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Newbie Question: Why Mark a Cache as Premium Only?


connah0047

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Hi all! I'm a premium member newbie and have a quick question. When creating one's own cache, there is an option to allow it to only be accessed by premium members. What would be some reasons that one would select the premium members only option? Is the idea perhaps to set this option on really "good" caches to encourage non-members to subscribe? Just curious.

 

Lastly, as mentioned above, I've only recently discovered Geocaching and am already hooked. From what little time I have spent so far on these forums and communicating with volunteer reviewers, I have been very impressed with the level of assistance and kindness that folks offer. Just wanted to thank all you forum members for your contributions and for taking the time to answer questions. :D Hope you're all having a great week.

 

Kindly,

 

Matthew / connah0047

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Many geocachers choose the PMO option to avoid that the cache may disappear quicker... and the stats confirm it somehow.

There is also the idea that a Premium Member has a long term commitment with the game, instead of most of the new geocachers using mobile phone apps that may find some few caches before choosing another trendy hobby. They may also write better and longer logs and handle better the cache they found, by instance.

Edited by RuideAlmeida
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What would be some reasons that one would select the premium members only option? Is the idea perhaps to set this option on really "good" caches to encourage non-members to subscribe? Just curious.

As mentioned, people have to be paid members to see the cache listed, so perhaps there will tend to be finders who know what the game is about. Although the ability to checkmark "PMO" is no guarantee of a great cache, PMO may be used in addition to some other attribute (such as a well-hidden, quality container), with the intention that there will not be a lot of traffic to the cache, to make it less of a maintenance challenge.

 

PMO caches have the added feature of an audit log, showing who visits the cache page. When I see recent extra hits from cachers, I might make a special trip to clean off the leaves (or pile on more leaves, as the case may be :anicute:), or restock the container, to be sure it's just right, ready for visitors.

Edited by kunarion
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In the field, I see no marked difference in quality between PMO caches and non-PMO caches.
Most of the reasons I've heard for making a cache PMO have nothing to do with its quality.

 

They generally have more to do with limiting how many people visit the cache site, or with limiting who visits the cache site.

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What would be some reasons that one would select the premium members only option?

There is some debate whether PMO status really protects a cache, as premium members are not always better at replacing caches and/or writing logs. Conversely, not all basic members are poor replacers/loggers. Of course, there are assumptions that the occurrence of careless cachers is higher among basic members. Some threads that have delved into this topic are here and here.

 

Is the idea perhaps to set this option on really "good" caches to encourage non-members to subscribe? Just curious.

I'm not sure if the idea is to encourage Premium membership, since Basic members may not even realize how many caches they are missing out on. I think the official Geocaching app is the only one that allows Basic members to see the approximate location of PMO caches, but I might be wrong. I don't have a sock-puppet Basic account to test.

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For me personally, I try to personalize every single cache I make. The most expensive ones (i.e. the painted ammo box or handmade book clock) are Premium Member Only because it protects them from excessive handling and the Intro App users.

 

*Edited for clarity

Edited by KaRue
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There is some debate whether PMO status really protects a cache, as premium members are not always better at replacing caches and/or writing logs. Conversely, not all basic members are poor replacers/loggers.

It's not a question of absolutes, merely statistical: yes, there are exceptions, but more premium members are more experienced and more careful, while more basic members don't know how to be careful and aren't committed to the hobby, so will tend to be less concerned about not screwing a cache up.

 

And even if you think all cachers are equal, as mentioned in one of the first posts in one of the threads you cited, there's also the fact that if N% of the members are basic members, then making a cache PMO will mean %N fewer cachers go there to look for it, thus eliminating N out of 100 chances for the cache to be damaged or compromised.

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In the field, I see no marked difference in quality between PMO caches and non-PMO caches.
Most of the reasons I've heard for making a cache PMO have nothing to do with its quality.

 

They generally have more to do with limiting how many people visit the cache site, or with limiting who visits the cache site.

 

What is the purpose of limiting who visits or how many people visit if it isn't to preserve the quality of the cache in some fashion?

 

Usually the PMO people at least try to pretend it's not about excluding others, but refreshing to hear an honest point of view.

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What is the purpose of limiting who visits or how many people visit if it isn't to preserve the quality of the cache in some fashion?

