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Is there a NJ Geocaching group?


Rygel

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Fro,

 

It appears you have an issue with the NJGA that was formed several weeks ago.

 

I do as well. I don't like how that was handled.

 

What we are trying to do here is initate discussion on what a group would be, what people want to see in a group.

 

If a group is formed and you don't want to be a part of it that's your choice. You can form youor own group or go off on your own.

 

If a group is formed it will speak for the people in the group.

 

It is impossible to please everyone.

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I fear that this whole ordeal is getting ugly. icon_frown.gif

 

I was there, (at the *first* meeting) and I can't tell you what happened, I didn't see the formation of anything. I didn't get a funny hat, (or a BK crown for that matter) or learn the secret handshake ... I just had a great time BS-ing about hiking, camping, getting muddy, solving puzzles and geocaching

 

Just curious, has anyone contacted The Magician about what's going one?

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quote:
Originally posted by Rygel:

It appears you have an issue with the NJGA that was formed several weeks ago.


I wouldn't say I have a problem with the group. The issue for me is what needs drive forming any group, NJGA or otherwise?

 

I've yet to hear a compelling argument.

 

quote:
What we are trying to do here is initate discussion on what a group would be, what people want to see in a group.

 

If a group is formed and you don't want to be a part of it that's your choice.


Two purposes have been postulated: 1. social and 2. liaison with land managers.

 

1. No one has explained how a group better serves the social aspect than an event does. If this group that you are discussing is to serve the social aspects of geocaching, what can it offer that an event does not?

 

For instance, there is an upcoming event in Belleplain. Before NJGA was named, I agreed to place some caches for the event. Somehow this event has turned into an NJGA event. How has that improved the event? How has it changed what will occur? If it has done nothing, then why have the group?

 

2. No one has explained how a group would act as a liaison with land managers. You stated

quote:
If a group is formed it will speak for the people in the group.

Yet, if the group negotiates with land managers, you are speaking for a wider audience than your group members. If the group consists of such a small segment of the population it purports to represent (NJ geocachers), then is it really fair to act on behalf of those who do not belong?

 

This thread does not seem to support the idea that NJ cachers want a group to act in this manner. One way to silence that is to populate any group with a majority of NJ cachers. To do so, much reaching beyond this forum would need to be done.

 

{mild rant}Regarding If a group is formed and you don't want to be a part of it that's your choice. In another thread in a different forum a month or two ago, I was told much the same thing. The idea was that if I did not like the way GC.com applied rules/guidelines/etc. I should go to another site, form my own, leave, etc.

 

Had I done that, then perhaps a NJ group would have been created to speak for the NJ geocaching community without any input from me. You see, if a group is going to represent people, it needs to be in touch with those people.

 

Caches cannot be placed too near each other because it would spoil the game . . . unless it is near those that we tell to leave here if they do not like it. If it is next to a N@vicache cache, it does not matter. It doesn't spoil the game, or so it is said.

 

If I do not like how a group is going, I do not have to be part of it. Of course, the group will still speak about my issues.[/mild rant]

 

For me, I would rather speak now, in the formative stages of the discussion, to help direct the issue. Should I not, and something be developed that is counter to what I believe is correct, I have no one to blame but myself.

 

I have an interest in this. It is worthwhile discussion. I assume you agree.

 

Fro.

 

________________________________________

Geocaching . . . hiking with a purpose

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Fro -- you were so busy ranting that you apparently missed this statement (although you quoted what I said immediately before and after it.)

 

quote:
Originally posted by Bayberry:

Right now, NJGA has the luxury of being just a social club. So I'll shelve my call for an official "voice" for NJ cachers.


 

You've obviously got a problem with being "represented", and evidently you're pissed about some incident that doesn't involve NJGA at all.

 

Since the "representation" issue has been dropped (you can see from the poll that no one seems to want it), I don't see the reasons behind your impassioned objections to the existence of NJGA.

