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Which date can you use to log a challenge cache


camillabacher
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I obviously agree that you find the physical container on the day you find the physical container, and the date I put on the challenge cache's physical log is always the date I found the container.

 

But simply finding the challenge's physical container isn't enough to log on online "Found it" on Groundspeak; you also have to meet the challenge's requirements. Personally, I date my online "Found it" log to be the day I am eligible to log my online "Found it," which sometimes will be long after the day I found its physical container.

 

But I'm okay if others always date their challenge cache online "Found its" as the day they found the containers. As I noted before, vive la différence.

What do you do when a challenge cache is replicated in another place? Do you really log your finds on the same day?

 

What if you qualified for the cache before it was created? Did you find it before it existed?

I'm not sure you fully understand how challenge caches work. To log an online "Found it," you don't simply have to fulfill their requirements; you also must sign their physical logs.

 

If I've already qualified for a challenge cache that is replicated elsewhere, then I cannot log an online "Found it" until I sign that new challenge cache's log.

But you are logging your found it as the date you qualified, not the date you found it. So all instances of that particular challenge would have the same date.

Please don't try to put your words into my mouth. Instead take a moment to reread what I actually wrote. I date my online "Found it" log to be the day I am eligible to log my online "Found it." That's either the day I meet the challenge cache's requirements or the day I signed the challenge cache's physical log, whichever day is later.

 

Why would you find/sign the cache before meeting the challenge requirement?

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Here we go again... Yes I need to quote this infamous quote by Jeremy himself.

 

Bickering over the rules of a cache "find" was never the intent of Geocaching.com. There's no prize, no leaderboard, and no trophy, so there's no reason to get your knickers in a twist about anyone else's definition of a find.

Whenever I see this quote, I wonder if this is the same Jeremy who railed against counting "pocket caches" as finds. Is this the same Geocaching.com that archives virtuals if their owners continue to allow armchair logging? Is this the same Geocaching.com that archives webcam caches if their owners continue to allow selfies as substitutes for webcam pictures? Is this the same Geocaching.com that archives traditional caches if their owners continue to allow photo logging instead of replacing the missing cache? Is this the same Geocaching.com that doesn't allow people to log "attended" for events if they only interact via live streaming? Is this the same Geocaching.com that deletes accounts of people who use "bots" to log thousands of false finds?

 

It might never have been their intent to get involved in these matters, but they have.

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I obviously agree that you find the physical container on the day you find the physical container, and the date I put on the challenge cache's physical log is always the date I found the container.

 

But simply finding the challenge's physical container isn't enough to log on online "Found it" on Groundspeak; you also have to meet the challenge's requirements. Personally, I date my online "Found it" log to be the day I am eligible to log my online "Found it," which sometimes will be long after the day I found its physical container.

 

But I'm okay if others always date their challenge cache online "Found its" as the day they found the containers. As I noted before, vive la différence.

What do you do when a challenge cache is replicated in another place? Do you really log your finds on the same day?

 

What if you qualified for the cache before it was created? Did you find it before it existed?

I'm not sure you fully understand how challenge caches work. To log an online "Found it," you don't simply have to fulfill their requirements; you also must sign their physical logs.

 

If I've already qualified for a challenge cache that is replicated elsewhere, then I cannot log an online "Found it" until I sign that new challenge cache's log.

But you are logging your found it as the date you qualified, not the date you found it. So all instances of that particular challenge would have the same date.

Please don't try to put your words into my mouth. Instead take a moment to reread what I actually wrote. I date my online "Found it" log to be the day I am eligible to log my online "Found it." That's either the day I meet the challenge cache's requirements or the day I signed the challenge cache's physical log, whichever day is later.

 

Why would you find/sign the cache before meeting the challenge requirement?

 

Why not? It's a cache, so you can find it. It has a log sheet, so you can sign it. You can even date it January 42nd, 3871 if you so choose.

Edited by J Grouchy
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Why would you find/sign the cache before meeting the challenge requirement?

Why not? Different people geocache differently. Vive la différence!

 

Indeed. :rolleyes:

 

So, circling back to the date thing, following your method, if I, for whatever reason,decide to find and sign a dozen of those grid challenge caches around the world, and then qualify for the grid challenge thing after the fact, all of them would be logged with the same date.

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Why would you find/sign the cache before meeting the challenge requirement?

Why not? Different people geocache differently. Vive la différence!

 

Indeed. :rolleyes:

 

So, circling back to the date thing, following your method, if I, for whatever reason,decide to find and sign a dozen of those grid challenge caches around the world, and then qualify for the grid challenge thing after the fact, all of them would be logged with the same date.

 

So?

