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Night caches with reflective elements - multi or mystery?


GeoLog81

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There's some local misunderstanding about night caches, where the navigation from the start point to the final is done mainly, or exclusively using reflective elements.

 

From my experience, based on German practice, they are typical multi, because you use GPS to reach start coordinates, and from there, you navigate using exclusively information available on terrain (reflective elements).

 

But I've learned, in Poland they are mostly posted as mystery, which in my opinion is invalid, because mystery icon should be used only for caches, that doesn't match any other category.

 

Is there any 'official' statement about this case? Or some more common practice (each of the stated above can be local practice).

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I think multi makes more sense, but I've seen both. I think the idea with calling them mystery caches is that makes it more likely the seeker will read the description first before wasting their time showing up at GZ only to discover the path can only be followed at night. And perhaps the Polish COs are more inclined to be trickier while the German COs always make the trail easy to follow?

 

I've never seen one as a letterbox hybrid. That makes a lot of sense, too, but tradition still makes me lean towards multi.

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Honestly, I'd make it either a Letterbox Hybrid or a Mystery. The former is the method by which in-the-field directions are provided. A multi-cache typically has information at each stage that you obtain in order to find out where the next stage is. In this case, though, you know what you are looking for and you generally know a rough direction you are meant to travel. You aren't really gathering information at each point and when you submit it you aren't likely providing waypoints at each location. I'd consider it more of a field-puzzle to go along with the mystery or LH designation.

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I have one night cache, and it's a multi.

 

Navigate to a virtual waypoint, look for a pattern, then follow the reflective tacks along established trails (mostly) for just over a kilometer.

Once you locate the redirect, you have to do a projection to the final.

 

For those that create a night cache with reflective elements as a multi do you consider every one of the reflective elements to be a physical stage?

 

 

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I have one night cache, and it's a multi.

 

Navigate to a virtual waypoint, look for a pattern, then follow the reflective tacks along established trails (mostly) for just over a kilometer.

Once you locate the redirect, you have to do a projection to the final.

 

For those that create a night cache with reflective elements as a multi do you consider every one of the reflective elements to be a physical stage?

 

Exactly my point.

In submitting a multi:

1 - it's necessary to provide waypoints at each stage.

2 - information gathered at each stage provides coordinates or a method of obtaining coordinates to the next stage (with one exception being providing multiple waypoints to gather bits of information one combines to obtain final coordinates).

 

This has been my own experience in submitting multi-caches for review and publication, and I don't see the trail of reflectors really meeting these requirements. You aren't really using the reflectors to obtain coordinates for a final. Instead, they are just a visual guide for marking a route. As I already stated, the LH or Mystery types seem more appropriate.

Edited by J Grouchy
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Reflectors are physical tags. The WPs may be hidden but at their coordinates the CO placed something. I guess that makes it a multi. Filtering nightcaches on my Belgian database in GSAK I see 173 nightcaches. 73 are multi, 1 is letterbox, 53 are mysteries and a quick check shows that most have "there is nothing at the posted coordinates..."

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It all depends on how it is presented in the description.

 

But I am far more inclined to advocate for "Unknown/Puzzle" designation, because Multis often have either multiple containers, or a tag (or something similar) to tell which coordinates to enter to find the next stage.

 

With a set of reflectors, there are no coordinates to enter, so the cache starts at the listed coordinates, and ends at unknown coordinates.

 

For a puzzle, the cache generally isn't at the listed coordinates, but it "ends" at unknown coordinates.

Edited by NeverSummer
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I submitted one using small firetacks as a multi (as was the norm years ago), but after some back-and-forth correspondence with the local reviewer, we changed it to a mystery cache.

 

Here are parts of the guidelines we discussed...

 

"1.18. Mystery/Puzzle

 

updated 7 June 2014

...Common geocache designs within this category:

...

Night Geocaches..."

 

Although this snippet came up, also...

