Geocaching/Groundspeak overhaul required

[+on4bam]

New users should be required to find at least 100 caches to get an idea of what works before being allowed to even create a cache.

 

If you live in or can easily travel to a relatively cache dense area it's fairly easy for someone to get 100 finds, but, if most of them are on a power trail they're not going to have a breadth of experience for different cache types.

 

 

I managed to find more than 10% of the caches in Greenland last year where there are now 108 caches (8 of them events) Looks like none of the locals would qualify to hide their own caches unless they travel to other countries.

Edited June 9, 2015 by on4bam

[+narcissa]

New users should be required to find at least 100 caches to get an idea of what works before being allowed to even create a cache.

 

If you live in or can easily travel to a relatively cache dense area it's fairly easy for someone to get 100 finds, but, if most of them are on a power trail they're not going to have a breadth of experience for different cache types.

 

 

I manages to find more than 10% of the caches in Greenland last year where there are now 108 caches (8 of them events) Looks like none of the locals would qualify to hide their own caches unless they travel to other countries.

 

It also really penalizes cachers who start the game focused on challenging hides and a variety of cache types, and strongly favours those who focus on those dreaded just-for-numbers caches.

 

Besides that, the worst offenders for mindless cache placement, at least in my area, are people who have had ample time and experience to learn to do it better, but have chosen not to. It's rare to see a new cacher plop out one of those silly straight lines of micros along a road.

[+L0ne.R]

New users should be required to find at least 100 caches to get an idea of what works before being allowed to even create a cache.

 

If you live in or can easily travel to a relatively cache dense area it's fairly easy for someone to get 100 finds, but, if most of them are on a power trail they're not going to have a breadth of experience for different cache types.

 

 

I managed to find more than 10% of the caches in Greenland last year where there are now 108 caches (8 of them events) Looks like none of the locals would qualify to hide their own caches unless they travel to other countries.

 

Exceptions could be made of areas that have very few caches.

[+TerraViators]

Pie-in-the-Sky ideas and thoughts after just a few finds.

 

As a new user, I'm concerned with what I have seen so far. I'm in favor of some changes. New users should be required to find at least 100 caches to get an idea of what works before being allowed to even create a cache.

 

I may be new, but I would rather find quality caches than caches that require hazmat gloves. So far half have contained garbage crammed in with a log. One had a bullet. Two had items I regret having touched with bare hands and am loath to describe. Half the logs I've found so far have been soggy. New cache owners should be required to check their caches on a regular schedule.

 

Education is Key

New cachers should be disallowed from, or perhaps strongly cautioned against, leaving any paper items other than a log. Also disallow bobby pins, paper clips, clothes pins, cheap marbles, money, plastic beads, mardi gras necklaces or craft junk they merely bought from Michael's Craft Store. Home made crafts are fine. Plastic dinosaurs are fine. Matchbox cars are fine. Just not those tiny foam snowflake stickers you just bought by the thousands merely to drop in every bleeping cache. If I owned the cache, I'd trash all that stuff on each maintenance run.

 

There needs to be more critical video lessons describing best practices in contrast with bad practices. Tell newbies what sucks as swag. Stop being wishy washy about it. Yes, it's a game, but a good game should demand a level of excellence from its players. Good games attract players who want to play by the rules. These kinds of changes might persuade people with very short attention spans choose a less-demanding hobby, like watching soaps.

 

Get rid of trackables. Magpies are collecting these like swag. I'm never going to pay five or ten bucks just so someone else can collect and keep my trackable. Not. Happening. Either that or make trackables unattractive to magpies.

You have some good thoughts. However, regarding marbles, I know a cacher that absolutely loves to trade for marbles.

[+TerraViators]

Pie-in-the-Sky ideas and thoughts after just a few finds.

 

As a new user, I'm concerned with what I have seen so far. I'm in favor of some changes. New users should be required to find at least 100 caches to get an idea of what works before being allowed to even create a cache.

 

I may be new, but I would rather find quality caches than caches that require hazmat gloves. So far half have contained garbage crammed in with a log. One had a bullet. Two had items I regret having touched with bare hands and am loath to describe. Half the logs I've found so far have been soggy. New cache owners should be required to check their caches on a regular schedule.

 

Education is Key

New cachers should be disallowed from, or perhaps strongly cautioned against, leaving any paper items other than a log. Also disallow bobby pins, paper clips, clothes pins, cheap marbles, money, plastic beads, mardi gras necklaces or craft junk they merely bought from Michael's Craft Store. Home made crafts are fine. Plastic dinosaurs are fine. Matchbox cars are fine. Just not those tiny foam snowflake stickers you just bought by the thousands merely to drop in every bleeping cache. If I owned the cache, I'd trash all that stuff on each maintenance run.

 

There needs to be more critical video lessons describing best practices in contrast with bad practices. Tell newbies what sucks as swag. Stop being wishy washy about it. Yes, it's a game, but a good game should demand a level of excellence from its players. Good games attract players who want to play by the rules. These kinds of changes might persuade people with very short attention spans choose a less-demanding hobby, like watching soaps.

 

Get rid of trackables. Magpies are collecting these like swag. I'm never going to pay five or ten bucks just so someone else can collect and keep my trackable. Not. Happening. Either that or make trackables unattractive to magpies.

You have some good thoughts. However, regarding marbles, I know a cacher who absolutely loves to trade for marbles.

[+narcissa]

You have some good thoughts. However, regarding marbles, I know a cacher that absolutely loves to trade for marbles.

 

There is very little agreement on swag. There's a gigantic, never-ending thread about swag with absolutely no consensus. Religious tracts? Some people like those. Business cards? Some people like those. McToys are a scourge, or a necessity depending on who you speak to. Some people say you should recycle things to be environmentally conscious, others say it's rude to leave something that isn't brand new. Some people hate swag, some people cache for the swag.

[+LaughterOnWater]

I would love it if the mods would make that post a "sticky"! ...

You are very kind!

 

So an hour or two on the ET Highway grabbing fungible film canisters, and someone is ready to hide a cache? But someone who has found a dozen varied caches in varied locations isn't? And someone with only 50 caches within 50 miles has to do a lot of traveling before they can hide their first cache?

