PA: DCNR wait time on approval

[+gnbrotz]

I'd like to get an idea of how long approval is taking around the state with our new guidelines. In my area, caches are being confiscated (and rightly so), but I'm coming up on two weeks that I've been waiting to get word on two that I've submitted. I was originally told they had "no idea how long it would take, because we have never done this before", but, I've heard from another cacher that they have had on the spot approvals. I don't really expect this (at least not regularly), but I figure if they have time to go confiscate them, they should have time to approve/reject my applications.

 

I'm only interested in DCNR approvals. Please mention if it is a park or forest, what park or forest area it is, and what type of wait time you have experienced. Any type of feedback (positive or negative) you have received from DCNR personnel can also be included if you wish.

 

Greg

N 39 54.705'

W 77 33.137'

[+Polgara]

When I went for DCNR approval at a nearby park/forest, it was approved quickly. The best thing I had with me was one of their trail maps and i marked with an "x" where each cache is. This way, they were able to see exactly on paper where my cache was going to be in reference to 'sensitive areas', instead of just handing them a bunch of coordinates. They can't tell anything immediately from a sheet of coordinates without using topo software. I did give them the coordinates on a separate sheet. One of my areas was rejected, but they were very cooperative and pointed out a nearby spot on the map which was suitable.

 

I had also took along with me information on CITO, and pics, and different event caches like the "blazing Good TIme" which is coming up on the 22nd, to show the park staff that cachers are a good group of people that can be very helpful for the forest.

 

"The more I study nature, the more I am amazed at the Creator."

- Louis Pasteur

[+gnbrotz]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ce'Nedra:

They can't tell anything immediately from a sheet of coordinates without using topo software.

---

It was my understanding that the provided coords were entered into a PNDI search and it was basically a thumbs up/down as to whether that 'spot' was in a sensitive (prohibited) area.

 

Greg

N 39 54.705'

W 77 33.137'

[+retphoto]

I have gone though this process several times. with at least 4 different DCNR reps. The quickest was 24 hours, the longest was nearly 2 months.

 

PNDI is one of the qualifiers, there may be others.

 

I beleive that teh best procedure is to scout out the site, submit to GEOCACHING(with notice that pending approval), printout a copy of teh cache page, stable that to your DCNR Form and turn in to the proper office.

 

DO NOT place your cache until you receive Approval from DCNR...once you receive then place....

 

The Rangers ARE checking the sites!!!

 

Give me a Tall ship, and a Star to steer her bye...

 

The White Fleet....

[+gnbrotz]

quote:

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Originally posted by geo-Packrat:

The quickest was 24 hours, the longest was nearly 2 months.

---

 

Was there a specific reason for such a long wait? Was there any communication exchanged during this time (questions that needed addressed, etc.), or did it just end up on someone's desk for a while?

 

Greg

N 39 54.705'

W 77 33.137'

[+Quest Master]

I asked for forms via email from three different DCNR authorities (2 Parks and 1 Forest) for existing geocaches that I had obtained verbal permission to hide. I got forms from one of the parks which were the out-of-date forms with the dreaded indemnification clause. I signed it anyway and sent it back. I got nothing from the others. I don't think they care and I don't blame them. You will probably get better results if you present yourself in person but don't count on it. The red tape is too much for this geocacher. I'm done hiding in DCNR areas.

 

Johnny

[+Polgara]

quote:

---

I beleive that teh best procedure is to scout out the site, submit to GEOCACHING(with notice that pending approval)

---

 

I don't submit anything to geocaching.com till I have DCNR approval. If DCNR won't allow it, why flood the approvers with unnecessary caches.

 

"The more I study nature, the more I am amazed at the Creator."

- Louis Pasteur

 

[This message was edited by Ce'Nedra on June 10, 2003 at 12:14 AM.]

[+NJ Admin]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Quest Master:

I asked for forms via email from three different DCNR authorities (2 Parks and 1 Forest) for existing geocaches that I had obtained verbal permission to hide. I got forms from one of the parks which were the out-of-date forms with the dreaded indemnification clause. I signed it anyway and sent it back. I got nothing from the others. I don't think they care and I don't blame them. You will probably get better results if you present yourself in person but don't count on it. The red tape is too much for this geocacher. I'm done hiding in DCNR areas.

