Jump to content

Geocaching/Groundspeak overhaul required


Followers 6

Recommended Posts

I also worked in QA for a time. Not 13 years, but long enough to know that they DO have a definition of quality, and my job was to ensure that the product lived up to that definition.

 

But you still refuse to define quality.

 

Oh, good grief! OK, here you go... from Wikipedia:

 

Quality in business, engineering and manufacturing has a pragmatic interpretation as the non-inferiority or superiority of something; it is also defined as fitness for purpose. Quality is a perceptual, conditional, and somewhat subjective attribute and may be understood differently by different people.

 

I remind you that this is a discussion forum, not a debate forum. I dislike this sort of nit-picking discussion. My whole point is that we (the majority of people) agree within pretty close parameters what the word, "quality" means, and we don't need a nit-picking definition of it, just as we (the majority of people) pretty much agree on what "blue" looks like. Even though we may all be thinking of a somewhat different shade, we don't confuse it with red or yellow or green. Anything more is simply being argumentative for the sake of arguing.

 

All of this being a long-winded way to say that you're right, but I'll still argue the point because I refuse to admit I am wrong.

Link to comment

I recognize that War & Peace is a quality piece of literature.

 

I recognize that a two-year-old issue of Cosmopolitan at the hair salon is not a quality piece of literature.

 

And yet, under the right circumstances, either one can be enjoyable.

Link to comment
Quality is not all that subjective. Sure, there is some wiggle room, but not all that much.

 

Categorically untrue. If you speak of container quality, I give it to you. If you speak placement, there is a lot of wiggle room. Different strokes...

 

I am not referring to container quality. Tell me of one person that would consider, say, a LPC in a Walmart parking lot a "quality" cache.

 

You know how they say there's someone for everyone on this big ol' Earth?

 

There you go. No doubt there are some who like them.

Oh, I have NO DOUBT there are some that LIKE them. But I still say they would not consider them "quality". Big difference.

 

I know a lot of people who hate them, but still hunt them because they are "there" or because they want to keep a certain radius "clear" of unfound caches, or for a variety of other excuses. Today, stick a Hide-a-key on a dumpster next to 7-Eleven and the finds roll in. Hide a cache that is a mile hike to a scenic waterfall and you are lucky to get a find a month. Hide `100 non-descript film canister caches every .1 mile along some non-descript stretch of road and you become a local hero. The problem isn't Groundspeak, the problem is us and it's been this way for over a decade. If that WalMart LPC was ignored, then there would be little incentive to hide them. I'm sure most people in this thread are guilty of hunting and logging those caches. The "quick fix" or whatever it's called. I stopped hunting that nonsense many years ago. If the GPS points me to some strip mall or parking lot, I keep driving. I've had many cachers joke with me about my low number of finds, considering how long I've been at this, but I'm happy hunting the sort of caches that I enjoy. It's becoming a bit of a chore though to filter out all of the chaff and I don't geocache to add another chore to my life. It's why my yearly find count has generally declined in the past decade.

 

As Walt Kelly said, "We have met the enemy and he is us"

Link to comment

All this talk about 'quality' proves one thing. Quality is in the eyes of the beholder. To me, getting back to the OP, and their idea that an overhaul is required, I disagree that an overhaul is required. I think we already have most of the tools in place with geocaching.com, we now need to finish what is needed to make use of them.

 

For me, any cache that is part of a geotour is one I want to find. When travelling, I look for earthcaches, virtuals and webcams. Anything that helps fill out my Jasmer and D/T challenges is something I am interested in. I am not interested in Park n' Grabs. I don't have scuba equipment, so those that require it are out. In winter, I want to avoid caches that can't be found under lots of snow. Late at night, I want to make sure the cache is available 24/7. If I have to pay a fee, I'd like to know up front. All of these things would help winnow out caches I'm not really interested in. All of these searches are possible using attributes.

 

However, attributes currently suffer because of inconsistent application, and the fact that they weren't added until later, so a lot of the early caches don't have them. How can we overcome this?

 

First, we have to get the reviewers to require attributes. They really can't challenge what the CO says, but a cache is either available 24/7 or it is not. It is available during winter, or it is not. There are a handful of attributes that should always be set. Make the CO set those. Parking available, restrooms available, those are examples of attributes that the reviewer can't mandate. Maybe we change the cache submission process so that the CO has to go through a series of questions and can't skip them. Anyhow, encourage the CO to make the attributes accurate.

