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on4bam

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Hi,

 

After an enjoyable holiday "down under" we were able to log caches hidden in the early days of geocaching. Now a geocacher from Holland sends me this:

 

Hello on4BAM,

 

Can you send me the answers for the cache Virtual cache

South Tasmania 1 . I be not able to get there, but need these cache for a challenge, because in Europe there is no cache place in the same month.

Greetings, xxxxxxxxxxxx

 

This guy seems to (virtually) travel a lot with founds in several US states, Japan, RSA, Canada, Bermuda... (all virtuals, no 'real' caches).

 

BTW, no way I'm sending him the answers of course. So sad people resort to this for a smiley, no self esteem whatsoever. :ph34r:

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Hmmm, that sounds familiar. A couple of weeks ago I deleted a found log on one of my virtual caches by a Dutch cacher who sent me the incorrect answer and was obviously trying to couch log it.

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I be not able to get there, but need these cache for a challenge, because in Europe there is no cache place in the same month.

 

Well good to know this kind of behavior isn't just a problem in the USA...

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To some lands and people, "Virtual" is interpreted as doing it via computer. dry.gif

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I be not able to get there, but need these cache for a challenge, because in Europe there is no cache place in the same month.

 

Well good to know this kind of behavior isn't just a problem in the USA...

 

I would not say that is a good thing to know.

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Hmmm, that sounds familiar. A couple of weeks ago I deleted a found log on one of my virtual caches by a Dutch cacher who sent me the incorrect answer and was obviously trying to couch log it.

 

I recently deleted a few virt logs from a German cacher (go figure) who obviously used street view to obtain the information. He was wrong on all three of them.

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Could always send him the wrong answer "by mistake"

 

It was my first idea to do so but then I thought "what if his log slips through by mistake?"

I could send the wrong answers and send a warning to the CO though :ph34r:

 

Just a quick look at a few few of his logs made it clear his virtual founds are mostly fakes.

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...what some geocachers will do to complete a Challenge Cache...

 

^^^ THIS ^^^

 

This is what makes most challenge caches laughable - the fact that qualification can rarely be proven either way, or at least doing so is more effort than challenge cache owners are willing to invest, renders the whole challenge thing pretty much meaningless because qualifying legitimately ends up being a lot less important than simply being able to get away with logging the challenge <_<

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...what some geocachers will do to complete a Challenge Cache...

 

^^^ THIS ^^^

 

This is what makes most challenge caches laughable - the fact that qualification can rarely be proven either way, or at least doing so is more effort than challenge cache owners are willing to invest, renders the whole challenge thing pretty much meaningless because qualifying legitimately ends up being a lot less important than simply being able to get away with logging the challenge <_<

 

In this case it's about qualifying for a challenge but in the Found it - Didn't find it thread it's just about fake logs on just about anything and for whatever reason.

It's about ethics, maybe they have the same ethics in their jobs.

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...what some geocachers will do to complete a Challenge Cache...

 

^^^ THIS ^^^

 

This is what makes most challenge caches laughable - the fact that qualification can rarely be proven either way, or at least doing so is more effort than challenge cache owners are willing to invest, renders the whole challenge thing pretty much meaningless because qualifying legitimately ends up being a lot less important than simply being able to get away with logging the challenge <_<

 

That and people will places caches specifically to meet local challenges. Often the caches are placed with bogus D/T, false attributes, names tailored specifically for a certain challenge, etc. I've seen what should be 1/1 caches given hard to find high D/T combinations, caches on dry land given SCUBA attributes and other kinds of nonsense designed to make meeting a challenge easy. People will actually log a SCUBA cache in a Walmart LP and use it to fulfill an attribute challenge, a 3.5/4.5 in a strip mall to meet a grid challenge or log caches on different days than they actually found them to meet date challenges. It makes the whole concept a silly exercise.

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That and people will places caches specifically to meet local challenges.

 

Which is exactly why some of the high numbers cachers place challenge caches in the first place - because they've exhausted the local area and want to stimulate the placing of more caches that they can go out and find.

 

Too often this results in low grade caches begetting more low grade caches in another race to the bottom - all in the name of numbers.

