Add coordinates to this log

[+The Rat]

Today after a second finder complained about a cache of mine that was "way off where it was supposed to be" I went out to find it. Sure enough, it was 77 feet from ground zero by my GPSr. I know right where I had hidden it and I returned it there. There was no reason for anyone to have moved it, so some previous finder had just lost track of where they'd found it and put it back somewhere else a long way away. It could even have been a muggle, although from the location, I seriously doubt that.

 

So the main culprit is the finder who was so sloppy in returning it so far off where they found it, but that's not what I want to discuss. If you find a cache at its posted location everyone knows you should return a cache there where you found it so no discussion is needed. What ticked me off is that two subsequent finders logged that they found the cache way off from the posted location and nothing more, although one did say it was 50 - 75 feet away without saying which direction. Of course, I first searched two wrong directions before finding the one today. I think a lot of people, newer cachers especially, are simply unaware of the proper geocaching etiquette for the situation when you find a cache way off the posted coordinates.

 

It's not always clear that you should return it to the correct location because your GPSr or phone app may not be accurate, or because the original location may now be unsuitable. If you're positive that you know where it was supposed to be and can return it there, then do so, but otherwise leave it where it is or put it in a safe location and post the coordinates in your log! There's a checkbox under the text box when you log just for this purpose. Please use it. If it's a puzzle cache, multi, or for some other reason you shouldn't post the exact coordinates, then either give a specific offset (e.g. "add .010 to the N and .004 to the W") or email the CO privately. Logging that you found it way off is almost useless. The CO and/or subsequent searchers then have to go out and search all over needlessly.

 

If you put it back, log that you put it back. Otherwise, posting alternate coordinates only takes a few seconds, but of course you have to remember to mark the actual location. If you forgot to do that and don't have them at the time you log, you can still achieve the useful result by simply describing where you found it, e.g. "About 70 feet along the fence line toward the lake from GZ" or "five trees to the left of where I zeroed out". In many cases you can get the exact coordinates of where you found it from Google Earth if you remember the details well enough and the photography is clear. The important point is to communicate what you found and what you did either in your log or in a communication directly to the CO. I prefer it to be in the log so that it's useful to the next searchers, too. Not all CO's are able or willing to do immediate maintenance. A corollary is that if you find a cache based on those alternate coordinates in a log, then state that in your log or repost them. Otherwise, eventually that log with the current coordinates falls off the front page and newer searchers will rely on the incorrect posted coordinates.

[+narcissa]

Great post.

[+Mudfrog]

I have found caches that my gpsr showed being quite a bit off from the listed coordinates. If i read the previous logs and saw no mention of coordinates being off in them, then i'd just attribute this to my unit having a bad day. On an established cache, i wouldn't automatically assume that the CO's listed coordinates were wrong or that someone moved the cache. I might mention in my log that my unit showed the cache being off but that's about as far as i would go.

 

On a brand new cache, yes, i would probably post my own coordinates in a log if it looked like the CO may have made a mistake.

Edited August 23, 2015 by Mudfrog

[+Ben0w]

If you're positive that you know where it was supposed to be and can return it there, then do so, but otherwise leave it where it is or put it in a safe location and post the coordinates in your log!

That's the only thing I'd do. With a very strong emphasis on "you know". If in doubt, even slightly, let it in it's actual (maybe wrong) place. It's the owner responsibility for maintenance and put it back where he/she really intended the cache to be in the first place.

 

I will give a set of my estimated coordinates or a projection, but I surely won't walk through the whole process of taking new reliable coordinates - this would include averaging multiple readings on several days. And it's not my responsibility to repost them. A "needs maintanance" log with "obviously far off here: x/y" should be enough to activate a responsible owner and warn other cachers.

 

If the owner has a problem finding it again, a former finder can be contacted.

 

If only in slightest doubt about the original place of the cache I would let it there where I found it. At least it's findable there. Often I'm in doubt if it is the right place. But then my hiding experiences may be other than of the owner, my GPSr may have a real bad day, I miscalculated the final coordinates and unknowingly had just luck or the owner intentionally put it in the off (bad habit in my book, but known). The probability for me to find the intended hiding spot is almost zero.