 

The second thing is we need a mechanism to allow attributes to be added (or changed), on existing caches. This is a lot harder, what with CO's that won't take the time, or CO's that are not longer around. We may need a process that allows the users a method to suggest attributes. One way could be to allow attributes to be submitted with logs. If enough users set the same attribute, the system will update the attributes on the cache. Or maybe we duplicate the attributes. CO submitted attributes, and user attributes (with a count of the number of users that set the attribute).

 

Anyhow, my $0.02 worth (and I probably am overcharging).

 

Thanks, Skye.

Link to comment

All this talk about 'quality' proves one thing. Quality is in the eyes of the beholder.

It proves to me that we have a lot of people that love to argue. :rolleyes:

 

Seriously... quality and beauty are very similar concepts. I'd urge you to read this:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-scientific-fundamentalist/200804/all-stereotypes-are-true-except-ii-beauty-is-in-the-eye

 

(excerpt)

They say beauty is in the eye of the beholder, which means that different people possess different standards of beauty and that not everyone agrees on who is beautiful and who is not. This is the first stereotype or aphorism that evolutionary psychology has overturned. It turns out that the standards of beauty are not only the same across individuals and cultures, they are also innate. We are born with the notion of who’s beautiful and who’s not.

 

Or this: http://www.livescience.com/7389-sense-beauty-partly-innate-study-suggests.html

Or this: http://www.gnxp.com/MT2/archives/002687.html

Link to comment

You want quality?, go and hide quality caches.

 

 

I used to believe in this, but today if you hide quality caches it's not likely others will emulate you. People tend to hide what they find and what they are finding are largely roadside and strip mall micros. I emulated the early hiders in the area with caches that brought me to cool places that involved a bit of a walk. Other cachers started emulating my caches down to the large "Geocache, No Danger" that I stamped prominently on the side, the laminated "geo letter" in the lid and the camo I used. Sometimes the caches looked so much like my own that I had to double check my GPS because I swore it was mine.

 

But around 2010ish a new generation of cachers started to hide the roadside micros and they propagated like rabbits. The old caches are still out there, the ones I copied and the ones that emulated mine. Today they all sit virtually unvisited while a single cache on a local power trail garnered more finds in the first few months than all of my 350 some caches together did over 14 years.

 

Hide all of the quality caches you want, but it doesn't mean others will follow you.

Link to comment

Hide all of the quality caches you want, but it doesn't mean others will follow you.

Hide no quality caches, and they won't even know it's a possibility.

 

There will be some who see and enjoy quality then try to pay it forward. But the odds are that most newer people won't do this. I'm sure they come across caches that they think are cool but i'd also bet that they forget about them pretty quickly because they're playing a phone app game where getting points is the main objective.

 

Imo, the phone app has been the biggest detriment to geocaching. I figure that most people see the app as just another game to win. Since it's an app, the majority of it's users probably download and go without ever trying to learn more about our hobby. They find a "beginner's" cache, then if they ever feel like it, hide another just like it. Unfortunately, it's most likely going to be a cache of lower quality with a good chance of their coordinates being off. The find logs that do come in from phone users are most always TFTC or maybe if we're lucky, a short one line sentence. It's a phone so people aren't going to take the time to tap in a decent log. Then we have the double logs that come in that we may or may not choose to deal with.

 

I realize that all of the above have been going on since the beginning but you gotta admit, these things happen a lot more often these days.

Link to comment

All these things have ALWAYS been a problem it's just that there's a lot more of us doing it.

 

Correction: There's a lot more of us popping into the game and then leaving it right away.

 

Those of us who are the bedrock, the very cornerstone of Cacherness, our very bones humming with the desire to tramp off and find great hides, visit outstanding locations and report back that we didn't find your flipping film can or the log was moist, are being left in the dust by some sort of oozing conformity.

 

Haven't you noticed the website, which once was all high contrast, simple without great piles of javascript and cascading style sheets, is getting all soft and mushy? Even BLACK is gone from our cache listings, the text is in some daft #594a42 color now. (If you want black you must code for it!)

 

Geocaching vision seems to be Give 'em less and control it more.

Link to comment

Can I as a technical "noobie" make a case here?

