Puzzle caches listed under other cache categories?

[+Pond Bird]

Sometimes I see listings for caches that need a puzzle to be solved. The cache itself is not listed as a Mystery cache? Anyone else wondering why this happens? Sometimes a puzzle cache is considered a multi cache. My question is, what would be the protocol for seeing a puzzle cache listing that is considered a multi, or a letterbox hybrid instead of a "Mystery" cache?

[+T.D.M.22]

Generally if you have to solve a puzzle before you go to look for the cache it's an unknown. If you have to go out and solve it in the field, it could be a trad, with the field puzzle attribute, or if there's multiple locations it could be a multi. The specifics are usually regional. If there's a problem, the reviewer will usually catch it. In wouldn't worry about it.

[+niraD]

For letterbox hybrid caches that include clues, I don't know that there is a good way to distinguish them from the letterbox hybrid caches that are at the posted coordinates. You just need to read the cache description to see whether you go to the posted coordinates and search, or whether you go to the posted coordinates and start following clues.

 

For older caches that were listed as traditional or multi-caches, but which would be listed as mystery/puzzle caches today, I don't think there's anything you can do either. The cache owners aren't likely to update these old cache listings.

 

But for newer caches that use the existing attributes, you might be able to identify some of them using an attribute search. Likely attributes include:

Field Puzzle

Special Tool Required

Teamwork Required

[+noncentric]

Might help if you could provide some examples?

 

Some caches are questionable about whether they are a multi (with a field puzzle) or if they are a puzzle/mystery cache. In some cases, it might be an older cache that was published before the distinctions were clear.

[+Pork King]

I own the listing for one such example. It is an older traditional cache created in 2004 that was adopted to me, then I later adopted it out, then later it was adopted back to me again. At some point, a puzzle was added to gain the final coordinates ( a simple UTM projection). I've talked with a couple of different reviewers who are reluctant to change the cache type, as it would affect the previous finders' stats.

 

I've toyed with the idea of either archiving it and making a new puzzle or multi using the same cache page, but as there aren't many out of area cachers that visit the area, and the locals that have found it wouldn't get anything new out of it, I've decided against that.

 

I've also thought about removing the offset coordinates and changing it back to a real traditional, but then I'd have to change the D/T rating to reflect the ease of the cache, and I've dealt with that headache from the "grid-fillers". The people who have found it seem to like it, so I don't see the harm in this one particular cache being a little mis-labeled.

Edited October 23, 2015 by Pork King

[+niraD]

The specifics are usually regional.

Yep. Around here, a multi-stage cache where you get the final coordinates by copying information from an existing sign is routinely listed as a multi-cache. When I visited Massachusetts a few years ago, such caches were routinely listed as mystery/puzzle caches.

 

And I've seen examples that go the other way, where I would expect them to be listed as mystery/puzzle caches (based on local-to-me practices), but they were listed as multi-caches (based on local-to-them practices).

[+frinklabs]

Might help if you could provide some examples?

 

Does this one count?

 

407ETR at Bayview

[+noncentric]

Might help if you could provide some examples?

 

Does this one count?

 

407ETR at Bayview

 

Hhmmm. I would categorize that one as a Mystery, but can see how it has a 'multi' aspect because one has to go to the listed cords first. It seems similar to this one. I agree that it's likely a regional practice. If I was to create a cache similar to my example, then I'd probably list it as Mystery as well, since that is what I've seen in my area. This just perpetuates the regional trend.

 

My original post was directed to the OP, but a couple other replies posted while I was composing and so I ended up as post #4 instead of post #2.

[+barefootjeff]

I agonised for ages over whether this one of mine GC61HCN, where you match photos to waypoints to get the final coordinates, should be a field-puzzle multi or a mystery, but in the end went for mystery as there was another nearby mystery cache (GC5FXTK) that used the same method. I must admit, though, that I had the Beatles song "Magical Mystery Tour" in my head when I was placing it, which inspired the cache title, so making it a mystery fitted in with that . In any case, the reviewer accepted my choice and the sky hasn't fallen.

[+.Flo.]