 

NJGA does exist. It doesn't need a "compelling reason" to exist, it just needs a few people to decide that it might be fun. Some organizations do start that way. Yes, it's poor business management -- but this isn't business.

 

Just as it only takes one person to start a group, so it only takes one person to kill it. Keep going, and you will. This one. This time.

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Guys...This is the exact problem the Maryland group had a year ago. I was a part of that group at its inception. The group started because of a park issue. It was largely one person setting things up and trying to gain support for the organization. There were constant squabbles between members of the group. We started with a "core group". The decision making structure was not put into place. After a month or so, two members had ironed things out with the state park people. The organization became more social, but seemed to have squabbles and misunderstanding among the core group.

 

MAJELLIN and I left because a treasurer was appointed without discussion. There was just too much politics for us to handle.

 

Now, from looking at their website, it seems that they have some new blood at the helm. The power struggles are certainly not public like they were a year ago. I see a more viable organization.

 

HERE'S MY ADVICE TO THE NEW JERSEY FOLKS...

1. Don't have officers if you don't need them. Some people will take the lead in the organization. Things will get done, if they need to.

2. Keep it strictly social. If issues come up with land managers, you can reconsider your purpose.

 

3. No dues, etc... I would probably say no website too (in the short term). Just an informal group that meets for events.

 

4. Try to go to all parts of the state, even if your active members don't live there. You will pick up cachers along the way.

 

5. Don't represent yourselves as being bigger than you are. The Maryland group still has a small active membership. It's true that their events bring out other cachers, but the organization is rather small, considering the number of cachers in the area. There are many members counted on the website that are not living anywhere near Maryland (one joined from Estonia).

 

6. Try to have discussions in person, rather than on the forums. If there are problems, they can be solved easier, with fewer misunderstandings.

 

7. Don't air your dirty laundry in public.

 

Feel free to contact me privately to elaborate more on the above message.

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quote:
Originally posted by Bayberry:

You've obviously got a problem with being "represented", and evidently you're pissed about some incident that doesn't involve NJGA at all.


Let's refrain from ad himinem argument.

 

No, I am not pissed about anything involving NJGA. Other than you and themagician, who both seem like fine folks, I wouldn't be able to tell you one person in NJGA. I imagine it is mostly the cachers who attended the event on 23 March. All the ones I met seemed like nice people too. I am getting together with some in a few days.

 

quote:
Since the "representation" issue has been dropped (you can see from the poll that no one seems to want it), I don't see the reasons behind your impassioned objections to the existence of NJGA.

I have no impassioned objections to NJGA. But I like the phrase. icon_wink.gif

 

Perhaps you can educate me on what NJGA does. It is sponsoring an event at Belleplain on 3 May. What will it be doing at/for that event? Also, whatever the answer to those questions, why does it take a group to do them? Would it have been enough to list an event, discuss in the fora what would occur, post to the event page, and have the event take place?

 

I do not see your impassioned desire icon_biggrin.gif for a group when the same things can be accomplished right here.

 

quote:
Yes, it's poor business management -- but this isn't business.

It's more than poor business management, it's poor planning. As I explained in a discussion with someone last evening, perhaps I have been poor in making my point. I am not against a group. I can see merit in a group. I have yet, however, to hear any compelling reason for a group. I believe this kind of discussion is needed before anything should be done. You, I, we, they, whoever, should walk away from this kind of discussion with a plan of action. Look at my questions as an opportunity to focus the work/mission/scope/whatever of the group.

 

Wouldn't it help a group to know what it is doing and be able to relate it to the public? I guess I am seeking clarification of what a group (NJGA or otherwise) would do.

 

Fro.

 

________________________________________

Geocaching . . . hiking with a purpose

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quote:
Originally posted by Bayberry:

Fro -- "seeking clarification" isn't the way your comentary to date would be described by anyone reading here.


I have not engaged in ad hominem arguments. I respectfully ask you to do the same.

 

1. From what has been stated in the Northeast forum and what little else has been added through two event pages and the NJGA web site, I do not know what the purpose of NJGA is.