 

I started Geocaching back in 2012 when my dad gave me a Garmin Dakota for my birthday, and since then, I've been hooked. I typically go for caches that I think I would enjoy finding and filter out those that aren't up my alley. I think it's great that Geocaching has become as big as it has (DON'T SHOOT ME YET!), though when anything becomes big, it has a backlash.

 

I personally enjoy that there are enough Geocaches out there for people to play the game the way they want to. I personally hate urban caching, so a large number of my finds are in rural areas, whereas my dad just enjoys the thrill of the hunt, no matter where it is. Without numbers, how could people ever play the way they want? Sure, because of numbers you get your leaking pill bottles under a light pole, but also because of numbers you get hides like Ottieolsen does.

 

Now, this one is more personal, so I don't necessarily expect you guys to relate. I love how big Geocaching is because it enables me to meet people who are like me. As a recent high school graduate, many of my peers looked down upon anyone who went hiking on a regular basis because it wasn't the norm. Since I've gone to events and even met a few cachers in the wild, I've found that there are people out there who are like me and enjoy the same things I do.

 

With that said, I agree that there are things that need to be fixed. I personally think it would be a great idea for the Itro App to only allow you to find five caches before it makes you buy the app for $0.99 or something of the like. That will cut down on the number of people just finding six or seven, and ruining good caches as well as taking trackables. This is because it might cause people to go on the site and see what Geocaching is actually all about.

 

I also think that this quote should be freaking PLASTERED all over the "make a Geocache listing" pages.

"When you go to hide a geocache, think of the reason you are bringing people to that spot. If the only reason is for the geocache, then find a better spot." – briansnat

If I hadn't read the guidelines, then I never would have seen this quote. Then I doubt I would be making the Geocaches I am today.

 

I don't think Geocaching is a broken game, I believe it has flaws and problems, but what "society" doesn't. This isn't to say we should just sit back and let the problems exist, but I do believe that one's personal outlook on the Geocaching world makes all the difference.

 

Sorry for the long post.

Edited by KaRue
Link to comment

What we need is a tool that allows the community tell cachers that there is a problem with their hides.

 

And this is why its important, we are so diverse that a community might prefer guardrail caches so they will appreciate them more than big hikes into the woods, while another community will be the opposite.

And both are correct. Both type of hides can be awesome.

 

I think the favorite voting system needs to be overhauled.

The voting should be anonymous and people should be able to either vote +1 or -1 to a cache.

 

If someone starts seeing negative votes on their hides two things will happen. People will start avoiding those hides and the owner will understand that their hides are not interesting to the community.

 

I think that this would be an effective method to let the community deal with their caches.

Edited by ZeMartelo
Link to comment

 

The voting should be anonymous and people should be able to either vote +1 or -1 to a cache.

 

If someone starts seeing negative votes on their hides two things will happen. People will start avoiding those hides and the owner will understand that their hides are not interesting to the community.

That's a great idea.

Link to comment

 

The voting should be anonymous and people should be able to either vote +1 or -1 to a cache.

 

If someone starts seeing negative votes on their hides two things will happen. People will start avoiding those hides and the owner will understand that their hides are not interesting to the community.

That's a great idea.

 

Unfortunately, I think Groundspeak previously stated they don't want a rating system with a negative option. Maybe someone remembers the specifics? I think this came out after Favorites were introduced.

 

Maybe Groundspeak will change their mind, but I doubt it.

Link to comment

Unfortunately, I think Groundspeak previously stated they don't want a rating system with a negative option. Maybe someone remembers the specifics? I think this came out after Favorites were introduced.

 

Maybe Groundspeak will change their mind, but I doubt it.

 

With GS wanting to look like FB (Message center, layout..) it's not gonna happen. It puts a negative feel to things and that could scare away noobies (who pay for apps).

 

On the other hand, there would need to be a filter so you can only start to +1 or -1 after you have found xxx caches (how else would you know a good cache from a bad?

Link to comment

I think the favorite voting system needs to be overhauled.

The voting should be anonymous and people should be able to either vote +1 or -1 to a cache.

I think the last thing geocaching needs is the ability to take potshots without accepting responsibility. It's a bad idea even if you think there's a problem. But I don't think there's a problem, anyway: geocachers have plenty of ways to express their appreciation or displeasure through logs, private e-mail, and talking at events. Besides, I don't like the idea of a CO that's doing something interesting being lambasted just because what he's doing doesn't happen to fit into the current community's preferences.

Link to comment

I think the favorite voting system needs to be overhauled.