 

Find count is the wrong measure.

This is terrific feedback. Thank you! Okay, so maybe it needs to change depending on the location. Prikstok caches are allowed in Belgium, even if it's technically against the rules. Maybe there need to be rules based on cache density. Where cache density is high, make new gamers collect a respectable number of that kind of cache before they can place their own.

 

Understanding the basic principles of the guidelines might be a good measure. Some have suggested requiring new cache owners to pass a basic test on the guidelines before listing their first cache.

 

Time geocaching might be a good measure, but only to the degree that it weeds out the flash-in-the-pan newbies who find a cache on Saturday, hide a cache on Sunday, and then disappear. So maybe we could have a requirement that new cache owners' accounts be at least a couple weeks old.

 

But find count is the wrong measure.

So maybe the idea of "acquire 100 finds" itself is not so great, but in combination with a rudimentary geocaching "driving test", new CO's could learn acceptable hide methods.

 

... You mean like this?

 

Owner is responsible for visits to the physical location.

Point taken. What would compel cache owners to find joy in maintaining their caches?

 

... You aren't the first to complain about trade items. You won't be the last.

 

And if it is genuine trash, then go ahead and CITO it. And if it's something that doesn't belong in a cache (e.g., something edible, dangerous, or illegal), then go ahead and CITO it.

 

But some people like marbles and hair clips and foreign coins and plastic beads and craft junk and other things that are essentially worthless from a monetary point of view. Some of us even trade for paper items (e.g., a number of the personal signature items in my collection are made of paper/cardboard)... Or just let them figure it out by themselves. I trade for stuff that others consider junk. Others trade for stuff that I consider junk. Many don't trade at all, and couldn't care less.

I find the geocaching stats cards designed to look like baseball cards pretty cool. It doesn't make sense for new gamers to create one for themselves though since they don't have any decent stats yet. Yes, one man's trash, etc... Except when it's a soggy cache. Then it's all just a friable mess. CITO.

 

... Once we all agree on what "excellence" means, we can figure out just who is going to demand it, and what they'll do if their demand isn't met.

I'll quote from the recently deceased author Terry Pratchett's Tiffany Aching Discworld series. "Everything is a test." Each day we are tested by circumstances and how we respond. We must compell ourselves to be the ones who demand our own excellence from ourselves.

 

... Again, this is not a new complaint. And there's an art to picking something to attach a TB tag to. If the object is too attractive, then it tends to disappear. But it needs to be interesting enough to inspire interesting logs. It helps if the owner chooses an interesting TB goal, and attaches a tag that lists that TB goal. But that conversation might be more appropriate for the Trackables Subforums. (Yep, trackables have their own ghetto subforum, which is why there isn't much conversation about them here.)

I'd consider buying just the trackable ID, then permanently printing them on ugly-but-durable tags that could be attached to a swag item. The tag would be larger than the item it's attached to, sort of the way they tape a long plastic plant leaf to pens in the post office so you don't walk off with the pen in your pocket by mistake.

 

... Requiring a minimum number of finds before someone is able to create a cache would essentially make it very difficult to create new caches in areas which could actually use more caches, but would be very easy for someone living in any area already saturated with tons of caches.

Good point. See my specific replies to similar comments from niraD above.

 

You have some good thoughts. However, regarding marbles, I know a cacher that absolutely loves to trade for marbles.

Mind, I did say "cheap" marbles. Good marbles are awesome.

 

There is very little agreement on swag. There's a gigantic, never-ending thread about swag with absolutely no consensus. Religious tracts? Some people like those. Business cards? Some people like those. McToys are a scourge, or a necessity depending on who you speak to. Some people say you should recycle things to be environmentally conscious, others say it's rude to leave something that isn't brand new. Some people hate swag, some people cache for the swag.

I recently acquired a bunch of relatively-collectible European kid's toys. Some are wind-ups. Others have moveable parts. Others are more like McToys. Still, I'm pretty careful where I choose to put them. I seldom take anything from a cache except garbage. If the cache is small or there's any sog-factor, I leave only the log. Once I moved one piece of swag from one cache to another.

 

I actively remove advertisements, business cards, religious pamphlets, and pizza coupons from caches since agenda-based items are against the rules. I also remove used football game tickets and used theater tickets because they're trash. I don't remove religious icons like a stone with an etched cross in it, or a rosary, or Mardi Gras beads. I don't remove paperclips, clothespins, bobby pins or those little hair bands. Though I'm sorely tempted...

 

Chris

Edited June 9, 2015 by LaughterOnWater

[+narcissa]

I actively remove advertisements, business cards, religious pamphlets, and pizza coupons from caches since agenda-based items are against the rules.

 

You're removing those items because they bother you. That's fine and dandy, but don't claim it has anything to do with rules.

[knowschad]

There's a difference between venting a little frustration over something unimportant, and declaring that the entire game needs an overhaul to rid itself of the lying, cheating litterbugs.

And how, exactly, does this affect you?

[knowschad]

New users should be required to find at least 100 caches to get an idea of what works before being allowed to even create a cache.

So an hour or two on the ET Highway grabbing fungible film canisters, and someone is ready to hide a cache? But someone who has found a dozen varied caches in varied locations isn't? And someone with only 50 caches within 50 miles has to do a lot of traveling before they can hide their first cache?

 

Find count is the wrong measure.

Perhaps x number of days finding caches, and perhaps even x number of types of caches would be a better measure.

 

Not that I'm in favor of a ruling of any sort like that... one of my favorite hiders of all times had only a half-dozen or fewer finds before he started hiding some great caches.

[+Wet Pancake Touring Club]

New users should be required to find at least 100 caches to get an idea of what works before being allowed to even create a cache.

So an hour or two on the ET Highway grabbing fungible film canisters, and someone is ready to hide a cache? But someone who has found a dozen varied caches in varied locations isn't? And someone with only 50 caches within 50 miles has to do a lot of traveling before they can hide their first cache?

 

Find count is the wrong measure.

Perhaps x number of days finding caches, and perhaps even x number of types of caches would be a better measure.

 

Not that I'm in favor of a ruling of any sort like that... one of my favorite hiders of all times had only a half-dozen or fewer finds before he started hiding some great caches.

