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what makes a cache commercial?


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I've just tried to submit a new cache on top of a local peak here in the Swiss Alps. It's been rejected because I'm apparently breaking the rules about commercial listings. I've read the rules and was pretty sure I understood them.

 

I'm totally unable to see how this is commercial:

 

Mont D'or at 2175m dominates the skyline of Leysin. It's a great hike from the Restaurant de la Pierre du Moëllé, short but steep over rocky ground. From the top there's amazing views over the alpes, over Lac Leman to the Jura Mountains and, of course, Leysin

 

There's a cache attribute for "food nearby" (which I forgot to check) so I'm at a loss why I'm not supposed to mention it. For local context, the place is called Pierre du Moëllé so the restuarant name literally means restaurant of the Pierre du Moëllé.

 

But the reply I got was :

 

Unfortunately, I cannot publish caches that appear to solicit business or that have a commercial nature, even if slight or unintentional. Please remove the following commercial content from your cache description:

Restaurant de la Pierre du Moëllé

 

The guidelines actually don't say there can be no "slight or unintentional" mention of a business because (presumably) that would be totally unreasonable and quite unworkable.

 

In another cache (I placed) a few km away I said :

 

Lac de Mayen is a stunning alpine lake high above Leysin but reached by a number of trails. It's a great place to stop for a drink at the small refuge. The cache is hidden in some rocks a little above the lake with fantastic views of Tour Mayen and Tour d'Aï.

 

The cache is in limestone rocks near the Lac Mayen. There are several routes to Lac Mayen, the two main routes start in Leysin village. One, take the telecabine to the Berneuse and take a short walk past Lac d'Aï tp arrive at Lac Mayen. Two, take the trail past Les Plans pasing the ski lifts at Combe de Bar before ascending to Lac Mayen. For an exciting day out try one of the summits above Lac Mayen!

 

I know the rules carefully disclaim responsibility for past precedent but was this wrong for mentioning the refuge and the ski lift which are both commercial operations?

 

The caches I've placed have been in remote places and I've enjoyed the feedback from people who've visited places they wouldn't otherwise have gone to. I really don't want to alter the listing, I don't think it's unreasonable to mention refuges, buvettes etc on mountain caches and I don't think anyone reading the listing would think so either. This leaves a very sour taste.

Edited by SwissMountainLeader
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It's not a name, it's the description, it's the restaurant de la Pierre du Moëllé. Is there really a problem that I used a capital letter? I just cut and paste the name of the parking waypoint which is "Restaurant de la Pierre du Moëllé". I really can't help that the name of the place can be a business name, I don't imagine it was something the managers of the restaurant thought of!

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It's not a name, it's the description, it's the restaurant de la Pierre du Moëllé. Is there really a problem that I used a capital letter? I just cut and paste the name of the parking waypoint which is "Restaurant de la Pierre du Moëllé". I really can't help that the name of the place can be a business name, I don't imagine it was something the managers of the restaurant thought of!

 

In any case - you can achieve your objective without mentioning the restaurant at all.

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It's not a name, it's the description, it's the restaurant de la Pierre du Moëllé. Is there really a problem that I used a capital letter? I just cut and paste the name of the parking waypoint which is "Restaurant de la Pierre du Moëllé". I really can't help that the name of the place can be a business name, I don't imagine it was something the managers of the restaurant thought of!

 

In any case - you can achieve your objective without mentioning the restaurant at all.

 

Thanks for your feedback.

 

I think you misunderstand my post. My objective was to raise an issue with a demand that I find unreasonable and unjustified. I have no intention of complying with such a demand. I wanted, for my own curiosity, to see if my concern was shared and that was the purpose I had in posting.

 

Geocaching is just a bit fun for me, I've placed a couple of caches and been delighted that people have enjoyed them and visited places they wouldn't have gone otherwise. I've used geocaches as tools when teaching navigation and working with groups which has been extremely useful. If it's really about the pedantic restrictive interpretation of rules, scores and counts then I'm not really bothered and clearly whether I add a cache or not is no loss to anyone anyway so I'll remove it.