 

2. Based on these same sources, I have not understood what a social geocaching group would do .

2a. Perhaps I would join such a group if I knew what it was it did. It is easy to dismiss me on this issue, but perhaps there are others who might join if they knew what the purpose of such a group was.

 

3. If you would like to explain to me either 1 or 2 above, that is fine.

 

4. If you do not, then let's just agree to disagree.

 

4. I am sorry that you have taken offense to what I have written. I assure you that my intentions are not personal. We do not know each other and perhaps if we did, you would understand the spirit for which I write.

 

Fro.

 

________________________________________

Geocaching . . . hiking with a purpose

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quote:
It was largely one person setting things up and trying to gain support for the organization.

 

Lots of groups start with one person. Boy Scouts started that way. The problem here is that one person, lacking input, has tentatively made some suggestions, and the rest of us have been lashed with a reaction all out of proportion to what that one person (right or wrong) has said.

 

There have been suggestions made. No decisions. Certain people are arguing against a chimera -- their vision of an "officer-driven, dues-collecting, membership-carrying card organization" that does not, in fact, exist.

 

What little does exist is just about dead, since now few people want to be dragged into the argument, or want that argument dragged into what was meant to be a fun time.

 

quote:

HERE'S MY ADVICE TO THE NEW JERSEY FOLKS...

1. Don't have officers if you don't need them. Some people will take the lead in the organization. Things will get done, if they need to.


 

So far, what's been suggested is "a person to kind of over see whats happening with the NJGA" (themagician). I haven't heard anyone call for a vote for officers, although I have heard rants against that hypothetical election as if it's already been scheduled.

 

quote:

2. Keep it strictly social. If issues come up with land managers, you can reconsider your purpose.


 

I put up a poll to encourage people to talk about this. So far the trend seems to be to not talk to land managers.

 

quote:
3. No dues, etc... I would probably say no website too (in the short term). Just an informal group that meets for events.

 

No one has even suggested that we have dues. (I have enough briar scratches to say that I've already paid mine.)

 

I'd like to have a website. Stuff posted here in the forums has a short shelf life. I'd like to have an archive of NJ-related topics for new NJ cachers to go to.

 

quote:
4. Try to go to all parts of the state, even if your active members don't live there. You will pick up cachers along the way.

 

We have said that we want to have events all over the state. So far, we've had one in Central Jersey one scheduled for South Jersey, and another for North Jersey. No problems there.

 

quote:
5. Don't represent yourselves as being bigger than you are. The Maryland group _still_ has a small active membership. It's true that their events bring out other cachers, but the organization is rather small, considering the number of cachers in the area. There are many members counted on the website that are not living anywhere near Maryland (one joined from Estonia).

 

I'm not sure what you mean here. What would be the point of claiming higher than actual numbers?

 

quote:
6. Try to have discussions in person, rather than on the forums. If there are problems, they can be solved easier, with fewer misunderstandings.

 

We can't all get together in one place at one time. NJ is stretched out, and Central jersey isn't really the center of the state, geograophically or population-wise. I'd rather that we had an email list to use to discuss group business (such as coordinating events or whatever), but we didn't even get that far yet, and it looks now as if we won't.

 

quote:

7. Don't air your dirty laundry in public.


 

Too late! Too bad, too, because a lot of this could have been done via private email or a private forum, and solved a lot faster.

 

Looking at some of the other state and regional organizations, I'd recommend a look at one of these three as examples of possibilities for an informal caching club in NJ.

 

Tulsa, OK

http://www.members.cox.net/geocache/

 

Cachunuts (Utah)

http://www.cachunuts.com/

 

SE Texas / Houston

http://www.houstoncachers.org/

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quote:
Originally posted by Bayberry:

 

So far, what's been suggested is "a person to kind of over see whats happening with the NJGA" (themagician). I haven't heard anyone call for a vote for officers, although I have heard rants against that hypothetical election as if it's already been scheduled.