The other reason for limiting visits, which is what I hear more often, is to protect the environment around the cache. That can range from reducing the number of people tromping through the grass to limiting the number of times a day someone will be seen poking around in some busy metropolitan spot.

 

(I'm not really sure that's really logical, since it only reduces traffic by a fraction, not an order of magnitude or anything, but that's the argument I tend to hear.)

 

People that advocate PMOs in order to preserve cache quality normally base that on the statistical difference in talent, not the raw number of visitors. I mentioned considering the raw numbers in my last post, but that wasn't meant to imply that PMO advocates use that argument, only that they could use that argument if it turned out that the perceived difference in talent was illusionary.

 

Usually the PMO people at least try to pretend it's not about excluding others, but refreshing to hear an honest point of view.

Really? My impression is that most PMO advocates are quite upfront that the whole point of PMOs is to be exclusive. They have no reason to be coy about that: it's not as if the exclusion is based on something arbitrary like race or gender.

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In the field, I see no marked difference in quality between PMO caches and non-PMO caches.
Most of the reasons I've heard for making a cache PMO have nothing to do with its quality.

 

They generally have more to do with limiting how many people visit the cache site, or with limiting who visits the cache site.

What is the purpose of limiting who visits or how many people visit if it isn't to preserve the quality of the cache in some fashion?
I don't think the first meaning of "quality" (seeing a marked difference) is quite the same thing as the second meaning of "quality" (preserved by limiting visits).

 

The first meaning of "quality" (from the seeker's perspective) is usually about the cache standing out from others because of better craftsmanship, a better location, better camouflage, better trade items, a better cache description, etc. There is no requirement that only "quality" caches be PMO.

 

The second meaning of "quality" (from the owner's perspective) is about not needing owner maintenance. It's about finders closing the cache correctly, re-hiding the cache correctly in its original location, trading fairly, etc. This is the "quality" that owners are trying to maintain.

 

Usually the PMO people at least try to pretend it's not about excluding others, but refreshing to hear an honest point of view.
Well, there is no setting to exclude muggles with apps, so some owners use the PMO setting instead.

 

And others aren't trying to exclude anyone in particular; they're just trying to reduce traffic to the cache location in general. I've owners use puzzles for much the same reason, not because they wanted a puzzle cache, but because they didn't want a rush of traffic to the cache location, and making it a puzzle cache did that. But making a cache PMO can have a similar effect.

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been awhile since commenting, so i'll just jump in here - seems like a good place to start again...

personally use multis or puzzles for my cemetery hides deliberately to keep the newbie app cachers from racing around the cemeteries without showing proper respect for both the place they are at and the cache hunting process itself.

IMO, if they have the patience & take the time for figuring out a field puzzle or multi, then recamouflage and stealth will be observed more readily... i reserve using PMO's to deflect undue negative press towards geocaching on compromised/difficult caches...

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It's not a question of absolutes, merely statistical: yes, there are exceptions, but more premium members are more experienced and more careful, while more basic members don't know how to be careful and aren't committed to the hobby, so will tend to be less concerned about not screwing a cache up.

Can you provide a link to this statistical analysis? I'm sure it is interesting reading!

 

From what I have seen many people become PM shortly after signing up (while still n00bs).

 

I do like the whole let someone else deal with the newbs mentality. That should keep the sport going!

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It's not a question of absolutes, merely statistical: yes, there are exceptions, but more premium members are more experienced and more careful, while more basic members don't know how to be careful and aren't committed to the hobby, so will tend to be less concerned about not screwing a cache up.

Can you provide a link to this statistical analysis? I'm sure it is interesting reading!

I wasn't claiming it was analyzed, merely that that's the logic behind the thinking. Personally, I think it's well founded, but I'm only prepared to assert that it's a reasonable attitude even if it can't be supported by formal analysis.

 

From what I have seen many people become PM shortly after signing up (while still n00bs).

I agree it's not as big a difference as one might think, but the key is that it keeps away the people that don't get into geocaching enough to pay for it. So it's not really difference between newbies and established cachers so much as the difference between muggles that are exploring geocaching and actual geocachers, however inexperienced.

 

If the environment around a cache is sensitive, there ought not to be a cache there.

You can argue about whether that's true in any specific case, but as I pointed out in my original comment, the environment we're talking about isn't necessarily a sensitive natural area that can't support the number of visits that a geocache would generate.

