When you find it, its always in the last place you look."

[Team Grayrun]

I'm not a lawyer, but . . .

 

As I've reread the proposed policy, I share smoochnme's concerns. Overall, I regard the policy as negative rather than positive. Here's why:

 

First, the Pennsylvania Game Commission has adopted new regulations that limit the use of State Game Lands by non-hunters (and especially mountain bikers and equestrians), beginning in February 2003. This commission news release has the details.

 

Second, note the following item from our web site, referencing a story on geocaching in the Centre Daily Times (a story in which smocchnme played a major role):

 

If you've hidden (or plan to hide) a cache in Pennsylvania's State Game Lands or State Forests, you should be aware of regulations that apply to geocaching. The rules were described in an article on geocaching in the June 20 Centre Daily Times. Here's a portion of the article:

 

"In Pennsylvania, rules already in effect prohibit placing anything on state land without permission of the district forester or park supervisor, said Amy Griffith, district forester for Bald Eagle State Forest.

 

"Anybody interested in contacting a district forester can find the number in their local phone directory under state government, she said.

 

"The state Bureau of Forestry is formulating a policy on caching, Griffith added, but currently, if no permit is on file, foresters can remove any object left on the land."

 

Third, Item 4 of the proposed policy, it seems to me, is broad enough to enable a park manager to veto almost any cache location.

 

Fourth, the proposed policy would eliminate the possibility of taking a hike to place a cache without knowing the exact location in advance. There goes serendipity, i.e, "That looks like a great spot. Let's hide the cache there. Oh no, wait. We have to apply for permission first!"

 

Fifth, if you're not willing to take personal responsibility for your actions and your safety, you shouldn't be geocaching. It is not acceptable to require the cache owner to indemnify the state.

 

Maybe it's just me and I'm paranoid, but I see a pattern here that's going to circumscribe geocaching and many other activities on public lands in the Commonwealth.

 

The result will be either a reduction in the number of caches in PA or a caching underground that refuses to play by the Commonwealth's "rules" and uses methods to avoid them, such as time-limited caches, fake coordinates, super-difficult caches, etc. -- the old "If they outlaw caches, only outlaws will have caches" idea.

 

And remember that PA State Game Lands, State Forests and State Parks already have "abandoned property" regulations that could be used to justify the removal of any or all caches.

 

Gary // Team Grayrun

 

In a split second, all your priorities change.

[+MissJenn]

Good questions here.

If you get a response from the Officials, please let us know what they told you. Lots of people have their ears up on this one!

[+Ttepee]

I'm glad now that I haven't yet called the NY parks with this info. Very good concerns brought up here.

 

I am from the group that believes the parks have a right to know though. I am definitely interested to see how they respond to these liability concerns but as far as

quote:

---

Third, Item 4 of the proposed policy, it seems to me, is broad enough to enable a park manager to veto almost any cache location.

---

That is written broadly but it generally echos the same concerns we cachers expect from each other... respect of the environment and it's biodiversity.

 

I have 4 caches hidden in cooperation with the parks. I do not believe that any of them has actually been visited by the rangers. They just wanted to know that it was not being buried or sitting in a nesting area or something. I described the area to them, gave them the coordinates and told them my method for hiding and since then I have gotten additional caches on properties of theirs approved within 24 hours with the similar process.

 

This puts the responsibility of the individual park managers in charge of designating sensitive areas to you. If you expect a ranger to be a real PIA about allowing areas then that same ranger would probably have been one that would have confiscated any cache found. I kind of like the idea that the parks people are kinda looking out for my caches a bit. My very first cache's log was first signed by a ranger which left a positive message. Unfortunately that cache went MIA along with the log book so I never did get a chance to read what he wrote. I talked to the ranger this year and he told me that he had gone to bat for my cache when NYS parks wanted to remove all caches because of one they discovered and removed in Catskill State Park because it was in a restricted area on a cliff. He told them that this one wasn't hurting anything and it just seemed like a fun family activity.

 

Though the legal issues should definitely be looked at by someone qualified (ie not me), I don't think we need to look for the worst in a possible agreement like this with the parks people, your being offered the opportunity to express your concerns and help develop the policy. Tell them and see what they have to say.

[Mike Chmi]

Thanks The Leprechauns and Smoochnme. When I first contacted the Supervisor at Presque Isle and found out all I had to do was fill out some paperwork, let them know where the cache was at, etc. I was thrilled. Then MissJenn posted the agreement and riding on a wave of euphoric bliss about how easy it all seemed I didn't take the time to carefully read it over. Thanks for bringing me back to earth.

 

The indemnification clause (thanks for the explanation) is a huge problem. For reasons already stated. I understand the Parks wanting to CTA but hiking clubs who post trails, bird watching groups, etc don't have to sign indemnification clauses as far as I know. Geocaching doesn't add any level of danger above and beyond hiking the trails. Furthermore we are responsible but at the same time we are not allowed to do trail maintainence or anything else to keep dangerous situations at bay (not that we should be allowed). I'll have to get in contact with Mr. Meade, it's times like this that I wish I was a lawyer (or could afford to consult with one), also a geocaching political action comittee (the hunters have one) would be great. Actually Garmin, Magellin, and Lowrance should foot the bill for one.

 

"...Not all those who wander are lost..."

[+The Leprechauns]

I am glad that others found the concerns raised by me and others to be "food for thought." It is confounding, the "fine print" that lawyers throw into "routine paperwork." Once it's explained, it scares the scat out of you!

 

As suggested by the helpful Miss Jenn, I will contact the Pennsylvania official to voice my concerns from a legal liability perspective.

 

Right now I am on VACATION.... hitting geocaches all around my parents' house in upstate NY and having a blast... and also borrowing their computer to feed my growing forums addiction.