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So, circling back to the date thing, following your method, if I, for whatever reason,decide to find and sign a dozen of those grid challenge caches around the world, and then qualify for the grid challenge thing after the fact, all of them would be logged with the same date.

Yep. Perhaps that might bother you; it doesn't bother me. Vive la différence!

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So, circling back to the date thing, following your method, if I, for whatever reason,decide to find and sign a dozen of those grid challenge caches around the world, and then qualify for the grid challenge thing after the fact, all of them would be logged with the same date.

Yep. Perhaps that might bother you; it doesn't bother me. Vive la différence!

 

I just find it puzzling that actually finding the cache has no value.

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So, circling back to the date thing, following your method, if I, for whatever reason,decide to find and sign a dozen of those grid challenge caches around the world, and then qualify for the grid challenge thing after the fact, all of them would be logged with the same date.

Yep. Perhaps that might bother you; it doesn't bother me. Vive la différence!

 

I just find it puzzling that actually finding the cache has no value.

 

Well...did you say this during the whole "moratorium on challenge caches" debate? That really would have been the time to say it.

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So, circling back to the date thing, following your method, if I, for whatever reason,decide to find and sign a dozen of those grid challenge caches around the world, and then qualify for the grid challenge thing after the fact, all of them would be logged with the same date.

Yep. Perhaps that might bother you; it doesn't bother me. Vive la différence!

I just find it puzzling that actually finding the cache has no value.

Who says finding the cache has no value? To log an online "Found it" for a challenge cache, you need to do two things:

 

1. Find the cache and sign its physical log.

 

2. Meet the challenge requirements.

 

If you don't find the cache, you don't get that online smiley. Seems to me that finding the cache has some value for people who want those smileys.

Edited by CanadianRockies
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Why would you find/sign the cache before meeting the challenge requirement?

 

I experienced a Challenge that needed to be found and the log signed before completing the challenge - first as an explicit instruction as part of the challenge, but also because of a technical quirk in the logic that I am sure the cache owner understood.

 

The Challenge was to find and log the cache closest to my "cache centroid". After signing that cache log book I was then qualified to log the Challenge cache as found and then log the cache centroid on line. I found several other caches before finding the one closest to my cache centroid, so I was always recalculating the centroid to ensure that I found the cache closest to the centroid.

 

Logically, if one had waited to find and sign the log book of the Challenge cache after finding and logging the cache which was closest to the centroid, the mere fact of finding and logging that centroid cache online would have changed the centroid - so one would never have been able to technically satisfy the Challenge and it would have become an endless loop. However, having signed the Challenge cache log book first (and choosing to post a note to that effect on its page) I qualified to log it as found as soon as I signed the log book of the centroid cache. I then logged the Challenge online as Found and then the centroid cache online as found.

 

I am sure that the Challenge cache owner wouldn't be overly concerned, if the signings were not in the correct order, but that is the way that I chose to interpret and complete the challenge.

Edited by Nonsuch30
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So, circling back to the date thing, following your method, if I, for whatever reason,decide to find and sign a dozen of those grid challenge caches around the world, and then qualify for the grid challenge thing after the fact, all of them would be logged with the same date.

Yep. Perhaps that might bother you; it doesn't bother me. Vive la différence!

I just find it puzzling that actually finding the cache has no value.

Who says finding the cache has no value? To log an online "Found it" for a challenge cache, you need to do two things:

 

1. Find the cache and sign its physical log.

 

2. Meet the challenge requirements.

 

If you don't find the cache, you don't get that online smiley. Seems to me that finding the cache has some value for people who want those smileys.

 

But apparently not enough value that the act of finding the cache is worthy of its own trip, or a valid find log with the correct date.

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The date you visited the site is the appropriate date. No need to get silly and convoluted about something so black and white.

The world I live in isn't black and white; there are many shades of gray and a rainbow of colors. My world might be more complex, but it's well worth the complexity.

The world may be complex, but this issue isn't. You find a geocache when you find it. You visit a place when you visit it.

Ah, but what constitutes a geocache "find" involves shades of gray (and even, perhaps, a bit of color). Or maybe you can offer us a simple definition of a geocache "find?"

I'm gonna have to go with Narcissa on this one. Even the guidelines make a distinction between "finding" and "meeting the challenge". You found it when you saw it, picked it up, and signed the paper log. You met the challenge when you completed all of the tasks that the cache owner required. Now, which of those situations you chose to use as your log date is what this is all about. Me, I'd use the date that I found it, because of the few challenge caches that I have done, I had already met the challenge. But that's just me.

I obviously agree that you find the physical container on the day you find the physical container, and the date I put on the challenge cache's physical log is always the date I found the container.