 

I like an earlier suggestion. Before you can get a cache published, you have to take a test. Groundspeak already distinguishes between different kinds of users, so the mechanism to enforce this may already exist in part. Pass a knowledge test, set the attribute on the user ID that allows them to submit caches. The 'grandfather' clause would be to set this for any user that had already placed 5 or more caches.

 

Skye.

[+ArtieD]

Why shouldn't the rules change to manage a better experience?

 

Much like the debate about what the definition of a "quality" cache is, endorsing a rule change to create a "better" experience fails because there is no one definition of a "better" experience. Like it or not, some people like the McToys and stuff like that. Some people only like high-end swag. Some people like skirt lifters and some like mountain climbing caches. With different kinds of players comes different ideas of what a generally good all around caching experience is about. Stifling the freedom to place whatever swag that floats a cacher's boat is imposing a singular ideal on caching, which is wrong. As long as people follow the basic rules/guidelines/whatever of swag, they should be able to use what they want.

 

Again, you are far too new and inexperienced to be promoting a massive rule change based on a few dozen finds. Come back when you have more experience.

[+ArtieD]

I actively remove advertisements, business cards, religious pamphlets, and pizza coupons from caches since agenda-based items are against the rules.

 

Newsflash...those items are NOT against the rules.

 

I also remove used football game tickets and used theater tickets because they're trash.

 

Fair enough on that one.

 

I don't remove religious icons like a stone with an etched cross in it, or a rosary, or Mardi Gras beads. I don't remove paperclips, clothespins, bobby pins or those little hair bands. Though I'm sorely tempted...

 

It is not your place to play swag cop. If you don't like a certain type of swag, fine...don't take it. It does not give you the right to remove it.

[Cascade Reviewer]

 

I actively remove advertisements, business cards, religious pamphlets, and pizza coupons from caches since agenda-based items are against the rules. I also remove used football game tickets and used theater tickets because they're trash. I don't remove religious icons like a stone with an etched cross in it, or a rosary, or Mardi Gras beads. I don't remove paperclips, clothespins, bobby pins or those little hair bands. Though I'm sorely tempted...

 

Chris

Those items are not against the guidelines. There's a difference between what is written in the cache description, what is written in cache logs, and what is actually in the cache.

[+Harry Dolphin]

Looking at people's stats I see 90/95% and even 100% traditionals. Having found some multi's, solve a few mysteries or finding more challenging traditionals would at least widen new cacher's view on what's it all about.

 

Hmm... I'm only 83% traditional. Guess I'd better get to work on that! (Or is that why I have so many mystery caches?)

[knowschad]

Why shouldn't the rules change to manage a better experience?

 

Much like the debate about what the definition of a "quality" cache is, endorsing a rule change to create a "better" experience fails because there is no one definition of a "better" experience. Like it or not, some people like the McToys and stuff like that. Some people only like high-end swag. Some people like skirt lifters and some like mountain climbing caches. With different kinds of players comes different ideas of what a generally good all around caching experience is about. Stifling the freedom to place whatever swag that floats a cacher's boat is imposing a singular ideal on caching, which is wrong. As long as people follow the basic rules/guidelines/whatever of swag, they should be able to use what they want.

 

Again, you are far too new and inexperienced to be promoting a massive rule change based on a few dozen finds. Come back when you have more experience.

 

Here we go again. What people "like" has to do with popularity, not with what is "better" (or "quality", if you will). Many people "like" McDonald's hamburgers, yet we still look toward things like Michelin stars and James Beard awards when we look for "better" dining. B-grade horror movies are "liked" by many, yet we still have the Academy Awards, the Cannes and Sundance and other Film Festivals and the like to reward the "better" films. In fact, I would submit that popularity is often the direct opposite of quality.

[+ArtieD]

Why shouldn't the rules change to manage a better experience?

 

Much like the debate about what the definition of a "quality" cache is, endorsing a rule change to create a "better" experience fails because there is no one definition of a "better" experience. Like it or not, some people like the McToys and stuff like that. Some people only like high-end swag. Some people like skirt lifters and some like mountain climbing caches. With different kinds of players comes different ideas of what a generally good all around caching experience is about. Stifling the freedom to place whatever swag that floats a cacher's boat is imposing a singular ideal on caching, which is wrong. As long as people follow the basic rules/guidelines/whatever of swag, they should be able to use what they want.

 

Again, you are far too new and inexperienced to be promoting a massive rule change based on a few dozen finds. Come back when you have more experience.

 

Here we go again. What people "like" has to do with popularity, not with what is "better" (or "quality", if you will). Many people "like" McDonald's hamburgers, yet we still look toward things like Michelin stars and James Beard awards when we look for "better" dining. B-grade horror movies are "liked" by many, yet we still have the Academy Awards, the Cannes and Sundance and other Film Festivals and the like to reward the "better" films. In fact, I would submit that popularity is often the direct opposite of quality.

 

Your incorrect opinion is noted.

[+on4bam]

Looking at people's stats I see 90/95% and even 100% traditionals. Having found some multi's, solve a few mysteries or finding more challenging traditionals would at least widen new cacher's view on what's it all about.

 

Hmm... I'm only 83% traditional. Guess I'd better get to work on that! (Or is that why I have so many mystery caches?)

 

I'm at 62.8% trad with 18.6% Mysteries and 16% Multi but I mean I see these high %ages trads for new cachers. I read it here too, too much effort for a multi, filter out mysteries...

 

A multi we did had 57 founds in just under 2 years, because of vandalism it was replaced with another mulyi with traditionals along the way, it now has 95 founds in 1 year. Both are the same distance and share the same WPsand yet the newer version is more popular as you get 11 founds instead of just one for the old cache. Fortunately the ingenious WPs of the first multi were incorporated in the second.

[knowschad]

Why shouldn't the rules change to manage a better experience?

 

Much like the debate about what the definition of a "quality" cache is, endorsing a rule change to create a "better" experience fails because there is no one definition of a "better" experience. Like it or not, some people like the McToys and stuff like that. Some people only like high-end swag. Some people like skirt lifters and some like mountain climbing caches. With different kinds of players comes different ideas of what a generally good all around caching experience is about. Stifling the freedom to place whatever swag that floats a cacher's boat is imposing a singular ideal on caching, which is wrong. As long as people follow the basic rules/guidelines/whatever of swag, they should be able to use what they want.