 

"1.20. Night and UV Geocaches

 

...Night geocaches are most often listed as mystery geocaches, sometimes as multi-caches...."

 

The reviewer replied thusly...

 

Before the mystery caches were created, night caches were multi-caches. Older ones are grandfathered in as multi's, GC has some weird rules governing them. The little fire tacks are considered virtual stages. But if there were large 3 inch squares like trail groups put up to mark hiking trails they are considered physical stages. If you had the large ones the cache would be a multi. GC also wants it as a mystery/puzzle if a tool such as a flashlight is required.
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Night hides in the US are ? Hides. The first fire tack gets posted coords.

The rest do not nor do you submit those locations to the reviewer.

You do however submit the final location to the reviewer.

The posted coords are also considered a virtual point.

Just like false coords to a puzzle. So it theoretically could be possible

To hide something at that spot as another traditional. But that would just be confusing.

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Definitely a LH or Mystery, imo. Multis, as described above, mean stages where information is gathered, or coordinates are determined. I don't think listing every reflector as a waypoint, public or hidden, is realistic nor required. And it seems redundant to determine coordinates for the next stage, then also ask that people follow night tacks to it; unless navigating to the stage is ridiculously difficult without tacks of course.

 

The difference though for me between listing it as a LH or mystery would be the nature of the instructions. If I'm at a stage and am told to follow the glowing tacks, then I've received one instruction and now I'm doing an active task to the next destination. If I'm at a stage and I receive a list of instructions to follow, all received at that stage itself, then that to me feels more like a letterbox. I suppose the only difference really is whether you have all the instructions before disembarking on the next task (LB), or whether the instructions are given to you along the way while doing what's required (tack to tack).

*shrug* I could see it either way, but I don't think GS would enforce one or the other necessarily.

 

I think Mystery takes priority over Multi, too. A listed multi would mean no interim-stage 'tasks', but rather stage to stage determination or info gathering. Stick one trail of tacks in there, and it would be incorporating a 'mystery' task.

 

Now, we do have night-time multi caches around my region, but if I recall, they are stages where you do something at the stage best done at night. Like searching for something with flashlights, or using UV or IR lasers.

But I could be wrong on that; can't remember. I just think the listing type isn't explicitly enforced by reviewers, but recommended if it seems to make sense for the listing contents.

Edited by thebruce0
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I have one night cache, and it's a multi.

 

Navigate to a virtual waypoint, look for a pattern, then follow the reflective tacks along established trails (mostly) for just over a kilometer.

Once you locate the redirect, you have to do a projection to the final.

 

For those that create a night cache with reflective elements as a multi do you consider every one of the reflective elements to be a physical stage?

According to the reviewer that approved the cache, reflective elements (i.e. fire tacks) do not count as a physical stage.

My first set of tacks are 90 metres from a physical tag for another multi that weaves throughout the area.

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Still sounds like a letterbox hybrid to me.

 

But letterbox hybrid is not the actual type, but any other cache with a stamp...

 

It's the best type to use for a multi-location cache that is done in the field, where the clues don't involve precise coordinates.

 

Is it the "best type", or just how you'd prefer to see this type of cache published? If that really is the "best type" I find it interesting that on4bam's summary of all the night caches in the entire country of Belgium showed:

 

Filtering nightcaches on my Belgian database in GSAK I see 173 nightcaches. 73 are multi, 1 is letterbox, 53 are mysteries

 

It sounds to me like, at least in Belgium, a letterbox is by far, the worst choice for a night cache. Nevertheless, if it is published as a letterbox hybrid, it still requires a stamp.

 

 

From the placement guidelines: "The container for a Letterbox Hybrid must include a stamp, which stays with the geocache and may be used by letter-boxers to stamp their personal letter-boxing book."

 

 

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Not every night cache with reflective elements is the "follow the glints to the end" style. I have three different night caches and none have a trail to follow. One uses the glints (diffferent brightness) to binary encode the numbers for the final co-ords - so a reflective night cache can be 'determine the numbers and enter the co-ords' type hunt. The other two use glints to locate a spot with a off-set to the cache. None of them have anything at the posted co-cords.