The voting should be anonymous and people should be able to either vote +1 or -1 to a cache.

I think the last thing geocaching needs is the ability to take potshots without accepting responsibility. It's a bad idea even if you think there's a problem. But I don't think there's a problem, anyway: geocachers have plenty of ways to express their appreciation or displeasure through logs, private e-mail, and talking at events. Besides, I don't like the idea of a CO that's doing something interesting being lambasted just because what he's doing doesn't happen to fit into the current community's preferences.

+1

Link to comment

What we need is a tool that allows the community tell cachers that there is a problem with their hides.

 

If only there was some system where cache finders could leave detailed comments, or warn other geocachers of issues, or bring an issue to a reviewer's attention. They should really implement something like that.

Link to comment

What we need is a tool that allows the community tell cachers that there is a problem with their hides.

 

If only there was some system where cache finders could leave detailed comments, or warn other geocachers of issues, or bring an issue to a reviewer's attention. They should really implement something like that.

 

How is that going to improve cache placements??

I rarely read logs and when I do its when I am on site looking for a cache and I am having trouble finding it, so I read the logs looking for hints..

And why are we brining the reviewers into this?

Its not their job to assure that a cache meets quality standards as accepted by the community.

Link to comment

What we need is a tool that allows the community tell cachers that there is a problem with their hides.

 

If only there was some system where cache finders could leave detailed comments, or warn other geocachers of issues, or bring an issue to a reviewer's attention. They should really implement something like that.

 

How is that going to improve cache placements??

I rarely read logs and when I do its when I am on site looking for a cache and I am having trouble finding it, so I read the logs looking for hints..

And why are we brining the reviewers into this?

Its not their job to assure that a cache meets quality standards as accepted by the community.

 

If you don't pay attention to the system that we currently have, what is going to make you pay attention to additional information?

Link to comment

What we need is a tool that allows the community tell cachers that there is a problem with their hides.

 

If only there was some system where cache finders could leave detailed comments, or warn other geocachers of issues, or bring an issue to a reviewer's attention. They should really implement something like that.

 

I vote these ideas be implemented asap! :lol:

 

A negative voting thingy won't help. The main thing it will cause is more drama. The favorite system is not perfect but i honestly can't think of a way to make it better. It does help many of us find some of the good out there.

Link to comment

What we need is a tool that allows the community tell cachers that there is a problem with their hides.

 

If only there was some system where cache finders could leave detailed comments, or warn other geocachers of issues, or bring an issue to a reviewer's attention. They should really implement something like that.

 

I vote these ideas be implemented asap! :lol:

 

A negative voting thingy won't help. The main thing it will cause is more drama. The favorite system is not perfect but i honestly can't think of a way to make it better. It does help many of us find some of the good out there.

 

The favorite system doesnt work because the voting is so subjective that most people just ignore the system.

I have read logs of people giving a favorite to a cache simply because they found it when it was raining, or because they wanted to go out for a walk and this cache was the closest one, etc...

 

Caches with negative points will have an impact. People will notice negative points.

Link to comment

What we need is a tool that allows the community tell cachers that there is a problem with their hides.

 

If only there was some system where cache finders could leave detailed comments, or warn other geocachers of issues, or bring an issue to a reviewer's attention. They should really implement something like that.

 

I vote these ideas be implemented asap! :lol:

 

A negative voting thingy won't help. The main thing it will cause is more drama. The favorite system is not perfect but i honestly can't think of a way to make it better. It does help many of us find some of the good out there.

 

The favorite system doesnt work because the voting is so subjective that most people just ignore the system.

I have read logs of people giving a favorite to a cache simply because they found it when it was raining, or because they wanted to go out for a walk and this cache was the closest one, etc...

 

Caches with negative points will have an impact. People will notice negative points.

 

Negative points will also be subjective.

Link to comment
The favorite system doesnt work because the voting is so subjective that most people just ignore the system.

I have read logs of people giving a favorite to a cache simply because they found it when it was raining, or because they wanted to go out for a walk and this cache was the closest one, etc...

 

Caches with negative points will have an impact. People will notice negative points.

Negative points will also be subjective.
Yep. Negative points will be awarded just as subjectively as positive points or as the current Favorites points.

 

What would be really useful is a system that automatically correlates my preferences with those of others, and then showed me caches that were enjoyed by people with preferences similar to my own.

Link to comment

Pie-in-the-Sky ideas and thoughts after just a few finds.