 

I will write my letter when I return from vacation and I will let everyone know what I hear back. I may even post the text of my letter.

 

x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-

"Next time, instead of getting married, I think I'll just find a woman I don't like and buy her a house."

[+Cachier]

Hi Leprechaun,

 

Thanks for taking up the cause.

 

I would wonder if any of the Park Officials would sign their own agreement.

 

After carefully examining the language, the requirements they place on the cache contributor are downright unreasonable. No one would dare place a cache on our State property without first purchasing a personal liability policy covering of all things 'Geocaching liabilities'. Geez!

 

"When you find it, its always in the last place you look."

[+Salvelinus]

quote:

---

Originally posted by MissJenn:

I'm really glad you brought these other issues to light, Smoochnme and Leprechaun, Esq. Please do share your thoughts with Charlie Meade, too. He seems like a receptive guy.

 

Smoochnme said:

quote:

---

I checked DCNR's website about a week ago and searched the entire site using the word geocache. Nothing came back. Hmmmm

---

They are not ready to do this yet. Waiting until version is finalized.

---

 

I still don't understand if these are regulations being developed by the DCNR Bureau of State Parks or just park managers trying to control activities at their parks. If these are new State Park regulations, they cannot be developed without public input. Furthermore, the places where the public should be hearing about these proposed regulations (Internet, PA Bulletin, ect...) have no information about any such proposed regulations.

 

State Parks and Forest belong to all of us. State Agencies are designated to be the managers and stewards of these area as stated in the PA constitution and the Public Trust Doctrine. That does not mean that they are the appointed "kings of the domain", although some park managers think that they are. Regulations to mangage and protect these public areas must have a public process before they can be legally implimented.

 

All that being said, I'm unsure of where we should go. Should we wait...or interject ourselves into whatever they are up to? Is it time for us to get formally organized?

 

I must confess that yesterday I missed a golden opportunity. I spent the entire day with a State Park manager dealing with issues activities related to what my agency does with State Parks. I should of found an opportunity to get some information from him related to this topic. But, we got so involved in our issues that geocaching never entered my mind until I was driving home. Sorry I'm sure I'll get other chances soon.

 

Smoochnme

 

"When your learning to take, the path at your pace...

 

Every road is worth your while"

[+MissJenn]

Charlie Meade, Park Manager

PA Bureau of State Parks Operations Section

P.O. Box 8551, 400 Market Street, Harrisburg, PA 17105-8551

Voice 717-787-2191, Fax 717-783-5017

Cmeade@state.pa.us

VISIT OUR WEB SITE AT: http://www.dcnr.state.pa.us/stateparks

 

[This message was edited by MissJenn on July 17, 2002 at 07:12 AM.]

[+MissJenn]

This is one of the responses I got:

 

quote:

---

Hello Jen[n],

 

In general, we allow our manager's to make their own decisions as to how best to manage their facility. Although there are certain decisions that are ultimately made here in Harrisburg, we tend to give our manager's much leeway.

 

The manager of each park will decide if he/she will place any further restrictions on where a cache will be placed. In many instances, they know their area better than we do, and are therefore aware of any unique aspects of their park in regards to possible safety hazards, or environmentally sensitive areas.

 

Although I certainly can't speak for each park manager throughout the Commonwealth, I would not expect any delay in the approval process. Chances are, the approval will be given by the manager or designee on the spot. If there is a concern at this time, it would be addresses prior to approval.

 

We are not going to ask that our managers to actually inspect the contents of any cache. We will rely on the "responsible persons" own ethics to abide to any responsibility guidelines.

 

If a cache or geocachers should violate any of the guidelines outlined in our eventual policy, it will be address by the park manager or ranger.

 

Regards,

Charlie

---

[+Salvelinus]

quote:

---

Originally posted by MissJenn:

This is one of the responses I got:

 

quote:

---

Hello Jen[n],

 

In general, we allow our manager's to make their own decisions as to how best to manage their facility. Although there are certain decisions that are ultimately made here in Harrisburg, we tend to give our manager's much leeway.

 

The manager of each park will decide if he/she will place any further restrictions on where a cache will be placed. In many instances, they know their area better than we do, and are therefore aware of any unique aspects of their park in regards to possible safety hazards, or environmentally sensitive areas.

 

Although I certainly can't speak for each park manager throughout the Commonwealth, I would not expect any delay in the approval process. Chances are, the approval will be given by the manager or designee on the spot. If there is a concern at this time, it would be addresses prior to approval.

 

We are not going to ask that our managers to actually inspect the contents of any cache. We will rely on the "responsible persons" own ethics to abide to any responsibility guidelines.

 

If a cache or geocachers should violate any of the guidelines outlined in our eventual policy, it will be address by the park manager or ranger.

 

Regards,

Charlie

---

---

 

Based on this, it sounds like this is just a vehicle for Park Managers to CYA if they feel "uncomfortable" with this activity on their park. It dosen't look like any new policies or regualtions have, or will be, instituted...yet.

 

They (DCNR) seem to be trying to avoid the "formal process" which I alluded to before. This is a good thing, although I still feel uncomfortable with some of the language in their "form".

 

I suggest that if you want to place a cache on a State Park, get to know the Park Manager before you do so. Educate him or her about geocaching before you suggest placing a cache on their park. Emphasise the benefits geocaching may have on their park. Many park managers are looking for ways to attract new visitors and ultimately you may avoid having to go through this paperwork.