 

But simply finding the challenge's physical container isn't enough to log on online "Found it" on Groundspeak; you also have to meet the challenge's requirements. Personally, I date my online "Found it" log to be the day I am eligible to log my online "Found it," which sometimes will be long after the day I found its physical container.

 

But I'm okay if others always date their challenge cache online "Found its" as the day they found the containers. As I noted before, vive la différence.

 

The key is the word, "Found". It isn't a Did It log. It is a Found It log.

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Here we go again... Yes I need to quote this infamous quote by Jeremy himself.

 

Bickering over the rules of a cache "find" was never the intent of Geocaching.com. There's no prize, no leaderboard, and no trophy, so there's no reason to get your knickers in a twist about anyone else's definition of a find.

 

That's one man's opinion. And it really doesn't apply to this question anyway, does it?

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Why would you find/sign the cache before meeting the challenge requirement?

Why not? Different people geocache differently. Vive la différence!

 

That happens all the time around here. If folks are in the neighborhood, they'll find and log the cache, then wait until they either meet the challenge, or verify that they already have, before logging online.

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...apparently not enough value that the act of finding the cache is worthy of its own trip, or a valid find log with the correct date.

Okay, you've made your personal view perfectly clear. It's time to stop acting like your own view is the only correct one. There is no single "correct" date (see the discussion above). Feel free to log challenge caches the way you want, and leave others to do it the way they want. If it fits within the guidelines (which it does), then they aren't doing anything wrong.

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...apparently not enough value that the act of finding the cache is worthy of its own trip, or a valid find log with the correct date.

Okay, you've made your personal view perfectly clear. It's time to stop acting like your own view is the only correct one. There is no single "correct" date (see the discussion above). Feel free to log challenge caches the way you want, and leave others to do it the way they want. If it fits within the guidelines (which it does), then they aren't doing anything wrong.

 

If I CO stipulated that the log date had to be the date on which one found the physical container, would that be an ALR?

 

All this drama about logging dates and whether one must complete the challenge before finding the cache can't be good for the moratorium on challenge caches.

 

 

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All this drama about logging dates and whether one must complete the challenge before finding the cache can't be good for the moratorium on challenge caches.

 

In any case, it's Groundspeak's fault to have changed the guidelines to allow an arbitrary order of qualification and find of the challenge cache and at the same time having

published lots of challenge caches which make no sense if the order is arbitrary (e.g. all those challenge caches where the task is to have a certain number of finds, e.g. a palindrome,

a prime number etc). They should have decided for either or - having both is inconsistent and silly.

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All this drama about logging dates and whether one must complete the challenge before finding the cache can't be good for the moratorium on challenge caches.
Oh, I don't think the moratorium cares one way or the other. ;)

 

But it probably isn't helping the cause of those who want challenge caches to resume unchanged once the moratorium ends. Not that I think that that is a likely outcome anyway.

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But it probably isn't helping the cause of those who want challenge caches to resume unchanged once the moratorium ends. Not that I think that that is a likely outcome anyway.

 

I think the decision about challenge caches has been made already.

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I'm going to be in Paris for a week in September. I know from looking at some of the cache listings that there are a few challenge caches. One of them is close to the place where I'll be staying and pretty on may to where I'll be working a couple of days. I'm pretty sure that I haven't already met the criteria for the challenge but it's pretty achievable (though, it would be pretty difficult if I don't go to an area about 35 miles from here to do some caching). So, are you saying that I shouldn't find the physical container and sign the log even if I happen to be passing within a couple hundred km from GZ?
I wouldn't. You could try to fulfill the requirements beforehand though.
I could, but it's unlikely that I'm going to travel the 3600 miles back to Paris if I complete the requirements after I've returned from my trip.
There are plenty of other caches around so I wouldn't worry about a missed challenge (or other cache for that matter).
Sure, there are other caches around, but for me, there are very few challenge caches in my area (last I checked, there were 3 within 40 miles and I've already done two of them). When I travel I typically have very little time to do any caching so one that happens to be close to where I'm staying or enroute to places I'll already be going is one that I'm likely going to try and find. Even if it happens to be a challenge cache I may still take the opportunity to find the container when I'm close to it and may never have to opportunity to do so again.

 

Hey NYPaddleCacher. If you want challenge caches take a drive to Hamilton Ontario, Canada (we call it "Challengeville"). We even have a challenge trail about 10 miles long with nothing but challenge caches. This is a case in point. There are some 50+ challenge caches on the trail. If you were to have to meet the requirements before physically finding and signing the physical log you would be biking (or walking) the trail (it's rail trail) you would likely have to make the trip multiple times which is not practical and most cachers (that I know) would not do it that way.

