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Caches Archived One Day After Event


marshajean
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No, it is not "legal" -- it's contrary to the "Cache Permanence" section of the listing guidelines, which says:

 

Geocaches are placed for the long term.

 

Cachers will expect your cache to remain in place for a realistic and extended period of time. Therefore, caches that have the goal to move (traveling caches), or temporary caches (caches hidden for less than 3 months or for one-time events) will not be published.

 

I looked near the event and confirmed that an entire series of temporary caches were published on August 29 and archived by the owner on August 30. Of course, their temporary nature was not disclosed to the reviewer pre-publication -- just urgent requests to coordinate the publication of the caches to coincide with the event.

Edited by Keystone
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Did I misinterpret the rules? There was a local event held this past Saturday (GC60H9Y). There was a series of twelve caches put out for this event. Today, one day later, all but two of those caches have been archived. I didn't think that was 'legal'. Frustrating.

From the Guidelines:

 

Geocaches are placed for the long term.

Cachers will expect your cache to remain in place for a realistic and extended period of time. Therefore, caches that have the goal to move (traveling caches), or temporary caches (caches hidden for less than 3 months or for one-time events) will not be published.

 

I didn't go looking for the Listings you are referring to, but your assertion is generally correct.

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Caches are supposed to be placed with some expectation of permanence (3 month, minimum), and caches placed just for event attendees to find then removed are generally not allowed. However, it seems a cache (or 12) was placed with no mention to the reviewer of their temporary nature, who then activated them. When the CO archived them a day later, it's not like Groundspeak could forbid the archival.

 

I agree with that situation being frustrating. There was definitely a breech of Geocaching etiquette here.

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No, it is not "legal" -- it's contrary to the "Cache Permanence" section of the listing guidelines, which says:

 

Geocaches are placed for the long term.

 

Cachers will expect your cache to remain in place for a realistic and extended period of time. Therefore, caches that have the goal to move (traveling caches), or temporary caches (caches hidden for less than 3 months or for one-time events) will not be published.

 

I looked near the event and confirmed that an entire series of temporary caches were published on August 29 and archived by the owner on August 30. Of course, their temporary nature was not disclosed to the reviewer pre-publication -- just urgent requests to coordinate the publication of the caches to coincide with the event.

 

I would hope any future requests from this CO receives some very careful examination and very pointed questioning.

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I would hope the cache owner in question is never allowed to place caches nor host events again. Gheir blatant disregard for placement guidelines is not acceptable. People are banned from the forums for what would seem to be lesser infractions. (I'm onmytablet, so emoticons are not available to me)

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I've never quite understood why reviewers publish caches for events anyway.

 

Given that an event cannot be an organised cache hunt it seems to me counter-intuitive that a bunch of new caches would be published to coincide with an event :unsure:

 

When caches are being placed specifically to enable gathering of a bunch of smileys (careful wording time) at a time to coincide with an event I doubt cache permanence is the highest priority.

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I've never quite understood why reviewers publish caches for events anyway.

 

Given that an event cannot be an organised cache hunt it seems to me counter-intuitive that a bunch of new caches would be published to coincide with an event :unsure:

 

When caches are being placed specifically to enable gathering of a bunch of smileys (careful wording time) at a time to coincide with an event I doubt cache permanence is the highest priority.

 

It's common practice here to have caches published in the evening after an event closes. The bigger events may have 100+ new caches where GPX files and/or "roadbooks" (paper listings) are handed out.

Caches placed for one of the yearly events in it's first year (2012) are still active and so are a lot of caches placed in the following years.

Some cachers will rush out the door once they have the GPX on their GPS others will hang around to meet friends, have a drink, eat, attend a (GSAK) class... and by evening most meet up again for BBQ, lottery prices....

 

It is possible to find a lot of caches that day but it's also possible to go out for some longer multi's and about any cachetype can be done.

 

At least in our neck of the woods I've never seen caches published for an event and archived the next day.

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I've never quite understood why reviewers publish caches for events anyway.

Given that an event cannot be an organised cache hunt it seems to me counter-intuitive that a bunch of new caches would be published to coincide with an event :unsure:

 

When caches are being placed specifically to enable gathering of a bunch of smileys (careful wording time) at a time to coincide with an event I doubt cache permanence is the highest priority.

