Logbook missing. Did I find it?

[+bingothebountyhunter]

I need some help here

 

Today I found a geocache but maybe I didn't? It was a bison attached to fishing line which in turn was tied to a signpost. The problem being that the body of the geocache and therefore the logbook with had become unscrewed/detached and must have fallen inside the signpost itself meaning it couldn't be reached.

 

I have undoubtedly found part of the container (the lid) but not the logbook. Do I claim the find or not?

 

I wouldn't normally sweat but I'm now 3 or 4 away from my 3000 milestone do unless I decide it's going to impact on what my milestone geocache is?!

 

I'm in two minds about what the right thing to do is? I'd be interested in the views of others.

[+Sagefox]

I need some help here... I'm in two minds about what the right thing to do is? I'd be interested in the views of others.

You found a substantial part of the cache - the lid hanging by a line in it's presumably intended location and it is a standard type of hide type and container. Nothing special. I would log it as found. I usually have small ziplocs with me which could be zipped tight around the lid with a temporary log inside. That would be a nice touch but, in this case, not necessary for the Found It. Your posted log will tell the CO what you found and they can then fix the situation.

 

People often get carried away with this must sign the log business. The cache IS the cache. The log is merely a proof that you found the cache. Your description of what you found should be proof enough.

 

Some situations are different. I found a cache once with only the posted coordinates and no page information. It was locked and the combo was on the cache page. I didn't log that as found because it was a clearly intended that we needed to get the combo from the page.

 

On the other hand, I once found a pvc pipe cache that the lid was screwed on too tight, as can easily happen with pvc. I signed the pipe and logged it as found because it was not intended that special tools were needed to get the container open.

[+Manville Possum]

I need some help here

 

Today I found a geocache but maybe I didn't? It was a bison attached to fishing line which in turn was tied to a signpost. The problem being that the body of the geocache and therefore the logbook with had become unscrewed/detached and must have fallen inside the signpost itself meaning it couldn't be reached.

 

I have undoubtedly found part of the container (the lid) but not the logbook. Do I claim the find or not?

 

I wouldn't normally sweat but I'm now 3 or 4 away from my 3000 milestone do unless I decide it's going to impact on what my milestone geocache is?!

 

I'm in two minds about what the right thing to do is? I'd be interested in the views of others.

 

Claim your find and include in your log what you have here and post a NM on the cache. That is what I would do.

[+TriciaG]

Normally I'd say no - that a lid isn't the cache, and you don't know that that lid goes with the cache and isn't some random piece of garbage. But with a bison tube, it's pretty obvious that was the cache's top.

 

I wouldn't log it a find, but I wouldn't look down on someone who does.

[+Touchstone]

Just my 0.02, but I usually just post a NM log in a case like that. I'm not sure where someone would draw the line going by the justifications above. I've found fragments of caches, once all glued back together, I could call it a cache. Likewise, I suppose, I could sign a piece of the broken plastic, but that's not what caching is about for me. I've seen people log Finds after finding remnants of velcro or magnets. It all depends where you draw that line I guess.

[Pup Patrol]

If it was me, I wouldn't log it as a "find".

 

Just finding remnants doesn't constitute a cache to me. A lid, a wire, a magnet, etc...just bits and pieces. Of what? Who knows?

 

I would log a "Needs Maintenance" only and let the cache owner deal with it.

 

 

B.

[+dprovan]

Why would you bother to claim the find? You yourself are questioning whether it's a find, so why try to convince yourself it is? Especially when you're closing in on a milestone, why would you claim a find that makes the milestone uncertain? And that's before you consider the fact that the CO has the right to reject your claim since you didn't sign the log, thus moving your milestone unexpectedly. Besides, what if that wasn't the cache, but only a red herring?

 

So my initial answer is simply that it's not worth worrying about, just don't claim it. Furthermore, no, I wouldn't claim that as a find if it were me any more than I would claim it if I'd only found a frayed fishing line with no top attached. But, on the other hand, I understand the logic and wouldn't contest the find if it were my cache (although I would appreciate an NM alerting me to the problem).