I agonised for ages over whether this one of mine GC61HCN, where you match photos to waypoints to get the final coordinates, should be a field-puzzle multi or a mystery, but in the end went for mystery as there was another nearby mystery cache (GC5FXTK) that used the same method. I must admit, though, that I had the Beatles song "Magical Mystery Tour" in my head when I was placing it, which inspired the cache title, so making it a mystery fitted in with that . In any case, the reviewer accepted my choice and the sky hasn't fallen.

 

There are several of that kind where I live, and they're listed as multi caches. Makes sense to me.

[+BlackRose67]

There's the other way around as well.

 

I am planning on creating a multi using various bits of technology, but no tags.

Because there will be no alternate way to find the cache (i.e. no tags) the guidelines state it has to be listed as a Mystery cache, when in reality it will be a 3+ point multi.

[+narcissa]

Sometimes I see listings for caches that need a puzzle to be solved. The cache itself is not listed as a Mystery cache? Anyone else wondering why this happens? Sometimes a puzzle cache is considered a multi cache. My question is, what would be the protocol for seeing a puzzle cache listing that is considered a multi, or a letterbox hybrid instead of a "Mystery" cache?

 

A cache meant to be done in the field, with multiple waypoints, is a multi-cache. A cache meant to be solved first, then found, is a type of mystery/unknown cache. For additional variations, use your best judgment.

 

Sometimes people categorize caches differently than I myself would do so, but I assume it's passed muster with the cache reviewer and I don't think it's a big deal.

[+Pond Bird]

Thanks! It is regional practice. Since some have are traditional or multi-cache with the "field puzzle" attribute and then in another area its mystery cache.

[+narcissa]

If a cache requires visits to multiple waypoints, it is better denoted as a multi even if there is some element of solving at those waypoints. The mystery/unknown attributes is overused as it is.

[+fizzymagic]

If a cache requires visits to multiple waypoints, it is better denoted as a multi even if there is some element of solving at those waypoints. The mystery/unknown attributes is overused as it is.

 

I disagree somewhat. IMO, if a cache has activities that would normally not be performed in the field, it's a mystery cache. If all the activities can be performed in the field without prior preparation then it's not.

 

Example: a multi-stage cache where you need to identify words on signs that connect to songs on a music album. In this case, one would need to know all the titles on the albums before heading out to find the cache. (Yes, I know that there may be wireless Internet access at the cache location, but I think it is not appropriate to assume everyone can use it.)

 

Another example: a cache where the finder has to go to a stage and collect information, and then do a complex procedure (such as decryption) using the information as a key. The finder would effectively need to return home to do the decryption before moving on to the next stage. This cache should also be listed as a mystery cache.

 

Final example: a cache requiring simple math on values obtained at each stage. Nothing that requires more than a calculator and paper. In this case, I think it should be listed as a multi-cache.

Edited January 19, 2016 by fizzymagic

[cezanne]

Example: a multi-stage cache where you need to identify words on signs that connect to songs on a music album. In this case, one would need to know all the titles on the albums before heading out to find the cache. (Yes, I know that there may be wireless Internet access at the cache location, but I think it is not appropriate to assume everyone can use it.)

 

I do not think that it is as easy as it might seem from what you write. There is nothing in the definition of multi caches that limits them to caches that can be done in one go (actually a high D rating might already suggest that one has to come more than once).

If you do not know beforehand that you need the knowledge of titles on music albums, you either need to ask someone for help or have internet access or come a second time regardless of the cache type.

 

 

Another example: a cache where the finder has to go to a stage and collect information, and then do a complex procedure (such as decryption) using the information as a key. The finder would effectively need to return home to do the decryption before moving on to the next stage. This cache should also be listed as a mystery cache.

 

The borderline between what people can perform in the field is quite fuzzy and subjective. Moreover keep in mind that there is something in the guidelines about mystery caches which will push some cache owners towards the multi cache category. For a multi cache the header coordinates can point to the start of the cache, for a mystery they need to be within 2 miles of the final coordinates which is very inconvenient and unwanted for caches which span a longer distance.