 

Disclaimer: wild rampant speculation follows. (Oh, wait, this is the Internet ... no disclaimer necessary. :) )

 

Any sort of ban that Groundspeak might put into place for publishing "caches for events" could easily be circumvented. ("No, seriously, this sock puppet account that wants to post a dozen caches on Friday has absolutely nothing to do with that other account hosting an event on Friday.") Trying to enforce an unenforceable rule doesn't seem like a good use of volunteer time.

 

Publication of caches in synchrony with an event doesn't have to be a problem. I've attended a event for the last three years which coincided with the publication of several (usually six) new caches. But the event had other elements to it (a potluck and a prize raffle), no-one was obligated to head out for the cache hunt, and the caches are still in place today. (Well, almost all of them; a few have been archived after going missing, but with no greater frequency than "ordinary" caches suffer.)

 

"Cache permanence" is an interesting phenomenon. One of our local caching organizations will put out a bunch of winter-friendly caches that satisfy the letter of the law --- they're kept active for 3-4 months, then archived when springtime rolls around. Next winter, a different set of winter caches will be placed. In a cache-saturated area, this allows cachers to have the fun of finding new caches without having to increase their travel radius year by year by year. This seems well within the spirit of the Guidelines. The same organization rotates many of their caches in the county parks, though with a longer timeframe (3-4 years instead of 3-4 months).

 

To a certain extent, I think this will be handled after-the-fact by the Reviewers examining any other listings from this person/region with a skeptical eye. We've got a good set of local reviewers here in my region ... they're extraordinarily patient and helpful with cache owners, right up until the point that you lie to them --- at which point, they become far less friendly. That's probably all that can be done.

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The CO even stated publicly: "I will be taking down the vast majority of the Geocaching Day caches either this evening or tomorrow. Thanks again for sharing in our experience!"

 

There's really no question this person/group had no intention of keeping them up.

 

Question for reviewers: When folks ask to have publication coincide with events, are they questioned at all about their intent in keeping them active? Are the COs made aware that they are only to be published if they are maintained? If yes to those...obviously it's not really working.

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Question for reviewers: When folks ask to have publication coincide with events, are they questioned at all about their intent in keeping them active? Are the COs made aware that they are only to be published if they are maintained? If yes to those...obviously it's not really working.

If there's any hint that the event organizer intends to hide temporary caches, then reviewers will engage in a dialogue about cache permanence. There was no hint here until the event organizer's log that came after the fact.

 

Reviewers are already criticized for their long, impersonal form letter reviewer notes. Imagine if we had to cover every eventuality, like cache maintenance expectations, cache permanence, log control, impermissible edits to the cache listing, coordinate updates and so forth. The brief description for the event in question would be dwarfed by the length of the reviewer's advisory note.

 

We expect that cache owners have read the listing guidelines when they check the box at the bottom of the cache submission form. Many don't, of course, but reviewers will assume they do until there's a reason to believe otherwise.

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Are the COs made aware that they are only to be published if they are maintained?

 

Isn't that rather self explanatory? I mean, there is a check box on every submission form confirming that the CO has read and agreed to the Guidelines. It looks like in this particular situation, this was not the case, but do we really need to engage in Reviewer Note ping pong as a general policy? I would think a *reminder* to the CO in this case would suffice.

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I've never quite understood why reviewers publish caches for events anyway.

Given that an event cannot be an organised cache hunt it seems to me counter-intuitive that a bunch of new caches would be published to coincide with an event :unsure:

 

When caches are being placed specifically to enable gathering of a bunch of smileys (careful wording time) at a time to coincide with an event I doubt cache permanence is the highest priority.

 

Any sort of ban that Groundspeak might put into place for publishing "caches for events" could easily be circumvented... ("No, seriously, this sock puppet account that wants to post a dozen caches on Friday has absolutely nothing to do with that other account hosting an event on Friday.") Trying to enforce an unenforceable rule doesn't seem like a good use of volunteer time.