 

As a new user, I'm concerned with what I have seen so far. I'm in favor of some changes. New users should be required to find at least 100 caches to get an idea of what works before being allowed to even create a cache.

 

I may be new, but I would rather find quality caches than caches that require hazmat gloves. So far half have contained garbage crammed in with a log. One had a bullet. Two had items I regret having touched with bare hands and am loath to describe. Half the logs I've found so far have been soggy. New cache owners should be required to check their caches on a regular schedule.

 

Education is Key

New cachers should be disallowed from, or perhaps strongly cautioned against, leaving any paper items other than a log. Also disallow bobby pins, paper clips, clothes pins, cheap marbles, money, plastic beads, mardi gras necklaces or craft junk they merely bought from Michael's Craft Store. Home made crafts are fine. Plastic dinosaurs are fine. Matchbox cars are fine. Just not those tiny foam snowflake stickers you just bought by the thousands merely to drop in every bleeping cache. If I owned the cache, I'd trash all that stuff on each maintenance run.

 

There needs to be more critical video lessons describing best practices in contrast with bad practices. Tell newbies what sucks as swag. Stop being wishy washy about it. Yes, it's a game, but a good game should demand a level of excellence from its players. Good games attract players who want to play by the rules. These kinds of changes might persuade people with very short attention spans choose a less-demanding hobby, like watching soaps.

 

Get rid of trackables. Magpies are collecting these like swag. I'm never going to pay five or ten bucks just so someone else can collect and keep my trackable. Not. Happening. Either that or make trackables unattractive to magpies.

Link to comment

Pie-in-the-Sky ideas and thoughts after just a few finds.

 

As a new user, I'm concerned with what I have seen so far. I'm in favor of some changes. New users should be required to find at least 100 caches to get an idea of what works before being allowed to even create a cache.

 

I may be new, but I would rather find quality caches than caches that require hazmat gloves. So far half have contained garbage crammed in with a log. One had a bullet. Two had items I regret having touched with bare hands and am loath to describe. Half the logs I've found so far have been soggy. New cache owners should be required to check their caches on a regular schedule.

 

Education is Key

New cachers should be disallowed from, or perhaps strongly cautioned against, leaving any paper items other than a log. Also disallow bobby pins, paper clips, clothes pins, cheap marbles, money, plastic beads, mardi gras necklaces or craft junk they merely bought from Michael's Craft Store. Home made crafts are fine. Plastic dinosaurs are fine. Matchbox cars are fine. Just not those tiny foam snowflake stickers you just bought by the thousands merely to drop in every bleeping cache. If I owned the cache, I'd trash all that stuff on each maintenance run.

 

There needs to be more critical video lessons describing best practices in contrast with bad practices. Tell newbies what sucks as swag. Stop being wishy washy about it. Yes, it's a game, but a good game should demand a level of excellence from its players. Good games attract players who want to play by the rules. These kinds of changes might persuade people with very short attention spans choose a less-demanding hobby, like watching soaps.

 

Get rid of trackables. Magpies are collecting these like swag. I'm never going to pay five or ten bucks just so someone else can collect and keep my trackable. Not. Happening. Either that or make trackables unattractive to magpies.

 

Maybe you should invent a new game if you're so unhappy with this one after a handful of finds.

Link to comment

Pie-in-the-Sky ideas and thoughts after just a few finds.

 

As a new user, I'm concerned with what I have seen so far. I'm in favor of some changes. New users should be required to find at least 100 caches to get an idea of what works before being allowed to even create a cache.

 

I may be new, but I would rather find quality caches than caches that require hazmat gloves. So far half have contained garbage crammed in with a log. One had a bullet. Two had items I regret having touched with bare hands and am loath to describe. Half the logs I've found so far have been soggy. New cache owners should be required to check their caches on a regular schedule.

 

Education is Key

New cachers should be disallowed from, or perhaps strongly cautioned against, leaving any paper items other than a log. Also disallow bobby pins, paper clips, clothes pins, cheap marbles, money, plastic beads, mardi gras necklaces or craft junk they merely bought from Michael's Craft Store. Home made crafts are fine. Plastic dinosaurs are fine. Matchbox cars are fine. Just not those tiny foam snowflake stickers you just bought by the thousands merely to drop in every bleeping cache. If I owned the cache, I'd trash all that stuff on each maintenance run.