[+Happy Humphrey]

I've never taken it that a Mystery cache is the only type to require an element of solving puzzles at home.

 

The difference between a Multicache and a Mystery is that the former has coordinates of the first stage as its main coordinates. The latter has dummy coordinates.

 

In other words, for a Multicache you'll have to go to the published coordinates. For a Mystery you won't get any help towards finding the final cache by going there.

 

As an example, solving a puzzle on a cache page at home gives you a mystery number.

You go to the published coordinates and there's a box there with a combination lock sealing it. It contains a card giving the location of the final cache. It's a Multicache.

Another example. Solving a puzzle at home gives you some coordinates and a mystery number. You go to the published location and it's a car park, at the start of a short walk to the puzzle solution coordinates. Here you find a locked box, with a note giving you the final location. The mystery number is the combination. It's a Mystery cache.

[+narcissa]

The difference between a Multicache and a Mystery is that the former has coordinates of the first stage as its main coordinates. The latter has dummy coordinates.

 

Not necessarily!

[+niraD]

For reference, from the Help Center article Mystery/Puzzle:

 

• If the geocache has multiple stages and can be found without advanced preparation and uses simple math or simple converting of information at the stages (A=1, B=2, etc.), it should be listed as a Multi-Cache.

 

And from the Help Center article Multi-Caches:

 

Should it be Listed as a Multi-Cache or a Mystery/Puzzle Cache?

• If a cache has multiple stages (virtual or physical) and can be found by reading the cache description and following the instructions in the field, it should be listed as a Multi-Cache.
  
• If working out the clues requires advanced work or is so complex that many will need outside assistance, then the cache should probably be listed as a Mystery/Puzzle Cache, even if it is multi-staged.
  
• If the listing coordinates are used to calculate a projection without the need to visit the location, it should be listed as a Mystery/Puzzle Cache. If a projection must be calculated in the field using bearing and distance from one of the stages, it can be listed as a Multi-Cache.

 

And FWIW, the above matches what I've seen around here. But elsewhere, I've seen caches listed as mystery/puzzle caches that I would expect to be listed as multi-caches, and vice versa.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

The difference between a Multicache and a Mystery is that the former has coordinates of the first stage as its main coordinates. The latter has dummy coordinates.

 

Not necessarily!

 

Agreed. A Mystery can certainly have a container or some clue at the published coordinates. The final location is usually somewhere else within 2 miles but it could also be at the published coordinates (such as a field puzzle). Challenge caches are published as Mystery/Unknown caches and they're usually located at the published coordinates.

 

 

[+Happy Humphrey]

The difference between a Multicache and a Mystery is that the former has coordinates of the first stage as its main coordinates. The latter has dummy coordinates.

 

Not necessarily!

 

Agreed. A Mystery can certainly have a container or some clue at the published coordinates. The final location is usually somewhere else within 2 miles but it could also be at the published coordinates (such as a field puzzle). Challenge caches are published as Mystery/Unknown caches and they're usually located at the published coordinates.

I think that you're (correctly) referring to Challenge Caches, which are listed as Mystery but are really normally "Traditional with ALR". I've never come across a correctly-listed Mystery where you go to the location and then find something that sends you to another location. Groundspeak seem to be giving a little leeway; I think that they're saying that you might list it as a Mystery in these circumstances if the first stage is particularly obscure or complex. But that seems to muddy the waters (edit) although I understand why, because it infers that you'd be wasting your time going to the location without prior work.

 

Although Field Puzzles would also seem to confuse the issue, in my view they are normally Traditional. The principle of it is that if you have a Traditional or Multi on your GPSr then without further reference you can go to the location indicated and start attempting to find the cache (which might then involve reading the description to make further progress). If it's a Mystery then there's no point in going to the location without first reading the description.

Edited January 20, 2016 by Happy Humphrey

[cezanne]

And from the Help Center article Multi-Caches:

 

Should it be Listed as a Multi-Cache or a Mystery/Puzzle Cache?

• If a cache has multiple stages (virtual or physical) and can be found by reading the cache description and following the instructions in the field, it should be listed as a Multi-Cache.
  