 

I'm not advocating a ban for publishing caches for events. Rather I find it odd given the guideline which disallows organised cache hunts as it seems rather obvious to me that the intent of those caches is an organised cache hunt - albeit as a con-compulsory event add-on.

 

Publication of caches in synchrony with an event doesn't have to be a problem.

 

Agreed.

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retract them all!

I'd let the local Reviewer sort it out with the Event Host. Retracting wouldn't really accomplish anything. Folks would still keep the Finds they have, nobody would be able to log a Find on them in a Retracted state, and the CO would just have a handful of Unpublished Listings sitting on their Profile. Kind of a pointless gesture IMO.

 

It would be better for all if the Host(ess) tried and replace the caches (if possible...I'm unfamiliar with the area) and had the Listings Unarchived. Judging from the last couple of Notes on the Event Listing, I think they're getting the message loud and clear :rolleyes:

Edited by Touchstone
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I attended the event this past Saturday. The CO did not mention at the event the caches were going to be pulled afterwards. Not sure why they were but I do have to say the event was nice and really supported by the local businesses. Plus it was a youth group that organizied.

 

I loved it that you could walk from the event to all 12 caches. All the caches had clues for a final puzzle. The puzzle wasn't a cache just a chance for a prize.

 

But the reviewer in my opinion must not have looked at a few of these caches. GC61NEN Norfolk Southern was hid under railroad track bridge that are active tracks.

I thought they had to be 150 feet away. Any who children were up on the active tracks looking for this cache. I was shocked and worried. Just before I arrived at this hide a train went rambling down the tracks. So yes they are active. Check the cache page they even posted photos. The posted coords put the cache up on railroad property. The container was under the tracks off a walking path. Actually on the railroad bridge. in my opinion this should NOT have been published. But I am not a reviewer just a finder. Here is the kicker. This cache(GC61NEN) and GC61NK2 Service Bridge both are about 400 feet from a puzzle final.

 

Thins same thing happened recently in Myrtle Beach a CO held a CITO at Myrtle Beach State Park. Caches published and they archived them all the next day. GC5NEZR is the CITO Event.

 

Not sure a reviewer would of seen either one of these playing out this way.

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Someone should point out the non-commercial part of the Guidelines to that CO as well. One of the surviving caches is beyond what most would consider non-commercial.

 

I think that someone should point that out to the reviewer that hit the publish button. :ph34r:

You are assuming I guess that that was the wording when published.

 

No reason to believe otherwise.

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I would hope the cache owner in question is never allowed to place caches nor host events again. Gheir blatant disregard for placement guidelines is not acceptable. People are banned from the forums for what would seem to be lesser infractions. (I'm onmytablet, so emoticons are not available to me)

 

Never? Ever??

Edited by bflentje
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But the reviewer in my opinion must not have looked at a few of these caches. GC61NEN Norfolk Southern was hid under railroad track bridge that are active tracks.

 

It was stated in a private Note to the Reviewer that a fence separated the active tracks from the cache site. The Reviewer did question the placement initially. The nearby Puzzle Final might have been missed, or given a *pass*. Not sure on that one.

 

...same thing happened recently in Myrtle Beach a CO held a CITO at Myrtle Beach State Park. Caches published and they archived them all the next day. GC5NEZR is the CITO Event.

 

Private Notes appear that the CITO Host(ess) was *counseled* on this type of practice and not to do it in the future. At any rate, the Publishing Reviewer was aware of the situation.

 

I basically follow Keystone's advice:

 

We expect that cache owners have read the listing guidelines when they check the box at the bottom of the cache submission form. Many don't, of course, but reviewers will assume they do until there's a reason to believe otherwise.

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Seems like it was a good event, and the CO is trying to re-activate them (I saw an Owner Maintenance log saying "activate" on several of the archived caches).

But they don't seem to have understood the guidelines in several areas.

 

I found the commercial aspect of GeoDay12: Milan Coffee Works sort of amusing, as it reads to me like an example that Groundspeak would put in the Knowledge Books to show what a commercial cache looks like. I can only assume either the text was changed post publication or the reviewer simply missed it. The text is below.