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I don't think it really counts as a Letterbox.

 

"Letterboxing is another form of treasure hunting that uses clues instead of coordinates. In some cases, the letterbox owner has made their container both a letterbox and a geocache and posted its coordinates on Geocaching.com. These types of geocaches will contain a stamp that is meant to remain in the box and is used by letterboxers to record their visit."

 

In the old days, I used to see a lot of Letterbox caches published as the "Start here, follow up the clues" but it seems to me they are mostly now actually at the posted coordinates and contain a letterbox stamp and may or may not be cross-listed on a letterboxing site. A true letterbox-style cache can be difficult to list on gc.com because of the GPS use requirement. While I can post coordinates for a parking area or trailhead and then give instructions, most times that location can be found without any GPS use at all.

 

I think the Knowledge Books (or is it the Help Center?) which was quoted above makes the most sense -- usually a Mystery, sometimes a Multi. Around here I have seen them listed both ways. I don't really have a preference.

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Around here, Victoria, Australia, night caches are multis except for those that contain an actual puzzle component e.g. you must solve a puzzle to obtain the start co-ords. Reflectors aren't counted as physical waypoints either but many of our N/C's contain projections in addition to having to find containers with information, usually co-ords for the next waypoint inside or tags with that same information. Such waypoints are considered Physical wp's and as such, the proximity rules apply.

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I have one that I listed as a puzzle because that fits my particular design. There are about 7 markers along the way. Each one is less than 300 feet beyond a trail junction. There are none at the junction, so you need to pick a trail then verify your choice each time. Eventually you get to a spot with two markers beside the trail. Go between them off trail, and follow a couple more markers to the cache. So I'd certainly consider that a puzzle. I guess if you can see a line of markers all the way from the first stage to the final it could be a multi, but I don't know of any in my area listed this way.

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I have one that I listed as a puzzle because that fits my particular design. There are about 7 markers along the way. Each one is less than 300 feet beyond a trail junction. There are none at the junction, so you need to pick a trail then verify your choice each time. Eventually you get to a spot with two markers beside the trail. Go between them off trail, and follow a couple more markers to the cache. So I'd certainly consider that a puzzle. I guess if you can see a line of markers all the way from the first stage to the final it could be a multi, but I don't know of any in my area listed this way.

 

A night cache such as you describe would be considered a challenging night cache with a D rating to suit, but still be considered a multi.

Obviously everyone has their own interpretation of what constitutes a Mystery.

 

Cheers,

 

b.

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As per Groundspeak rules. Night hides are mystery type. The posted coords have the first fire tacks. This does not qualify as a physical object even though fire tacks are an object. Stage one, posted coords are a virtual location to start from.

 

Agree.. that was my understanding from the two or three reviewers that I have dealt with over the years.

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As per Groundspeak rules. Night hides are mystery type. The posted coords have the first fire tacks. This does not qualify as a physical object even though fire tacks are an object. Stage one, posted coords are a virtual location to start from.

 

That's very presumptuous. I've done many a night cache where the first leg didn't involve reflectors of any sort.

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As per Groundspeak rules. Night hides are mystery type. The posted coords have the first fire tacks. This does not qualify as a physical object even though fire tacks are an object. Stage one, posted coords are a virtual location to start from.

 

The guidelines are guidelines, not rules and that's not what they say.

 

Night geocaches are most often listed as mystery geocaches, sometimes as multi-caches. The starting coordinates often locate the first of the reflector/UV mark location.

Night and UV Geocaches

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Well so you found that. OK so does that make me wrong. Nope!

I have created night hides and was told to make it a mystery as per

Groundspeak rules. Due to the fact that no physical cache at stage one.