• If working out the clues requires advanced work or is so complex that many will need outside assistance, then the cache should probably be listed as a Mystery/Puzzle Cache, even if it is multi-staged.
  
• If the listing coordinates are used to calculate a projection without the need to visit the location, it should be listed as a Mystery/Puzzle Cache. If a projection must be calculated in the field using bearing and distance from one of the stages, it can be listed as a Multi-Cache.

 

And FWIW, the above matches what I've seen around here. But elsewhere, I've seen caches listed as mystery/puzzle caches that I would expect to be listed as multi-caches, and vice versa.

 

But nevertheless due to the annoying rule about the header coordinates for mystery caches, one has no other choice than multi cache if one wants to have the header at the start and not at most 2 miles from the final which could be many, many miles from where the cache starts (which is quite stupid for many reasons).

[+NYPaddleCacher]

The difference between a Multicache and a Mystery is that the former has coordinates of the first stage as its main coordinates. The latter has dummy coordinates.

 

Not necessarily!

 

Agreed. A Mystery can certainly have a container or some clue at the published coordinates. The final location is usually somewhere else within 2 miles but it could also be at the published coordinates (such as a field puzzle). Challenge caches are published as Mystery/Unknown caches and they're usually located at the published coordinates.

I think that you're (correctly) referring to Challenge Caches, which are listed as Mystery but are really normally "Traditional with ALR". I've never come across a correctly-listed Mystery where you go to the location and then find something that sends you to another location. Groundspeak seem to be giving a little leeway; I think that they're saying that you might list it as a Mystery in these circumstances if the first stage is particularly obscure or complex. But that seems to muddy the waters (edit) although I understand why, because it infers that you'd be wasting your time going to the location without prior work.

 

What muddies the waters is that what people are referring to as a "Mystery" cache is a cache type which traditionally has been used as a catch-all for a cache that doesn't fit the mold of other cache types. I preferred when GS called them "Unknown" caches as that more accurately covered the different types of caches which fall under this catch-all type. Now they're called "Mystery/Puzzle" and caches such as Beacon caches, night caches, and Challenge caches might be "Mystery" caches rather than "Puzzle" caches but they all get the same icon. Although you can describe a Challenge Cache as a "Traditional with an ALR" the guidelines stipulate (at least before the moratorium) that they must be listed as an "Mystery/Puzzle" and they can either be located at the published coordinates or the cache listing have a puzzle to be solved to determine the final location of the container.

 

To me, a Mystery/Puzzle doesn't infer that one would waste their time going to the published coordinates, but rather that one must read the cache listing to determine the nature of the "Mystery". Reading the cache listing should tell you whether or not going to the published coordinates is required as you suggest below.

 

Personally, I think it's always a good idea to read the cache listing, even on a traditional cache. Any cache placed near or on private property might have information which might prevent a potential seeker from trespassing.

 

 

Although Field Puzzles would also seem to confuse the issue, in my view they are normally Traditional. The principle of it is that if you have a Traditional or Multi on your GPSr then without further reference you can go to the location indicated and start attempting to find the cache (which might then involve reading the description to make further progress). If it's a Mystery then there's no point in going to the location without first reading the description.

 

 

[+narcissa]

And from the Help Center article Multi-Caches:

 

Should it be Listed as a Multi-Cache or a Mystery/Puzzle Cache?

• If a cache has multiple stages (virtual or physical) and can be found by reading the cache description and following the instructions in the field, it should be listed as a Multi-Cache.
  
• If working out the clues requires advanced work or is so complex that many will need outside assistance, then the cache should probably be listed as a Mystery/Puzzle Cache, even if it is multi-staged.
  
• If the listing coordinates are used to calculate a projection without the need to visit the location, it should be listed as a Mystery/Puzzle Cache. If a projection must be calculated in the field using bearing and distance from one of the stages, it can be listed as a Multi-Cache.

 

And FWIW, the above matches what I've seen around here. But elsewhere, I've seen caches listed as mystery/puzzle caches that I would expect to be listed as multi-caches, and vice versa.

