WV State Parks to implement cache requirements

October 27, 2003

Hey everybody,

Geowhiz and I met with Kim McHenry, who is over the WV State Parks, on the 23rd. She said that they really appreciate the caches, as it gets more of us out there. She called it a win-win situation for both the parks and the cachers. However, they wanted to set up some guidelines which involve common courtesy things that geocaching.com already requires, and in addition wanted to know where the caches are, ensure that they are maintained, etc.

She said that they have gone to other state web pages and tried to take things from each in order for us to use.

Now note that this is all PRELIMINARY. They are giving us the opportunity to work with them to help set up this system.

I told her that Geowhiz and I don't officially represent anybody, that we cachers are anarchists at heart, and that I would post here when things happen and that perhaps we could have a cachers get together to talk about these issues.

She said (in addition to things that geocaching.com already requires) they were THINKING about requiring a permit for any caches on WV State Park property (new and existing). Note that this would be an one page form that includes name, address, coordinates, etc. that you can fill out ONLINE on the WV State parks website. She didn't mention any fee involved. They would then mail you an offical WV state parks sticker to put on your cache container. The other thing is that they were thinking about having you renew these every year. This would ensure that you do maintenance on your cache. So maybe a different colored sticker each year.

Anyway, as I said this is all PRELIMINARY. Geowhiz and I talked to her cuz they know each other. She and I will keep everybody informed during the whole process, and if you want to email me, I can give you Kim's email address so that you can talk to her directly with any issues/concerns/comments you may have.

Kim plans on putting a DRAFT form on their website sometime around December for comments. THIS FORM IS NOT SET IN STONE.

Remember, they are NOT trying to stop the fun for everyone. They want us there as much every bit as much as we want to put our caches there. All they are asking is a little common courtesy and awareness about our caches on their property. I think you guys would agree with me that we would all feel better knowing that the caches that are put out there are approved so that they don't reflect poorly on us as a group.

Oh yeah, as a bonus, they are THINKING about updating their park brochures & sites to identify caches within. Wouldn't that be cool?

That was the meat of our conversation. Let me know if you have any questions...

Mike

October 27, 2003

For the most part this sounds good. I'm glad we haven't had to deal with all the trouble some other areas have had dealing with their park systems. After seeing how some other states handle caches in the parks (mostly OH, PA, and WI,) this looks like they've paid a lot of attention to the others and will have a good system set up for cache placement in their parks.

If nothing is changed, will there be a charge for the permits? They sound a lot like vehicle inspection stickers (or license plate stickers) or like stickers other states have for using their state parks (so nice not having to pay to visit our parks here!)

I'd also love to see caches added to the park brochures. I know some have complained in the past (probably from other states) about letting too many people know about the caches leading to caches disappearing (and we've had a few around here disappear recently.) Maybe if they do list caches available in parks they might give the hider a chance to have theirs not listed, or just mention caching as one of the things you can do in the park and list www.geocaching.com as a place to find more information. (I'd want to take my chances and have mine listed given a choice.)

Thanks for the info Mike!

Tony

October 27, 2003

I have done a couple caches in WV. Big Schloss is a SUPER SUPER cache. Great views. I did it alone in the snow and it was surreal. Actually plan to do it again, in conjunction with camping, in a couple years when I post back to the states.

Big thanks to Mikedx for working with the park officals on this. And to Kim for having an opening mind for our activity.

October 28, 2003

Mike,

My initial reaction is this sounds like a very positive way to get all the interested parties a way to cooperate. I personally would have no issues in completing an online form so that the park officials were aware that the cache is located in one of thier parks. Not too sure about the sticker - maybe it is just a knee-jerk reaction however this just seems like a level of bureaucracy to slow the cache hiding process and I am fearful that we will also start being "taxed" to get the sticker. Agian, this is just a knee-jerk and I am interested in other cachers thoughts on this part of the proposal.

One quick question, what will the WV State Parks commission do with unregistered caches?

Thanks for your efforts --

-- Puter --

October 29, 2003

Tony,

Unsure about listing by individual caches on brochures. My guess it would just say there are x caches at this state park. You know how volatile caches are, would have to keep revising the brochures.