 

Despite the private sector is underrepresented At Geocaching Day, these are three businesses that need to be mentioned. There’s something really good going here on County Street. Between Milan Coffee Works, the Mother Loaf, and Original Gravity Company. Residents are able to purchase handmade quality products. These three businesses are owner operated and offer phenomenal products. Milan Coffee Works roasts and brews its own coffee from raw coffee beans. The Mother Loaf bakery has the most amazing artisan breads around. Original Gravity is a destination for beer enthusiasts; all their brews are made in house and they offer a family friendly environment so everybody can enjoy. If you haven’t already tried products from these companies, we hope you will make a trip back soon.

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Seems like it was a good event, and the CO is trying to re-activate them (I saw an Owner Maintenance log saying "activate" on several of the archived caches).

But they don't seem to have understood the guidelines in several areas.

 

I found the commercial aspect of GeoDay12: Milan Coffee Works sort of amusing, as it reads to me like an example that Groundspeak would put in the Knowledge Books to show what a commercial cache looks like. I can only assume either the text was changed post publication or the reviewer simply missed it. The text is below.

 

Despite the private sector is underrepresented At Geocaching Day, these are three businesses that need to be mentioned. There’s something really good going here on County Street. Between Milan Coffee Works, the Mother Loaf, and Original Gravity Company. Residents are able to purchase handmade quality products. These three businesses are owner operated and offer phenomenal products. Milan Coffee Works roasts and brews its own coffee from raw coffee beans. The Mother Loaf bakery has the most amazing artisan breads around. Original Gravity is a destination for beer enthusiasts; all their brews are made in house and they offer a family friendly environment so everybody can enjoy. If you haven’t already tried products from these companies, we hope you will make a trip back soon.

 

Ouch, I wonder if any of those businesses approved the copy on that.

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I worked on an event that had new caches set up to be released for the event, but were left in place following the event. They were night caches. It was a hoot to have folks gather for the publication of the caches/cords. It became a fun activity, like a party.

 

Does anyone create events anymore without the incentive of hiding a bunch of caches nearby for attendees to find?

 

Is it just me, but I thought that the primary purpose of a geocaching event was to socialize with other geocachers but apparently in most places geocachers are unable to do that unless they're finding a bunch of caches.

 

 

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Is it just me, but I thought that the primary purpose of a geocaching event was to socialize with other geocachers but apparently in most places geocachers are unable to do that unless they're finding a bunch of caches.

 

It is just you. You are "apparently" jumping to an overstated conclusion regarding "most places".

Edited by cheech gang
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Is it just me, but I thought that the primary purpose of a geocaching event was to socialize with other geocachers but apparently in most places geocachers are unable to do that unless they're finding a bunch of caches.

 

It is just you. You are "apparently" jumping to an overstated conclusion regarding "most places".

 

While it's true that I haven't viewed the cache listing for every Event ever published and thus can't show evidence that events which include incentive hides occur in "most" places, based on my reading of the forums and *lots* of event cache listings, the practices seems to be *extremely* common.

 

 

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I see two kinds of events these days, the ones with a bunch of new caches being published and the "small" one where cachers visiting a city/country "host" an event want to meet some locals.

 

Just reading logs it seems that there are activities throughout the day for most of the events. Some organizers have extra events like new year's drink, easter meeting... beside the "ordinary" event with new caches.

Don't forget, events are what people make them. People go to events to score FTF's, rack up numbers, socialize....

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I see two kinds of events these days, the ones with a bunch of new caches being published and the "small" one where cachers visiting a city/country "host" an event want to meet some locals.

 

Just reading logs it seems that there are activities throughout the day for most of the events. Some organizers have extra events like new year's drink, easter meeting... beside the "ordinary" event with new caches.

Don't forget, events are what people make them. People go to events to score FTF's, rack up numbers, socialize....

 

And let's not forget that there are guidelines associated with the publishing of events and this is one of them.

 

"An Event Cache should not be set up for the purpose of gathering geocachers for a geocache search."

 

 

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And let's not forget that there are guidelines associated with the publishing of events and this is one of them.

 

"An Event Cache should not be set up for the purpose of gathering geocachers for a geocache search."

 

That's another "rule/guideline" I would gladly ignore (there are more :ph34r: ). I'll stick to GBV.