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I think you misunderstand my post. My objective was to raise an issue with a demand that I find unreasonable and unjustified

 

It really doesn't matter what you think. The reviewer has the impression that this is not acceptable and is asking you for a very small change in the listing.

 

Now you have two options:

1. Change your listing, and as mentioned above, this is an easy task and does not require an lot of editing

2. Keep complaining and arguing, but this will not change anything, your cache will not be published.

 

Very easy, isn't it?

 

Mausebiber

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It's not a name, it's the description, it's the restaurant de la Pierre du Moëllé. Is there really a problem that I used a capital letter? I just cut and paste the name of the parking waypoint which is "Restaurant de la Pierre du Moëllé". I really can't help that the name of the place can be a business name, I don't imagine it was something the managers of the restaurant thought of!

 

In any case - you can achieve your objective without mentioning the restaurant at all.

 

Thanks for your feedback.

 

I think you misunderstand my post. My objective was to raise an issue with a demand that I find unreasonable and unjustified. I have no intention of complying with such a demand. I wanted, for my own curiosity, to see if my concern was shared and that was the purpose I had in posting.

 

Geocaching is just a bit fun for me, I've placed a couple of caches and been delighted that people have enjoyed them and visited places they wouldn't have gone otherwise. I've used geocaches as tools when teaching navigation and working with groups which has been extremely useful. If it's really about the pedantic restrictive interpretation of rules, scores and counts then I'm not really bothered and clearly whether I add a cache or not is no loss to anyone anyway so I'll remove it.

 

I don't think I misunderstood your post at all.

 

I understand that you wanted to raise an issue, although I suspect your motivation in bringing this fairly trivial issue to the forums was driven by something other than idle curiosity.

 

I don't share your concern. In fact I don't see any issue at all with what the reviewer has asked you to do - and I've offered a suggestion as to how you can convey the same useful information AND satisfy the reviewer that there's nothing commercial about your listing.

 

Being completely honest and given that geocaching is just a bit of fun for you I don't see why you're pushing what, for me at least, is a non-issue.

 

So now you're not bothered? Oh well - neither am I :rolleyes:

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It's not a name, it's the description, it's the restaurant de la Pierre du Moëllé. Is there really a problem that I used a capital letter? I just cut and paste the name of the parking waypoint which is "Restaurant de la Pierre du Moëllé". I really can't help that the name of the place can be a business name, I don't imagine it was something the managers of the restaurant thought of!

 

In any case - you can achieve your objective without mentioning the restaurant at all.

 

Thanks for your feedback.

 

I think you misunderstand my post. My objective was to raise an issue with a demand that I find unreasonable and unjustified. I have no intention of complying with such a demand. I wanted, for my own curiosity, to see if my concern was shared and that was the purpose I had in posting.

 

Geocaching is just a bit fun for me, I've placed a couple of caches and been delighted that people have enjoyed them and visited places they wouldn't have gone otherwise. I've used geocaches as tools when teaching navigation and working with groups which has been extremely useful. If it's really about the pedantic restrictive interpretation of rules, scores and counts then I'm not really bothered and clearly whether I add a cache or not is no loss to anyone anyway so I'll remove it.

 

I don't think I misunderstood your post at all.

 

I understand that you wanted to raise an issue, although I suspect your motivation in bringing this fairly trivial issue to the forums was driven by something other than idle curiosity.

 

I don't share your concern. In fact I don't see any issue at all with what the reviewer has asked you to do - and I've offered a suggestion as to how you can convey the same useful information AND satisfy the reviewer that there's nothing commercial about your listing.

 

Being completely honest and given that geocaching is just a bit of fun for you I don't see why you're pushing what, for me at least, is a non-issue.

 

So now you're not bothered? Oh well - neither am I :rolleyes:

 

I have visited caches placed with permission on or near businesses. There was no issue with mention of the business in the cache listing. In one case the restaurant's name is part of the cache's name.