 

But nevertheless due to the annoying rule about the header coordinates for mystery caches, one has no other choice than multi cache if one wants to have the header at the start and not at most 2 miles from the final which could be many, many miles from where the cache starts (which is quite stupid for many reasons).

 

If you're going to have people flitting about the countryside for miles and miles, then it would be best practice to denote that level of effort by calling it a multi-cache.

[cezanne]

If you're going to have people flitting about the countryside for miles and miles, then it would be best practice to denote that level of effort by calling it a multi-cache.

 

I don't have an issue with calling it a multi cache anyway (actually that's my personal preferred cache type), but some cachers have.

Personally I find it however very convenient to know approximately in which area a cache starts as I then might take it into consideration when being somewhere. When the start is 20km away because the final is close to my current location, it's not very helpful.

 

So what I question is rather the arbitrary rule about the header coordinates of mystery caches which does not take into account caches that have multiple stage and incorporate elements that make them mystery caches for many cachers.

[+narcissa]

If you're going to have people flitting about the countryside for miles and miles, then it would be best practice to denote that level of effort by calling it a multi-cache.

 

I don't have an issue with calling it a multi cache anyway (actually that's my personal preferred cache type), but some cachers have.

Personally I find it however very convenient to know approximately in which area a cache starts as I then might take it into consideration when being somewhere. When the start is 20km away because the final is close to my current location, it's not very helpful.

 

So what I question is rather the arbitrary rule about the header coordinates of mystery caches which does not take into account caches that have multiple stage and incorporate elements that make them mystery caches for many cachers.

 

I have found that reviewers are always quite open to discussion and good reasoning when it comes to extraordinary cache set-ups like that.

 

And is it really the end of the world if the cache is designated a multi and not a mystery? I see caches that are miscategorized all the time and though it may cause me to furrow my brow for a fraction of a second, somehow, life goes one.

[+barefootjeff]

• If the geocache has multiple stages and can be found without advanced preparation and uses simple math or simple converting of information at the stages (A=1, B=2, etc.), it should be listed as a Multi-Cache.

 

One of my mystery caches (GC62WZJ) would have fitted this definition of a multi, except a multi requires one of the waypoints to be designated as the starting point and generally implies that the successive waypoints should be found in the order listed to lead to the final. In my case, the waypoints had to be listed in a specific order, but not found in that order, not unless you want to do an excessive amount of driving and put your boat in the water multiple times. There are also four roads into the area, with waypoints on three of them, so the order you do them in depends on what direction you're coming from. The listed coordinates for the mystery are the parking spot for the short hike to the final. The reviewer didn't have any qualms with it and it subsequently won the regional Cache of the Year in the Puzzle/Mystery category, so I guess it worked out okay that way.

 

Jeff

[+niraD]

I've never come across a correctly-listed Mystery where you go to the location and then find something that sends you to another location.

The puzzle caches I've found where I needed to go to the posted coordinates generally had the container at the posted coordinates, with some kind of puzzle to retrieve/open the container. I can't think of any puzzle where I needed to solve a puzzle to retrieve/open the container, and the contents of the container sent me somewhere else.

[cezanne]

I've never come across a correctly-listed Mystery where you go to the location and then find something that sends you to another location.

The puzzle caches I've found where I needed to go to the posted coordinates generally had the container at the posted coordinates, with some kind of puzzle to retrieve/open the container. I can't think of any puzzle where I needed to solve a puzzle to retrieve/open the container, and the contents of the container sent me somewhere else.

 

I've encountered mystery caches where something is to be found at the header coordinates and you need to solve a puzzle there to know where to proceed (that could be the final or another stage). Of course one also could classify such caches as multi caches with the fields puzzle attribute however not in all cases the puzzles are really manageable in the field.

Edited January 21, 2016 by cezanne

[+Happy Humphrey]

Of course one also could classify such caches as multi caches with the fields puzzle attribute however not in all cases the puzzles are really manageable in the field.

I think that's why Groundspeak give some latitude. If solving the puzzle isn't likely to be practical in the field, it fits with my principle that you're basically wasting your time going to the header location of a Mystery cache. Normally because there's nothing there, but in this case there's something there that won't be much use to you unless you're prepared.