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And so do we move from trying to cheat to log a virtual to yet another challenge thread...

 

As TS I'd appreciate going back to the cheating part and continue the challenge discussion in the ... ummm ... challenge threads. :ph34r:

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I report any sketchy emails like that directly to Groundspeak. As far as I'm concerned, it's spam.

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And so do we move from trying to cheat to log a virtual to yet another challenge thread...

 

As TS I'd appreciate going back to the cheating part and continue the challenge discussion in the ... ummm ... challenge threads. :ph34r:

 

Sure. Why not. Returning you to your normal programming...

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I report any sketchy emails like that directly to Groundspeak. As far as I'm concerned, it's spam.

 

Depending on his reaction (if any) to my reply I may just do that considering that more than half his "countries with founds" are fakes. I guess asking for answers for virtuals/ECs is his normal way doing things.

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And so do we move from trying to cheat to log a virtual to yet another challenge thread...

 

As TS I'd appreciate going back to the cheating part and continue the challenge discussion in the ... ummm ... challenge threads. :ph34r:

How is this not a challenge thread? The OP specified that the reason for cheating on the virtual cache, the reason for filling stats, was because the cheater "need these cache[sic] for a challenge".

 

Did you expect everyone to discuss the cheating and stats filling, without making any references to the stated reason for the cheating and stats filling?

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And so do we move from trying to cheat to log a virtual to yet another challenge thread...

 

As TS I'd appreciate going back to the cheating part and continue the challenge discussion in the ... ummm ... challenge threads. :ph34r:

 

It's hard to discuss one without bringing in the other because they are closely related. Challenges are the cause of a lot of the cheating. Even the OP was a reference to that.

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How is this not a challenge thread? The OP specified that the reason for cheating on the virtual cache, the reason for filling stats, was because the cheater "need these cache[sic] for a challenge".

 

Did you expect everyone to discuss the cheating and stats filling, without making any references to the stated reason for the cheating and stats filling?

 

Rarely can one win here on the forums...

 

Respond to a person's post in its entirety and risk complaints that the thread is being derailed...

 

Respond to key points in their endless soliloquy and you're in the firing line for cherry picking quotes.

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Did you expect everyone to discuss the cheating and stats filling, without making any references to the stated reason for the cheating and stats filling?

 

No, but the discussion already drifted to placing caches with D/T ratings tailor made for challenges and that's NOT what's it all about.

 

I could just as easily have started this thread just mentioning someone asked for answers to a cache. That the reason for asking the answers is for a challenge had nothing to do with it.

 

I think claiming a fake find is lame/sad but trying to log fake finds by asking others for answers/solutions and even admitting you're never going to be able to find the cache in an honest way is another level.

 

I try to help out as much as possible if asked about mysteries/multi's... but will direct the cacher asking to the CO first and give hints later if the CO is unresponsive but I will never share complete answers/solutions.

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Did you expect everyone to discuss the cheating and stats filling, without making any references to the stated reason for the cheating and stats filling?
No, but the discussion already drifted to placing caches with D/T ratings tailor made for challenges and that's NOT what's it all about.
No, this thread is about people filling stats in questionable ways.

 

Oh, wait...

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I try to help out as much as possible if asked about mysteries/multi's... but will direct the cacher asking to the CO first and give hints later if the CO is unresponsive but I will never share complete answers/solutions.

 

So you take a dim view of cheats... but will help out the cheats if the CO expects them to do the work themselves? :blink:

 

And you're happy to help out cheats on mysteries and multi's - but virtuals deserve some special treatment?

And then you round off your OP with this?

 

So sad people resort to this for a smiley, no self esteem whatsoever. :ph34r:

 

I guess you're just making it up as you go along?

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And so do we move from trying to cheat to log a virtual to yet another challenge thread...

 

As TS I'd appreciate going back to the cheating part and continue the challenge discussion in the ... ummm ... challenge threads. :ph34r:

 

It's hard to discuss one without bringing in the other because they are closely related. Challenges are the cause of a lot of the cheating. Even the OP was a reference to that.

 

It certainly makes me wonder what the percentage of false logs can be attributed to the pursuit of a challenge, either directly or indirectly (i.e., to fill a spot on some grid that may eventually be used to qualify for a challenge).