 

Bushman002

Edited by Bushman002
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So, circling back to the date thing, following your method, if I, for whatever reason,decide to find and sign a dozen of those grid challenge caches around the world, and then qualify for the grid challenge thing after the fact, all of them would be logged with the same date.

Yep. Perhaps that might bother you; it doesn't bother me. Vive la différence!

Obviously, you are allowed to log on whatever date you like, but I can see a couple of potential problems with logging on the date you qualified, rather than the date you visited the site.

 

Let's assume you came to Australia some time ago and found my 2,000Km challenge. You also found a number of similar challenge caches at various times, maybe in other countries and then you qualified for them all sometime within the last 3 weeks. When I received notification that you had found my cache I would be mildly suspicious because the cache was actually disabled and the container was sitting in my shed. So, I look at your finds and discover that you had logged finds all over the world on the same day. Unless your found log was crystal clear, I would delete your find.

 

Second potential problem. Those find logs would completely invalidate your distance statistics and would make your qualification for something like this cache a complete nonsense.

 

If that doesn't bother you, all well and good. No worries. I'll stick to logging the find on the day I found the container, changing a write note to a found, if necessary.

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So, circling back to the date thing, following your method, if I, for whatever reason,decide to find and sign a dozen of those grid challenge caches around the world, and then qualify for the grid challenge thing after the fact, all of them would be logged with the same date.

Yep. Perhaps that might bother you; it doesn't bother me. Vive la différence!

Obviously, you are allowed to log on whatever date you like, but I can see a couple of potential problems with logging on the date you qualified, rather than the date you visited the site.

 

Let's assume you came to Australia some time ago and found my 2,000Km challenge. You also found a number of similar challenge caches at various times, maybe in other countries and then you qualified for them all sometime within the last 3 weeks. When I received notification that you had found my cache I would be mildly suspicious because the cache was actually disabled and the container was sitting in my shed. So, I look at your finds and discover that you had logged finds all over the world on the same day. Unless your found log was crystal clear, I would delete your find.

 

 

If the container was sitting in your shed, it would be likely (albeit not absolutely certain) that you also had the logbook in your possession, would it not?

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Obviously, you are allowed to log on whatever date you like, but I can see a couple of potential problems with logging on the date you qualified, rather than the date you visited the site.

 

Let's assume you came to Australia some time ago and found my 2,000Km challenge. You also found a number of similar challenge caches at various times, maybe in other countries and then you qualified for them all sometime within the last 3 weeks. When I received notification that you had found my cache I would be mildly suspicious because the cache was actually disabled and the container was sitting in my shed. So, I look at your finds and discover that you had logged finds all over the world on the same day. Unless your found log was crystal clear, I would delete your find.

If I pre-sign a challenge cache, then I log a "Write note" indicating that I have found the cache and signed the log but haven't completed the requirements yet. If I eventually do complete the requirements, then I log a "Found it" that mentions the date I signed the physical log and documents how I now qualify.

 

If you delete my find, I'll re-log it with an explanation that makes this chronology even clearer.

 

Second potential problem. Those find logs would completely invalidate your distance statistics and would make your qualification for something like this cache a complete nonsense.

 

If that doesn't bother you, all well and good. No worries. I'll stick to logging the find on the day I found the container, changing a write note to a found, if necessary.

I'm aware of this issue and understand why some people prefer to always log their "Found its" on the same days they signed the challenge caches physical logs. I have no problems with them doing so. I, however, couldn't care less about that statistic, which is often inaccurate for other reasons.

 

I probably would never attempt the type of challenge that you linked to. If I did, then it's not my problem that the challenge cache owner opted to use a statistic that can be "complete nonsense."

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I normally don't sign the log until after I've qualified for the challenge. Then I log the find that same date. Keeps it simple.

That's the way I plan to do it. I'm working on several challenge caches at the moment. I have no intention of trying to find any of them before meeting the requirements.

 

That's fine, but I have no problem with people who find the cache, log a note stating that they are working on the challenge then log the "find" when they complete the challenge. Whether you used the date you actually found the cache, or when you completed the challenge is a matter of personal preference.

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If the container was sitting in your shed, it would be likely (albeit not absolutely certain) that you also had the logbook in your possession, would it not?

In this case, no. The previous container had been muggled.

 

Depending on how long ago the cache had been found, it might be before the current logbook.

 

Anyway, provided there is a reference back to a write note there's no harm done.

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I date my online "Found it" log to be the day I am eligible to log my online "Found it." That's either the day I meet the challenge cache's requirements or the day I signed the challenge cache's physical log, whichever day is later.