Puter,

Perhaps it is bueauracratic and take some extra amount of time to get the stickers in the mail, but I really couldn't think of a better way for the parks to ensure the caches are placed and maintained properly. If you can think of a better way, I'd be happy to pass it on.

As for unregistered caches, nothing was said. IMHO, the parks would notify the owners through email via the cache page that their cache is unregistered, and give them an appropriate amount of time to take care of it. Afterwards they could confiscate it and keep it at the park for their retrieval.

If no one claims it within so many months, then the state parks people have to start a new cache with the container & contents of the old one. Could call it the "Confiscated Kanawha State Forest Cache".

Just kidding about that last part. Actually, I heard that a number of people that work at each of the parks have expressed interest in hiding their own caches.

As for a fee, again, she at no time mentioned one. I share with you the feeling that nothing is ever free. But if they take the viewpoint that we get people (and therefore $) into their parks, then maybe we are paying our way that way. Or else we could bargain with another parks cleanup.

Thanks for the comments and keep them coming.

October 29, 2003

I have a lot to say here but no time right now. I'll be baaaack!

.

The harder you work,the harder it is to give up.

Vince Lombarde

November 22, 2003

Mike: I agree--it's much more likely that they'll just mention there are caches, or x caches in the park(s).

We talked with Keystone Approver while in PA recently, and I think he said the parks supply official geocaching stickers (the green ones from this site) for all of the caches in their parks. I don't expect WV to pay for the stickers, and I'm sure we'd get a lot of complaints if we had to pay a lot for stickers (which I doubt would be the case.) I do think it would be a good way to identify what the caches are by attaching some sort of official sticker. I recently bought a number of the cache stickers and plan to eventually use them on a number of our caches.

So, have you heard anything new? Is there anything you'd like us to do?

Eli: Sure you'll be back...

Edited November 22, 2003 by Man In The Wild

3.8k · November 23, 2003

Check out our Maryland Geocaching Society website at http://www.mdgps.net Along the side you will see guidelines for hides in various counties of Maryland. Feel free to use these as a guide for West Virginia.

Good luck.

4.1k · November 26, 2003

<BR>One quick question, what will the WV State Parks commission do with unregistered caches?<BR>

FWIW:

From what I can tell in Pennsylvania, they leave it up to the local park manager.

4.1k · November 26, 2003

We talked with Keystone Approver while in PA recently, and I think he said the parks supply official geocaching stickers (the green ones from this site) for all of the caches in their parks.

Yes, this is true, and I think it's damned nice of 'em, too!!

November 29, 2003

Thats cool the parks in WV are ACTULLY working with somebody on this, rather than trying to charge them to cache on state property. I ran into a Hurricane, WV police officer searching for the same cache as me at the Hurricane city park this morning. He said he is trying to get a couple of the larger city parks to geocache to attract more people and include cords into flyers etc etc - Lee

December 5, 2003

Tony,

Haven't heard anything since the inital meeting. Bueacracy takes time (I should know).

Boogie, that cache at Hurricane city park is MINE! Hope you enjoyed it.

WVState Parks did look at and copied down info from other state pages, but thanks for suggesting it.

January 23, 2004

Well, the web page is up...

The geocaching links are up on the state web page. I haven't heard about the implementation of the state parks permit sticker system, but you can read about their requirements on their web site:

http://www.wvstateparks.com/recreation/geocache.htm

FYI: People who own caches in these parks, keep an ear out for when they implement the system. They can get your email off the cache pages though.

I think the page looks GREAT! Will require maintenance on their part to keep up with the new/archived state parks caches. A big boost for our sport, if you ask me.

January 23, 2004

I've been working with the State Parks people for a few weeks and have given them some guidance about the geocaching.com web page. I also provided them with an initial list of the current caches in their State Parks and Forests. If you know of any caches not listed please let them know. I think their web page looks fantastic!!

My opinion is that the owners of these caches should download the permit form and get them to State Parks now.

January 23, 2004

It may be very helpful for those who have had good experiences with park managers to write these up as "case studies" that could be used by other geocachers who are trying to influence land owners/managers in their area.