---

The form you need can be downloaded from the DCNR website at:

http://www.dcnr.state.pa.us/geocaching.htm

As far as red tape goes, it's pretty painless, usually.

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ce'Nedra:

I don't submit anything to geocaching.com till I have DCNR approval. If DCNR won't allow it, why flood the approvers with unnecessary caches.

---

The DCNR form requires the GCxxxx number and the URL to the cache page to be filled out properly. While it would be a great idea to contact the local office first to see if the area you are considering is appropriate for a cache, you will need to submit the cache to geocaching.com to get the GC# and URL.

Also at that time we will make sure the cache complies with guidelines that might not effect your DCNR approval. One example might be your DCNR cache is too close to another cache located outside the park. Another example might be illegal or inappropriate cache contents. In both examples, DCNR might approve the location, but geocaching.com would not approve the cache itself.

Geocaching.com has a cache approver just for the state of PA, and she is very familiar with the DCNR process. A very good tutorial for placing caches on DCNR land can be found in her profile here. She is also more then willing to answer any questions related to caches in PA, so feel free to contact her thru her profile.

[Keystone]

Thank you for the kind words, NJ Admin. And just to PROVE that I know my stuff about PA parks, you are wrong on one point in your post. There are 2 forms needed in the permit process. Only the 1st is available on the DCNR website, the "Geocache Identification Form." The 2nd form is what you sign when you visit the Park or Forestry office. So when Quest Master complained about the old version of the form, he was talking about the forms kept at all the local offices.

 

This process is just a few months old and theres some wrinkles in it, but overall things seem to be going well. Yeah, some caches are getting yanked for not having permits. But permits are getting issued too. I have heard these complaints so far:

 

-- The process requires a physical visit to the office. OK for most state parks, but for state forests the regional office could be 3 counties away. Could we do the permits by mail?

-- You need your page URL to put on the Identification form, but to do that you need to submit your cache and have it put on hold in the approval queue. Fine if approval takes 4 days, but not if it takes 4 weeks.

-- Some offices are very receptive to geocaching, some view it negatively, some just haven't heard of the policy and don't know waht to do. Parks seem more positive than Forests (with exceptions). Since there is a permit process, geocaching is an ACCEPTED USE of State managed lands, so people should not hear "no" as an answer. The most you should hear is "this isn't a good spot because of ___________, but you could put a cache over here." If you hear "this will take a few weeks, I don't know what to do" then tell them how the process works!

 

Thanks for starting this thread. When we've collected some more posts I will use the info to contact the geocaching coordinator at DCNR.

 

--------------------

Saving the day and approving all the caches... before bedtime!

[+IV_Warrior]

quote:

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Originally posted by gnbrotz:

It was my understanding that the provided coords were entered into a PNDI search and it was basically a thumbs up/down as to whether that 'spot' was in a sensitive (prohibited) area.

 

Greg

N 39 54.705'

W 77 33.137'

---

 

Well, one thing that I learned during a recent talk with the local park ranger who's been very cooperative, is that the smallest area that he can run a PNDI search on is 50 acres. That's a lot of ground, and leave plenty of room for a "Potential conflict" to crop up. I believe they then are to submit paperwork or something to another office to see what the "potential conflict" is, how big an area it actually represents, and then decide if the cache location is appropriate or not based on that information. If the PNDI come up "no conflicts" you can get quick approval, but if there's a "potential conflict" I'd bet theat you'll probably be waiting a couple weeks.

 

Nothing to see here, move along.

[+Quest Master]

quote:

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As far as red tape goes, it's pretty painless, usually.

---

 

Painless?!

 

A seven step process which requires two visits to the cache site AND at least one physical visit to the park office AND two forms to be filled out AND preparation of a cache page for a cache that might not get approved AND waiting for an indefinite period of time for approval is painless?

 

If you say so...

 

As for me, I'll hide my boxes of toys elsewhere.

 

Johnny

 

[This message was edited by Quest Master on June 10, 2003 at 08:59 AM.]

[+The Leprechauns]

My experience has been positive, but perhaps not the norm. I've had four caches approved at Raccoon Creek State Park with no hassle. BUT... I talked about the potential hiding spots with the park naturalist a week before placing the caches, and he steered me towards appropriate sections of the park, so that when I brought the paperwork in, it was a rubber-stamp approval because the naturalist already knew the PNDI inventory in the area. And also, we had 60 cachers showing up for a CITO event at the park, and of course the park wanted the caches approved in time for the event, just like I did.