 

Right. It's not complicated, but there are 2 different approaches. Again, keeping in mind that to log "found it" on a challenge cache you need to complete 2 tasks in any order. 1) Find the cache 2) qualify for the challenge. Now, if you qualify first then find/sign later, there is no issue. But if you signed first, you have a choice:

 

A. Use the date you qualify to log "found it".

B. Use the date you physically found it

 

Both work.

 

If you choose A, there can be a side effect relating to distance. Let's say there are 10 challenge caches in 10 countries for "challenge X" where I already signed the logs in the past but didn't qualify. Today I finally qualify. If I log those 10 caches with today's date it looks like I was in 10 countries today.

 

If you choose B, as of the date you claim "Found it", you didn't actually qualify for logging "Found it".

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But apparently not enough value that the act of finding the cache is worthy of its own trip, or a valid find log with the correct date.

I get that you're talking about a separate trip once the challenge is complete, but unless I'm mistaken, they already are on a trip (or they wouldn't be there to sign the log in the first place) and are signing the log as they think it's a worthy challenge/worthy cache to consider signing it, even if they don't qualify. If they have no intention of completing the challenge, why stop to sign it?

 

Personally, I don't do it that way (and apparently you don't either), but I have no problems with anyone who does because it has no bearing on me whatsoever, even if it's my cache. Why should anyone really care about how others play the game, in this situation? I'm with NYPaddler on this one.

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But apparently not enough value that the act of finding the cache is worthy of its own trip, or a valid find log with the correct date.

I get that you're talking about a separate trip once the challenge is complete, but unless I'm mistaken, they already are on a trip (or they wouldn't be there to sign the log in the first place) and are signing the log as they think it's a worthy challenge/worthy cache to consider signing it, even if they don't qualify. If they have no intention of completing the challenge, why stop to sign it?

 

Personally, I don't do it that way (and apparently you don't either), but I have no problems with anyone who does because it has no bearing on me whatsoever, even if it's my cache. Why should anyone really care about how others play the game, in this situation?

 

I've seen notes on challenge caches that we "just in case" because they were in the area.

 

I'm not advocating any sort of rule change. I'm just trying to wrap my head around this because it's kind of strange to me that people make such a fuss about challenge caches but don't actually seem to value the cache itself.

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But apparently not enough value that the act of finding the cache is worthy of its own trip, or a valid find log with the correct date.

I get that you're talking about a separate trip once the challenge is complete, but unless I'm mistaken, they already are on a trip (or they wouldn't be there to sign the log in the first place) and are signing the log as they think it's a worthy challenge/worthy cache to consider signing it, even if they don't qualify. If they have no intention of completing the challenge, why stop to sign it?

 

Personally, I don't do it that way (and apparently you don't either), but I have no problems with anyone who does because it has no bearing on me whatsoever, even if it's my cache. Why should anyone really care about how others play the game, in this situation?

 

I've seen notes on challenge caches that we "just in case" because they were in the area.

 

I'm not advocating any sort of rule change. I'm just trying to wrap my head around this because it's kind of strange to me that people make such a fuss about challenge caches but don't actually seem to value the cache itself.

 

I believe you are absolutely correct there. It is NOT about the cache. It is about the challenge met. The cache itself, for them, is simply a way to finalize their goal. But what's new about that? Power trails aren't about the cache, either. Nor are LPCs, stop sign bison tubes, even may puzzle cache finals.

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I generally don't go out of my way to do challenges. But if I did, I'd probably try and find the physical cache first so I could work on the ALR at my own leisure. I'd hate to spend significant effort completing the ALR of the challenge, and then find out the physical cache got archived before I had a chance to sign it or complete the challenges ALR portion.

 

At least if I signed the logbook first, I could complete the challenge years after the physical cache was archived.

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I generally don't go out of my way to do challenges. But if I did, I'd probably try and find the physical cache first so I could work on the ALR at my own leisure. I'd hate to spend significant effort completing the ALR of the challenge, and then find out the physical cache got archived before I had a chance to sign it or complete the challenges ALR portion.

 

At least if I signed the logbook first, I could complete the challenge years after the physical cache was archived.

 

Exactly. And despite the consternation of some folks here, I have a couple "just in case" notes on challenges out there.

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Simple. Don't allow pre-logging. Oops- can't do that under the current guidelines. That's one that should be reversed in my opinion, your may vary.
My guess is that the New™ Improved™ Totally Redesigned™ Challenge Cache Replacement System™ will make pre-logging a non-issue. But that may be merely my own wishful thinking.
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I generally don't go out of my way to do challenges. But if I did, I'd probably try and find the physical cache first so I could work on the ALR at my own leisure. I'd hate to spend significant effort completing the ALR of the challenge, and then find out the physical cache got archived before I had a chance to sign it or complete the challenges ALR portion.