 

As for existing caches. I'm not sure what the best approach may be? All mine are on State Forest or other public property. Existing caches may be a good opportunity to show Park Managers how harmless this activity really is. You could say; "Hey, this thing has already been here for a year and has had 30 visits, 20 of which said they never would have come here if the cache wasn't there. Believe me, they will take notice to that. I made an overnight trip to Presque Isle State Park just to do the "Fellowship" cache. I would have never done that without the geocaching opportunity. Now I plan on returning just because I found it to be such an interesting place.

 

Any other suggestions?

 

Smoochnme

 

"When your learning to take, the path at your pace...

 

Every road is worth your while"

[+Quest Master]

I probably should have been the one to start this topic since I was informed of the new Pennsylvania State Parks geocaching policy back on July 3. The assistant park manager at Ohiopyle State Park notified me that my geocache (Falls City) would have to be removed to comply with the new policy since it had been hidden in an area designated as a National Natural Landmark. Just for the record, I did obtain permission from the same park manager when the cache was hidden there. Even so, I had hidden the cache with the understanding that I would remove it if it ever became a problem so I drove down there on the very next day, the Fourth of July, and moved the cache to another location. I proptly notified the park manager that I had moved it and was informed that I would need written permission for the "new" cache. I asked for and received a copy of the new policy at this time. I made some comments to the new policy which included my concerns that it was overly burdensome to geocachers and park managers and asked him to forward it on to the policy makers. I trust that he did this. At his request, I arranged to meet with him last Saturday (July 13) to inspect the new cache site and obtain the written permission. I made another trip down to Ohiopyle from Greensburg. We talked some informally about geocaching and the new policy on the trek to the cache and back. He said that he thought that geocaching was a relatively low-impact recreational use of the park and that he did not think that there would be any problem with the new location. I did not get the written permission on that day. He said that he had to review a few things but I suspect that this was because they didn't have the forms ready yet. Yesterday I received (via snail mail) a big pile of legalese in duplicate and a request to sign both copies and return them to the park office. I don't understand it and I don't want to. We're talking about hiding a box of toys in the woods! Does everthing have to be this complicated? If I must sign legal documents to hide a cache then it is time for me to get out of the cache-hiding business. I remain committed to working with the park managers to keep geocaching safe, legal, and enjoyable without interfering with other park activities but this is a little much! Why would they even think of making a policy without input from geocachers first? I want to say before I end this post that I think it is a good thing that the DCNR is regulating geocaching. I do not think that all cache owners (Responsible Party)are going to be as responsible for their caches as they should be. Some will not maintain them properly and mistakes will be made such as hiding geocaches in places that are inappropriate. I think that every cache is a guest in the park and should be removed whenever it overstays its welcome. The park managers will have the final word and geocachers should cooperate. It's as simple as that. I'm pretty disgusted with the way this is being handled. I'm not going to return the forms that I have received but I will continue to work with the park managers and policy makers to see if we can't work something out. If that doesn't work, I'll take it up with my local legislator. Who's with me?

 

Johnny

 

[This message was edited by Quest Master on July 19, 2002 at 11:10 AM.]

[Mike Chmi]

And as smoochnme mentioned maybe it is time we get organized. I do think that caches in parks need to be regulated for environmental concerns and what not, I've scene caches in a state parks that probably shouldn't have been placed. So taking rangers to the site, notifying them it's there so a non cacher doesn't cause the bomb squad to be called in,etc those are all fine. But the legal responsability isn't especially for an activity that is essentially hiking.

 

Problem is usually the government/agencies don't listen to single people. Look at all the rights hunters have because of the gun manufacturers lobbying. Would be nice to have Garmin, Magellen, and Lowrance go to bat for geocachers, but even beyond that a group or committee to deal with these issues and represent us may not be a bad idea.

 

"...Not all those who wander are lost..."

[+Quest Master]

While I am concerned, like smoochnme, that the requirement that we must obtain written permission to hide a cache is overly burdensome to both geocachers and park managers, I think it is fair and reasonable if that's the way they want to play it. Furthermore, I believe that park mangers will realize that our game is relatively harmless and that it is not likely to conflict with other park activities. I may be naive but I think that it is wrong to assume that park managers will use the language in the guidelines to exclude geocaches everywhere in their parks. I expect that they will be reasonable. They know well that the parks belong to all of us. My experience with the park managers has been that they are very receptive and interested in geocaching, once it has been explained to them. It is my opinion that the park mangers should have broad authority to regulate geocaching in their parks because nobody else is better qualified to know if and when a geocache is problematic. I have no problem at all with the current guidelines but the "Geocache Identification Form" which I have received is unacceptable. We are being asked to sign a legal document with an indemnify clause and other difficult to understand legalese while other park users who engage in similar park activities such as hiking, biking, boating, hunting, etc. are not required to do the same. It isn't fair. The only difference is that we are leaving a box of toys hidden in the woods. Rather than just be critical I made up my own application form that I think would be more workable and a lot easier to understand. I would like to hear some suggestions from my fellow geocachers here in PA. Let's come up with something that WE can agree on and then send it on to the park guys. We ought to be able to work something out.

 

Placement of geocaches on lands administered by the DCNR - Bureau of State Parks requires written authorization of the Park Manager or designee. This authorization will be considered through a review process, which insures its location is compatible with other park activities. The location of the geocache must not be published on any website(s) until this authorization has been issued.

 

GEOCACHE NAME:

 

GEOCACHE LOCATION

 

STATE PARK:

 

TOWNSHIP:

 

COUNTY:

 

LATITUDE: LONGITUDE:

 

Geocache Container Description (size, color, container material):

 

CACHE OWNER:

 

ADDRESS:

 

PHONE:

 

EMAIL:

 

I certify that I have read and agree to abide by the DCNR – Bureau of State Parks geocaching guidelines. I understand that any failure to abide by these guidelines may result in the immediate removal and confiscation of the geocache.