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I'm a relative newbie and I marked two of mine as PMO because I wanted people who were a bit more careful and interested in caching to find them rather than kids with apps. Is that wrong? Perhaps, but maybe because I was new to hiding as well as finding, I was being a bit cautious. I have another cache which I'm planning but am in two minds as to whether to make it PMO or not. It will be an ammo box and I'm a bit wary about it going missing.

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I made just recently one of my old multi caches PMO. Someone with finds numbering in the single digits found stage one of 13 and logged it as a find... twice. He also posted a photo of the paper showing the coordinates that were in that stage. I deleted the logs and sent a note. A day later he logged it again complete with the spoiler photo. I'll give him a month or so to learn the game or quit, then switch it back to public.

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If the environment around a cache is sensitive, there ought not to be a cache there.

You can argue about whether that's true in any specific case, but as I pointed out in my original comment, the environment we're talking about isn't necessarily a sensitive natural area that can't support the number of visits that a geocache would generate.

 

If you don't want people going to a place, don't put a cache there.

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If you don't want people going to a place, don't put a cache there.
What if you want some people going to a place, but not hordes of people going to a place?

 

What if you want considerate people going to a place, but not swarms of slash-and-burn numbers-run cachers?

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If you don't want people going to a place, don't put a cache there.
What if you want some people going to a place, but not hordes of people going to a place?

 

What if you want considerate people going to a place, but not swarms of slash-and-burn numbers-run cachers?

 

All of the people who belong to caching "hordes" around here seem to have premium memberships, or at least enough of them that it isn't a barrier to those who don't.

 

If you want a few select people to go to a place, tell them about it privately.

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I'm seeing more and more caches marked premium only. I think a big reason is to keep them from appearing in the intro app.

 

That is why my listings are PMO. It weeds out the newbies with the intro app. :anibad:

For one of mine in particular, that was part of the plan. It's a few yards from a soccer field that has hundreds of bored kids at times. No cache container can remain there, it gets found and destroyed or taken. So after the last cache in the area was archived, I challenged myself to make a cache that endures, based on things I've learned from trying to keep my own caches there. This is a cool spot for a cache, my plan is simply to add some barriers. But it is listed on Geocaching.com, and I want cachers to find it.

 

And I want cachers to find it next time, too.

 

So it's got several layers of toughness:

 

It's PMO. Kids loading an App during the soccer game won't see this listing.

It's a Mystery/Unknown. Cachers require a quickie, so a “?” gets ignored.

It has two Garmin Chirp stages. You have to be especially determined to find a Chirp cache, and even if you are, Chirp might not work for you today.

It's uber-aggressively hidden. Scary well. No more 3-year-olds opening the box and dragging it around. I sure got tired of that.

It's got accurate D/T, and it's quiet and stocked and ready, and hasn't been found in a year.

 

Of course, it's an ammo can.

Edited by kunarion
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Most of ours are available to anyone. Pretty much all puzzles as you already have to do some work to find it. We will however make them premium if it is in a high muggle area, is a container that will be hard to make a replacement or if it is kind of far from home so we don't drive by it all the time. Seems to help.

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One reason some caches are made PMO is that the CO hopes to make it a regular stop for TB's. If you've spent the money on a premium membership, you're more likely to have spent some time looking all over the Groundspeak website, and hopefully understand what travel bugs are and how to log/move them properly. It's no guarantee of course, but more likely.

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I am surprised by this whole thread, since this topic has come up for years. I don't have a smart phone and was unaware of the intro app "problem" but I have used the PMO feature in the past. Only Pontiac CZ has touched on the main reason this feature has been used over the years: vandals. Years ago I had the first stage of a very complex and involved multi disappear. It had a lot of clue material needed to solve the rest of the multi. I replaced it and it went missing again almost immediately. Then I found out that all the non-PMO caches in the area had also disappeared. There was obviously someone there who didn't like geocachers coming around, even though it was a public area and non residential in nature. They must have figured out what geocaching was and how to locate nearby caches and then removed them. I moved my cache slightly, made it PMO and didn't have any problems after that. Now, I mostly hide puzzles, and this isn't a problem. I welcome newbies to find my caches, although I agree that they tend to write poor logs and not take the time to learn geocaching etiquette.