Conversely, if the field puzzle is designed to be solved there and then and the solution points you somewhere else, it's a multi.

 

I think that the most tricky to categorise is one where the container is at the coordinates but a simple puzzle has to be solved to gain entry. I'd take that to be a Traditional with Field Puzzle attribute.

[cezanne]

Of course one also could classify such caches as multi caches with the fields puzzle attribute however not in all cases the puzzles are really manageable in the field.

I think that's why Groundspeak give some latitude. If solving the puzzle isn't likely to be practical in the field, it fits with my principle that you're basically wasting your time going to the header location of a Mystery cache. Normally because there's nothing there, but in this case there's something there that won't be much use to you unless you're prepared.

 

No, in the cases I have in mind there is nothing that can be preprared. You need to go to the coordinates, find e.g. a container there and then find out how to proceed.

It could be e.g. that you find something encoded.

[+Happy Humphrey]

That's quite unusual, if you're saying that the first stage is to pick up the puzzle at the header coordinates. I've seen one or two where you have to pick up a CD or code and then go home and find out what to do next.

 

It seems clear to me that it's a mystery cache, in that going to the location is unlikely to lead you to the cache (not without having to go away and solve something first). If it was a multi then there would be a fair chance that you'd be able to continue without leaving the cache trail.

[+Pond Bird]

 

I think that you're (correctly) referring to Challenge Caches, which are listed as Mystery but are really normally "Traditional with ALR". I've never come across a correctly-listed Mystery where you go to the location and then find something that sends you to another location. Groundspeak seem to be giving a little leeway; I think that they're saying that you might list it as a Mystery in these circumstances if the first stage is particularly obscure or complex. But that seems to muddy the waters (edit) although I understand why, because it infers that you'd be wasting your time going to the location without prior work.

 

What muddies the waters is that what people are referring to as a "Mystery" cache is a cache type which traditionally has been used as a catch-all for a cache that doesn't fit the mold of other cache types. I preferred when GS called them "Unknown" caches as that more accurately covered the different types of caches which fall under this catch-all type. Now they're called "Mystery/Puzzle" and caches such as Beacon caches, night caches, and Challenge caches might be "Mystery" caches rather than "Puzzle" caches but they all get the same icon. Although you can describe a Challenge Cache as a "Traditional with an ALR" the guidelines stipulate (at least before the moratorium) that they must be listed as an "Mystery/Puzzle" and they can either be located at the published coordinates or the cache listing have a puzzle to be solved to determine the final location of the container.

 

To me, a Mystery/Puzzle doesn't infer that one would waste their time going to the published coordinates, but rather that one must read the cache listing to determine the nature of the "Mystery". Reading the cache listing should tell you whether or not going to the published coordinates is required as you suggest below.

 

Personally, I think it's always a good idea to read the cache listing, even on a traditional cache. Any cache placed near or on private property might have information which might prevent a potential seeker from trespassing.

 

 

Although Field Puzzles would also seem to confuse the issue, in my view they are normally Traditional. The principle of it is that if you have a Traditional or Multi on your GPSr then without further reference you can go to the location indicated and start attempting to find the cache (which might then involve reading the description to make further progress). If it's a Mystery then there's no point in going to the location without first reading the description.

 

I've seen challenge caches which consist of a complicated puzzle to solve once you meet the challenge requirements. So many still are puzzle/challenges. One of them there really wasn't a challenge or an online puzzle but just a field puzzle, go figure.

[+Fridge01]

I drove 40 miles and hiked another mile to get to a new 5-part multi-cache that was getting rave reviews from the locals. What I found was not a multi- but a series of 4 difficult puzzle caches. Not only that, the COs puzzles had a unique style known to the locals and were nearly impossible for clueless out-of-towners to solve. I wrote a nasty log about wasting my time I didn't come here to do puzzle caches. I got a reply saying it was the reviewers decision to call it a multi because stage 1 had real coordinates. OK, but shouldn't you warn people in the description?