 

Again, you are far too new and inexperienced to be promoting a massive rule change based on a few dozen finds. Come back when you have more experience.

 

Here we go again. What people "like" has to do with popularity, not with what is "better" (or "quality", if you will). Many people "like" McDonald's hamburgers, yet we still look toward things like Michelin stars and James Beard awards when we look for "better" dining. B-grade horror movies are "liked" by many, yet we still have the Academy Awards, the Cannes and Sundance and other Film Festivals and the like to reward the "better" films. In fact, I would submit that popularity is often the direct opposite of quality.

 

Your incorrect opinion is noted.

 

Seriously? You can honestly disagree that there is a difference between popularity and quality? OK. Not worth arguing about it.

[+ArtieD]

Looking at people's stats I see 90/95% and even 100% traditionals. Having found some multi's, solve a few mysteries or finding more challenging traditionals would at least widen new cacher's view on what's it all about.

 

Hmm... I'm only 83% traditional. Guess I'd better get to work on that! (Or is that why I have so many mystery caches?)

 

I'm at 62.8% trad with 18.6% Mysteries and 16% Multi but I mean I see these high %ages trads for new cachers. I read it here too, too much effort for a multi, filter out mysteries...

 

A multi we did had 57 founds in just under 2 years, because of vandalism it was replaced with another mulyi with traditionals along the way, it now has 95 founds in 1 year. Both are the same distance and share the same WPsand yet the newer version is more popular as you get 11 founds instead of just one for the old cache. Fortunately the ingenious WPs of the first multi were incorporated in the second.

 

Man...I am 71.6% Traditional and 11% Mystery. I didn't know my Traditional percentage was that low!

[+ArtieD]

Why shouldn't the rules change to manage a better experience?

 

Much like the debate about what the definition of a "quality" cache is, endorsing a rule change to create a "better" experience fails because there is no one definition of a "better" experience. Like it or not, some people like the McToys and stuff like that. Some people only like high-end swag. Some people like skirt lifters and some like mountain climbing caches. With different kinds of players comes different ideas of what a generally good all around caching experience is about. Stifling the freedom to place whatever swag that floats a cacher's boat is imposing a singular ideal on caching, which is wrong. As long as people follow the basic rules/guidelines/whatever of swag, they should be able to use what they want.

 

Again, you are far too new and inexperienced to be promoting a massive rule change based on a few dozen finds. Come back when you have more experience.

 

Here we go again. What people "like" has to do with popularity, not with what is "better" (or "quality", if you will). Many people "like" McDonald's hamburgers, yet we still look toward things like Michelin stars and James Beard awards when we look for "better" dining. B-grade horror movies are "liked" by many, yet we still have the Academy Awards, the Cannes and Sundance and other Film Festivals and the like to reward the "better" films. In fact, I would submit that popularity is often the direct opposite of quality.

 

Your incorrect opinion is noted.

 

Seriously? You can honestly disagree that there is a difference between popularity and quality? OK. Not worth arguing about it.

 

No, there is a difference. I just choose to not argue with you. It's not worth wasting my time with the intentionally obtuse.

[knowschad]

Why shouldn't the rules change to manage a better experience?

 

Much like the debate about what the definition of a "quality" cache is, endorsing a rule change to create a "better" experience fails because there is no one definition of a "better" experience. Like it or not, some people like the McToys and stuff like that. Some people only like high-end swag. Some people like skirt lifters and some like mountain climbing caches. With different kinds of players comes different ideas of what a generally good all around caching experience is about. Stifling the freedom to place whatever swag that floats a cacher's boat is imposing a singular ideal on caching, which is wrong. As long as people follow the basic rules/guidelines/whatever of swag, they should be able to use what they want.

 

Again, you are far too new and inexperienced to be promoting a massive rule change based on a few dozen finds. Come back when you have more experience.

 

Sometimes fresh eyes can see the clearest.

[+ArtieD]

Why shouldn't the rules change to manage a better experience?

 

Much like the debate about what the definition of a "quality" cache is, endorsing a rule change to create a "better" experience fails because there is no one definition of a "better" experience. Like it or not, some people like the McToys and stuff like that. Some people only like high-end swag. Some people like skirt lifters and some like mountain climbing caches. With different kinds of players comes different ideas of what a generally good all around caching experience is about. Stifling the freedom to place whatever swag that floats a cacher's boat is imposing a singular ideal on caching, which is wrong. As long as people follow the basic rules/guidelines/whatever of swag, they should be able to use what they want.

 

Again, you are far too new and inexperienced to be promoting a massive rule change based on a few dozen finds. Come back when you have more experience.

 

Sometimes fresh eyes can see the clearest.

 

...or not see the forest for the trees.

[+on4bam]

Here we go again. What people "like" has to do with popularity, not with what is "better" (or "quality", if you will). Many people "like" McDonald's hamburgers, yet we still look toward things like Michelin stars and James Beard awards when we look for "better" dining. B-grade horror movies are "liked" by many, yet we still have the Academy Awards, the Cannes and Sundance and other Film Festivals and the like to reward the "better" films. In fact, I would submit that popularity is often the direct opposite of quality.

 

But people are not saying McD is "quality". I prefer a Big Mac over any meal in El Bulli or Noma any day but wouldn't award a favorite to McD. When it comes to caching, I'll do prefer Michelin star caches but will have a McD cache when it's along our route.

[+niraD]

Maybe there need to be rules based on cache density. Where cache density is high, make new gamers collect a respectable number of that kind of cache before they can place their own.

Again, what is "a respectable number"? An hour or two on the ET Highway can net you 50-100 smileys, and will teach you a lot about fungible film canisters in the desert. But IMHO you'll learn a lot more about geocaching by finding a dozen (or even half a dozen) varied caches in varied locations.

 

Find count is the wrong measure.

 

So maybe the idea of "acquire 100 finds" itself is not so great, but in combination with a rudimentary geocaching "driving test", new CO's could learn acceptable hide methods.