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I think claiming a fake find is lame/sad but trying to log fake finds by asking others for answers/solutions and even admitting you're never going to be able to find the cache in an honest way is another level.

 

I try to help out as much as possible if asked about mysteries/multi's... but will direct the cacher asking to the CO first and give hints later if the CO is unresponsive but I will never share complete answers/solutions.

 

Happens all the time. In my area people cache in large groups and search for non-traditionals. The host hands out a sheet of paper with the day's target caches with the final coordinates to each cache. Often (and they've said so in their logs) they need a large amount of non-trads in one day to qualify for a challenge cache. Some even divide and conquer - split the group up and everybody claims caches they did not find, only on a smaller scale (not worldwide). The game has become rampant with "cheating". It all started when the power trail guideline was scrapped, then they added the Stats tab, then they allowed challenge caches.

 

I personally don't care if someone has a gazillion smileys, arm-chaired or not. But I do care about the effect it has on the quality of the game, quality caches and quality cache owners. Sometimes it feels like, 'Why bother".

 

And I'm worried that the game will implode (similar to the M game - when it became a frenzied game of points many started wondering what the point of it was, and left).

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So you take a dim view of cheats... but will help out the cheats if the CO expects them to do the work themselves? :blink:

 

And you're happy to help out cheats on mysteries and multi's - but virtuals deserve some special treatment?

 

So you think pointing someone in the right direction is cheating?

As I said, I don't give out solutions.

 

Real life example from a few weeks ago about a "Back to the future" mystery. Cacher asks what website the answers can be found. I help out with, " a search on BTTF + question keyword will get you in the right direction". That's cheating in your book? I don't do better hints than that, anything more will have to come from elsewhere.

Edited by on4bam

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It all started when the power trail guideline was scrapped, then they added the Stats tab, then they allowed challenge caches.

Challenge caches were allowed long before the power trail guideline was changed and the Stats tab was added. Unless you're thinking about the super-hero Challenges, which are an entirely different creature.

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I report any sketchy emails like that directly to Groundspeak. As far as I'm concerned, it's spam.

 

Depending on his reaction (if any) to my reply I may just do that considering that more than half his "countries with founds" are fakes. I guess asking for answers for virtuals/ECs is his normal way doing things.

 

I really don't care about people claiming finds they don't really have, because it doesn't affect me and as a cache owner I have the authority to delete fake logs.

 

But I do care when people disturb my peace and involve me in their ridiculous schemes by emailing me with this nonsense.

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To some lands and people, "Virtual" is interpreted as doing it via computer. dry.gif

 

Good point. Newbies may not realize that there's a world of difference between "Virtual Caching" versus "Finding a Virtual Cache"!

 

"I was sitting at my desk the other day, virtually caching, when I discovered your cache..."

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It all started when the power trail guideline was scrapped, then they added the Stats tab, then they allowed challenge caches.

Challenge caches were allowed long before the power trail guideline was changed and the Stats tab was added. Unless you're thinking about the super-hero Challenges, which are an entirely different creature.

 

Interesting. I've been caching for 14 years and don't recall a pre-power-trail challenge style (find x-number of caches/x-number of attributes/x-number of T5 caches before you can claim this find) cache, but maybe it's a traumatic memory block. tongue.gif Or maybe there weren't any in my area.

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It all started when the power trail guideline was scrapped, then they added the Stats tab, then they allowed challenge caches.

Challenge caches were allowed long before the power trail guideline was changed and the Stats tab was added. Unless you're thinking about the super-hero Challenges, which are an entirely different creature.

 

Interesting. I've been caching for 14 years and don't recall a pre-power-trail challenge style (find x-number of caches/x-number of attributes/x-number of T5 caches before you can claim this find) cache, but maybe it's a traumatic memory block. tongue.gif Or maybe there weren't any in my area.

 

Challenges have been around for a loooong time (in geocaching years)

try:

GCQQ9B

 

they just got out of hand later.

 

(I am sorry to continue the thread derailment but this statement needed correcting)

 

In response to your original post, I find that behavior despicable. Akin to having Jellis sign me into the last Ape cache next year!