And if you read your own quote it says posted coords reflect the first fire tacks. Can a night hide be a multy? Only if during the hunt one of the stages is not fire tack but is a container with coords to the next point. Which could be another container or more fire tacks. But the vast majority of night hides are listed as mystery. Mystery night hides have only one container, the final.

Any fire tacks have no coords location and will not interfere with other hides in the area. If the CO has recorded the GPS coords for those tacks that info is not given to the reviewers.

Edited by Mn-treker
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Can a night hide be a multy? Only if during the hunt one of the stages is not fire tack but is a container with coords to the next point.
I don't understand. I've found multi-stage puzzle caches where one of the stages is a container with coordinates (or other instructions) to the next point. The existence of a container at one of the stages doesn't automatically turn a mystery/puzzle cache into a multi-cache.

 

Don't get me wrong. I agree that most night caches should be listed as mystery/puzzle caches. But I don't follow your logic.

 

Mystery night hides have only one container, the final.
Again, I've found mystery/puzzle night caches that have had multiple intermediate containers. Adding containers to a multi-stage mystery/puzzle cache doesn't turn it into a multi-cache.
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As a German geocacher, the discussion in this thread looks rather strange :rolleyes: .

 

In Germany, the reviewers use a (in my view) simple and useful guideline to tell a multi from a mystery:

- If you can go straight to the listed coordinates to begin your hunt, possibly with lots of equipment as indicated by the cache description and attributes, it's a multi.

- If there is absolutely nothing to be found at the listed coordinates, and you therefore have to solve some puzzle beforehand to know where to start the hunt, it's a mystery.

Whether the cache is a night cache or not doesn't go into the equation at all.

 

I think that's a good definition, because you can see with one glance at the cache type, whether you have to do "homework" or not.

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Is there something at the posted coords?

If the answer is yes then it's a multi in my book.

If the answer is no then it's a mystery/puzzle.

 

Any container based cache type can be made into a LBH if a stamp is added to the container.

 

My thoughts precisely. Though there are some exceptions, generally speaking, if there is an object to be found at the posted coordinates it is a multi. If there is nothing there, it's a mystery/puzzle.

 

Also a ditto the LBH type. The only thing that makes a cache a LBH is the presence of a stamp. Many cachers are confused by the LBH designation and think it means how the cache is found. They are mistaken.

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The only thing that makes a cache a LBH is the presence of a stamp. Many cachers are confused by the LBH designation and think it means how the cache is found. They are mistaken.

So it has nothing to do with letterboxing at all. Put identical micro stamps in every traditional on a powertrail and voila, they are all LBHs. That is pathetic in my opinion.

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A Mystery could have a container at posted if it's listed as a field puzzle; it could also be a multi. Depends on reviewer judgement.

A multiple stage cache is hazy depending on whether there are physical stages (container or info gathering at the waypoint) and where.

 

I think the most significant priority is that if the posted coordinates have nothing (or begins a night tack trail), it must be listed as a mystery. (of course some reviewers may grant exceptions; this is always the case)

 

I think it comes back to Mystery being a catch-all category. It's a multi until any one of a number of qualifications bumps it into the Mystery category; and that's the reviewer's judgement. But we have the guidelines to make that job easier (ideally) for them :P

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The only thing that makes a cache a LBH is the presence of a stamp. Many cachers are confused by the LBH designation and think it means how the cache is found. They are mistaken.

So it has nothing to do with letterboxing at all. Put identical micro stamps in every traditional on a powertrail and voila, they are all LBHs. That is pathetic in my opinion.

 

That's why it's a Letterbox Hybrid, not a Letterbox ;) LBH is Groundspeak's thing. It allows for instructional offsets w/o coordinates to find a container, but requires a stamp in the final (if not at posted) container.

Edited by thebruce0
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The only thing that makes a cache a LBH is the presence of a stamp. Many cachers are confused by the LBH designation and think it means how the cache is found. They are mistaken.

So it has nothing to do with letterboxing at all. Put identical micro stamps in every traditional on a powertrail and voila, they are all LBHs. That is pathetic in my opinion.