I would argue that, if the CO has already passed a basic exam on the guidelines, then also requiring 100 smileys adds nothing to the value of passing the exam. Change the number to 50 smileys, or 25 smileys, or a dozen smileys, and it still adds nothing.

 

Find count is the wrong measure.

 

What would compel cache owners to find joy in maintaining their caches?

What would compel cache owners to find

Joy in maintaining their caches?

What would compel cache seekers to find

Joy in trading up or even?

What would compel geocachers to find

Joy in quality geocaches?

The answer, my friend, is blowing in the wind

The answer is blowing in the wind

 

I'd consider buying just the trackable ID, then permanently printing them on ugly-but-durable tags that could be attached to a swag item. The tag would be larger than the item it's attached to, sort of the way they tape a long plastic plant leaf to pens in the post office so you don't walk off with the pen in your pocket by mistake.

Well, you can buy tracking codes, if that's what you want to do. And people do it. See the Help Center article Tracking Code Policy.

 

But as a practical matter, people tend not to move large awkward trackable items very much. They're hard to carry with you when you're geocaching. They're bigger than a lot of the geocaches people encounter. They're often hard to fit in caches that might be large enough, because there are other things in the cache, and you can't dump it all out just to put a large awkward trackable item in the cache.

[+LaughterOnWater]

Those items are not against the guidelines. There's a difference between what is written in the cache description, what is written in cache logs, and what is actually in the cache.

Cascade Reviewer, Narcissa, Arthur and Trillian, I stand corrected. Apologies.

 

I was reading this guideline:

Solicitation and Commercial Content

• Geocaches do not solicit for any purpose.
   
  Cache listings perceived to be posted for religious, political, charitable or social agendas are not permitted. Geocaching is intended to be an enjoyable, family-friendly hobby, not a platform for an agenda. Cache pages cannot require, and should not strongly encourage, the placement of new caches. This is considered an agenda and the listing will not be publishable.

I unfortunately assumed that gamers should be held the same standard as the CO's. So businesses can pay someone to set up a few non-agenda caches, and then pay someone else to populate the same caches (or more easily, just stuff existing close-by caches) with their "non-guideline-busters". Isn't that just... wrong? Against all temptation, what's to stop well-funded Super PAC groupies from stuffing voter appeals for the next election as "swag"? If hasn't already happened, I'm guessing we'll see it in the next big election season.

 

Agreed, sometimes it's nice not to draw too many lines so we don't stomp the fun out. But seriously--why is this not a guideline for cache finders?

[+niraD]

But seriously--why is this not a guideline for cache finders?

So if I go to a conference,

and I collect a bunch of trinkets from various vendor booths,

and I use those trinkets (which display the various vendor names, of course) as trade items,

then you think there is something wrong with that?

[+NeverSummer]

Here we go again. What people "like" has to do with popularity, not with what is "better" (or "quality", if you will). Many people "like" McDonald's hamburgers, yet we still look toward things like Michelin stars and James Beard awards when we look for "better" dining. B-grade horror movies are "liked" by many, yet we still have the Academy Awards, the Cannes and Sundance and other Film Festivals and the like to reward the "better" films. In fact, I would submit that popularity is often the direct opposite of quality.

 

But people are not saying McD is "quality". I prefer a Big Mac over any meal in El Bulli or Noma any day but wouldn't award a favorite to McD. When it comes to caching, I'll do prefer Michelin star caches but will have a McD cache when it's along our route.

Remove cost and create universal accessibility of that "James Beard" or "Michelin Star", and I'm betting that people would choose the "better" option of the JB/Michelin-starred restaurant. I know I would go to a fancy restaurant if I could afford to every day, and also find one close to my house.

 

Alas, many people do not have access or the funds to place higher-quality caches (containers like ammo cans, e.g.) or start a cache or trade for higher-value swag.

 

So what we have now with geocaching is a watered-down, highly accessible, low cost version of the game. I'm sure the first McDonald's burgers were much better than they are today, but we're also living in an age where people apparently want(ed) to get the same burger at the same restaurant in any town, at any time, at a low price...at the risk of losing nutritious value and fancier accoutrement of a "James Beard-award winning burger". We have a game where people don't have to buy a GPSr anymore. We don't even have to worry about cache containers being "good" because of the accessibility and lack of accountability we now have.

 

With many, many more cachers than even in 2005--let alone 2000--we have a watered-down accountability in our own communities. I remember when I started there were a small number of cachers who were "active" enough in the neighborhood. (This is Portland, OR, mind you--"The birthplace of geocaching"...) That small enclave of early adopters had a much higher standard for containers, logbooks, cache size, cache location, etc. So when a cache of "lower quality" was placed, you heard about it. You saw it. You learned from the others that it was a "poor" cache placement or container. Because of the size of the community, it was easy to "police" the game for quality and even the guidelines.

 

Now we have many more people of varying backgrounds and interest levels, not many of whom were "taught by the old timers" what makes for a quality gameplay experience at geocaching.com. So we get this watered-down version where we end up having to accept a McDonald's burger when many of us miss the days of quality, fresh and local ingredients offered in our neighborhood.

 

So, what's our buy-in these days? What do we have invested in the game? Electrons and a free App, right? Oh, and a pencil or pen, if we're lucky. What was once a Michelin-Star experience is now the "I'm lovin' it" face of our game. The question is, can we get back to a better level of experience? I don't know that we can anymore since we've seen the barriers to this game removed, and accessibility improved for the uninitiated to join the game, find caches and log a simple "TFTC", take swag without trading, mistake a geocoin for a "prize" or "treasure", and hide more nanos under lamp skirts downtown in a parking lot. And all without any community ability to hold new cachers accountable in the ways we used to be.

 

Heck, we're all more scared of the NM and NA logs than we've ever been--and all because we're afraid of being a "cache cop". But that's just the type of accountability we should be bringing back to the game--reporting bad caches; keeping our caches in great shape: maintaining swag, containers, and logbooks; welcoming and mentoring new cachers we meet...etc.

 

Edited June 9, 2015 by NeverSummer

[+LaughterOnWater]

... Find count is the wrong measure...

What and how would you measure?