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It's about ethics, maybe they have the same ethics in their jobs.

 

There's cheating in every competitive game/sport. If Groundspeak was going to morph the pastime in to a competitive game they might have considered the need to provide concrete rules, referees and sufficient penalties for dealing with the nature of the beast. Would have been best not to have let it morph into a competitive sport.

 

Google scholar:

 

Does competition enhance performance or cheating? A laboratory experiment Journal of Economic Psychology Volume 31, Issue 3, June 2010, Pages 241–253

Instead it turns out that individuals who are less able to fulfill the assigned task do not only have a higher probability to cheat, they also cheat in more different ways. It appears that poor performers either feel entitled to cheat
in a system that does not give them any legitimate opportunities to succeed
, or they engage in a "face-saving" activity to avoid embarrassment for their poor performance.

Possibly some people feel entitled because some challenge caches do not provide legitimate opportunities to succeed in qualifying. They need to arm-chair log, get masses of final coordinates handed to them, record caches they didn't find but a team member found, falsify logs, etc.

Edited by L0ne.R

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So you take a dim view of cheats... but will help out the cheats if the CO expects them to do the work themselves? :blink:

 

And you're happy to help out cheats on mysteries and multi's - but virtuals deserve some special treatment?

 

So you think pointing someone in the right direction is cheating?

 

No - that's helping someone to cheat.

 

As I said, I don't give out solutions.

 

Does that mean that you consider the people you do deem worthy of assistance to be less sad and have more self esteem than the victim of your OP?

 

Real life example from a few weeks ago about a "Back to the future" mystery. Cacher asks what website the answers can be found. I help out with, " a search on BTTF + question keyword will get you in the right direction". That's cheating in your book? I don't do better hints than that, anything more will have to come from elsewhere.

 

Presumably then you emailed the victim of your OP with suggested googling tips that would have steered them in the right direction? Oh, no, sorry you started a thread here about it in which you branded them as sad with no self esteem :blink: But then I suppose under your regime they deserved what they got - because they asked for help on a virtual rather than on a puzzles or multi's which, apparently, are fair game :huh:

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So you take a dim view of cheats... but will help out the cheats if the CO expects them to do the work themselves? :blink:

 

And you're happy to help out cheats on mysteries and multi's - but virtuals deserve some special treatment?

 

So you think pointing someone in the right direction is cheating?

 

No - that's helping someone to cheat.

 

As I said, I don't give out solutions.

 

Does that mean that you consider the people you do deem worthy of assistance to be less sad and have more self esteem than the victim of your OP?

 

Real life example from a few weeks ago about a "Back to the future" mystery. Cacher asks what website the answers can be found. I help out with, " a search on BTTF + question keyword will get you in the right direction". That's cheating in your book? I don't do better hints than that, anything more will have to come from elsewhere.

 

Presumably then you emailed the victim of your OP with suggested googling tips that would have steered them in the right direction? Oh, no, sorry you started a thread here about it in which you branded them as sad with no self esteem :blink: But then I suppose under your regime they deserved what they got - because they asked for help on a virtual rather than on a puzzles or multi's which, apparently, are fair game :huh:

 

Help?? They didn't just ask for "help" they asked for the answers so they didn't have to go anywhere near the cache.

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Help?? They didn't just ask for "help" they asked for the answers so they didn't have to go anywhere near the cache.

 

I emailed him with the best help I could offer, I told hem exactly where he could find the answers. Unfortunately armchair logging is not going to cut it :ph34r:

 

@Team Microdot: I give up, you're seeing things that aren't there.

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Quote - "I really don't care about people claiming finds they don't really have, because it doesn't affect me"

I see this said time and time again. Would the people saying this feel different if they'd logged a legitimate find on oh let's say, a remote virtual on a mountain top after a two day hike, becoming the 5th person to log a find on it since it came out in 2002. Then along comes cacher ArmchairLoggerJoeBlow posting his/her "Found it!" with maybe a "TFTC, greetings from YouKnowWhere"? Sure it doesn't affect you directly, but I personally wouldn't much care for it, or ArmChairLoggerJoeBlow either.