 

At least if I signed the logbook first, I could complete the challenge years after the physical cache was archived.

 

Exactly. And despite the consternation of some folks here, I have a couple "just in case" notes on challenges out there.

 

So the accomplishment associated with the challenge cache has no value if you can't log the cache?

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I generally don't go out of my way to do challenges. But if I did, I'd probably try and find the physical cache first so I could work on the ALR at my own leisure. I'd hate to spend significant effort completing the ALR of the challenge, and then find out the physical cache got archived before I had a chance to sign it or complete the challenges ALR portion.

 

At least if I signed the logbook first, I could complete the challenge years after the physical cache was archived.

 

Exactly. And despite the consternation of some folks here, I have a couple "just in case" notes on challenges out there.

 

So the accomplishment associated with the challenge cache has no value if you can't log the cache?

 

I am likely very dense, but I have been unable to ascertain what you are driving at.

 

I was in an area on a cache outing. In that area was a challenge cache that I did not yet qualify for. I had fun locating the quality cache hide. I placed a note and date in the physical log book explaining that I signed the log but did not yet qualify to record a find. I put a place holder/reminder note on the cache page stating the same thing. When I actually meet the requirements for the smiley I will look at the note to remind me of the date that I made the find. I am at a loss regarding your concerns about the "value" of the cache. Please elaborate

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I generally don't go out of my way to do challenges. But if I did, I'd probably try and find the physical cache first so I could work on the ALR at my own leisure. I'd hate to spend significant effort completing the ALR of the challenge, and then find out the physical cache got archived before I had a chance to sign it or complete the challenges ALR portion.

 

At least if I signed the logbook first, I could complete the challenge years after the physical cache was archived.

 

Exactly. And despite the consternation of some folks here, I have a couple "just in case" notes on challenges out there.

 

So the accomplishment associated with the challenge cache has no value if you can't log the cache?

 

I am likely very dense, but I have been unable to ascertain what you are driving at.

 

I was in an area on a cache outing. In that area was a challenge cache that I did not yet qualify for. I had fun locating the quality cache hide. I placed a note and date in the physical log book explaining that I signed the log but did not yet qualify to record a find. I put a place holder/reminder note on the cache page stating the same thing. When I actually meet the requirements for the smiley I will look at the note to remind me of the date that I made the find. I am at a loss regarding your concerns about the "value" of the cache. Please elaborate

 

It just seems weird to me.

 

I just wouldn't spend my caching time finding caches that I might never be able to log, but I don't do those trail things with hundreds of caches so I guess I'll just never get it.

Edited by narcissa
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I generally don't go out of my way to do challenges. But if I did, I'd probably try and find the physical cache first so I could work on the ALR at my own leisure. I'd hate to spend significant effort completing the ALR of the challenge, and then find out the physical cache got archived before I had a chance to sign it or complete the challenges ALR portion.

 

At least if I signed the logbook first, I could complete the challenge years after the physical cache was archived.

 

Exactly. And despite the consternation of some folks here, I have a couple "just in case" notes on challenges out there.

 

So the accomplishment associated with the challenge cache has no value if you can't log the cache?

 

I am likely very dense, but I have been unable to ascertain what you are driving at.

 

I was in an area on a cache outing. In that area was a challenge cache that I did not yet qualify for. I had fun locating the quality cache hide. I placed a note and date in the physical log book explaining that I signed the log but did not yet qualify to record a find. I put a place holder/reminder note on the cache page stating the same thing. When I actually meet the requirements for the smiley I will look at the note to remind me of the date that I made the find. I am at a loss regarding your concerns about the "value" of the cache. Please elaborate

 

It just seems weird to me.

 

I just wouldn't spend my caching time finding caches that I might never be able to log, but I don't do those trail things with hundreds of caches so I guess I'll just never get it.

 

I don't do power trails either. Nor do I know what that has to do with the subject.

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I generally don't go out of my way to do challenges. But if I did, I'd probably try and find the physical cache first so I could work on the ALR at my own leisure. I'd hate to spend significant effort completing the ALR of the challenge, and then find out the physical cache got archived before I had a chance to sign it or complete the challenges ALR portion.

 

At least if I signed the logbook first, I could complete the challenge years after the physical cache was archived.

 

Exactly. And despite the consternation of some folks here, I have a couple "just in case" notes on challenges out there.

 

So the accomplishment associated with the challenge cache has no value if you can't log the cache?