 

What would compel cache owners to find

Joy in maintaining their caches?

What would compel cache seekers to find

Joy in trading up or even?

What would compel geocachers to find

Joy in quality geocaches?

The answer, my friend, is blowing in the wind

The answer is blowing in the wind

 

... But as a practical matter, people tend not to move large awkward trackable items very much. They're hard to carry with you when you're geocaching. They're bigger than a lot of the geocaches people encounter. They're often hard to fit in caches that might be large enough, because there are other things in the cache, and you can't dump it all out just to put a large awkward trackable item in the cache.

Agreed. I'm suggesting a tag maybe four inches in length, an inch in width. Not shiny or pretty -- just a waterproof, durable tag that clearly states the purpose of the attached trackable -- something brighly colored, but smaller and inexpensive, like a bendy action figure. Yes, there are apparently two bowling balls as trackables out there. That's someone else's goal. Incidentally, Buster Ball II is not in the cache where it's currently supposed to be located.

 

Chris

Edited June 9, 2015 by LaughterOnWater

[+LaughterOnWater]

But seriously--why is this not a guideline for cache finders?

So if I go to a conference,

and I collect a bunch of trinkets from various vendor booths,

and I use those trinkets (which display the various vendor names, of course) as trade items,

then you think there is something wrong with that?

Mmm... Outside of geocaching.com, are you endorsing a particular business, religion or non-profit by placing those trinkets? It would appear not. Game on.

 

Now if you were placing pamphlets on how to buy those trinkets in caches, I might suggest you have an agenda.

Edited June 9, 2015 by LaughterOnWater

[+NeverSummer]

But seriously--why is this not a guideline for cache finders?

So if I go to a conference,

and I collect a bunch of trinkets from various vendor booths,

and I use those trinkets (which display the various vendor names, of course) as trade items,

then you think there is something wrong with that?

Mmm... Outside of geocaching.com, are you endorsing a particular business, religion or non-profit by placing those trinkets? It would appear not. Game on.

 

Now if you were placing pamphlets on how to buy those trinkets in caches, I might suggest you have an agenda.

[+ArtieD]

But seriously--why is this not a guideline for cache finders?

So if I go to a conference,

and I collect a bunch of trinkets from various vendor booths,

and I use those trinkets (which display the various vendor names, of course) as trade items,

then you think there is something wrong with that?

Mmm... Outside of geocaching.com, are you endorsing a particular business, religion or non-profit by placing those trinkets? It would appear not. Game on.

 

Now if you were placing pamphlets on how to buy those trinkets in caches, I might suggest you have an agenda.

:drama:

Edited June 9, 2015 by Arthur & Trillian

[+LaughterOnWater]

Wow...the new guy really wants to rock the boat!

I'm ignorant.

So I'm questioning the status quo.

Are you happy with the status quo?

When you're done laughing, why not educate me?

 

Why not convince me why it's right and good to leave someone's expired pizza coupons, moldy business cards and religious and non-profit pamphlets in a family-friendly cache that is supposed to be agenda-free?

 

What number of finds makes me qualified to make change-of-rules suggestions to the forum? 100? 1000? If as others have suggested, number-of-finds is the wrong measure, what is the right measure?

 

Chris

Edited June 10, 2015 by LaughterOnWater

[+Adventure.AS]

Wow...the new guy really wants to rock the boat!

I'm ignorant.

So I'm questioning the status quo.

Are you happy with the status quo?

When you're done laughing, why not educate me?

 

Why not convince me why it's right and good to leave someone's expired pizza coupons, moldy business cards and religious and non-profit pamphlets in a family-friendly cache that is supposed to be agenda-free?

 

What number of finds makes me qualified to make change-of-rules suggestions to the forum? 100? 1000? If as others have suggested, number-of-finds is the wrong measure, what is the right measure?

 

Chris

Not forum post count by other posters either. Take what a lot of posters say with a grain of salt.

Edited June 10, 2015 by Nonsuch30

[+NeverSummer]

But seriously--why is this not a guideline for cache finders?

So if I go to a conference,

and I collect a bunch of trinkets from various vendor booths,

and I use those trinkets (which display the various vendor names, of course) as trade items,

then you think there is something wrong with that?

Mmm... Outside of geocaching.com, are you endorsing a particular business, religion or non-profit by placing those trinkets? It would appear not. Game on.

 

Now if you were placing pamphlets on how to buy those trinkets in caches, I might suggest you have an agenda.

Are we talking trade items (swag), or something somebody tosses into a cache out of their pockets?

 

If I find slips of paper, be they used bus passes, movie tickets, or religious tracts, I generally take them out of the cache because what in the world would anyone trade up or even for those items? Nothing... so... Moot point, LOW. Best to leave this one alone here on the forums.

[+ArtieD]

I'm ignorant.

So I'm questioning the status quo.

 

Why are you questioning it? To what end? You've barely wet your toes in the pond that is geocaching, yet you want to change it. Why?

 

Are you happy with the status quo?

 

For the most part, yes. The game is what you make it. You can choose what caches to do, what swag to take, leave or ignore and you can cache as much or as little as you want.

 

When you're done laughing, why not educate me?

 

On what? You seem to have it all figured out.

 

Why not convince me why it's right and good to leave someone's expired pizza coupons, moldy business cards and religious and non-profit pamphlets in a family-friendly cache that is supposed to be agenda-free?

 

One, because leaving those things does not constitute promoting an agenda...it's all in your head. Two, people are free to leave what they like in caches, with the exception of a few kinds of items. Three, I do not have to convince you, because you are not the arbiter of what is acceptable. If you don't like what you see, ignore it, close the lid and find the next cache.

 

What number of finds makes me qualified to make change-of-rules suggestions to the forum? 100? 1000? If as others have suggested, number-of-finds is the wrong measure, what is the right measure?

 

The right measure is being in the game long enough to know the ins and outs of the game based on experience. Cache count does not equate to experience, nor does post count. You do not have the experience of finding a variety of caches, which can at least help gain you a better perspective. Sorry, but a guy who's joined three weeks ago and has limited caching experience does not inspire me to take his ideas very seriously.