OK, not to add fuel to the fire, but at least originally (his post has been edited recently) Magician's log on the the Spring Picnic page mentioned electing officers at that event. I see that part has been changed somewhat now. His current log on the Cheequake event still says:

quote:

April 3 by themagician (112 found)

as the founder ,president, vice president, secretary, Sgt at arms of the NJGA i'll be there recruting new members, and looking for caches and just having fun. PLUS i'll be looking to fill all of the above positions.


I also wonder why he logged 2 "finds" on an event in DE to recruit DE members when he didn't even attend?

One last thing, from the current NJGA website, updated 3 days ago:

quote:

Why should I join the NJGS or NJGA

The NJGS provides geocachers with the opportunity to network with other enthusiasts and adds a social element to an often solitary sport.

 

We hope that future meetings will have educational elements like snake identification, compass use, and map reading lessons to list a few.

The NJGS wants to worked with the NJ Parks and Recreation Department regarding a policy recognizing geocaching as an approved activity

within New Jersey Parks.


So I can understand Fro (and others) concern that a handful of cachers in in one area could affect rules statewide. Besides the fact that such a group may or may not have the best interests of the ENTIRE state in mind, it also would be largely ineffective working on a state level with land managers, as a group of 20 people in South Jersey can offer no assurance that the 2000 cachers in North Jersey would even know about, let alone follow any policies put in place.

So I think Fro's pointed questions about club direction are very relevent to the discussion. (dadgum, now I'm agreeing with Fro!)

 

Tae-Kwon-Leap is not a path to a door, but a road leading forever towards the horizon.

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quote:

OK, not to add fuel to the fire, but at least originally (his post has been edited recently) Magician's log on the the Spring Picnic page mentioned electing officers at that event.

 

I see that part has been changed somewhat now. His current log on the Cheequake event still says:

quote:

April 3 by themagician (112 found)

as the founder ,president, vice president, secretary, Sgt at arms of the NJGA i'll be there recruting new members, and looking for caches and just having fun. PLUS i'll be looking to fill all of the above positions.


So I can understand Fro (and others) concern that a handful of cachers in in one area could affect rules statewide.


 

I never saw that stuff. Still...

 

It's not "a handful of cachers", it's one guy who wants to formalize something that many of us wanted as an informal group.

 

I say, let those of us who want an informal group steer it thataway, and if themagician wants to come with us, fine. If not, that's fine, too. If he claims the title "NJGA", we just come up with another. (That title wasn't his idea to begin with. Wasn't it yours, Mopar?)

 

quote:

 

it also would be largely ineffective working on a state level with land managers, as a group of 20 people in South Jersey can offer no assurance that the 2000 cachers in North Jersey would even know about, let alone follow any policies put in place.


 

We've already dropped the "liaison" idea. We're talking about a purely social club. No officers, no dues, no required meetings, just cache events and food events and other club-type stuff. Nothing that's gonna step on the toes of people who don't want to belong or who don't manage to make it to more that a few events. Just a club that holds meetings in various parts of the state, with the intention of socializing and having fun with other cachers.

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Very well said Bayberry.

 

Let me add that I don't feel there has to be a "need" to have the group. There is a "want".

 

The whole thing has been overcomplicated since the beginning.

 

Its a group of people who WANT to get together and plans events, caches, etc.

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Hello all,

I just wanted to clarify something That Fro had mentioned about the name change on the next geocaching event/picnic sheduled for 5/3/03 in South Jersey.

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?ID=59447

 

I originally named it the South Jersey Geocachers Spring Picnic because of it's location, but that title seemed to imply it was for South Jersey only. I was not a NJGA member at the time,but after discussing with themagician I offered to host the next meeting at the May event and renamed the title to The NJGA Spring Picnic and emphasized that it was open to all geocachers and their families. That's how it happened. Ski...

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well at the first get together we had an informal vote. The general idea was do you want a formal group?

do you want an informal group, get a few things done and have a lot of fun.

The vote was I think 100% just have fun, and so it shall be.

We had fun we looked for caches and we had a contest that was a lot of fun. I would like to see people from North Jersey join. People from south Jersey join who cares where you live

Now heres my question to all of you.