This kind of thing could be a very positive influence on them, especially if you included the contact number of the positive manager (after checking this was okay) so that they could talk. Imagine being able to go to a new contact and hand over 2 or 3 case studies from surrounding areas, so that you can discuss the framework that could work well.

January 23, 2004

Geowhiz,

I read the requirements for placing a cache and do not see any real issues with following thier guidelines for placing a cache. One concerned is how quickly kmchenry@dnr.state.wv.us will approve a cache and provide the "official" sticker? Sounds like we will need two approvals before placing a cache.

Do you know what the reasoning for:

Permit is good from date issued until July 1 of the next year. After that date, the cache must be moved or removed and the new location re-permitted

Will WV State Parks require a cache to archived after one year (July)? I would understand WV State Parks require the cache to be re-newed (like a car's inspection sticker) but having to move the cache seems extreme?

Thanks again for "volunteering" to be our voice with WV State Parks!!!

January 25, 2004

Just saw this updates to this thread. The states page looks great. I downloaded their application. I guess I should apply for permits for the one's I've already hidden. I didn't see anything about a grandfather clause. Thanks to everyone for their hard work on this matter.

January 26, 2004

Hey all,

I've given the WV Parks people the information about this forum thread. If you have any questions please post them here. I enjoyed helping them out to get this going. There isn't a requirement to move the cache upon renewal of the permit. Happy Caching!!

Edited January 26, 2004 by GeoWhiz

January 29, 2004

Geocaching section on WV State Park website

This is the first time I have seen this and I thought I would share it.

21.9k · January 29, 2004

Brushpopper posted the prior message as a new topic. I merged it into this existing discussion.

May I note that West Virginia's approach to geocaching is one of the friendliest I've ever seen. Their permit application is straightforward and free of legalese like you see in other states. Featuring each geocache on their State Parks website is incredible!

Congratulations to the West Virginia geocachers who helped in obtaining a workable policy.

Please note that, when you submit a cache that's located in a WV State Park, the volunteer cache reviewers will ask about your permit before approving your cache. You can save time by mentioning your permit directly on your cache page so that everyone knows it was placed with permission.

January 30, 2004

Is anyone else having problems with the wv state parks website? I haven't been able to get on it or the dnr page in the last couple days.

January 30, 2004

I have already turned my forms into the parks folks and spoke with Kim by phone...She informed me that the turn around on getting the stickers for the caches should be less than a week.... thanks to those who worked with her on this policy...i think it is Fair for all involved...She also told me that the caches WOULD NOT have to be MOVED each year..... The folks at the parks office are just wanting to make sure that the caches are being maintained.....

3.9k · January 30, 2004

I must admit, that does make me think a bit about permission. I think it helps that there was a previous relationship wit the parks dept. Well done.

3.8k · January 30, 2004

Relationships with state and local parks has been a big deal for us here in Maryland. Congrats on getting the work done with the West Virginia state parks, that's a huge step! Definitely want them on your side.

Nice job! It's a lot of work to get where you are but definitely worth it and it helps everybody.

Two thumbs up!

February 9, 2004

I have an issue with the "monitoring and maintenance" requirement that many areas want to impose, especially that annual sticker idea. They're monitored by the finders! A popular cache will be one of the most monitored items in the park! The key is to have someone who will take action when the reports come back with bad news (which is part of placing a cache anyway). To that end I can agree with the _FREE_ registration of a cache owner for accountability and I understand their desire to insure that the placement will not have a detrimental impact on the environment. (i.e. preventing the "Nesting Ground of the Endangered Whatchahoozit Cache") Anything beyond that is an unnecessary and unwelcome burden.

February 12, 2004

Thanks for all the work in coordinating the permit system. I had been following the posts but just recently learned the system was in place.

Does anyone know if there is a FAX number that the applications could be sent to? The application only mentions a mail address.

Thanks again

9.1k · February 12, 2004

I have an issue with the "monitoring and maintenance" requirement that many areas want to impose, especially that annual sticker idea. They're monitored by the finders! A popular cache will be one of the most monitored items in the park! The key is to have someone who will take action when the reports come back with bad news (which is part of placing a cache anyway). To that end I can agree with the _FREE_ registration of a cache owner for accountability and I understand their desire to insure that the placement will not have a detrimental impact on the environment. (i.e. preventing the "Nesting Ground of the Endangered Whatchahoozit Cache") Anything beyond that is an unnecessary and unwelcome burden.