Edited June 10, 2015 by Arthur & Trillian

[+L0ne.R]

I don't remove religious icons like a stone with an etched cross in it, or a rosary, or Mardi Gras beads. I don't remove paperclips, clothespins, bobby pins or those little hair bands. Though I'm sorely tempted...

 

It is not your place to play swag cop. If you don't like a certain type of swag, fine...don't take it. It does not give you the right to remove it.

 

He can remove them, trade even or up.

Edited June 10, 2015 by L0ne.R

[knowschad]

But seriously--why is this not a guideline for cache finders?

So if I go to a conference,

and I collect a bunch of trinkets from various vendor booths,

and I use those trinkets (which display the various vendor names, of course) as trade items,

then you think there is something wrong with that?

Mmm... Outside of geocaching.com, are you endorsing a particular business, religion or non-profit by placing those trinkets? It would appear not. Game on.

 

Now if you were placing pamphlets on how to buy those trinkets in caches, I might suggest you have an agenda.

:drama:

 

Careful... you're gonna get fat!

[+ArtieD]

But seriously--why is this not a guideline for cache finders?

So if I go to a conference,

and I collect a bunch of trinkets from various vendor booths,

and I use those trinkets (which display the various vendor names, of course) as trade items,

then you think there is something wrong with that?

Mmm... Outside of geocaching.com, are you endorsing a particular business, religion or non-profit by placing those trinkets? It would appear not. Game on.

 

Now if you were placing pamphlets on how to buy those trinkets in caches, I might suggest you have an agenda.

:drama:

 

Careful... you're gonna get fat!

 

Too late! :drama:

[knowschad]

Wow...the new guy really wants to rock the boat!

I'm ignorant.

So I'm questioning the status quo.

Are you happy with the status quo?

When you're done laughing, why not educate me?

 

Why not convince me why it's right and good to leave someone's expired pizza coupons, moldy business cards and religious and non-profit pamphlets in a family-friendly cache that is supposed to be agenda-free?

 

What number of finds makes me qualified to make change-of-rules suggestions to the forum? 100? 1000? If as others have suggested, number-of-finds is the wrong measure, what is the right measure?

 

Chris

 

Sounds to me like you'd better start hitting a few power trails so you can post in here.

[knowschad]

I'm ignorant.

So I'm questioning the status quo.

 

Why are you questioning it? To what end? You've barely wet your toes in the pond that is geocaching, yet you want to change it. Why?

 

Are you happy with the status quo?

 

For the most part, yes. The game is what you make it. You can choose what caches to do, what swag to take, leave or ignore and you can cache as much or as little as you want.

 

When you're done laughing, why not educate me?

 

On what? You seem to have it all figured out.

 

Why not convince me why it's right and good to leave someone's expired pizza coupons, moldy business cards and religious and non-profit pamphlets in a family-friendly cache that is supposed to be agenda-free?

 

One, because leaving those things does not constitute promoting an agenda...it's all in your head. Two, people are free to leave what they like in caches, with the exception of a few kinds of items. Three, I do not have to convince you, because you are not the arbiter of what is acceptable. If you don't like what you see, ignore it, close the lid and find the next cache.

 

What number of finds makes me qualified to make change-of-rules suggestions to the forum? 100? 1000? If as others have suggested, number-of-finds is the wrong measure, what is the right measure?

 

The right measure is being in the game long enough to know the ins and outs of the game based on experience. Cache count does not equate to experience, nor does post count. You do not have the experience of finding a variety of caches, which can at least help gain you a better perspective. Sorry, but a guy who's joined three weeks ago and has limited caching experience does not inspire me to take his ideas very seriously.

 

I dunno... I hear a lot more common sense coming from his mouth than from some other mouths around here. He wants to better things. You seem to want to maintain the status quo. I'll side with wanting to better things, even if I maybe don't agree with his methods. Nothing wrong with bettering things.

[+ArtieD]

I dunno... I hear a lot more common sense coming from his mouth than from some other mouths around here. He wants to better things. You seem to want to maintain the status quo. I'll side with wanting to better things, even if I maybe don't agree with his methods. Nothing wrong with bettering things.

 

He only wants to ban things he doesn't like. That's not seeking to better anything...it's seeking to mold caching into what he thinks it should be. Screw that. I refuse to suffer anyone who thinks they should dictate how the rest of the world caches.

Edited June 10, 2015 by Arthur & Trillian

[+L0ne.R]

The question is, can we get back to a better level of experience? ...

 

Heck, we're all more scared of the NM and NA logs than we've ever been--and all because we're afraid of being a "cache cop". But that's just the type of accountability we should be bringing back to the game--reporting bad caches; keeping our caches in great shape: maintaining swag, containers, and logbooks; welcoming and mentoring new cachers we meet...etc.

 

 

I strongly believe that NMs, NAs and mentoring via online logs (or PMs - but public mentoring sends out a message to everyone), are the best tool we have to try to get a better level of caching.

[+wandillup wanderer]

i think with over 6 million geocaches out there and more than 2 million cachers looking for and finding them the range of opinions on what constitutes a good,bad or exceptional one will be huge.

I have not been involved in caching that long but have cached in many different locations and have seen a wide range of caches and for me the fun of the game is as much about the hunt as it is about the find at the end of it.

I do agree that since i started in 2011 there seems to be a sameness about cache containers and camouflage(or lack of it) creeping into the sport.

I have a few of my own caches out there and while the actual container may be a generic one i try to make the camouflage suit the area in which it is hidden which i think adds interest to the hunt.

It is worth noting that the most finds on my caches are those where they are hidden close to main roads or easily accessible areas,which shows most cachers don't necessarily want to travel too far off the beaten path to find one.

On a recent holiday in Thailand i found some caches on Koh Samui,some were good some were average.One i found was just a cut off plastic water bottle hung on a roof timber in a stall but it was next to a magnificent pagoda perched on the edge of a beautiful beach area.Another was on a small rocky island that was only accessible by boat,swim or kayak which i thought was a great hide and awarded a fave. point for.So you can see sometimes its not always about the cache itself but where the location takes you.

As far a improvements go one area i think needs a focus on is some sort of verification of having landowners/custodian permission before a cache can be published.This should reduce the amount of meaningless cache placements and compel CO,s to consider fully whether the site is appropriate for a cache.