[+MartyBartfast]

The only other person who counts in this decision is the CO, message/mail them and tell them what happened and ask if they're cool with you logging a find, if so do it, if not don't (because if you do they might delete the find).

 

FWIW I have found a cache in exactly the same condition, and when I reported it to the CO he thanked me and told me to log a find - which I did.

[+kunarion]

If it was me, I wouldn't log it as a "find".

 

Just finding remnants doesn't constitute a cache to me. A lid, a wire, a magnet, etc...just bits and pieces. Of what? Who knows?

 

I would log a "Needs Maintenance" only and let the cache owner deal with it.

 

 

B.

+1

 

I had a bison tube in a post hole (existing hole) in the middle of a busy picnic spot. Fake "rusted bolt & washer" endcaps, a tricky one. Plus I placed a little tab of Velcro under a nearby picnic table because I was being very naughty. People found the Velcro, assumed the cache was missing. Some even fashioned their own "replacement log sheet" and put it into a soda bottle cap, "The Cache Container Cap" they found on the ground. I wish they'd take the challenge of finding the actual cache, instead of logging that they Found a bottle cap. The cache was no bottle cap.

Edited November 15, 2015 by kunarion

[+K13]

The OP found something. That may have been a very well-crafted decoy, a prior failed attempt at a cache. or maybe the remnants of the cache he sought. In the way I Geocache, without signing the log, no cache was found.

 

How many of your 2,99x prior finds were like this one? Treat it in the same way you did in the past.

[+Harry Dolphin]

I would log NM. I would not log a Found It.

[+bingothebountyhunter]

Thanks everyone, your input is much appreciated.

 

Based on the feedback, I will not log the geocache. It's certainly better to have a doubtful dnf than a doubtful find. I can always go back and find it properly once the maintenance has been carried out.

[Pup Patrol]

I need some help here

 

Today I found a geocache but maybe I didn't? It was a bison attached to fishing line which in turn was tied to a signpost. The problem being that the body of the geocache and therefore the logbook with had become unscrewed/detached and must have fallen inside the signpost itself meaning it couldn't be reached.

 

I have undoubtedly found part of the container (the lid) but not the logbook. Do I claim the find or not?

 

I wouldn't normally sweat but I'm now 3 or 4 away from my 3000 milestone do unless I decide it's going to impact on what my milestone geocache is?!

 

I'm in two minds about what the right thing to do is? I'd be interested in the views of others.

 

You own 24 caches.

 

What is your opinion as a cache owner? What would you think if people posted "found it" on a cache that you own if they only found the lid?

 

What would you do if someone only found the first stage of your multicache, and logged "found it"?

 

 

B.

Edited November 15, 2015 by Pup Patrol

[+tallglenn]

You obviously found the cache. The log wasn't signable, so post a NM with your found log. If you didn't take a picture, you can describe the cache to the owner if s/he requires proof you were there. I would log it as found. Can you "find" something if you already know where it is??? When you return to sign the log, you are returning, you haven't "found" it a second time IMHO.

[+the3gmen]

I own one of these types of caches. It goes missing quite a bit due to it's location. The cacher found the hardware that I used to hang the bison tube (and sent me a picture). They asked if it was ok to log it as a find. I told them to go ahead. I wouldn't have been bothered if they had just logged the find and mentioned the situation is their log.

[+niraD]

You obviously found the cache.

I'm not sure it's all that obvious.

 

It could be the remains of a decoy. It could be the remains of an archived cache, or the remains of a stage of an archived multi-cache.

 

On the plus side, it probably isn't a random bit of trash. I've seen that a few times, where someone assumed that they found the cache or part of the cache, but they really found a bit of trash. Sometimes a random plastic container/lid is just trash. But a Bison tube lid tied to a post probably isn't a random bit of trash.

 

Still, it isn't obvious to me that it is the cache.

[+Sagefox]

You obviously found the cache.