 

There needs to be more critical video lessons describing best practices in contrast with bad practices. Tell newbies what sucks as swag. Stop being wishy washy about it. Yes, it's a game, but a good game should demand a level of excellence from its players. Good games attract players who want to play by the rules. These kinds of changes might persuade people with very short attention spans choose a less-demanding hobby, like watching soaps.

 

Get rid of trackables. Magpies are collecting these like swag. I'm never going to pay five or ten bucks just so someone else can collect and keep my trackable. Not. Happening. Either that or make trackables unattractive to magpies.

 

Maybe you should invent a new game if you're so unhappy with this one after a handful of finds.

 

It's great that you're concerned about his happiness but I didn't see anything in that post which indicated that he is unhappy.

 

He merely expressed a concern about a couple of aspects of the game. That doesn't mean that he's unhappy, hates a certain type of cache or a way of playing, or has his panties in a bunch.

 

How about addressing the merits of the concern instead of labeling the person expressing a concern with labels such being unhappy, a hater, or having their panties in a bunch?

Link to comment

I think the favorite voting system needs to be overhauled.

The voting should be anonymous and people should be able to either vote +1 or -1 to a cache.

I think the last thing geocaching needs is the ability to take potshots without accepting responsibility. It's a bad idea even if you think there's a problem. But I don't think there's a problem, anyway: geocachers have plenty of ways to express their appreciation or displeasure through logs, private e-mail, and talking at events. Besides, I don't like the idea of a CO that's doing something interesting being lambasted just because what he's doing doesn't happen to fit into the current community's preferences.

+1

 

This...this...THIS!

 

Having an anonymous negative vote system would just enable cache bullies or anyone to pick on another cacher or group of cachers by voting down their caches, no matter how good or bad they may be. A system that lists the names of the cachers that downvote a cache would be better, but it still would not prevent vindictive negative votes.

Link to comment
New cachers should be disallowed from, or perhaps strongly cautioned against, leaving any paper items other than a log. Also disallow bobby pins, paper clips, clothes pins, cheap marbles, money, plastic beads, mardi gras necklaces or craft junk they merely bought from Michael's Craft Store. Home made crafts are fine. Plastic dinosaurs are fine. Matchbox cars are fine. Just not those tiny foam snowflake stickers you just bought by the thousands merely to drop in every bleeping cache. If I owned the cache, I'd trash all that stuff on each maintenance run.

 

There needs to be more critical video lessons describing best practices in contrast with bad practices. Tell newbies what sucks as swag. Stop being wishy washy about it. Yes, it's a game, but a good game should demand a level of excellence from its players. Good games attract players who want to play by the rules. These kinds of changes might persuade people with very short attention spans choose a less-demanding hobby, like watching soaps.

 

Get rid of trackables. Magpies are collecting these like swag. I'm never going to pay five or ten bucks just so someone else can collect and keep my trackable. Not. Happening. Either that or make trackables unattractive to magpies.

 

I have an idea. Why don't you try to get some more time in the game and more finds under your belt before presuming to dictate how the game should be played and what swag should and should not be allowed in caches. The beauty of the game is that people have the right to choose what swag to fill caches with (within reason...no non-family friendly stuff and like items). I'm not even going to touch the trackables issue.

 

Play as you wish to play, but don't tell others that they should play like you want to play.

Edited by Arthur & Trillian
Link to comment

Having an anonymous negative vote system would just enable cache bullies or anyone to pick on another cacher or group of cachers by voting down their caches, no matter how good or bad they may be. A system that lists the names of the cachers that downvote a cache would be better, but it still would not prevent vindictive negative votes.

 

There's no good way to implement it. Anonymous down-votes would just lead to even more anger and mistrust. Attaching names to the down-votes would lead to retaliation. The game has enough negativity an in-fighting as it is without this.

Link to comment

Pie-in-the-Sky ideas and thoughts after just a few finds.

 

As a new user, I'm concerned with what I have seen so far. I'm in favor of some changes. New users should be required to find at least 100 caches to get an idea of what works before being allowed to even create a cache.

 

I may be new, but I would rather find quality caches than caches that require hazmat gloves. So far half have contained garbage crammed in with a log. One had a bullet. Two had items I regret having touched with bare hands and am loath to describe. Half the logs I've found so far have been soggy. New cache owners should be required to check their caches on a regular schedule.