 

So it's clearly the owner's responsibility to (ASAP) take care of the correction of a misplaced cache. Not that of the latest finder, other than a little help as stated above.

 

There's a checkbox under the text box when you log just for this purpose.

Is that really for others? Where does that new set of coordinates appear then? I always had the impression that's only for my own purposes (like saving the final coordinates for a puzzle) and not shown to others. I never used it anyway since I have an independent tool for managing my caches.

 

I'd rather encourage to use a "needs maintenance" log for this purpose. This alerts the owner, warns other cachers and could easily be deleted when the owner feels things are right.

Edited August 23, 2015 by Ben0w

[+Ambrosia]

 

There's a checkbox under the text box when you log just for this purpose.

Is that really for others? Where does that new set of coordinates appear then? I always had the impression that's only for my own purposes (like saving the final coordinates for a puzzle) and not shown to others. I never used it anyway since I have an independent tool for managing my caches.

 

I'd rather encourage to use a "needs maintenance" log for this purpose. This alerts the owner, warns other cachers and could easily be deleted when the owner feels things are right.

 

If I remember correctly, the coordinates show up at the top of your log, bolded. I've really appreciated that in the past when people have done it on caches that were off or had difficulty satellites (I've done it a few times as well).

 

It is true, if the coordinates are really off, the owner needs to change them. If it's bad enough and the owner won't take care of it, a reviewer should intervene.

[+dprovan]

I always assume the cache is right where the CO left it. If that's true and I move it to where I think it should go, he may never find it. On the other hand, if it's not where the CO put it yet I found it, then I assume the CO can find it as easily as I did.

 

Posting coordinate can be helpful if I actually have good coordinates, but if you're going encourage people to post coordinates in general, then be prepared for plenty of bad coordinates being posted, too. To be honest, though, with someone of your stature, if I got a different answer, I'd assume it was a problem on my end, so I typically wouldn't trust my numbers enough to post them. (Although I have to admit, I'm having a hard time imagining finding a cache when it was 70' away from GZ.)

[+Path Pacer]

I haven't found a cache that far off the coords, but I'll keep this in mind if I ever do. (Frankly, I probably wouldn't find it at all if it's that far off.)

[+uxorious]

I have found caches that my gpsr showed being quite a bit off from the listed coordinates. If i read the previous logs and saw no mention of coordinates being off in them, then i'd just attribute this to my unit having a bad day. On an established cache, i wouldn't automatically assume that the CO's listed coordinates were wrong or that someone moved the cache. I might mention in my log that my unit showed the cache being off but that's about as far as i would go.

 

On a brand new cache, yes, i would probably post my own coordinates in a log if it looked like the CO may have made a mistake.

 

This is how I play it also.

 

There has been a couple times my GPSr has had me 40 or 50 ft. away, and no mention in the logs that others were having the same problem. I will log that my unit showed the cache off, and how much but that would be about it.(I would also state whether I used the hint to find it in this case. If there are other hint items in the area it would help the CO find it if it had, in fact, been moved.)

[+The Rat]

There's a checkbox under the text box when you log just for this purpose.

Is that really for others? Where does that new set of coordinates appear then? I always had the impression that's only for my own purposes (like saving the final coordinates for a puzzle) and not shown to others.

Yes, it is really for others, not for you. If you used it on a puzzle cache or multi you would be giving away the final coordinates to the world. Not good. If you want to save your puzzle solution, you should do that by clicking on the posted coordinates on the cache page, which then produces a popup box where you can enter those, not in your log.

[+JL_HSTRE]

If I find a cache 30+ ft off where my GPS thinks the coords are then I usually average the location while signing the log and include the result in my online log. I think this will help both the CO and other seekers.

