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Caches Archived One Day After Event


marshajean
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Cache listings perceived as commercial will not be published. A commercial cache listing has one or more of the following characteristics:

 

It has overtones of advertising, marketing or promotion.

It suggests or requires that the finder go inside a business, interact with employees and/or purchase a product or service.

It contains links to businesses, agencies, commercial advertisers, charities, or political or social agendas.

It contains the logo of a business or organization, including non-profit organizations.

It contains the name of a business or commercial product.

 

You just described the Timberland caches :ph34r:

 

Oh wait.. that's different..

 

Looks like "do what we say, not as we do".

 

Looks like Groundspeak can make its own arrangements with corporate partners as it sees fit, but people can't just sign up and use the site as free advertising without making a formal arrangement with Groundspeak.

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Cache listings perceived as commercial will not be published. A commercial cache listing has one or more of the following characteristics:

 

It has overtones of advertising, marketing or promotion.

It suggests or requires that the finder go inside a business, interact with employees and/or purchase a product or service.

It contains links to businesses, agencies, commercial advertisers, charities, or political or social agendas.

It contains the logo of a business or organization, including non-profit organizations.

It contains the name of a business or commercial product.

 

You just described the Timberland caches :ph34r:

 

Oh wait.. that's different..

 

Looks like "do what we say, not as we do".

 

Looks like Groundspeak can make its own arrangements with corporate partners as it sees fit, but people can't just sign up and use the site as free advertising without making a formal arrangement with Groundspeak.

 

Exactly. The G$ Company can do as it wants (which is ABSOLUTELY OK), but the users of its service are not allowed to do those same things. Seems totally acceptable to me....they are the owners of the website, we are the users. Anyone who has an issue with this should simply delete their account and go away quietly.

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Cache listings perceived as commercial will not be published. A commercial cache listing has one or more of the following characteristics:

 

It has overtones of advertising, marketing or promotion.

It suggests or requires that the finder go inside a business, interact with employees and/or purchase a product or service.

It contains links to businesses, agencies, commercial advertisers, charities, or political or social agendas.

It contains the logo of a business or organization, including non-profit organizations.

It contains the name of a business or commercial product.

 

You just described the Timberland caches :ph34r:

 

Oh wait.. that's different..

 

Looks like "do what we say, not as we do".

 

Looks like Groundspeak can make its own arrangements with corporate partners as it sees fit, but people can't just sign up and use the site as free advertising without making a formal arrangement with Groundspeak.

 

Exactly. The G$ Company can do as it wants (which is ABSOLUTELY OK), but the users of its service are not allowed to do those same things. Seems totally acceptable to me....they are the owners of the website, we are the users. Anyone who has an issue with this should simply delete their account and go away quietly.

 

That seems needlessly harsh. I have my own gripes with things GS does now and then but I don't think it's necessary to delete my account over it.

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As narcissa points out, the Timberland caches were a sponsored series, thereby distinguishing them from everyday caches that contain commercial content. So, let's end that off topic tangent and return to discussion of the cache series at issue. I would think that cache saturation, railroad and commercial guideline issues in the series are on-topic, not just the cache permanence issue which triggered the thread (and which has since been remedied).

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As narcissa points out, the Timberland caches were a sponsored series, thereby distinguishing them from everyday caches that contain commercial content.

 

The point I wanted to make was that caches have been denied publishing because parking at restaurant XYZ where the trail starts (post from a few weeks ago). A cache named "GeoDay12: Milan Coffee Works" in front of this business can hardly have a listing not mentioning the name. I would only consider it commercial if the cache was sponsored by that business not if a CO uses names in a listing.

 

In short (what I wrote in another post) using GBV means more than rules. (Let's look at "GBV" as a puzzle. Hint: abbreviation, hint2: not in English).

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The point I wanted to make was that caches have been denied publishing because parking at restaurant XYZ where the trail starts (post from a few weeks ago).

 

Can't you just post the coordinates (i.e. Additional Waypoint)? That sounds like less keystrokes than typing out a business name?

 

I would only consider it commercial if the cache was sponsored by that business not if a CO uses names in a listing.

 

I can think of so many ways to circumvent your definition of commercial. A slippery slope trying to judge intent.