 

 

(signature) (date)

 

 

GEOCACHING GUIDELINES

 

Placement of geocaches on lands administered by the DCNR - Bureau of State Parks requires written authorization of the Park Manager or designee. This authorization will be considered through a review process, which insures its location is compatible with other park activities.

 

•A geocache contact person responsible for necessary upkeep of the site must be identified prior to approval by the Park Manager.

 

•There should be no earth disturbance or vegetative impact to any approved site. Nor should the cache be readily discernable by the general public.

 

•The cache may not be placed within Natural Areas or Wild Plant Sanctuaries, or on stream banks, riparian zones, wetlands, prehistoric and historic archaeological sites, exemplary natural communities, ecologically sensitive areas, unique geological features, or unsafe areas.

 

•A cache may remain at the approved site for no more than five years at which time it must be removed, the site restored to its original condition, and the Park Manager informed in writing of the removal. This will control cache abandonment and assist in preventing renegade trail development to the site.

 

•Unauthorized geocaches on state park lands will be removed and treated as abandoned property, and the responsible person may be cited for littering.

 

•Responsible party shall delete site location(s) from all publications and/or website(s) within seven days of removal.

 

Things that I would add to the policy:

 

•The authorization may be revoked at any time at the discretion of the park manager of designee. Cache owner will remove geocache immediately upon being informed of the revocation by the park manager or designee. Park manager of designee shall be notified by the responsible party when the geocache is removed.

 

•The geocache must be properly maintained. Inappropriate items such as drugs, alcohol, hazardous materials, pornography, etc. must not be allowed to remain in the cache. Proper maintenance of the geocache also includes timely response to inquiries by park officials. Failure to properly maintain the geocache may result in revocation of the authorization.

 

•The geocache may not be moved without obtaining new authorization.

 

Let's hear some comments. I expect abuse. Bring it on!

 

Johnny

 

Johnny

[Mike Chmi]

I agree with you that the only problem of the parks agreement is the idemnification clause.

 

I think adding something to the agreement like:

 

"The cache page for any cache in state parks must include this disclaimer:"

The disclaimer would be something that the park lawyers drew up basically saying if you hunt a cache in their parks it is your responsiblity to be aware of terrain, dangers, etc cache at own risk yadda yadda. I imagine that would be some form of protection for them (maybe the Leprechauns could confirm or deny) without making the cache placer liable. I place disclaimers in the description of all my caches, not sure how much if any protection they give me but at least I hope it gives me a little something to stand on.

 

"...Not all those who wander are lost..."

[+Salvelinus]

quote:

---

Originally posted by mikechim:

I agree with you that the only problem of the parks agreement is the idemnification clause.

 

I think adding something to the agreement like:

 

"The cache page for any cache in state parks must include this disclaimer:"

The disclaimer would be something that the park lawyers drew up basically saying if you hunt a cache in their parks it is your responsiblity to be aware of terrain, dangers, etc cache at own risk yadda yadda. I imagine that would be some form of protection for them (maybe the Leprechauns could confirm or deny) without making the cache placer liable. I place disclaimers in the description of all my caches, not sure how much if any protection they give me but at least I hope it gives me a little something to stand on.

 

"...Not all those who wander are lost..."

---

 

I thought the disclaimer on this website covered situations of liability between cache placers and cache seekers?

 

Smoochnme

 

"When your learning to take, the path at your pace...

 

Every road is worth your while"

[+Cachier]

Originally posted by smoochnme

 

I thought the disclaimer on this website covered situations of liability between cache placers and cache seekers?

 

Smoochnme

 

http://www.contrabandent.com/cwm/s/otn/animals/goldfish.gif

"When your learning to take, the path at your pace...

 

Every road is worth your while"

 

I believe they are speaking in the own behalf, not for the greater benefit of the geocaching community.

 

Disclaimer

 

"When you find it, its always in the last place you look."

 

[This message was edited by Cachier on July 22, 2002 at 11:31 AM.]

 

[This message was edited by Cachier on July 22, 2002 at 11:33 AM.]

[Mike Chmi]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cachier:

 

I believe they are speaking in the own behalf, not for the greater benefit of the geocaching community.

 

[This message was edited by Cachier on July 22, 2002 at 11:33 AM.]

---

 

I'm almost positive this is the case, that's the reason that I starting putting my own disclaimers on them... that and some of my caches require walking along cliff trails, dodging ticks, etc. I too thought it originally protected us until someone pointed out that it didn't.

 

"...Not all those who wander are lost..."

[+Puppyman]

In the Groundspeak Geocaching Disclaimer in BOLD LETTERS it states

 

Cache seekers assume all risks involved in seeking a cache.

 

In becoming involved with this hobby, any geocacher who has registered have agreed to the disclaimer even if they did not read it.

That in its self is a contract, is it not?

 

Opinions??!!

[Mike Chmi]

I'm assuming if the disclaimer was ment to protect the cache placers this statement:

 

"In no way shall Grounded Inc. nor any agency, officer, or employee of Grounded Inc., be liable for any direct, indirect, punitive, or consequential damages arising out of, or in any way connected with the use of this website or use of the information contained within."

 

Would have included "Cache placers" along with the officer, employee, etc.

 

But then again I've no expertise in the area.

 

Anyone hear anything more from the State?

 

"...Not all those who wander are lost..."