 

I don't move the cache to a "better location" unless the container is exposed and on the ground, such as sitting next to a trail or in a area that has been burned or mowed. On these rare occasions the fix usually involves moving the container behind the nearest tree. If I have concerns that the location is altered or comprised I will alert the CO via a log or occasionally via message.

[+J Grouchy]

I always assume the cache is right where the CO left it. If that's true and I move it to where I think it should go, he may never find it. On the other hand, if it's not where the CO put it yet I found it, then I assume the CO can find it as easily as I did.

 

Posting coordinate can be helpful if I actually have good coordinates, but if you're going encourage people to post coordinates in general, then be prepared for plenty of bad coordinates being posted, too. To be honest, though, with someone of your stature, if I got a different answer, I'd assume it was a problem on my end, so I typically wouldn't trust my numbers enough to post them. (Although I have to admit, I'm having a hard time imagining finding a cache when it was 70' away from GZ.)

 

+1

I actually use log-posted coordinates in the event I have trouble finding a cache...so if the log-posted coordinates are to the wrong place, then it's misleading. Best just to contact the CO directly without posting coordinates in the Found It log.

[+captnemo]

If I find a cache at very different coordinates and it's not 100% clear where it should be I leave it where it is and post with my log the found coordinates, that's what that option is for. More then once a another cacher has used my coordinates to find a cache.

 

Other times I have found out one of my caches has been moved by others posting found coordinates and I am thankful. In the case that the found coordinates are wrong a maintenance done log from me will inform the world once the cache and the coordinates are correct.

 

I don't see a bunch of bad coordinates posted as a problem. If I go to a location using the COs coordinates and find nothing then I'll try coordinates others have posted and hunt til I find or DNF.

[+cerberus1]

I'm kinda surprised some really use it.

A new cachers caches, we might include a "Some reason, this is what we got..." in our log, and might help them fix it.

If coords are so bad that we might feel we'd like to add our own on an established hide, we email the CO.

- It's his cache. If something's wrong, he'd probably like to know, but not highlighted on the cache page.

 

I'm sure we aren't the only ones who see logs with, "our brand-new whizzbang top-o-the-line phone/GPSr showed this (10,20,30') off". Sometimes even with a NM.

- It can't possibly be them...

Being able to post bad coords when a few feet are concerned (I feel) just confuses things.

[+TriciaG]

We just found a cache. Our GPS was pointing us smack dab into a cedar hedgerow. The clue was the only thing that took us out of those cedars and over to a big tree trunk about 13m (40 ft) away.

 

Usually when this happens, I'll type out our coords into the Found It log. I had thought that the "add coords to this log" check box would add my current coords, which wouldn't work since I mostly log at home. So thanks to this thread, I tried it and posted my coords using the check box.

[+The Rat]

I think there's a dichotomy between the older and newer cachers on this. When I started in 2002 with my yellow eTrex, GPSr's were much less accurate than they are now. Both the satellites and the receivers are better now (and there are more satellites aloft). So it was very common even in relatively open areas for you to zero out 70 feet, even 100 to 200 feet away from where the cache is found. One CO around here back then was notorious for posting bad coords. He was too lazy to average for five or ten minutes, which was necessary back then. One set was off by over 400 feet, if I remember right. The owner was often off a lot and your unit would be too, multiplying the effect. So it was considered a courtesy to post the coordinates you marked when you found it for the benefit of the CO and future finders. Geocaching was simply a lot harder then. Owners would often watch the new coordinates appear in the logs over time and after several came up with a fairly consistent set of coordinates different from what was the original posted ones, would then change the posted ones to conform to this group "average". Posting your coordinates, especially in wooded areas or other bad reception areas, was part of the teamwork expected of fellow cachers. That's why that checkbox has been there since the beginning. Getting good coordinates was team effort. Now with good GPSrs and Google Earth, people expect caches to be within 20 - 30 feet of GZ almost always. Since they almost always are, newer cachers probably aren't aware of this "ethic."