 

I am likely very dense, but I have been unable to ascertain what you are driving at.

 

I was in an area on a cache outing. In that area was a challenge cache that I did not yet qualify for. I had fun locating the quality cache hide. I placed a note and date in the physical log book explaining that I signed the log but did not yet qualify to record a find. I put a place holder/reminder note on the cache page stating the same thing. When I actually meet the requirements for the smiley I will look at the note to remind me of the date that I made the find. I am at a loss regarding your concerns about the "value" of the cache. Please elaborate

 

It just seems weird to me.

 

I just wouldn't spend my caching time finding caches that I might never be able to log, but I don't do those trail things with hundreds of caches so I guess I'll just never get it.

 

I don't do power trails either. Nor do I know what that has to do with the subject.

 

It just seems to be part of the same style of play to me. I'm more selective about caches I find, so I wouldn't go out to a cache that I knew I couldn't log. There are so many other caches that I can find, it just doesn't make sense to chase ones that I can't.

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I generally don't go out of my way to do challenges. But if I did, I'd probably try and find the physical cache first so I could work on the ALR at my own leisure. I'd hate to spend significant effort completing the ALR of the challenge, and then find out the physical cache got archived before I had a chance to sign it or complete the challenges ALR portion.

 

At least if I signed the logbook first, I could complete the challenge years after the physical cache was archived.

 

Exactly. And despite the consternation of some folks here, I have a couple "just in case" notes on challenges out there.

 

So the accomplishment associated with the challenge cache has no value if you can't log the cache?

 

I am likely very dense, but I have been unable to ascertain what you are driving at.

 

I was in an area on a cache outing. In that area was a challenge cache that I did not yet qualify for. I had fun locating the quality cache hide. I placed a note and date in the physical log book explaining that I signed the log but did not yet qualify to record a find. I put a place holder/reminder note on the cache page stating the same thing. When I actually meet the requirements for the smiley I will look at the note to remind me of the date that I made the find. I am at a loss regarding your concerns about the "value" of the cache. Please elaborate

 

It just seems weird to me.

 

I just wouldn't spend my caching time finding caches that I might never be able to log, but I don't do those trail things with hundreds of caches so I guess I'll just never get it.

 

I don't do power trails either. Nor do I know what that has to do with the subject.

 

It just seems to be part of the same style of play to me. I'm more selective about caches I find, so I wouldn't go out to a cache that I knew I couldn't log. There are so many other caches that I can find, it just doesn't make sense to chase ones that I can't.

 

So the accomplishment of finding a cache has no value if you can't log it?

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It just seems to be part of the same style of play to me. I'm more selective about caches I find, so I wouldn't go out to a cache that I knew I couldn't log. There are so many other caches that I can find, it just doesn't make sense to chase ones that I can't.

I don't see them as the same at all. A power trail has no relationship with a challenge cache, unless they're one and the same, like a previously mentioned one in Canada. You won't do either, but that doesn't mean they're the same, just in the same category of "ignore" for you.

 

As far as the cache itself not having any meaning outside of the challenge, I believe the final of the challenge is somewhat anti-climactic when compared to the actual challenge that I just completed. However, it allows me to reminisce about what I had to do in order to be able to sign the log to complete the challenge. In some cases, like the name challenge (find a cache that starts with each letter of your caching name), they're somewhat limited in memories but in other cases, like the Jasmer challenge, the memories I have of some of the early caches I needed to complete the challenge will be with me forever. Without that challenge, I probably wouldn't have gone after some of those caches on my own and would therefore not have some of these cherished memories I have. That's the "hidden" value of the actual challenge cache.

 

Like I said, I personally wouldn't pre-sign the log of a challenge, but I have no problems with anyone that does. To each their own.

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So the accomplishment of finding a cache has no value if you can't log it?

 

If I'm going to find say, five caches in a day, I'm going to pick ones that are appealing and available to me. I'm not going to pursue caches with a string of DNFs by trusted cachers, or caches that were recently archived, or caches that I can't reach because I don't have a jet ski, or caches that are explicitly not available to me because I don't qualify for a challenge.

 

Also, I know a few challenge cache owners who have mentioned that this practice irks them, so while it may be technically permitted by the rules, I see no reason to be intentionally bothersome to a cache owner. If a challenge cache is worth doing at all, it's worth doing right.

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So the accomplishment of finding a cache has no value if you can't log it?

 

If I'm going to find say, five caches in a day, I'm going to pick ones that are appealing and available to me. I'm not going to pursue caches with a string of DNFs by trusted cachers, or caches that were recently archived, or caches that I can't reach because I don't have a jet ski, or caches that are explicitly not available to me because I don't qualify for a challenge.