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i mark premium caches when i make a gadget cache or one that ive put a lot of time in to it prevents a nubie from finding it destroying it then quiting the game or to prevent a younger less mature person finding it and be a kid with it. also it rewards the people pay for the app a special reward

 

Many of us who are Premium Members do not use an app, paid app nor free intro app. Your reason is as bad as your grammar, spelling and sentence structure. :ph34r:

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If you want to cut down on cache, especially by newbies, then hide a multi or puzzle. It doesn't even have to be very difficult; simply not being a traditional will cause many to skip it.

That's what I've done. I put the coords for the cache within a micro/small traditional cache (wrote them on the inside of the lid). The "mystery" cache is on the same path, going back to the car. Basically, it's a multicache, but you get a smiley for finding the first stage. :laughing:

 

I'm surprised by how many people find the traditional but skip right over the mystery cache.

Edited by TriciaG
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@TriciaG

I'm intrigued by this idea. But doesn't this entail have to put out a trad anyway that's susceptible to noobs with intro apps? And if the vandalize that cache doesn't it render the multi unworkable?

 

Also, how do you handle the posted coords for the multi? If you lust them as the traditional, don't the icons stack up over each other?

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@TriciaG

I'm intrigued by this idea. But doesn't this entail have to put out a trad anyway that's susceptible to noobs with intro apps? And if the vandalize that cache doesn't it render the multi unworkable?

 

Also, how do you handle the posted coords for the multi? If you lust them as the traditional, don't the icons stack up over each other?

Yes, it entails putting out a traditional that can be messed up by an intro app newbie. And yes, the mystery would be messed up if the traditional went missing. But it's a fair hike from the parking area to the traditional, so not many tween, app cachers find it anyway. :)

 

And it's not a multi; it's a mystery. The posted coords for the mystery are in a somewhat random spot, not at the location of the traditional.

 

If you want to see them, the traditional is GC53ZBD and the mystery is GC53ZCD.

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If my cache is big enough to hold a TB then I make it PMO. Gives a better chance of the TBs being treated properly.

 

Micros and nanos are free for all.

 

Yes, many issues have been hashed and rehashed, but TBS haven't been mentioned much.

 

Premium members *tend* to be more serious and experienced and are less likely to lose TBS or let their kids keep them. TB buyers invest money to enjoy seeing TBS travel, not to have n00bs lose them.

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Thanks Tricia for the feedback and the GC #s!

?

If you're interested in this type of cache 'series', here is another example of 3 associated caches that I've found. They are in rural, out-of-the-way areas that should be relatively safe from muggles.

 

Have to find 2 traditionals (GC48EGV, GC48EHH) to get the coords for the mystery cache (GC48EJJ). Lat coords are in one trad and Long coords in the other.

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Hi all! I'm a premium member newbie and have a quick question. When creating one's own cache, there is an option to allow it to only be accessed by premium members. What would be some reasons that one would select the premium members only option? Is the idea perhaps to set this option on really "good" caches to encourage non-members to subscribe? Just curious.

 

Lastly, as mentioned above, I've only recently discovered Geocaching and am already hooked. From what little time I have spent so far on these forums and communicating with volunteer reviewers, I have been very impressed with the level of assistance and kindness that folks offer. Just wanted to thank all you forum members for your contributions and for taking the time to answer questions. :D Hope you're all having a great week.

 

Kindly,

 

Matthew / connah0047

 

Every single one of my caches I publish as premium only. I do this because of the audit log. I can see who looks att new cache page. Especially for puzzles, it's nice to see who has looked before its found. It gives you and idea on who is working at it.

 

There are times I will changed this back to "public" after its found.

 

I have several caches in areas I consider special or out of the way. These would stay Premium for maintenance purposes. I have one cache that is on an abandoned airstrip, on what is Air Force land, but managed by the BLM. In an agreement I made with the manager to bring people here by placing a geocache, it stays premium. This was done to help prevent vandalism and things.

 

My opinion isn't that Premium only caches are better or that premium members care more or anything g like that. It's more of a 'security' thing for a lot of people. There are premium members who do not care, and there are basic member who are more respectful than some premium members. However, it is a common belief that the odds of your cache needing maintence significantly decrease when it is set to premium. I think of it this way: its between those who have a strong enough like for the hobby to pay a few for it and anyone with a smartphone. Neither of those is BAD but one tends to have better odds for maintence.

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