It is also apparent that trackables are becoming some what redundant in the game,mainly due to finders not doing the right thing when moving them.I think the process of logging trackable movements could be streamlined a bit to make it easier which may help to regain some relevance for them.

Whatever you opinion is on the current state of geocaching don't lose sight of the fact caching gets your butt of the chair and doing something active.

Happy Caching

Wandillup Wanderer

[+ArtieD]

Whatever you opinion is on the current state of geocaching don't lose sight of the fact caching gets your butt of the chair and doing something active.

 

Quote of the day!

[+NeverSummer]

The question is, can we get back to a better level of experience? ...

 

Heck, we're all more scared of the NM and NA logs than we've ever been--and all because we're afraid of being a "cache cop". But that's just the type of accountability we should be bringing back to the game--reporting bad caches; keeping our caches in great shape: maintaining swag, containers, and logbooks; welcoming and mentoring new cachers we meet...etc.

 

 

I strongly believe that NMs, NAs and mentoring via online logs (or PMs - but public mentoring sends out a message to everyone), are the best tool we have to try to get a better level of caching.

And on the other side of those NM and NA logs, a proactive approach from Reviewers with disabling and archiving caches which are against the guidelines, or are not being maintained in line with the guidelines. It seems like there is quite a bit of inconsistency over what gets published (buried is ok in some regions, e.g. [?!?!]), and what gets archived. I've seen first hand reluctant approaches to reporting and archiving "old" caches, favorited caches, and caches with "unique" D/T combos, even when they are against the guidelines or are not being maintained by the owner.

 

There are some really, really great volunteer Reviewers out there, but there's also some significant inconsistency. And with that authority of being a "mentor" or "model member" as a Reviewer comes a heavy serving of needing to be consistent, fair, and to have some extra personal accountability.

 

So, it isn't just the users who need to engage in the NM/NA logs, but Reviewers and Groundspeak need to be consistent with how they handle caches which are against the guidelines. It seems like there is too much energy being put into more caches, faster, and with less accountability built in. This is all compounded by having "model members" in positions where they aren't making decisions consistently with the guidelines across borders. NM and NA logs are now pre-loaded with all kinds of anxiety, uncertainty, and unfamiliarity...which leads to them being used less or altogether improperly.

Edited June 10, 2015 by NeverSummer

[knowschad]

I dunno... I hear a lot more common sense coming from his mouth than from some other mouths around here. He wants to better things. You seem to want to maintain the status quo. I'll side with wanting to better things, even if I maybe don't agree with his methods. Nothing wrong with bettering things.

 

He only wants to ban things he doesn't like. That's not seeking to better anything...it's seeking to mold caching into what he thinks it should be. Screw that. I refuse to suffer anyone who thinks they should dictate how the rest of the world caches.

I guess you also refuse to suffer yourself, then.

 

He was offering suggestions... he doesn't have the power to ban anything. Don't be so afraid of someone else's opinions.

[+ArtieD]

I dunno... I hear a lot more common sense coming from his mouth than from some other mouths around here. He wants to better things. You seem to want to maintain the status quo. I'll side with wanting to better things, even if I maybe don't agree with his methods. Nothing wrong with bettering things.

 

He only wants to ban things he doesn't like. That's not seeking to better anything...it's seeking to mold caching into what he thinks it should be. Screw that. I refuse to suffer anyone who thinks they should dictate how the rest of the world caches.

I guess you also refuse to suffer yourself, then.

 

He was offering suggestions... he doesn't have the power to ban anything. Don't be so afraid of someone else's opinions.

 

I am not afraid of opinion. I call out ignorant opinion. Difference.

 

Either way, sometimes I think you just like to argue for the sake of arguing...pretty much like a troll. I am sure you'll have a sarcastic or otherwise cute reply to this, so don't leave me hanging...

Edited June 10, 2015 by Arthur & Trillian

[+LaughterOnWater]

He only wants to ban things he doesn't like. That's not seeking to better anything...it's seeking to mold caching into what he thinks it should be. Screw that. I refuse to suffer anyone who thinks they should dictate how the rest of the world caches.

In offering strong opinions, I am hoping to get others to think outside the box. Where I have bad ideas, I acknowledge them and move on to the next bad idea. I am sorry for upsetting you.

 

Worse, if you are that guy who is putting business cards or religious-or-non-profit pamphlets into caches, I must be your worst nightmare. If so, then we are at opposite ends of the spectrum, and I'm not sure how to reply without seeming like I'm world-bashing.

 

Geocaching.com can't afford status quo. The internet moves too quickly today. Status quo steadily devolves into status senes.

 

Banning things is not a fun policy. But forcing agendas into a sport that's supposed to be an agenda-free, family-oriented outing is disappointing. That's why I'm asking what would be a better policy. At 6500+ finds, surely you have some better ideas?

Edited June 10, 2015 by LaughterOnWater

[+ArtieD]

In offering strong opinions, I am hoping to get others to think outside the box. Where I have bad ideas, I acknowledge them and move on to the next bad idea. I am sorry for upsetting you.

 

I am not so much upset but more disgusted that a barely-experienced newbie thinks he has to "suggest" sweeping changes to a game he's barely been playing.

 

Worse, if you are that guy who is putting business cards or religious-or-non-profit pamphlets into caches, I must be your worst nightmare. If so, then we are at opposite ends of the spectrum, and I'm not sure how to reply without seeming like I'm world-bashing.

 

I'm not. I rarely trade swag or leave anything.

 

Geocaching.com can't afford status quo. The internet moves too quickly today. Status quo steadily devolves into status senes.

 

Sage advice from a three week veteran.

 

Banning things is not a fun policy. But forcing agendas into a sport that's supposed to be an agenda-free, family-oriented outing is disappointing.

 

There is no agenda. Matter of fact, Groundspeak goes to great lengths to prevent agendas. Cache swag is independent of it. You cannot control it and it's not Groundspeak's place to tell cachers what to do in that area.

 

That's why I'm asking what would be a better policy. At 6500+ finds, surely you have some better ideas?

 

The best policy is to leave it as it is. There is nothing inherently wrong.