 

The Help Center article quoted above does a pretty good job of defining commercial and preventing the site from turning into Yelp or Trip Advisor, and that's fine by me.

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As narcissa points out, the Timberland caches were a sponsored series, thereby distinguishing them from everyday caches that contain commercial content.

 

The point I wanted to make was that caches have been denied publishing because parking at restaurant XYZ where the trail starts (post from a few weeks ago). A cache named "GeoDay12: Milan Coffee Works" in front of this business can hardly have a listing not mentioning the name. I would only consider it commercial if the cache was sponsored by that business not if a CO uses names in a listing.

 

In short (what I wrote in another post) using GBV means more than rules. (Let's look at "GBV" as a puzzle. Hint: abbreviation, hint2: not in English).

 

It really isn't hard to modify a cache listing to keep it in line with the very clear guidelines about commercial/solitication issues. Use coordinates, use vague terms, whatever. I've found dozens of caches hidden at coffee shops etc. where the cache owners managed to have cache listings that didn't so much as whisper a name or slogan.

 

It may be a bit frustrating to cachers, most of whom have good intentions, but without those guidelines, we'd be swamped with really lame, blatantly commercial caches everywhere, and the game wouldn't be seeing any benefit from it. We can argue until the cows come home about what makes a good cache, but first and foremost, a geocache should be created for the benefit of other geocachers.

 

I'm not a big fan of Groundspeak's corporate partnerships, but they do seem to make an honest effort to make sure they have genuine relevance and appeal for geocachers, and they seem pretty selective about what they do. I can think of a couple of promotions that pre-date me (Ape caches, Jeep trackables) so it's not like any of this is new. I'd rather they didn't do this at all, but that's what we have to live with in the current state of affairs.

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As narcissa points out, the Timberland caches were a sponsored series, thereby distinguishing them from everyday caches that contain commercial content.

 

The point I wanted to make was that caches have been denied publishing because parking at restaurant XYZ where the trail starts (post from a few weeks ago). A cache named "GeoDay12: Milan Coffee Works" in front of this business can hardly have a listing not mentioning the name. I would only consider it commercial if the cache was sponsored by that business not if a CO uses names in a listing.

 

In short (what I wrote in another post) using GBV means more than rules. (Let's look at "GBV" as a puzzle. Hint: abbreviation, hint2: not in English).

 

It really isn't hard to modify a cache listing to keep it in line with the very clear guidelines about commercial/solitication issues. Use coordinates, use vague terms, whatever. I've found dozens of caches hidden at coffee shops etc. where the cache owners managed to have cache listings that didn't so much as whisper a name or slogan.

 

 

Agreed. A reviewer may even help by suggesting language that can be used in the cache listing and what type of language to avoid.

 

This thread reminds me of usenet group that I used to read. Although the charter for that group specifically indicated that it was not to be used for commercial purposes, occasionally someone would would drop in and post something with the obviously a commercial solicitation and more often than not, wouldn't respond to anything else, or attempt to communicate in any way with the participants in the group. There was also a regular participant that would answer questions almost on a daily basis and was a wealth of information about the subject. As it turned out, he also owed a business that sold products that many of the participants in the group would use and included a single line in his signature with the name of the business. The perception that i got was that the first person was using the group only for commercial gain while the second participated in the group because he was interested in the subject and enjoyed the discussions. Similarly, the no commercial/agendas guideline states that if the cache creates a *perception* that it is being used for commercial purposes or promoting an agenda it would not be allowed.

 

For the cache in question, the language used creates a perception (to me, anyway) that the purpose of the cache is to solicit business for three specific commercial enterprises.

 

 

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Just went to the first page of this thread where someone asked if there were events without caches being published. There are, it seems, and looking at the monthly events mentioned in a link I see they are hosted in fast food restaurants. Name and address clearly in the hint.

 

I've not attended many events but the ones we did attend were not in commercial buildings or restaurants.

To be clear, I don't mind events being held in "Tin Roof Cantina", "Athens Pizza", "Taco Mac" or "Palookaville Fine Foods" but then it should also be no problem to just say, park at Mc Do's and follow the trail North.

 

Adding "purchase of food is not required" seems a bit strange if you're meeting in a restaurant and put "lunch break" in the event's name (I remember most US fast-food restaurants having "no loitering" signs anyway.