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Quote - "I really don't care about people claiming finds they don't really have, because it doesn't affect me"

I see this said time and time again. Would the people saying this feel different if they'd logged a legitimate find on oh let's say, a remote virtual on a mountain top after a two day hike, becoming the 5th person to log a find on it since it came out in 2002. Then along comes cacher ArmchairLoggerJoeBlow posting his/her "Found it!" with maybe a "TFTC, greetings from YouKnowWhere"? Sure it doesn't affect you directly, but I personally wouldn't much care for it, or ArmChairLoggerJoeBlow either.

 

I'm not clear on how this would actually affect you. You may choose to feel bothered by a log on someone else's cache that you perceive to be illegitimate, but there is no real effect. The cache owner has the discretion to delete that log if she/he chooses.

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I try to help out as much as possible if asked about mysteries/multi's... but will direct the cacher asking to the CO first and give hints later if the CO is unresponsive but I will never share complete answers/solutions.

 

So you take a dim view of cheats... but will help out the cheats if the CO expects them to do the work themselves? :blink:

 

And you're happy to help out cheats on mysteries and multi's - but virtuals deserve some special treatment?

And then you round off your OP with this?

 

So sad people resort to this for a smiley, no self esteem whatsoever. :ph34r:

 

I guess you're just making it up as you go along?

Which ties in with the more general question of what help is acceptable in this game. It's not all or nothing. I don't think anyone believes that no hints are ever okay.

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Quote - "I really don't care about people claiming finds they don't really have, because it doesn't affect me"

I see this said time and time again. Would the people saying this feel different if they'd logged a legitimate find on oh let's say, a remote virtual on a mountain top after a two day hike, becoming the 5th person to log a find on it since it came out in 2002. Then along comes cacher ArmchairLoggerJoeBlow posting his/her "Found it!" with maybe a "TFTC, greetings from YouKnowWhere"? Sure it doesn't affect you directly, but I personally wouldn't much care for it, or ArmChairLoggerJoeBlow either.

 

I'm not clear on how this would actually affect you. You may choose to feel bothered by a log on someone else's cache that you perceive to be illegitimate, but there is no real effect. The cache owner has the discretion to delete that log if she/he chooses.

Agreed. The only real effect comes if someone's bogus Found It log creates an impression that a cache is in place when it is actually missing. If I find a difficult or remote cache, my enjoyment or satisfaction is in no way diminished if someone else armchair logs it after me.

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Quote - "I really don't care about people claiming finds they don't really have, because it doesn't affect me"

I see this said time and time again. Would the people saying this feel different if they'd logged a legitimate find on oh let's say, a remote virtual on a mountain top after a two day hike, becoming the 5th person to log a find on it since it came out in 2002. Then along comes cacher ArmchairLoggerJoeBlow posting his/her "Found it!" with maybe a "TFTC, greetings from YouKnowWhere"? Sure it doesn't affect you directly, but I personally wouldn't much care for it, or ArmChairLoggerJoeBlow either.

 

I'm not clear on how this would actually affect you. You may choose to feel bothered by a log on someone else's cache that you perceive to be illegitimate, but there is no real effect. The cache owner has the discretion to delete that log if she/he chooses.

Agreed. The only real effect comes if someone's bogus Found It log creates an impression that a cache is in place when it is actually missing. If I find a difficult or remote cache, my enjoyment or satisfaction is in no way diminished if someone else armchair logs it after me.

 

A couple of months ago I completed a 5 star terrain earthcache that involved a significant paddle to an island. The previous finder logged it with a "TFTC" during a time when the island absolutely was closed to any type of access - and given that the area is subject to a number of unusual conditions, everyone else who has been there had written logs describing their experience. It did not seem likely that the finder could have gone to the island (illegally) and logged other caches found that day. So I had my doubts. It was a little annoying and I raised my eyebrows when I saw the log, but unless the land manager raised an issue, it was a matter between the cacher and the CO that did not affect my adventure.

 

But the example given is a virtual. A fake log on a virtual affects me since Groundspeak has archived many virtuals that have been subject to armchair logging. If I had received an email like the OP from someone asking for the answers, I would have had some choice words because their actions put the cache at risk should the CO not be vigilant. Since virtuals are subject to attrition and cannot be replaced, the example given might have a direct effect on the game - and ultimately on me.