 

Besides, it's hardly enforceable. Create an event and geocachers will gather. If there are caches nearby (or newly published) they will go search for them. Some cachers even arrange to team up to go caching which is the same but without the event.

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Back to the original post: they have just now been unarchived by the reviewer. There remain proximity, commercial, and railroad issues with this series.

 

Sweet, I was disappointed I missed these! I'll head up there in the next week. I hear there's a great coffee place nearby too.

 

But in all seriousness on the issue of commercial aspects of caches, I wonder whether or not there is a bright line. In placing a cache, I have sometimes included references to the area amenities available to cachers in an attempt to further entice them to find my hide. (i.e. - Find my hide and then enjoy a bite to eat or grab some coffee nearby). I don't see that as anything more than a foreseen extension of the available attributes. And I suppose we could even argue whether the proximity of a cache is a defacto commercial use of a geocache in some cases. Has anyone NOT claimed a find named, "Aways (something)" in a Walmart parking lot?

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Back to the original post: they have just now been unarchived by the reviewer. There remain proximity, commercial, and railroad issues with this series.

 

Sweet, I was disappointed I missed these! I'll head up there in the next week. I hear there's a great coffee place nearby too.

 

But in all seriousness on the issue of commercial aspects of caches, I wonder whether or not there is a bright line. In placing a cache, I have sometimes included references to the area amenities available to cachers in an attempt to further entice them to find my hide. (i.e. - Find my hide and then enjoy a bite to eat or grab some coffee nearby). I don't see that as anything more than a foreseen extension of the available attributes. And I suppose we could even argue whether the proximity of a cache is a defacto commercial use of a geocache in some cases. Has anyone NOT claimed a find named, "Aways (something)" in a Walmart parking lot?

 

It's pretty clear. Referring to general amenities in an area is not what they are worried about.

 

Cache listings perceived as commercial will not be published. A commercial cache listing has one or more of the following characteristics:

 

It has overtones of advertising, marketing or promotion.

It suggests or requires that the finder go inside a business, interact with employees and/or purchase a product or service.

It contains links to businesses, agencies, commercial advertisers, charities, or political or social agendas.

It contains the logo of a business or organization, including non-profit organizations.

It contains the name of a business or commercial product.

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Back to the original post: they have just now been unarchived by the reviewer. There remain proximity, commercial, and railroad issues with this series.

 

Maybe we can use them as an example when we appeal because a reviewer will not publish our listings with proximity, commercial, and railroad issues. :ph34r:

Sounds like there were three strikes. Were the problems real or not? "Commercial" is debatable in some cases, but railroad and proximity are almost always clear cut.

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Cache listings perceived as commercial will not be published. A commercial cache listing has one or more of the following characteristics:

 

It has overtones of advertising, marketing or promotion.

It suggests or requires that the finder go inside a business, interact with employees and/or purchase a product or service.

It contains links to businesses, agencies, commercial advertisers, charities, or political or social agendas.

It contains the logo of a business or organization, including non-profit organizations.

It contains the name of a business or commercial product.

 

You just described the Timberland caches :ph34r:

 

Oh wait.. that's different..

 

Looks like "do what we say, not as we do".

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Back to the original post: they have just now been unarchived by the reviewer. There remain proximity, commercial, and railroad issues with this series.

 

Maybe we can use them as an example when we appeal because a reviewer will not publish our listings with proximity, commercial, and railroad issues. :ph34r:

Sounds like there were three strikes. Were the problems real or not? "Commercial" is debatable in some cases, but railroad and proximity are almost always clear cut.

 

Looks commerical to me. This morning it made me want coffee and toast, now I'm ready for a craft beer. :D

 

"Between Milan Coffee Works, the Mother Loaf, and Original Gravity Company. Residents are able to purchase handmade quality products. These three businesses are owner operated and offer phenomenal products. Milan Coffee Works roasts and brews its own coffee from raw coffee beans. The Mother Loaf bakery has the most amazing artisan breads around. Original Gravity is a destination for beer enthusiasts; all their brews are made in house and they offer a family friendly environment so everybody can enjoy. If you haven’t already tried products from these companies, we hope you will make a trip back soon."

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