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As narcissa points out, the Timberland caches were a sponsored series, thereby distinguishing them from everyday caches that contain commercial content.

 

The point I wanted to make was that caches have been denied publishing because parking at restaurant XYZ where the trail starts (post from a few weeks ago). A cache named "GeoDay12: Milan Coffee Works" in front of this business can hardly have a listing not mentioning the name. I would only consider it commercial if the cache was sponsored by that business not if a CO uses names in a listing.

 

In short (what I wrote in another post) using GBV means more than rules. (Let's look at "GBV" as a puzzle. Hint: abbreviation, hint2: not in English).

 

It really isn't hard to modify a cache listing to keep it in line with the very clear guidelines about commercial/solitication issues. Use coordinates, use vague terms, whatever. I've found dozens of caches hidden at coffee shops etc. where the cache owners managed to have cache listings that didn't so much as whisper a name or slogan.

 

It may be a bit frustrating to cachers, most of whom have good intentions, but without those guidelines, we'd be swamped with really lame, blatantly commercial caches everywhere, and the game wouldn't be seeing any benefit from it. We can argue until the cows come home about what makes a good cache, but first and foremost, a geocache should be created for the benefit of other geocachers.

 

I'm not a big fan of Groundspeak's corporate partnerships, but they do seem to make an honest effort to make sure they have genuine relevance and appeal for geocachers, and they seem pretty selective about what they do. I can think of a couple of promotions that pre-date me (Ape caches, Jeep trackables) so it's not like any of this is new. I'd rather they didn't do this at all, but that's what we have to live with in the current state of affairs.

 

Excellent post.

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Just went to the first page of this thread where someone asked if there were events without caches being published. There are, it seems, and looking at the monthly events mentioned in a link I see they are hosted in fast food restaurants. Name and address clearly in the hint.

 

I've not attended many events but the ones we did attend were not in commercial buildings or restaurants.

To be clear, I don't mind events being held in "Tin Roof Cantina", "Athens Pizza", "Taco Mac" or "Palookaville Fine Foods" but then it should also be no problem to just say, park at Mc Do's and follow the trail North.

 

Adding "purchase of food is not required" seems a bit strange if you're meeting in a restaurant and put "lunch break" in the event's name (I remember most US fast-food restaurants having "no loitering" signs anyway.

 

For events, you're permitted to name the location, but you're not supposed to splash logos all over or otherwise make the cache page about the restaurant instead of the event. I know that people are sometimes required to "tone it down" before publication.

 

If you're hosting an event in a restaurant, presumably you have notified the restaurant about it and they understand that people will be coming in and not necessarily buying things. If you host an event without doing that, then, well, expect it to end badly.

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Cache Name: Monthly Meet & Greet

Location: Bill's Deli

Narrative: describe event

 

Cache Name : Monthly Meet & Greet at Bill's Deli

Location: Bill's Deli

Narrative: Describe event

 

Cache Name: Monthly Meet & Greet

Location: Bill's Deli

Narrative: Describe event and mention they have yummy sandwiches

 

Only one of the above is good. YMMV

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but then it should also be no problem to just say, park at Mc Do's and follow the trail North.

Apples and oranges comparison IMO. It's relatively easy to route someone to parking and/or trailheads with the tools available on the site without the need to mention a business or product.

 

On the other hand, Groundspeak appears to recognize that Events are quite different than caches and available for a relatively short period of time in comparison. Some basic knowledge of the venue allows Users to make an informed opinion whether they wish to attend. In areas where there are multiple businesses, the ability to name the business where the Event is taking place expedites things a bit.

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Cache Name: Monthly Meet & Greet

Location: Bill's Deli

Narrative: describe event

 

Cache Name : Monthly Meet & Greet at Bill's Deli

Location: Bill's Deli

Narrative: Describe event

 

Cache Name: Monthly Meet & Greet

Location: Bill's Deli

Narrative: Describe event and mention they have yummy sandwiches

 

Only one of the above is good. YMMV

 

And no matter what's on the listing, people are still "invited" into that business and the event organizer may even be "encouraged" by the shop owner to make it a monthly event :ph34r:

 

BTW, I only consider the third commercial. Even though the second mentions the business by name I consider it the same as giving directions by saying "drive 3 blocks and turn right at Starbuck's" (OK, bad example as the 2nd and 4th block will also have a Starbuck's :D )

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Can't you just post the coordinates (i.e. Additional Waypoint)? That sounds like less keystrokes than typing out a business name?