If a president were to be elected to oversee things and he was from North jersey, how would that affect people in south jersey?

It doesn't have any effect on dues .

nothing to do with meetings as we want to spread them thru out the state.

Nothing to do with where or how you cache

so please explain it to me. sometimes I just don't see the whole picture.

 

As for the Belleplain get together.

Why would any one bring that up? The guys are putting it together, they asked if the NJGA people wanted to attend and most said yes. Some people from north jersey are going, a lot from central jersey and i'm sure a lot from south jersey.

I'll have the NJGA sign up sheet there. If you want to join fine, if not thats ok too. But just make sure you enjoy yourself cause thats the #1 thing .

 

Alumni of Cache U !

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quote:
The NJGS wants to worked with the NJ Parks and Recreation Department regarding a policy recognizing geocaching as an approved activity

within New Jersey Parks.


 

I'm not sure who this NJGA consists of, but the quote above scares the crap out of me. We've been quite lucky in NJ. Geocaching has been under the radar screen since it was introduced to the area. I'm certain the authorities are aware of our sport and provide their tacit approval by letting us be. They have bigger clams to fry, on a limited budget. If we attempt to start a dialogue with the authorities, so as to put official geocaching policies on the books, we're going to open a biiiig can of worms. It will be a can of worms that we will regret opening.

 

There is quite a difference between tacit and explicit approval. Many agencies, when asked for explicit approval will take the easy way out and say no, or impose some of the ridiculious restrictions that other states have to deal with.

 

As far as a social group, we do pretty well using event caches and the Northeast forum. In fact, geocachers from other states in the region jokingly refer to the NE forum as the NJ forum. So I don't see a need for a geocaching club, society, or association at this point. If a small group of people want to start a club, then nobody can stop them. Call it the NJGA, or whatever you want. As long a mission is a social one, I don't think anybody cares.

 

But if this association presumes to speak for NJ's geocachers and tries to act in any official capacity, I will object and I'm certain I won't be alone.

 

Should the state step in and attempt to restrict our sport, I'd be in favor of starting an organization. As we've seen here, it can be done quickly. Imagine what can be accomplished with the support of most of the state's geocachers.

 

"It has been my experience that folks who have no vices have very few virtues" -Abraham Lincoln

 

[This message was edited by BrianSnat on April 22, 2003 at 03:44 AM.]

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but the quote above scares the crap out of me. We've been quite lucky in NJ...........

That statements scares me too and I wrote it.

Actually IF THE STATE dreams up something about caching. I want to be ready and able to defend caching. To go to the state before they say anything would be a MAJOR mistake.

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Hey all, I hope you don't mind my 2 cents worth.

 

The first event cache in GA was supposed to be a social, story-swapping event. Right before that first meeting caches were banned in GA State Parks. All the sudden we had an issue to deal with and our first meeting changed focus dramatically. That is what made us gel together and eventually form the GGA. We never had a president and drew from our membership to solve problems together. Our consensus form of "Steering Committee" leadership has worked well. We are back in the state parks again with heavy restrictions, but at least we are back in the parks. It has been pretty much a social thing since then.

 

We have had some ugly moments with public bickering but at least that has been gone for about six months or so. We lost members because of that but most have come back and we have added many more new faces to our meetings. I totally agree that you must keep it simple and fun if at all possible. We have informative topics such as compass education, map reading, caching tips, safety, first aid, LNT, and much more. But, by far the best parts of the events are the social time when we take a break and chat with each other. It is great to swap stories and talk of caches found and not found and the evil cache hiders in our group.

 

A long time ago a member posted a link that I have found invaluable. It is not a perfect document by any means but the author does give some great advise for groups like ours to live by.

Some Notes On Small Group Dynamics (or why they fall apart)

 

Thanks for your time and I hope you don't mind me posting to this topic and forum. Please feel free to examine a document that the GGA put together on How To Start Your Own Association.

icon_cool.gif

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