[geezus4me]

Personally i think this is crap. They are so worried about a few containers with toys and pencils in them its crazy. I dont know about any of you but i walked north country trail and it is way worse than most geo sites. What happens if you fall down one of those hills who is responsible for that? they dont sign anything. after all dont we as working people paying taxes on this property allready own it? Like these officers have nothing better to do than bother us, im pretty sure theres poaching going on. eventually we wont be able to do anything with out someones permission. and they call this a public place yea right

[+Quest Master]

I signed and returned the paperwork to Ohiopyle State Park with paragraph #6 deleted. We shall see if it will fly. I also enclosed the following letter:

 

July 22, 2002

 

Sir:

 

It should not be assumed that geocaching is going to be a nuisance. I think it unlikely. I have become disgusted with these CYA games and creative worrying. I am ready and willing to cooperate with park officials to ensure that geocaches are an asset to our parks. I am very confident that this can be accomplished with a minimum of fuss. It is my opinion that the park mangers should have broad authority to regulate geocaching in their parks because nobody else is better qualified to know if and when a geocache is problematic. I believe that a geocache is a guest in the park and must be removed if it is or becomes a nuisance. It’s as simple as that. I believe that the vast majority of geocachers are in my camp. I have no problem with the current guidelines but the "Geocache Identification Form" which I have received is unacceptable. We are being asked to sign a legal document with an indemnify clause and other difficult to understand legalese while other park users who engage in similar park activities such as hiking, biking, boating, hunting, etc. are not required to do the same. It isn't fair. The only difference between geocaching and these other activities is that we are leaving a box of toys hidden in the woods. It will discourage geocaching in state parks. I think that this is wrong. The parks belong to all of us. We should be permitted to engage in this activity if we do not violate any existing rules or interfere with other park activites. Rather than just be critical, I am working with other geocachers to create a geocache registration form that I think would be more workable and a lot easier to understand. I intend to submit this form to the department’s policy makers and offer it as an alternative to what has been issued to me.

 

In the meantime, on the advice of an attorney who just happens to be a Pennsylvania geocacher, I have signed and submitted the forms that I have received with paragraph #6 deleted. Please notify me if this condition is unacceptable to the department and I shall promptly remove my geocache. Be advised that my local legislator will be contacted if it should come to that. Thank you for your attention to this matter.

 

Johnny

[+The Leprechauns]

Hello, it's been a few days since I have posted to this thread. I have enjoyed reading everyone else's views and, as mentioned just above, I discussed this offline with QuestMaster, one of our best PA hiders.

 

I would first encourage EVERYONE to write a letter like QuestMaster did, but in your own words and expressing your own opinions. My own letter will be a bit more "legal" sounding and that is fine as one contribution. But seriously, who is going to pay attention to just one letter from a lawyer? We need more people to write letters like QuestMaster's. Post them here as well as anything heard back from the State. I will post my letter in the near future... probably will write it tomorrow.

 

I also liked QuestMaster's simplified application form. This shouldn't be about legalese, it should not be very much different than the form we fill out to rent a picnic pavilion.

 

Next, I would like to confirm the consensus opinion that the proposed Pennsylvania application form IS acceptable EXCEPT for paragraph 6, the indemnification clause. I agree with Mikechim's proposal that the Bureau of State Parks can require the cache hider to place a disclaimer of liability on the cache description page, to cover the State's hindquarters. (What are the State's hindquarters, by the way? Probably they are located here in Pittsburgh. )

 

The Geocaching.com/Grounded Inc. disclaimer language has been quoted and discussed. My opinion is as follows:

 

1. The website's disclaimer is principally intended to protect Grounded Inc., Jeremy et al., and it PROBABLY WILL work for that purpose as an agreement between the site and the site user. I have no problem with it.

 

2. The website's disclaimer MAY operate to protect a cache hider from a claim by a cache hunter. There really is not a legal "agreement" between the hider and the finder. But, both are users of the site and everyone is operating under the same ground rules.

 

3. The website's disclaimer would most likely NOT protect the State of PA from claims brought by an injured cache hunter. The State is not a party to any agreement except for its proposed form with the hider, so that is probably why they placed the indemnification clause in that document. Mikechim's suggestion could help on this point.

 

Finally, just to cover my OWN hindquarters, and to honor my employment agreement, please understand that I am not giving legal advice to any specific person by posting here, I am just trying to be helpful. I especially do not intend to be speaking on behalf of Geocaching.com/Grounded, Inc.

 

I continue to appreciate everyone's good work on this important subject! The posters on this thread are an impressive group and, as a geocacher with no hides yet, I'm honored to have been of some help to you all.

 

x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-

"Next time, instead of getting married, I think I'll just find a woman I don't like and buy her a house."

[Mike Chmi]

Dear Mr. Meade,

 

I want to thank you and your department for being open to discussion regarding the upcoming regulations on caching in state parks. I've been caching for over a year, which is a long time in this sport, have found over 200 caches, and have placed what many consider to be one of the premiere caches in the Northeastern United States. I've also spent 6 months traveling the country backpacking and hiking in national parks, national monuments, state parks, etc. During this trip I've witnessed first hand the disregard people can have for the environment and our public lands (in fact next year I'll most likely be in a new video at Arches NP visitor center lecturing on the ignorance of what I've scene, why it is a problem, and how to prevent it). I mention these things because I believe that I am knowledgeable in both geocaching and environmental protection.

 

I am contacting you for two reasons. One is to provide you with some information that may be helpful during this process. I wanted to make you aware of the fact that there is another major geocaching website, where you may wish to post this information. The other site is XXXXXXXXXXXXX. While geocaching.com is much larger it is based in WA, NavXXXXXX.com is based in NY, and therefore a larger percentage of the user base may be active in PA’s parks. With your permission, I’ll repost the information to that site, or you may contact the owners yourself at comments@XXXXcache.com. In addition, I noticed that in the draft version of the form there is only one space for the cache location. Some caches are “multi caches”; these caches require the finder to go to several locations (usually each location is a tiny container with further instructions leading to the “final cache”). I would provide additional room on the form and instruct the placer to list the coordinates for all cache locations, so that park staff would be aware of each location. I hope that helps.