 

Education is Key

New cachers should be disallowed from, or perhaps strongly cautioned against, leaving any paper items other than a log. Also disallow bobby pins, paper clips, clothes pins, cheap marbles, money, plastic beads, mardi gras necklaces or craft junk they merely bought from Michael's Craft Store. Home made crafts are fine. Plastic dinosaurs are fine. Matchbox cars are fine. Just not those tiny foam snowflake stickers you just bought by the thousands merely to drop in every bleeping cache. If I owned the cache, I'd trash all that stuff on each maintenance run.

 

There needs to be more critical video lessons describing best practices in contrast with bad practices. Tell newbies what sucks as swag. Stop being wishy washy about it. Yes, it's a game, but a good game should demand a level of excellence from its players. Good games attract players who want to play by the rules. These kinds of changes might persuade people with very short attention spans choose a less-demanding hobby, like watching soaps.

 

Get rid of trackables. Magpies are collecting these like swag. I'm never going to pay five or ten bucks just so someone else can collect and keep my trackable. Not. Happening. Either that or make trackables unattractive to magpies.

 

Maybe you should invent a new game if you're so unhappy with this one after a handful of finds.

 

It's great that you're concerned about his happiness but I didn't see anything in that post which indicated that he is unhappy.

 

He merely expressed a concern about a couple of aspects of the game. That doesn't mean that he's unhappy, hates a certain type of cache or a way of playing, or has his panties in a bunch.

 

How about addressing the merits of the concern instead of labeling the person expressing a concern with labels such being unhappy, a hater, or having their panties in a bunch?

 

I don't speculate about, or remark on, people's underwear.

Link to comment

Having an anonymous negative vote system would just enable cache bullies or anyone to pick on another cacher or group of cachers by voting down their caches, no matter how good or bad they may be. A system that lists the names of the cachers that downvote a cache would be better, but it still would not prevent vindictive negative votes.

 

There's no good way to implement it. Anonymous down-votes would just lead to even more anger and mistrust. Attaching names to the down-votes would lead to retaliation. The game has enough negativity an in-fighting as it is without this.

 

I agree. I don't think it should be implemented at all. I was just referring to the least objectionable version if it were done.

Link to comment

Having an anonymous negative vote system would just enable cache bullies or anyone to pick on another cacher or group of cachers by voting down their caches, no matter how good or bad they may be. A system that lists the names of the cachers that downvote a cache would be better, but it still would not prevent vindictive negative votes.

 

There's no good way to implement it. Anonymous down-votes would just lead to even more anger and mistrust. Attaching names to the down-votes would lead to retaliation. The game has enough negativity an in-fighting as it is without this.

 

I agree. I don't think it should be implemented at all. I was just referring to the least objectionable version if it were done.

 

Yeah, it's just terrible from any angle. There are too many people who are already ready to jump on other geocachers for the slightest thing. Down-votes would be such a mess.

Link to comment

Having an anonymous negative vote system would just enable cache bullies or anyone to pick on another cacher or group of cachers by voting down their caches, no matter how good or bad they may be. A system that lists the names of the cachers that downvote a cache would be better, but it still would not prevent vindictive negative votes.

While I agree there's a danger of abuse, I object to the more fundamental idea that it makes sense to say you don't like something without explaining why.

Link to comment

Having an anonymous negative vote system would just enable cache bullies or anyone to pick on another cacher or group of cachers by voting down their caches, no matter how good or bad they may be. A system that lists the names of the cachers that downvote a cache would be better, but it still would not prevent vindictive negative votes.

 

There's no good way to implement it. Anonymous down-votes would just lead to even more anger and mistrust. Attaching names to the down-votes would lead to retaliation. The game has enough negativity an in-fighting as it is without this.

 

I agree. I don't think it should be implemented at all. I was just referring to the least objectionable version if it were done.

 

GCVote seems to work quite well in Europe (not so popular in North America). Works best when there are a lot of people voting. Haven't read anything about negative in-fighting, retaliation, anger because of GCVote.

It would be great if Groundspeak would integrate it.

Link to comment

Having an anonymous negative vote system would just enable cache bullies or anyone to pick on another cacher or group of cachers by voting down their caches, no matter how good or bad they may be. A system that lists the names of the cachers that downvote a cache would be better, but it still would not prevent vindictive negative votes.

 

There's no good way to implement it. Anonymous down-votes would just lead to even more anger and mistrust. Attaching names to the down-votes would lead to retaliation. The game has enough negativity an in-fighting as it is without this.