Edited by geodarts

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Quote - "I really don't care about people claiming finds they don't really have, because it doesn't affect me"

I see this said time and time again. Would the people saying this feel different if they'd logged a legitimate find on oh let's say, a remote virtual on a mountain top after a two day hike, becoming the 5th person to log a find on it since it came out in 2002. Then along comes cacher ArmchairLoggerJoeBlow posting his/her "Found it!" with maybe a "TFTC, greetings from YouKnowWhere"? Sure it doesn't affect you directly, but I personally wouldn't much care for it, or ArmChairLoggerJoeBlow either.

 

I'm not clear on how this would actually affect you. You may choose to feel bothered by a log on someone else's cache that you perceive to be illegitimate, but there is no real effect. The cache owner has the discretion to delete that log if she/he chooses.

Agreed. The only real effect comes if someone's bogus Found It log creates an impression that a cache is in place when it is actually missing. If I find a difficult or remote cache, my enjoyment or satisfaction is in no way diminished if someone else armchair logs it after me.

 

A couple of months ago I completed a 5 star terrain earthcache that involved a significant paddle to an island. The previous finder logged it with a "TFTC" during a time when the island absolutely was closed to any type of access - and given that the area is subject to a number of unusual conditions, everyone else who has been there had written logs describing their experience. It did not seem likely that the finder could have gone to the island (illegally) and logged other caches found that day. So I had my doubts. It was a little annoying and I raised my eyebrows when I saw the log, but unless the land manager raised an issue, it was a matter between the cacher and the CO that did not affect my adventure.

 

But the example given is a virtual. A fake log on a virtual affects me since Groundspeak has archived many virtuals that have been subject to armchair logging. If I had received an email like the OP from someone asking for the answers, I would have had some choice words because their actions put the cache at risk should the CO not be vigilant. Since virtuals are subject to attrition and cannot be replaced, the example given might have a direct effect on the game - and ultimately on me.

 

If fake logs bring unmaintained caches into the spotlight, that's a net positive.

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On the flip side, I had virtual owner that chew me out of "cheating" because my answer was wrong, so I send him a picture of me at GZ. He let my log stand. (I look over all the pictures of ground zero to find the correct answer)

 

My advice is this, take pictures of yourself at each virtual. I often take a 360 degree video from GZ as well. Once in a great while I do get the answer wrong because sometime the question the owner asked isnt very clear.

 

Back on the OP, ignore it and have a good beer. And dont forget to laugh.

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Hi,

 

After an enjoyable holiday "down under" we were able to log caches hidden in the early days of geocaching. Now a geocacher from Holland sends me this:

 

Hello on4BAM,

 

Can you send me the answers for the cache Virtual cache

South Tasmania 1 . I be not able to get there, but need these cache for a challenge, because in Europe there is no cache place in the same month.

Greetings, xxxxxxxxxxxx

 

This guy seems to (virtually) travel a lot with founds in several US states, Japan, RSA, Canada, Bermuda... (all virtuals, no 'real' caches).

 

BTW, no way I'm sending him the answers of course. So sad people resort to this for a smiley, no self esteem whatsoever. :ph34r:

 

For my two penneth I don't understand the need for any sort of "cheating" that goes on :blink: , virtuals are not the only culprit as has been mentioned previously. I did have a thought though while reading through the thread :cool: (prompted by a couple of other posts though ;) ); perhaps the individual doesn't actually understand the subtle difference between virtual caching and a virtual cache? I have recently discovered just how bad google translate really is, some things you can "translate" and then "translate" back again the result doesn't remotely match the initial script :sad: . With the "virtual cacher" coming from a country where English isn't the first language perhaps he doesn't actually understand the difference :rolleyes: ?

 

I try to help out as much as possible if asked about mysteries/multi's... but will direct the cacher asking to the CO first and give hints later if the CO is unresponsive but I will never share complete answers/solutions.

 

So you take a dim view of cheats... but will help out the cheats if the CO expects them to do the work themselves? :blink:

 

And you're happy to help out cheats on mysteries and multi's - but virtuals deserve some special treatment?