 

My second reason for contacting you is to address a concern I have. When the email from Mr. Fischer of Presque Isle was posted on the site, I immediately contacted him regarding my cache already placed on Presque Isle. I indicated how my cache page stresses leave no trace policies, the fragility of the ecosystem, not to bushwhack, and trash collecting while caching. I also asked him how I could make my cache legal and offered to take him or another ranger to my cache locations. He promptly responded that he would be sending the required forms to me. At this point, I was very pleased with the DCNR - Bureau of State Parks policies and glad to see they were taking a proactive attitude towards our sport. I thought “great, this will keep those few bad caches from being placed, protect our state parks, and still allow for caches to be placed” (which, by the way, have the power to draw the parks ideal visitors. Solely because of my cache at Presque Isle several cachers have traveled as far away as Penn State, Rochester NY, Cleveland, and Philadelphia for the purpose of hunting my cache. Many of them thanked me for introducing them to a great park that they would never have visited otherwise. In addition, I believe many of them helped to beautify the park by removing trash while hiking the trail system there).

 

However, after MissJenn posted the agreement in the forums I became very concerned. I fully understand and support the need for regulation of caches in our state parks. While the vast majority of cache placers are considerate, there will always be those individuals who are ignorant of the potential damage they could cause and our parks need to be preserved for everyone. To be honest I think the vast majority of the agreement is fine, however there is a major problem with one part of the agreement. That being paragraph 6 “6. RESPONSIBLE PARTY agrees to defend, indemnify, and hold harmless DEPARTMENT and its agents from any claim for injury to any person or damage to any property sustained as a result of the placement or existence of the geocache or as a result of the use of the geocache by any other person with any device or for any purpose.” Geocaching holds about the same level of risk as hiking, bird watching, and other outdoor activities. Clubs who publish information about the trails in State Parks or post good birding sites are not required to sign these clauses. To force the cache placer to accept legal responsibility when no other groups have to is unfair and discriminatory. It also goes against the basic ground rules laid out by the websites, that being, the cache seeker assumes all responsibility for anything that may happen while they are seeking a cache. Furthermore, it is unreasonable to expect a cache placer to assume responsibility for something they have no control over. I doubt that the park system would want cache placers going out on their own and doing trail maintenance, bridge work, etc., nor should they be allowed to. However, if they accept the liability then it would almost seem they have a right to do this. It is my belief that this clause could keep caches out of our parks, which I think not only goes against what public lands were set up to by the state government to be but also prevents “ideal visitors” from coming to the parks (I have plans for a trash out cache on Presque Isle, which requires cachers to remove to collect and remove bags of garbage from the park). While I do understand the departments need to protect itself, however I believe that the department is overreacting because geocaching is a new activity that it does not have experience with.

 

Instead, I propose that Bureau of State Parks require that the cache page (the cache placer controls the pages content so it could easily be done) for any cache hidden in a state parks displays a disclaimer (written by the department’s lawyers) basically saying: if you choose to hunt a cache in this park you agree that it is your (cache hunter’s) responsibility to be aware of terrain, potential dangers, etc., that the state is in no way liable for any injuries accidents etc., and that you cache at your own risk. A similar statement is used by the owners of the website and I include my own on all my cache pages. I presented my idea to the forum and the cachers there have supported it. You could also require cacher placers to email the cache page (once it’s been activated) to the park supervisor. This would protect the Bureau of State Parks without making the cache placer liable. Once again, I thank you for your willingness to work with us on this topic and look forward to your response. I am more then willing to answer any questions you may have about the sport or help in any other way I can. I’m also providing my home number if you wish to speak with me personally.

 

Sincerely,

Mike Chmielewski

XXX-XXX-XXX

 

"...Not all those who wander are lost..."

[Mike Chmi]

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Leprechauns:

Finally, just to cover my OWN hindquarters, and to honor my employment agreement, please understand that I am not giving legal advice to any specific person by posting here, I am just trying to be helpful. I especially do not intend to be speaking on behalf of Geocaching.com/Grounded, Inc.

 

I continue to appreciate everyone's good work on this important subject! The posters on this thread are an impressive group and, as a geocacher with no hides yet, I'm honored to have been of some help to you all.

 

---

 

I'd like to thank you for your opinions (don't worry I would never consider or call them legal advice , actually I was wondering how long you would continue offering your opinions here because of that). Without your help I may have blindly signed my future away. Plus it's nice to have someone more knowledgable then us in this area.

 

"...Not all those who wander are lost..."

[+MissJenn]

I really appreciate the healthy discussion we have going on here!

Definitely, a non-legalese document would be preferrable. I will write a letter to Charlie Meade stating that and other opinions.

[+Salvelinus]

If you placed a virtual cache in a State Park would you still have to register it with the park? Several Parks have interesting things worthy of virtuals.

 

If not, then what's the difference between a cacher looking for the "Monument to the Lost Children of the Alleghenys" in Blue Nob State Park, or my box of goodies stashed along Bob's Ck which runs through the same park. Does the liability change depending on what type of cache you are looking for?

 

I've spoke with two park managers since I saw this thread and neither of them have heard about geocaching or any registration process for geocaches. Other than "my own curiosity" I didn't explain to them why I asked about it. Granted, the managers I spoke to operate smaller parks with fewer visitors than the Ohiopyle's or Presque Isle's. But, this seems to be telling me that all this may be a bigger deal to the CYA's in the DCNR Harrisburg office rather than their field staff.