 

Now, if a cache is off by a lot, e.g. 77 feet in my OP case, it's almost certainly because someone moved it, not because of the inaccuracy of of the GPSr. So the reason may be different, but the problem is the same. Future finders, including the CO trying to do maintenance, may not be able to find it; so it is still a courtesy to post your own coordinates when they are that far off. I wouldn't do it for anything less than about 35-40 feet or so.

[+J Grouchy]

There's a local cacher that posts coordinates on the majority of his logs. It's really too much...almost busybody-ish, as if nobody can possibly provide coordinates as accurate as him.

 

Misplaced caches should be communicated privately to the CO...not posted with updated coordinates in a log.

[+The A-Team]

If I find a cache 30+ ft off where my GPS thinks the coords are then I usually average the location while signing the log and include the result in my online log. I think this will help both the CO and other seekers.

 

I don't move the cache to a "better location" unless the container is exposed and on the ground, such as sitting next to a trail or in a area that has been burned or mowed. On these rare occasions the fix usually involves moving the container behind the nearest tree. If I have concerns that the location is altered or comprised I will alert the CO via a log or occasionally via message.

^This

 

If I find a cache and my GPSr shows it more than about 8-10 metres away when I'm standing at the cache, I take the time to get as accurate a set of coordinates as I can. I see this as providing useful data to both the CO and subsequent finders. When I submit my log, I'll enter my coordinates in the "Add coordinates" field as described, but also state the coordinates in the body of my log along with the distance and rough direction from the posted coordinates. I restate the coordinates in my log because not all paperless devices will display the "Add coordinates" data, so the only way they'd be able to see the coordinates would be in the body of the log.

 

It was a few years into my caching career when I started doing this. There was a local cacher who frequently did this, and their additional coordinates helped many people - including myself on many occasions - locate a cache. It would also be a good feeling to be stumped at a cache and reading past logs to see people say "Found it using XXXX's coordinates", at which point I'd look for their log and the coordinates. They set a good enough example that I decided to start doing it myself, and I've now done it on probably hundreds of caches. I have no problem spending a few extra minutes at a cache to get an accurate set of coordinates if it will help the CO or other finders.

[+Mudfrog]

Posting your coordinates, especially in wooded areas or other bad reception areas, was part of the teamwork expected of fellow cachers. That's why that checkbox has been there since the beginning. Getting good coordinates was team effort. Now with good GPSrs and Google Earth, people expect caches to be within 20 - 30 feet of GZ almost always. Since they almost always are, newer cachers probably aren't aware of this "ethic."

 

Been doing this a long time myself and only recall seeing this feature utilized a handful of times. I myself have posted an "update coordinates" log maybe 10 times that i can remember in the years i've been caching. I wouldn't call doing this, a part of geocaching ethics. There are a few good reasons and times to use the feature but not all that often.

 

Yes, gps receivers have gotten better but i'd guess that we're in about the same predicament we were 12 years ago. I'll get flamed a bit but i figure that with the influx of phone use, that many phones, at least the ones like mine, don't do as well using their built in gps receivers. I do seem to come across more geocaches with inaccurate coordinates these days than i did a few years ago.

 

In the end, it doesn't bother me any when i come across coordinates in a log. A few of them have actually came in handy narrowing down a cache and i thank the loggers who posted them for that. But again, these were on caches where it was obvious the owner of the cache made a mistake.

[+J Grouchy]

Posting your coordinates, especially in wooded areas or other bad reception areas, was part of the teamwork expected of fellow cachers. That's why that checkbox has been there since the beginning. Getting good coordinates was team effort. Now with good GPSrs and Google Earth, people expect caches to be within 20 - 30 feet of GZ almost always. Since they almost always are, newer cachers probably aren't aware of this "ethic."

 

Been doing this a long time myself and only recall seeing this feature utilized a handful of times. I myself have posted an "update coordinates" log maybe 10 times that i can remember in the years i've been caching. I wouldn't call doing this, a part of geocaching ethics. There are a few good reasons and times to use the feature but not all that often.