And then you round off your OP with this?

 

So sad people resort to this for a smiley, no self esteem whatsoever. :ph34r:

 

I guess you're just making it up as you go along?

Which ties in with the more general question of what help is acceptable in this game. It's not all or nothing. I don't think anyone believes that no hints are ever okay.

 

Slightly off topic but that all depends on your viewpoint <_< . I very rarely use the hint when out caching or read the cache page before I go. I find doing so reduces my enjoyment of why I go caching, generally taking the dogs on a decent walk (which means safe off lead time) and finding something on my abilities rather than being told "base of third post after the gate" :sad: . The same goes for puzzle caches; if I can't solve a puzzle on my own then it gets stuck on the back burner until I can. Not that I am overly averse to giving out hints on my own puzzle caches/ caches without hints but some of those start out more cryptic than the times crossword :laughing: . As for multis and virtuals; asking for help on those (being an English speaker as my primary language ;) ) just doesn't compute as all :rolleyes: but perhaps that is because I don't cache for numbers of any sort.

 

Quote - "I really don't care about people claiming finds they don't really have, because it doesn't affect me"

I see this said time and time again. Would the people saying this feel different if they'd logged a legitimate find on oh let's say, a remote virtual on a mountain top after a two day hike, becoming the 5th person to log a find on it since it came out in 2002. Then along comes cacher ArmchairLoggerJoeBlow posting his/her "Found it!" with maybe a "TFTC, greetings from YouKnowWhere"? Sure it doesn't affect you directly, but I personally wouldn't much care for it, or ArmChairLoggerJoeBlow either.

 

I'm not clear on how this would actually affect you. You may choose to feel bothered by a log on someone else's cache that you perceive to be illegitimate, but there is no real effect. The cache owner has the discretion to delete that log if she/he chooses.

Agreed. The only real effect comes if someone's bogus Found It log creates an impression that a cache is in place when it is actually missing. If I find a difficult or remote cache, my enjoyment or satisfaction is in no way diminished if someone else armchair logs it after me.

 

A couple of months ago I completed a 5 star terrain earthcache that involved a significant paddle to an island. The previous finder logged it with a "TFTC" during a time when the island absolutely was closed to any type of access - and given that the area is subject to a number of unusual conditions, everyone else who has been there had written logs describing their experience. It did not seem likely that the finder could have gone to the island (illegally) and logged other caches found that day. So I had my doubts. It was a little annoying and I raised my eyebrows when I saw the log, but unless the land manager raised an issue, it was a matter between the cacher and the CO that did not affect my adventure.

 

But the example given is a virtual. A fake log on a virtual affects me since Groundspeak has archived many virtuals that have been subject to armchair logging. If I had received an email like the OP from someone asking for the answers, I would have had some choice words because their actions put the cache at risk should the CO not be vigilant. Since virtuals are subject to attrition and cannot be replaced, the example given might have a direct effect on the game - and ultimately on me.

 

I don't understand how fake logs on virtual caches which aren't being maintained affect you? Virtuals that aren't being maintained should be archived just as any other type of cache that isn't being maintained should be archived. At least with virtuals there is no geolitter left in place to rot and be found by unfortunate individuals as litter :sad: . A large push is being promoted about CITO and yet, from what I see :shocked: , a large proportion of the community would rather see poorly maintained/ none maintained caches rather than making the effort and posting the dreaded NM and NA posts and then taking the time out to do the required CITO when the cache meets it's "natural" end. There is nothing "natural" about a Tupperware box full of moldy junk hidden in the woods with no one going to look for it :angry: . That sort of junk only brings the game into disrepute, something a local major landowner has already cited as a reason for not allowing permission for a cache :mad: .

 

Happy caching.

 

Cheers

 

Schnuz.

 

Hahaarrgghh yeah goin' to PIRATEMANIA 9 (not that it's been arranged yet, more details in the future)? Be thar or be keel hauled!

The only MEGA PIRATE event in the UK to attend?

 

Hahaarrgghh, be seein' yah thar yah filthy landlubber!