I'm not sure it's all that obvious.

 

It could be the remains of a decoy. It could be the remains of an archived cache, or the remains of a stage of an archived multi-cache.

Sure, it could be one of these things but that is not likely the case. And if it was one of these or any of the other of the not likely situations mentioned here it would be simple enough to change your log once one of these situations is confirmed.

[+K13]

A Geocache is a container with a log sheet, not the lid of a container hanging on a string. Why do so many people feel they are entitled to a smilie every time they attempt to find a geocache? OP found a lid. No container, No log sheet.

 

Instead of looking for ways to justify a smilie, why not log a DNF and move on to the next cache, hoping it will be there, intact, for you to find?

[+Mudfrog]

You obviously found the cache. The log wasn't signable, so post a NM with your found log. If you didn't take a picture, you can describe the cache to the owner if s/he requires proof you were there. I would log it as found. Can you "find" something if you already know where it is??? When you return to sign the log, you are returning, you haven't "found" it a second time IMHO.

 

There's a good chance this lid was part of the cache. Honestly though, without talking to someone who knows, the OP can't be 100% positive. It just might be something else. I certainly wouldn't say that the OP "obviously found the cache".

 

In this case, i'd log both, my Did Not Find and a Needs Maintenance.

[+WarNinjas]

It really ends up with how the CO feels. I bet 75% of the time if you logged you found the lid and all that the CO would tell you to go ahead and log the find. I know we would. Unless the place was so cool I thought you would really want to go back and pull up the fishing string again. If it was one of our caches I would feel bad because you did your part, went there, looked for it, found it. It would be our bad for it not being right.

Now if it was one stage of a multi or a decoy then no but if it was the cache (I am guessing it was) We would want you to log it and not have to go back just to sign the log that we failed to have available at the time.

I would log the DNF and maybe ask if it was the cache and/or contact the CO and see what they think.

[+dprovan]

It's certainly better to have a doubtful dnf than a doubtful find.

That's a good way to put it.

 

I can always go back and find it properly once the maintenance has been carried out.

Exactly. I have to admit, I logged some not-quite-found finds like this in my early days, but after a couple of times of walking past after the cache was restored, it dawned on me all I'd done was waste a perfectly good opportunity to find a cache.

 

It really ends up with how the CO feels.

If the question is "Can I get away with logging this non-find?", then I agree it's up to the CO. But I think the better question is "Why in the world do I want to log this find?", and if you can't come up with an answer, you don't have to bother the CO about it.

[+terratin]

I would log a DNF and a Needs Maintenance to alarm the owner that the cache is damaged and needs replacement. But I would log a DNF on any cache where I found remnants of, but could not sign the logbook. I mean, I don't log a found either because I see a cache up in a tree but I can't go up to sign the logbook.

Edited November 16, 2015 by terratin

[+justintim1999]

I own one of these types of caches. It goes missing quite a bit due to it's location. The cacher found the hardware that I used to hang the bison tube (and sent me a picture). They asked if it was ok to log it as a find. I told them to go ahead. I wouldn't have been bothered if they had just logged the find and mentioned the situation is their log.

 

I'm with him.

[+JL_HSTRE]

Finding a string with a bison lid attached is grounds in my book for a find, so long as the finder has no reason to think the bison is not the current cache. It may be obvious from the description, hint, rating, and past logs.

 

If it had just been a plastic lid, a string with nothing attached, or chopped up remains of maybe used to be a cache then definitely not. The lid of an ammo can, the melted remains of a preform, a bag of cache contents (log & swag) with the container muggled yes. I tend to evaluate these situations on a case by case basis based on level of confidence about what I found.

 

When in doubt I would discuss with the CO. If they told me the cache was not a bison or what I found was not the cache I would have no problem logging a DNF instead.

 

Regardless, it would get a NM too.

[+Sagefox]

If it had just been a plastic lid, a string with nothing attached, or chopped up remains of maybe used to be a cache then definitely not.