 

Yes, gps receivers have gotten better but i'd guess that we're in about the same predicament we were 12 years ago. I'll get flamed a bit but i figure that with the influx of phone use, that many phones, at least the ones like mine, don't do as well using their built in gps receivers. I do seem to come across more geocaches with inaccurate coordinates these days than i did a few years ago.

 

In the end, it doesn't bother me any when i come across coordinates in a log. A few of them have actually came in handy narrowing down a cache and i thank the loggers who posted them for that. But again, these were on caches where it was obvious the owner of the cache made a mistake.

 

No flaming here...

I think that has more to do with lack of knowledge. People expect the GPS to only need to give them a single reading instead of having to average coordinates or take them multiple times. There's a big difference, however, between using your phone to navigate to a restaurant and using it to locate a precise set of coordinates. The former is far more tolerant of variation over dozens or even hundreds of feet, the latter...not so much. Phones can be precise, but those with GPSrs are trained from the get-go about averaging waypoints and imprecision of a single reading.

Edited August 25, 2015 by J Grouchy

[+K13]

When one checks the box to add coordinates to the log, WHERE DO THESE COORDINATES COME FROM? Are the coordinates automatically populated by the website? Does the logger have to enter them from his GPS, provided he took a mark while in the field? Is this a feature that has lost ved past its useful lifetime?

[+narcissa]

When one checks the box to add coordinates to the log, WHERE DO THESE COORDINATES COME FROM? Are the coordinates automatically populated by the website? Does the logger have to enter them from his GPS, provided he took a mark while in the field? Is this a feature that has lost ved past its useful lifetime?

 

You enter them manually after taking a waypoint at the cache.

[+dprovan]

When one checks the box to add coordinates to the log, WHERE DO THESE COORDINATES COME FROM? Are the coordinates automatically populated by the website? Does the logger have to enter them from his GPS, provided he took a mark while in the field? Is this a feature that has lost ved past its useful lifetime?

You enter them manually after taking a waypoint at the cache.

To be precise, the website populates the fields with the posted coordinates, and you adjust them according to what your GPSr told you at the scene.

[+BCandMsKitty]

Ive been reading here where folks get concerned when their GPS unit takes them 8 to 10 meters from the cache. When I come across a situation like that I do absolutely nothing!

8 to 10 meters (approx. 20 to 30 feet) is nothing, and is as accurate as one will get more often than not. Posting other coords based on one being 30 feet away is just posting another set of coords that are probably going to be 30 feet off for someone else.

The OP,s 70+ feet is a different matter. I'd probably react to something like that, but I'd just mark the location and let the CO do anything else. I wouldn't worry about "accurate Coordinates" Just a simple marking will be sufficient to let the CO know the cache might have wandered and allow them to find it easily.

[+narcissa]

We looked for one recently that had coordinates that were pretty bad and would have taken us onto private property if we had stuck with them.

 

At some point, another cacher posted better coordinates, but those did not show up in our GPSrs because several others had logged the cache since. Some of them mentioned the updated coordinates, so we fired up the website on a phone, looked back to get the coordinates, and used them to find the cache.

 

When I wrote my log, I used the coordinates function to sort of "pay forward" the coordinates that helped us so the next few finders don't have to try searching through dozens of logs while they're in the field.

[+dprovan]

8 to 10 meters (approx. 20 to 30 feet) is nothing, and is as accurate as one will get more often than not.

In my area, I'm almost always within 10' for any cache hidden by an experienced CO.

[+The A-Team]

8 to 10 meters (approx. 20 to 30 feet) is nothing, and is as accurate as one will get more often than not.

That probably varies regionally depending on many variables including the type of terrain, number of tall buildings nearby, etc., but I don't see the same as you. I'd say in 90-95% of the caches I've found (across a wide variety of environments), my GPSr said I was 5-6 metres or less from the posted coordinates when standing at the container, with 2-4 metres being the most common. 8-10+ metres is rare enough that I consider it sufficiently abnormal to take and suggest my own coordinates.

 

Maybe people are just more apt to use "soft" coordinates in your area?