 

So, I still don't know how best to approach the situation. Should I officially write in and offer my opinions to the Harrisburg office or continue to work with the State Park Manager with a friendly handshake and a smile. I guess if I already had a cache in a State Park, I would of written to them. But there's no way I'm signing anything to transfer liability to me. Especially since they already have some other process to deal with liability for other park visitors doing other activities within the park.

 

By the way, those of you that already wrote in have made some excellent points. If they read what you wrote, maybe we can get something we can live with.

 

Smoochnme

 

"There are 2 paths you can go by...but in the long run, there's still time to change the road you're on"

[+Cachier]

Mr. Charlie Meade, Park Manager

PA Bureau of State Parks Operations Section

P.O. Box 8551, 400 Market Street, Harrisburg, PA 17105-8551

 

cmeade@state.pa.us

 

Voice 717-787-2191, Fax 717-783-5017

 

Dear Mr. Meade,

 

I am a Pennsylvania resident who has been enjoyed Geocaching since my first find over a year ago while camping at a Pennsylvania State Park. Looking back over my list of Geocache finds, all were on public property, whether federal, state, county or municipal parks. All of these provided a quality outdoors experience in places that I would not have ordinarily visited. I enjoy writing about these great experiences in the cache page logs. I enjoy reading about other's Geocaching experiences. Since discovering Geocaching, I've found a renewed enjoyment and appreciation of the great outdoors.

 

From of my desire to share great places that I know of, I placed a cache on public land in September 2001. This was done in keeping with the generally perceived guidelines of good environmental stewardship. When compared to many accepted and common uses for public lands, Geocaching is a low-impact, low-risk activity. The cache is normally unseen, hidden from the view of the uninitiated thereby not causing a visual distraction or nuisance on the landscape.

 

I was pleased to discover the posting of your information through the Geocaching forum. I am in complete agreement with your guidelines for placing a Geocache in cooperation with Park Managers. By and large, the Geocaching community that I have come to know is responsible and respectful of property regulations and the environment. Published draft-guidelines not withstanding, the ethics of Geocaching support these principles of cooperation and good environmental stewardship.

 

In follow-on postings regarding permitting, I was disappointed and disheartened to see the unnecessary, personally burdensome language appearing in the Geocache Identification Form. I'm sure this well meaning but over-zealous effort to regulate this activity originated through misconceptions about Geocaching and the types of activity it would bring to the park.

 

Geocachers are ordinary people with an extraordinary interest in hunting down one particular square foot of earth using advanced technology and personal navigation skills. The challenge is in the planning and excution of the hunt. The reward is the find. Not unlike game hunters, equestrians, snowmobile riders, ATV riders, disk golfers, bird watchers, boaters, fishermen, hikers or picnickers, we enjoying our state land for what it contributes to our endeavor.

 

In your promulgation of regulations and drafting of the permit application, please keep in mind that Geocachers are there to enjoying the diverse utility of our State Parks. We bring no more (if not much less) risk or impact that any other park user or activity. Please draft a permitting process that is not personally burdensome or ultimately untenable as to deny us the enjoyment of this growing past time in Pennsylvania.

 

Gary Hozempa

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

 

Phone: xxxxxxxxxxxx

Email: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

 

"When you find it, its always in the last place you look."

[+Ttepee]

Gary.... excellent letter... voiced my sentiments exactly but much better than I could have, had I lived in PA ;-)

[+Cachier]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ttepee:

Gary.... excellent letter... voiced my sentiments exactly but much better than I could have, had I lived in PA ;-)

---

 

Hi Ttepee,

 

Thanks for your kind comments and your contributions to this important topic. I believe, what we are able to accomplish here will assist other public land managment agencies to develop practical regulatory policies. This may be the tip of the iceberg, so to speak, as Geocaching becomes more widely recognized and practiced.

 

"When you find it, its always in the last place you look."

[+Puppyman]

I just came from a meeting with Bob Tait of the North Country Trail Association At Moraine State Park.

Here are some suggestions he has made.

1. Check other states ie: Ohio, W. VA, and N.Y. to see if they have a simular formats in place or being prepare to be put in place.

2. Having Geocachers come to the main park office to sign a wavier. Listing the caches they intend to locate, giving the park some idea where they should look in case something may happen. I know, its a hassle but it will protect the state and the cache placers from liability.

3. Require cache placers to register there caches on state property. You get a registration number to place on your cache so park officials know at a glance that the cache has been okayed.

4. Place a notice on Caches Pages that the cache hunters need to goto park office to sign waiver.

[+Salvelinus]

quote:

---

Originally posted by puppyman:

I just came from a meeting with Bob Tait of the North Country Trail Association At Moraine State Park.

Here are some suggestions he has made.

1. Check other states ie: Ohio, W. VA, and N.Y. to see if they have a simular formats in place or being prepare to be put in place.

2. Having Geocachers come to the main park office to sign a wavier. Listing the caches they intend to locate, giving the park some idea where they should look in case something may happen. I know, its a hassle but it will protect the state and the cache placers from liability.

3. Require cache placers to register there caches on state property. You get a registration number to place on your cache so park officials know at a glance that the cache has been okayed.

4. Place a notice on Caches Pages that the cache hunters need to goto park office to sign waiver.

---

 

You've got to be kidding!!!??? Check in with the park office before I geocache...and then sign a waiver? Waiver for what? Liability from what? Do the horseback riders, hikers and the snowmobilers have to do that?

 

Do all visitors to the parks have to check in, just in case something happens to them? Maybe a visitor might get eaten by a bear while they are smelling the flowers.

 

I'm sorry, but the "suggestions" you received are a bunch of crap. Based on these "suggestions", geocachers are being perceived as nothing but a bunch of radicals ready to rape and pillage State Parks. So, the good ones better register so the Park feels like they have better control of them. More so than the average State Park user.