 

I also attended the NWPa Geocacher's picnic at Presque Isle State Park on Memorial Day weekend, and watched one of the park managers approve the paperwork for the two new caches hidden for the event. But in that case, the local group already had a good working relationship with the park.

 

Finally, this past weekend I attended the Southcentral PA Geocachers' picnic in Reading, and asked for feedback. I heard several good reports on hides in both the state parks and the state forests in that general area.

 

Summary: If you are starting from scratch with a park or forestry manager who has never worked with a geocacher before, it's safe to bet the approval time will be longer.

 

x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x

Some mornings, it just doesn't pay to chew through the leather straps. - Emo Phillips

[+Salvelinus]

I too have had a good experience. Moshannon State Forest accepted my forms. Sent their Rangers to check the sites, did the PNDI and approved them. I returned to sign the final approval form. Thus, two visits was no big deal as I took the time to interact with Moshannon State Forest personel and give them some information about geocaching.

 

I am now working with Bald Eagle State Forest who has called me following a visit where the person in charge was not in the office. I appreciated that!

 

Quest's problems seem unique to what I have been hearing. Hopefully his is an isolated case. Every DCNR person I have spoken to (4 State Park managers and 3 State Forest managers) like the idea of geocaching, and some are even now participating.

 

Salvelinus

 

"The trail will be long and full of frustrations. Life is a whole and good and evil must be accepted together"

 

Ralph Abele

[+Accident Prone Hiker]

My wife, daughter, and I placed a cache in Ryerson Station State Park on Tuesday. It was approved today (Friday). So, 3 days total. It would have been faster, but the park is between park managers right now. The cache isn't up on geocaching.com yet, but it should be soon. So far, we give the DCNR a big thumbs up. Let's all make a huge effort to not inconvienence the DCNR, or make a negative impact on state parks. It would be a shame to see geocaching banned on state lands.

[+Shoebox]

It sounds like a bit of paperwork, several visits, and sometimes a wait, but compare that to the other state that object to geocaching and highly restrict it or won't allow it at all. The fact that PA State Parks is working with us and allows us (and sometimes helps us) to place caches is a state park is wonderful. They could have follow the National Parks lead and keep the State lands closed to us.

[+MapLady]

My approval was on the spot (less than 1/2 hour) at the park office. I think that is because it is a cache that was already in existance in the park prior to the new process. The park manager had been to the cache site and had been planning to contact me after getting forms. I printed the form from the DCNR web site and took it there before he contacted me. He likes the idea of geocaching in the park. Thanks to the person who did the logo which is now on my cache page.

[+gnbrotz]

Today I finally received my approval for two geocaches I submitted in Michaux State Forest, exactly 30 days after submitting the paperwork. At the two-week mark, I called to check on them. The man who was taking care of it had been away for a week, but promptly returned my call. He informed me that there was a 'potential conflict' with both locations. He said that more than likely both would be approved, but that protocol required him to pass the situation on to a PNDI board for further review. This is what was causing our delay. He apologized for the delay and said that he was glad people still wanted to hide caches there and were willing to do what was required.

 

A few days later he called again to tell me that one was definitely ok, and that he would need to visit the site with me before giving the final ok. We did that this morning, and everything went smoothly.

 

We spent about an hour and a half sitting at the cache site, talking about caching. I mentioned the 'Cache In, Trash Out' policy and said that I'd love to get ideas from him about places to put caches. I also told him if he knows of an area that needs a serious clean-up or trail-work to let me know and I'd be glad to organize an event to get the job done.

 

He was very glad to learn more about caching and hopefully I did a good job representing us. He did say that so far, I have been the ONLY one to submit any paperwork for this area. They have confiscated 6-8 caches so far, and will continue to do so, though it's "not a high priority".

 

My next step is to contact some of the affected cache owners and encourage them to follow-through in order to get their caches back in place. If that fails, I'll probably go ahead and put my own caches back in those spots (after approval, of course).

 

There's still plenty of room to build a good relationship here, but this first step has been very positive. I hope the other cachers in my area help to keep a good face on our hobby (addiction?)

 

Greg

N 39 54.705'

W 77 33.137'