 

Also, I know a few challenge cache owners who have mentioned that this practice irks them, so while it may be technically permitted by the rules, I see no reason to be intentionally bothersome to a cache owner. If a challenge cache is worth doing at all, it's worth doing right.

 

I would hope that when the cache owner created the challenge that they would have read the guidelines about challenge caches which specifically allowed for the finding of the cache prior to completing the challenge. If that was bothersome to the cache owner, perhaps they shouldn't be creating challenge caches.

 

I wonder if which side of the debate one falls on regarding find first/complete the challenge first depends somewhat on the relative availability of challenge caches. Like many other aspects of the game, the popularity of challenge caches is highly regional. There are some areas (like Ontario, Canada) where they are extremely common to the point that people have created power trails of challenge caches, while in other areas they just haven't caught on (I live in one of those areas). When challenge caches are readily available without traveling far from home the decision to find first/complete first isn't affected by the distance to the cache. If you've got a bunch of challenge caches within a half hour drive home it's less of an issue to wait until you've completed the challenge before running out after work to grab the cache. However, if the finals for challenge caches are 200 miles away then the logistics become more of an issue.

 

The issue may also be influence by the type of cacher one chooses to be. Challenges tend to favor the uber cacher that racks up 1000+ finds (or many more) a year, but for the casual cacher that may one find 100 caches or less a year, and isn't going out every single day, the choice between find first/complete the challenge first might not be so clear cut as you're suggesting. I'm a geocaching opportunist. If I happened to be some place where there are a few caches, especially if it's in a state or country I've not previously visited, I will usually make some time to find a few caches. However, I'm not going to drive 200+ miles (one way) just to find some caches. There are probably a few challenge caches for which I've already qualified on that challenge cache PT in Ontario but I'm not going drive there just to find the finals. If I happen to be in the area, and a trail looks like it would be worth visiting I might grab a few of the caches. If it turns out that I already qualify I can post a found it log when I get home. If it turns out that I have a little work to do to meet the criteria I'm not going to make a second trip to sign the log after completing the challenge. if it turns out that I'll never complete the challenge I don't have a problem with finding the container and not getting "credit" for the find.

e

 

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Or at least, to make the ALR optional, just like all the other ALR caches.
Then it's not a challenge anymore, is it?
Sure, it's a challenge, in the sense that the CO challenges you to find a mystery/puzzle cache every day for 30 days (or whatever).

 

But the smiley for finding the physical cache would no longer held hostage to the challenge.

 

Just like other ALR caches. Making ALRs optional eliminated most of the controversy over ALR caches. Of course, now the controversy has migrated towards challenge caches, and hence, the moratorium.

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Or at least, to make the ALR optional, just like all the other ALR caches.
Then it's not a challenge anymore, is it?
Sure, it's a challenge, in the sense that the CO challenges you to find a mystery/puzzle cache every day for 30 days (or whatever).

 

But the smiley for finding the physical cache would no longer held hostage to the challenge.

 

Just like other ALR caches. Making ALRs optional eliminated most of the controversy over ALR caches. Of course, now the controversy has migrated towards challenge caches, and hence, the moratorium.

 

The more I think about it, the more I think it would be nice to just have a standard sort of badge system for these geocaching challenges, instead of caches for them.

 

But then people would bicker about why there isn't a badge for this and that, etc. just like they do with souvenirs. LE SIGH.

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However, if the finals for challenge caches are 200 miles away then the logistics become more of an issue.

But that's no different than a puzzle cache. If you haven't solved a puzzle cache that's 200 miles from home, then you just don't go look for it when you're in the area. If you haven't satisfied a challenge cache's requirements that's 200 miles from home, then you don't have to go look for it, either. With the puzzle cache, you don't complain because you couldn't sign the log even though you were in the area, right? Why would you worry about that just because it's a challenge cache?

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However, if the finals for challenge caches are 200 miles away then the logistics become more of an issue.

But that's no different than a puzzle cache. If you haven't solved a puzzle cache that's 200 miles from home, then you just don't go look for it when you're in the area. If you haven't satisfied a challenge cache's requirements that's 200 miles from home, then you don't have to go look for it, either. With the puzzle cache, you don't complain because you couldn't sign the log even though you were in the area, right? Why would you worry about that just because it's a challenge cache?

 

I suggest that mysteries have their final coordinates published too so we can log the physical cache and put a note on the website. If and when we then solve the puzzle we change the note to a found. :ph34r:

 

BTW, if you can only log a challenge cache when you qualify then you shouldn't log the physical cache before you meet the requirements because signing the log is in fact logging (even if you don't log online you claim a find).

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