 

I tend to evaluate these situations on a case by case basis based on level of confidence about what I found.

Yes. There are not many bison tubes hanging by monofilament in signposts that are not geocaches.

[TahoeJoe]

In my opinion, a geocache is more than a logbook. I like to find geocaches that take me somewhere interesting or show me something new. Some geocaches I close not to log as I believe not much thought went into the placement of the cache. If I found a cache missing a logbook but otherwise had a enjoyable experience finding it, I would log the find with a NM. Ultimately it’s up to you to do what feels right to you.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

If it had just been a plastic lid, a string with nothing attached, or chopped up remains of maybe used to be a cache then definitely not.

 

I tend to evaluate these situations on a case by case basis based on level of confidence about what I found.

Yes. There are not many bison tubes hanging by monofilament in signposts that are not geocaches.

 

A couple of years ago I searched several times for a cache while I was on a week long vacation (it was just across the road from where I was staying). My GPS zero'd in on a small pine tree, where I found several pieces of heavy twine an ribbon. There was also a watering hose with the end at the base of the tree. I was *sure* that the cache had been attached to the tree using one of those ribbons/pieces of twine but had been found and removed by a park maintenance working. I finally found the cache in another tree about 40 feet away.

 

 

[+niraD]

A couple of years ago I searched several times for a cache while I was on a week long vacation (it was just across the road from where I was staying). My GPS zero'd in on a small pine tree, where I found several pieces of heavy twine an ribbon. There was also a watering hose with the end at the base of the tree. I was *sure* that the cache had been attached to the tree using one of those ribbons/pieces of twine but had been found and removed by a park maintenance working. I finally found the cache in another tree about 40 feet away.

Sounds familiar. There have been several times where I've been convinced that I had found the remains (or empty hiding spot) of a muggled cache. Usually, I was wrong, and the cache was elsewhere.

[+noncentric]

I own one of these types of caches. It goes missing quite a bit due to it's location. The cacher found the hardware that I used to hang the bison tube (and sent me a picture). They asked if it was ok to log it as a find. I told them to go ahead. I wouldn't have been bothered if they had just logged the find and mentioned the situation is their log.

 

I'm with him.

 

+1

I would email the CO and send a description of what I found, and offer to email a photo if desired. I'd ask the CO to confirm whether what I found was indeed the cache (or part of it) and whether s/he was okay with me logging a find if it was the cache. I'm usually at least one week behind in logging finds anyway, so it's not like I couldn't wait a while for the CO to respond. If the CO says I can log the find, then I will. If the CO says not to log or the CO doesn't respond, then I'd log a DNF+NM.

[+Mudfrog]

If it had just been a plastic lid, a string with nothing attached, or chopped up remains of maybe used to be a cache then definitely not.

 

I tend to evaluate these situations on a case by case basis based on level of confidence about what I found.

Yes. There are not many bison tubes hanging by monofilament in signposts that are not geocaches.

 

Not many but there's always that chance. In most situations, a person who finds part of a container cannot be 100% positive it was part of the actual cache. I have found lids, bottoms, items that could have been swag, pieces of camo tape, velcro, etc,,, that i figured were part of the original cache. I never logged a find on any of these because i knew i didn't find the cache as the CO intended. Glad i didn't because i've later found that some of these things turned out NOT to be part of the cache.

 

Let's face it, those out for numbers, those not wanting to return to ground zero, and/or those needing the cache for a challenge will probably log it found. Heck, they could find just the piece of monofilament and still log it.

[Pup Patrol]

Posting a "needs maintenance" on the cache page alerts not only the cache owner, but also other cachers.

 

There's nothing wrong with posting the NM for such a situation.

 

B.

[+redsox_mark]

I own a bison cache which had the same thing happen to it. The first cacher to "find" it logged a find and a NM. Four other cachers would find it in that state, all logging a find over the next couple of weeks before I replaced it. As a CO I had no issue with this.

 

But as has been said, if you have doubts about it, don't claim a find.