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I don't understand how fake logs on virtual caches which aren't being maintained affect you? Virtuals that aren't being maintained should be archived just as any other type of cache that isn't being maintained should be archived.

 

Just to be clear, it looks like this virtual is well maintained. On top of that i don't think answers can be found online and as mentioned in the listing there is "something" in the questions that requires people to actually go there. :P

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I don't understand how fake logs on virtual caches which aren't being maintained affect you? Virtuals that aren't being maintained should be archived just as any other type of cache that isn't being maintained should be archived.

 

I was thinking along the lines that Miss Jenn wrote in 2009 when she addressed couch potato logs as a Groundspeak Lackey:

 

(T)hese couch potato logs contribute to the archiving of virtual caches. Many virtuals have been abused by so many cachers that they had to be archived. Often these are among the oldest caches in an area and many of them are in really interesting spots.

 

Or what Keystone wrote in a thread about Geocaching Liars in 2010:

 

Do you like virtual caches? Wish that news ones could be hidden? Sad when one of the existing ones gets archived?

 

You can thank couch potato loggers for a percentage of that angst. For fans of virtual caches, it DOES hurt some else's game

 

While virtual cache owners should be attentive to the logs, unlike physical caches they cannot be adopted or otherwise replaced when an owner for whatever reason cannot do so during a particular period of time. If conditions have changed so that the virtual logging requirements no longer can be done, that is where maintenance is essential under any circumstance. But when the actions that precipitate a virtual cache being archived are armchair logs, the initial responsibility lies with those who have decided to ignore the guidelines requiring people to visit the site.

 

Again, to quote Miss Jenn when she listed common misconceptions about couch potato logs:

 

It's the owner's responsibility to remove bonus logs".

 

That's true. It is also true that the searchers of a geocache have some responsibility to keep it alive. For a physical cache that means avoiding that muggles see you while getting the cache and re-hiding the cache properly. For a virtual cache that means visiting the location and not posting the verification info in your log.

 

When either party does not take their responsibility seriously, it can affect my game. Contributing to the destruction of something that cannot be replaced is never a "net positive." So again, if I got an email asking me to assist in doing something that negatively affects my favorite type of cache, then my response may not be as polite as I usually like to be.

Edited by geodarts

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I don't understand how fake logs on virtual caches which aren't being maintained affect you? Virtuals that aren't being maintained should be archived just as any other type of cache that isn't being maintained should be archived.

 

Just to be clear, it looks like this virtual is well maintained. On top of that i don't think answers can be found online and as mentioned in the listing there is "something" in the questions that requires people to actually go there. :P

 

Just to make a point to be clear; I suspect that this was a misquote as the quote in question was from later down the thread, confused, I may be :P ? The cache from the original post may be well maintained but the cache(s) further down the line may not have been from how I read the posts.

 

I concur that virtuals that are being actively maintained shouldn't be archived or falsely logged but I would add that virtuals that aren't being actively maintained should go to the wall like any other cache that isn't being actively maintained.

 

Happy caching.

 

Cheers

 

Schnuz.

 

Hahaarrgghh yeah goin' to PIRATEMANIA 9 (not that it's been arranged yet, more details in the future)? Be thar or be keel hauled!

The only MEGA PIRATE event in the UK to attend?

 

Hahaarrgghh, be seein' yah thar yah filthy landlubber!

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I report any sketchy emails like that directly to Groundspeak. As far as I'm concerned, it's spam.

 

Do you know if that has helped?

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If fake logs bring unmaintained caches into the spotlight, that's a net positive.

 

On the other hand, if fake logs ar becoming such a nuisance that they make a CO archive it affects honest cachers.

4 examples: Melbourne Music Trivia Melbourne Music Trivia #2 Melbourne Movie Trivia Melbourne Television Trivia.

 

After deciding or holiday destination we began working on solving mysteries and virtuals. Some took a lot of time to solve and then 4 weeks before we left home these 4 were archived because of armchair cheaters. The caches are/were well maintained and logs got deleted but it seems the cheaters kept going on as the listings were also locked to make sure logging was no longer possible. I found this out a few days after logging these virtuals (as notes, not founds) via API and didn't see my log online.

 

Do cheaters affect caching? They sure do.

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