 

What's Next!!!

 

Smoochnme

 

"The trail will be long and full of frustrations. Life is a whole and good and evil must be accepted together"

 

Ralph Abele

 

[This message was edited by smoochnme on July 25, 2002 at 08:26 PM.]

[+The Leprechauns]

I've held off writing anything to the State as I've been watching what has developed here in this forum and also in the various e-mails I've exchanged offline. I think the letters posted here are far more eloquent than any legalese argument I might make. I hope to meet Puppyman during a caching trip this weekend and can talk about this at some length. Probably after that I will collect my thoughts and write something.

 

Smoochnme, I agree with your sentiments... you don't have to register or sign a waiver if you are just hiking down the same trail, but if you are looking for a tupperware container alongside that same path... WHOA.

 

BUT I did wish to point out some positives:

 

1. There is a continuing dialogue, which is better than, say, the NPS and their "just say no" policy.

 

2. This is a good ranger who has a good relationship with cachers in his area. Same goes for Mikechim's contact at Presque Isle and Questmaster's at Ohiopyle. Real people meeting real rangers, and winning them over to our pasttime, will carry more weight in Harrisburg than, say, an e-mail from a lawyer like me.

 

3. The ranger's suggestions are a far cry better than an indemnity clause where the hider has to agree to protect the State.

 

Like anything involving the government, change will not come quickly. Let's keep up both the letter writing campaign AND the personal meetings!

 

x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-

"Daddy, are we there yet? No, .17 to go. Are we there yet? No, .16 to go....."

[+IWILLFIND]

I am in West Virgina and am following this board with interest for fear that our state park system may get hold of this and start messing with cachers like our neighbors in Pennsylvania are being messed with....I have only been Caching for about 10 months and have had experiences in 3 of our state parks with caching. In all 3 parks I talked to at least one of the parks Naturalist and they all 3 were excited that someone had selected there park to place a cache in. In a case this past weekend there were 5 caches inside the park boundries and in talking to the folks there they only new of 4 so when I told them I was going to hunt for the one that they didn't know about they asked if they could join me..Needless to say they made the hike more enjoyable for me and they said they had a good time also.They also stated that Geocaching would be a good way to draw people to the Park!!!!!!!They said that with 5 in the park that for a park that size it wasn't enough caches and they had some wonderful spots to place some caches...I can't wait till they do place them..I hope that you folks in PA get this worked out for the good of the sport!!!!!!!!!

[Team Grayrun]

I'm with smoochnme on this latest suggestion, which apparently came from someone official at Moraine State Park.

 

It is absurd for geocachers to be required to "check in" at the park office before going on a hunt. No other park users are required to do that -- or to sign a liability waiver document.

 

As I wrote earlier, the way this process is developing is a threat to geocaching not just because of the proposed policy, but because of the seeming willingness to let each park implement the policy in its own way.

 

This means some parks may be cache-friendly, while others may not. Is this what we want?

 

Gary // Team Grayrun

 

In a split second, all your priorities change.

[+Cachier]

I did a search query of Groundspeak Forum on regulation. There's some interesting stuff out there that parallels our efforts.

 

"When you find it, its always in the last place you look."

[+Salvelinus]

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Leprechauns:

I've held off writing anything to the State as I've been watching what has developed here in this forum and also in the various e-mails I've exchanged offline. I think the letters posted here are far more eloquent than any legalese argument I might make. I hope to meet Puppyman during a caching trip this weekend and can talk about this at some length. Probably after that I will collect my thoughts and write something.

 

Smoochnme, I agree with your sentiments... you don't have to register or sign a waiver if you are just hiking down the same trail, but if you are looking for a tupperware container alongside that same path... WHOA.

 

BUT I did wish to point out some positives:

 

1. There is a continuing dialogue, which is better than, say, the NPS and their "just say no" policy.

 

2. This is a good ranger who has a good relationship with cachers in his area. Same goes for Mikechim's contact at Presque Isle and Questmaster's at Ohiopyle. Real people meeting real rangers, and winning them over to our pasttime, will carry more weight in Harrisburg than, say, an e-mail from a lawyer like me.

 

3. The ranger's suggestions are a far cry better than an indemnity clause where the hider has to agree to protect the State.

 

Like anything involving the government, change will not come quickly. Let's keep up both the letter writing campaign AND the personal meetings!

 

x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-

"Daddy, are we there yet? No, .17 to go. Are we there yet? No, .16 to go....."

---

 

I agree...

 

My post was a bit of a reaction before looking at the brighter side (Yesterday was a bad day ). I think the approach of positive dialog with the park managers should be the focus. Hopefully some of them (the Park Managers) will communicate with Harrisburg and calm some fears there.

 

I too am holding back commenting. Partially because I understand the process DCNR is using here. They are being proactive while at the same time information gathering using a non-offical posture. Continued positive dialog can only benefit us when/if and offical posture on geocaching in State Parks emerges.

 

Smoochnme

 

"The trail will be long and full of frustrations. Life is a whole and good and evil must be accepted together"

 

Ralph Abele

[+MissJenn]

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Leprechauns:

SNIP

There is a continuing dialogue, which is better than, say, the NPS and their "just say no" policy.

 

SNIP

Like anything involving the government, change will not come quickly. Let's keep up both the letter writing campaign AND the personal meetings!

---

Absolutely.

I agree with these sentiments exactly.

 

From the beginning, I really felt that the state does not want to be an ogre in this issue - they just want to CYA, and they are STILL in the draft mode. As they hear from people like us - or meet people like us - I think ( and hope ) that the evolution of the official documents will be for the better.