 

Looked it up, it was this one.

Good example. Definitely fewer keystrokes putting in the Additional Waypoint. I didn't read the entire thread, but it appeared the OP was making a nice segway from Commercial to Agenda.

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Cache Name: Monthly Meet & Greet

Location: Bill's Deli

Narrative: describe event

 

Cache Name : Monthly Meet & Greet at Bill's Deli

Location: Bill's Deli

Narrative: Describe event

 

Cache Name: Monthly Meet & Greet

Location: Bill's Deli

Narrative: Describe event and mention they have yummy sandwiches

 

Only one of the above is good. YMMV

 

And no matter what's on the listing, people are still "invited" into that business and the event organizer may even be "encouraged" by the shop owner to make it a monthly event :ph34r:

 

BTW, I only consider the third commercial. Even though the second mentions the business by name I consider it the same as giving directions by saying "drive 3 blocks and turn right at Starbuck's" (OK, bad example as the 2nd and 4th block will also have a Starbuck's :D )

 

Some places don't like hosting geocaching events, precisely because people come and don't buy anything. It can also be hard to predict how many people will be there because people don't always log will attend, or because the event "owner" doesn't relay details to the business. It can also have a negative impact on other customers.

 

If Groundspeak didn't allow some flexibility with events in commercial businesses, it would be pretty difficult to have events at all. Allowing the business name as a factual detail in the cache listing is quite reasonable.

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The commercial guideline prohibits business names in cache pages (point 5), however the Event guideline grants an exception, "owners can include basic information about the location on the geocache page, even if it is a commercial location." In practice, this means you can provide name of a commercial venue, be it restaurant, bowling alley, whatever.

 

Or you could just publish the coordinates for a parking lot and increase the difficulty rating. ph34r.gif

 

 

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The commercial guideline prohibits business names in cache pages (point 5), however the Event guideline grants an exception, "owners can include basic information about the location on the geocache page, even if it is a commercial location." In practice, this means you can provide name of a commercial venue, be it restaurant, bowling alley, whatever.

 

Or you could just publish the coordinates for a parking lot and increase the difficulty rating. ph34r.gif

 

Careful...you might end up having folks trying to crawl up under a lightpost skirt. :laughing:

 

Seriously, though...I do think some of the ways folks use to skirt around the non-commercial guideline are pretty funny. There's a number of caches around here with "Publix Enemy" in the title (Publix being the name of a southeastern grocery store chain). All the caches in that series are placed near their largest competitor's stores (Kroger).

 

Another series is called "Moe Cache {number}"...all placed outside one of the Moe's Southwest Grill locations.

 

I see nothing objectionable about mentioning a business/company/product in a cache description. As long as it's not promoting it as part of the cache experience, it doesn't seem like a problem.

 

There are other examples where slogans or catch phrases or even logos are used that make it pretty obvious what they tie into...all of which are published and well-established.

 

I ultimately see nothing objectionable about mentioning a business/company/product in a cache description. As long as it's not directly promoting it as part of the cache experience, it doesn't seem like a problem.

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The commercial guideline prohibits business names in cache pages (point 5), however the Event guideline grants an exception, "owners can include basic information about the location on the geocache page, even if it is a commercial location." In practice, this means you can provide name of a commercial venue, be it restaurant, bowling alley, whatever.

 

Or you could just publish the coordinates for a parking lot and increase the difficulty rating. ph34r.gif

 

I like that idea, especially if there are several restaurants in the shopping plaza. Keep 'em guessing!

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Or you could just publish the coordinates for a parking lot and increase the difficulty rating. ph34r.gif
I like that idea, especially if there are several restaurants in the shopping plaza. Keep 'em guessing!
If you really want a high-difficulty event, hold it in a shopping center with several restaurants and publish coordinates in the middle of the parking lot, but hold the actual event in a vacant store that has papered-over windows. If there's a vacant store in the shopping plaza, then you could probably rent it for the day at a very reasonable rate.
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If you really want a high-difficulty event, hold it in a shopping center with several restaurants and publish coordinates in the middle of the parking lot, but hold the actual event in a vacant store that has papered-over windows. If there's a vacant store in the shopping plaza, then you could probably rent it for the day at a very reasonable rate.