 

That's why it's a Letterbox Hybrid, not a Letterbox ;) LBH is Groundspeak's thing. It allows for instructional offsets w/o coordinates to find a container, but requires a stamp in the final (if not at posted) container.

I'm well aware that this is a Groundspeak thing, I'm just disappointed that all it takes is the lowest common denominator. I thought clues w/o coordinates should be included and not only allowed, but apparently I was wrong.

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I'm well aware that this is a Groundspeak thing, I'm just disappointed that all it takes is the lowest common denominator. I thought clues w/o coordinates should be included and not only allowed, but apparently I was wrong.
All geocaches (including Letterbox Hybrid geocaches) must incorporate accurate coordinates at some point. You can't have one that uses just clues without coordinates.

 

The LBH caches that I've done have used accurate coordinates to specify the starting coordinates, and have then used clues to specify the route from there to the actual cache. But I've also seen listings for LBH caches where the cache was at the posted coordinates, and there were no clues involved at all.

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The LBH caches that I've done have used accurate coordinates to specify the starting coordinates, and have then used clues to specify the route from there to the actual cache.

That's exactly my picture of LBH hides. Putting a stamp in whatever type of geocache and calling it a LBH seems strange to me.

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Whether there is a container at the post co-ords or not, does not signify a multi or not. I have multi's that have virtual stages to start (some all but the final are virtual), so do those now become mystery caches?

 

Well, Brian wrote "if there is an object to be found". That doesn't necessarily mean that it's a container. There are lots of multi's where one must obtain information from a sign a the published coordinates to derive coordinates for a subsequent or final location. The sign is still considered a "virtual stage" and has to be "found", but it's not a container.

 

 

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Whether there is a container at the post co-ords or not, does not signify a multi or not. I have multi's that have virtual stages to start (some all but the final are virtual), so do those now become mystery caches?

 

Is the virtual posted coordinate a location to gather information? Note I said physical container or task to do at posted - ie, gathering of information.

 

(also what NYPaddleCacher said)

Edited by thebruce0
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Whether there is a container at the post co-ords or not, does not signify a multi or not. I have multi's that have virtual stages to start (some all but the final are virtual), so do those now become mystery caches?

 

Is the virtual posted coordinate a location to gather information? Note I said physical container or task to do at posted - ie, gathering of information.

 

(also what NYPaddleCacher said)

 

Exactly. A multi requires that full or partial COORDINATES are obtained at POSTED stages.

First, each of the reflectors are generally not given coordinate waypoints. Instead, they just mark a designated path or direction of travel.

Second, generally coordinates or portions of coordinates are not provided at the reflectors. If they actually are, THEN I would consider it a multi-cache. If all they do is point one in the right direction and from there they move on to find another reflector, then no...it's a mystery cache.

 

I could see individual numbers being written on the back of reflectors and then people are to use those numbers to combine into final coordinates. Then we perhaps get into a gray area where it's up to the discretion of the reviewer. The reviewer might even ask for waypoints for each reflector. I have a multi that uses a similar method and the reviewer actually was a bit torn between posting it as a multi or a mystery.

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Second, generally coordinates or portions of coordinates are not provided at the reflectors. If they actually are, THEN I would consider it a multi-cache. If all they do is point one in the right direction and from there they move on to find another reflector, then no...it's a mystery cache.

I remember a night cache where only the first stages had posted coords. At every stage you had to follow a reflector trail, but there where no variables written on the reflectors, no containers to find and no other objetcts to gather information from. You had to look on your GPSr to see your track, which resembled a digit at every stage. It was published as a D4 multicache.

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A multi requires that full or partial COORDINATES are obtained at POSTED stages.
Are you sure? I've found a number of multi-caches that didn't involve coordinates at all, except for the first stage. What I found at the first stage "pointed me in the right direction" for the second stage, and so on. Your basic offset multi-cache works this way, for example: "The final is ABC feet at bearing DEF° from stage 1."
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