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It's not a name, it's the description, it's the restaurant de la Pierre du Moëllé. Is there really a problem that I used a capital letter? I just cut and paste the name of the parking waypoint which is "Restaurant de la Pierre du Moëllé". I really can't help that the name of the place can be a business name, I don't imagine it was something the managers of the restaurant thought of!

 

In any case - you can achieve your objective without mentioning the restaurant at all.

 

Thanks for your feedback.

 

I think you misunderstand my post. My objective was to raise an issue with a demand that I find unreasonable and unjustified. I have no intention of complying with such a demand. I wanted, for my own curiosity, to see if my concern was shared and that was the purpose I had in posting.

 

Geocaching is just a bit fun for me, I've placed a couple of caches and been delighted that people have enjoyed them and visited places they wouldn't have gone otherwise. I've used geocaches as tools when teaching navigation and working with groups which has been extremely useful. If it's really about the pedantic restrictive interpretation of rules, scores and counts then I'm not really bothered and clearly whether I add a cache or not is no loss to anyone anyway so I'll remove it.

 

I don't think I misunderstood your post at all.

 

I understand that you wanted to raise an issue, although I suspect your motivation in bringing this fairly trivial issue to the forums was driven by something other than idle curiosity.

 

I don't share your concern. In fact I don't see any issue at all with what the reviewer has asked you to do - and I've offered a suggestion as to how you can convey the same useful information AND satisfy the reviewer that there's nothing commercial about your listing.

 

Being completely honest and given that geocaching is just a bit of fun for you I don't see why you're pushing what, for me at least, is a non-issue.

 

So now you're not bothered? Oh well - neither am I :rolleyes:

 

I have visited caches placed with permission on or near businesses. There was no issue with mention of the business in the cache listing. In one case the restaurant's name is part of the cache's name.

 

That doesn't matter here. The reviewer has asked for the commercial aspect of this listing to be removed.

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I have visited caches placed with permission on or near businesses. There was no issue with mention of the business in the cache listing. In one case the restaurant's name is part of the cache's name.

 

Meh...could have been overlooked, or could be considered "pop culture". Who knows. Guidance in the Help Center can't be made any clearer I'm afraid:

 

It contains the name of a business or commercial product.

 

Link for reference:

 

Does my geocache meet commercial Guidelines

 

Now we can all sit here and argue over consistent Reviewing vs flexible Reviewing, or we can tell the poor OP how to go about getting their Listing Published in the fastest possible fashion.

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...or we can tell the poor OP how to go about getting their Listing Published in the fastest possible fashion.

 

I did try that - but the poor OP doesn't seem to have that as his primary objective.

My comment was not intended to be aimed at you TM. I thought your replies were concise and too the point B)

Edited by Touchstone
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...or we can tell the poor OP how to go about getting their Listing Published in the fastest possible fashion.

 

I did try that - but the poor OP doesn't seem to have that as his primary objective.

My comment was intended to be aimed at you TM. I thought your replies were concise and too the point B)

 

Concise and to the point is my middle name - which makes form-filling a real chore :laughing:

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The description seems to mention the restaurant specifically to solicit business which is precisely what that guideline is designed to avoid.

 

But he's talking about walking away from the restaurant.

 

"It's a great hike from the Restaurant de la Pierre du Moëllé"

 

:rolleyes:

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Is the restaurant name also forbidden in event caches?

 

"Event Caches, like other geocaches, will only be published if they meet the commercial cache guideline. Geocache owners can include basic information about the location on the geocache page, even if it is a commercial location. Event listings may request donations or charge a fee to cover legitimate costs of the event. A list of sponsors, without logos or URLs, may be on an event listing. Event listings may only mention sales of event-related Geocaching.com trackables. Listings may include a link to a non-commercial event landing page. Attendees may be required to register at a separate registration page."

 

The guidelines are visible to everyone here.

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This seems like a pretty cut and dry case.

 

Caches that mention business names may not have been recognized as such by the Reviewer, changed after publication, or predate current Guidelines. I think there are caches published a few years ago that wouldn't get published today without changes to the description, due to Groundspeak becoming more strict about commercial guidelines.

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