 

Except that I thought that coordinates were always supposed to be accurate, right? :)

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If you really want a high-difficulty event, hold it in a shopping center with several restaurants and publish coordinates in the middle of the parking lot, but hold the actual event in a vacant store that has papered-over windows. If there's a vacant store in the shopping plaza, then you could probably rent it for the day at a very reasonable rate.

Except that I thought that coordinates were always supposed to be accurate, right? :)

"That right there is one of them offset-Events..."

:laughing:

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Does anyone create events anymore without the incentive of hiding a bunch of caches nearby for attendees to find?

 

Is it just me, but I thought that the primary purpose of a geocaching event was to socialize with other geocachers but apparently in most places geocachers are unable to do that unless they're finding a bunch of caches.

 

I won't speak for most places, or even your place, only my place. In most spots of NC event attendees like to find caches on the way to an event sometimes. Other times they might meet people that they don't cache with on a regular basis at the event, and then go caching together after the event.

 

Hiding a few new ones in the general area of an event merely facilitates those perfectly normal caching behaviors.

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In my area there are several groups that have a monthly dinner (or other meal) get together. It is rare for there to be new caches for the event, except the occasional couple of delayed publications to give FTF as a door prize. They go live within a couple of days (usually the next day) and are just ordinary caches after that. Sometimes the prize is naming rights instead of FTF.

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I can understand an organization (or group) wanting to have new 'smilies' available to entice event attendees. Instead of creating a bunch of caches that aren't going to be maintained, then how about creating some lab caches? Event attendees could still increase their smiley count, if that's important to them. If the event host wants people to find geocache containers, then the code words can be written on the log sheet inside the cache. This would be a good use of the lab cache feature. I know some folks are not fans of this cache type, but it would likely cause less ire than seeing temporary caches placed.

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I can understand an organization (or group) wanting to have new 'smilies' available to entice event attendees. Instead of creating a bunch of caches that aren't going to be maintained, then how about creating some lab caches?

 

This would work, if lab cache creation were open to ordinary cache owners. As it stands, though, only the Frog can create lab caches.

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Does anyone create events anymore without the incentive of hiding a bunch of caches nearby for attendees to find?

Of the >100 events that have been held in my area over the last 6+ years (not counting the two Megas and associated satellite events), I can think of a single one that had a single cache published in conjunction with it. I don't know whether it's because the people around here just like to socialize, whether it's due to saturation effectively preventing it, or some other reasons, but it just doesn't happen around here.

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Does anyone create events anymore without the incentive of hiding a bunch of caches nearby for attendees to find?
Of the >100 events that have been held in my area over the last 6+ years (not counting the two Megas and associated satellite events), I can think of a single one that had a single cache published in conjunction with it. I don't know whether it's because the people around here just like to socialize, whether it's due to saturation effectively preventing it, or some other reasons, but it just doesn't happen around here.
The events that I've attended generally have not had caches published for them. The closest thing to an exception that I can think of was an event that invited participants to beta-test an unpublished letterbox hybrid cache. A bunch of us stayed at the main event location and continued to socialize. I eventually came back to the park and found the cache after it had been published.

 

But there's a lot of selection bias in that sample, just based on the kinds of events that I attend.

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One of the first challenges that I ever attended as a new geocacher was GC1G269 7th Annual Texas Challenge (March, 2009). That specific challenge had at least thirty if not more caches created for the challenge that were NOT intended to be archived at the end of the challenge. There different series; Winery Tour, School House Tour, and I believe one other. Many of those caches are still going strong today. I was serious disappointed when I went to the challenge the next year and the years to follow to find out that there were challenges created solely for the events. I found that those caches were not to be found on GS and would not count for my cache count. It was then that I found out about the restrictions for caches created for events. I don't even bother chasing event caches anymore. Caches can be created for events that can last for years. It just takes people who want to put forth the effort.

Edited by DE_Cryptoman
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