Monitoring and maintenance are already part of the cache listing requirements that you read and agree to each and every time you hide a cache. So what's the beef with memorializing that in your cache permit, since you have already agreed to maintain your cache? The only added burden is a renewable annual piece of paper.

I know of a county that has proposed regulations for its county parks system. They want biweekly physical maintenance checks and a full report of each item taken from and left in the cache, and the names and home locations of each person who visits the cache.

Consider yourself extremely lucky to live in West Virginia, where the views are spectacular and the government is friendly.

February 17, 2004

Seems like a decent set of rules, except for the one-year requirement. The "moved or removed" provision seems a bit silly.

February 20, 2004

Just wanted to clear something up. The ONLY objective of the rule "one year moved or removed" policy is all about maintenance. The state parks don't want you to bring out a cache, leave it there, and abandon it. Just leaves what would become trash on their site. woo2, I agree that it is helpful for cachers to let you know if something is amiss with your cache, but it is the hider ultimately responsible to maintain their own caches. I never did figure out how people could have 100's of hides and have time to maintain them all, but that's another story for another thread.

The bottom line is that the parks are saying that if you want to leave caches on their sites, you should be courteous and do maintenance on them once a year. They originally had it once per month, but Geowhiz and I talked them into once a year. I don't think it's too much to ask.

Edited February 20, 2004 by mikedx

February 21, 2004

Does anyone know how long it will take to get the stickers from the state?????

I have 2 caches in Pipestem and sent the paper work in the day that the site was put up with the instructions and I have not heard anything from them yet......

February 24, 2004

I forwarded your question to the State Parks rep and her answer was that the Superintendents themselves will be approving the caches...Everything received so far has been approved and a letter is being drafted to be sent out with the permits. So, you should receive something soon. The response from the Superintendents of the WV State Parks has been very positive.

March 10, 2004

Anyone get their permits yet?

March 10, 2004

Just to let everyone know I got my stickers Monday. Also there was a letter with them stating that they would send out new stickers on the anniversary next year but there was a line in the letter stating that the cache would have to be moved..I hope we can get this cleared up with the folks in the office...When I talked to the lady (I think her name was Kim) she said that they wouldn't have to be moved just maintained!!!!!!!!

March 11, 2004

In all of our discussions and emails with State Parks, having to move the cache upon renewal was never mentioned. I'll clarify that issue with them today.

March 14, 2004

Just wanted to add a note of appreciation for all of those who worked with the state parks to establish a reasonable (and I stress REASONABLE) policy that allows us to continue using the state parks. We are very fortunate to have park administrators who not only permit this use, but embrace it. I would imagine that one major factor was that it was brought to their attention in a positive way that emphasized the benefits for everyone, rather than "discovering" the "covert" activity. So kudos to Mikedx, Geowhiz, Kim and anyone else who was involved.

Edited March 14, 2004 by wvulaw2005

March 16, 2004

I received Kim's email which stated:

"We are asking them to re-permit and would like to look at the site to see the impact it is having on the environment...maybe we should explain a little better!"

Maybe she will redesign the letter sent out with the permit stickers. I know Kim and many of the State Park/Forest Superintendents and they are good people. I'm glad this could come together to benefit all involved. Thank you to everyone in this forum for your kind words. It's been a long process to get WV Parks involved with Geocaching, but it appears we finally made it.

Twin Falls State Park is having a "Go Hike" Weekend, March 26-28. One of the events on the agenda is "Geocaching". I've been asked, and have accepted, to instruct and lead the group to find the cache located there at the park.

March 16, 2004

I am very glad to hear of all your great success with the West Virginia State Parks, congratulations!

I am working in the New York Geocaching Organization here in NY to start making contact with some land managers. I'm very interested to find out what were the top things that you found won over the case for geocaching in WV as well as the pitfalls that caused you a lot of grief. We'd love to learn from your success!

Ferreter5

NYGO Land Management Issues

WV State Parks to implement cache requirements

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