 

I agree. I don't think it should be implemented at all. I was just referring to the least objectionable version if it were done.

 

GCVote seems to work quite well in Europe (not so popular in North America). Works best when there are a lot of people voting. Haven't read anything about negative in-fighting, retaliation, anger because of GCVote.

It would be great if Groundspeak would integrate it.

 

There's a world of difference between a third-party site where the keeners can go to badmouth people's geocaches, and something integrated right into Geocaching.com.

Link to comment

GCVote seems to work quite well in Europe (not so popular in North America). Works best when there are a lot of people voting. Haven't read anything about negative in-fighting, retaliation, anger because of GCVote.

It would be great if Groundspeak would integrate it.

 

I found GCVote about a very good rating mechanism as you can rate a cache gradually and not 0-1 like favorites. If widely used a GCvote rating of 3 is "average" (not very good or bad), lower ratings would (for me) mean not to go searching, 4 would be on the "to do" list and 4.5-5 would mean "must do".

It might give some CO's an incentive to not put a micro "because they can" but think about getting a "high score" before placing a cache.

Link to comment

 

I don't speculate about, or remark on, people's underwear.

 

You don't but others have. The person that used that phrase more than anyone else was banned from the forums but that's besides the point.

 

The point is that it's quite common for someone to express a concern about something and inevitably someone will write something along the lines of "it doesn't bother me, therefore you're whining about something that isn't important".

Link to comment
Maybe you should invent a new game if you're so unhappy with this one after a handful of finds.

narcissa,

I pay close attention when you've posted, because more often than not, you have something useful to say, but at times, your comments have a bitter edge that leads me to think that you might be unhappy.

 

You have strong opinions. Having strong opinions does not necessarily constitute unhappiness.

 

I'm reminded of usenet/newsgroups in the early years of Ye Olde Interwebbes. Academicians who had established newsgroups like sci.biology.lepidoptera.new were outraged when newbies posted stupid questions, didn't stay on topic, rage-posted, or generally left divots in the playing field that was Usenet. Now, people have moved on to Google Groups or Yahoo Groups or PHPBB, where they can create their own place to channel stupidity or enlightenment as they please and with whatever amount of engagement they prefer. Venues had to change to accommodate the popularity of the internet. And with great success!

 

Geocaching.com likely introduced the app to stave off imminent loss of popularity of their website. What's worse than becoming a friendster or myspace?

 

The app is geocaching.com's response to rapid change. But like Google Groups, etc., the app has also drastically changed the constituent player base by bringing in large numbers of people who are new to the game, like me. We make really stupid faux pas. Many of us have never hiked and couldn't even identify poison ivy if our lives depended on it. (I do, I can.) Many of us barely understand GPS. Some of us barely qualify as more socially-adept than our pets. Many of us are parents with children. Many of us are children. We have grand ideas that have probably been posted a thousand times before on the same forum, and as someone who had those same starry eyes years ago when you joined the game, I see reflected in your response some sense of futility at trying to make people understand that "the more things change, the more they stay the same".

 

I'm willing to have my terrible ideas shot down because they're terrible. But if they're not terrible, maybe there is a germ of usefulness that could help future gamers have a better beginning experience and make them more respectful long-term members of the caching community. So please -- rather than suggest that I go make or find another game, why not tell me why my suggestions are so terrible?

 

Chris

Link to comment
... Play as you wish to play, but don't tell others that they should play like you want to play.

Arthur and Trillian,

This is a discussion that seems to be about methods for enabling a better experience for geocachers, beginners and old-hats alike. Is your disagreement with me reason enough to endorse censorship? Why not tell me why I'm wrong with logic and reason?

 

When there weren't that many caches, it seemed like a good trade-off to let anyone create a cache so long as they followed the rules. Now there are a lot of caches and a lot more cache traffic. Trackables used to be respected. Now they're just swag for the under-educated/under-experienced. The game has changed. Why shouldn't the rules change to manage a better experience?

 

Chris

Edited by LaughterOnWater
Link to comment
Maybe you should invent a new game if you're so unhappy with this one after a handful of finds.

narcissa,

I pay close attention when you've posted, because more often than not, you have something useful to say, but at times, your comments have a bitter edge that leads me to think that you might be unhappy.

 

You have strong opinions. Having strong opinions does not necessarily constitute unhappiness.

 

I'm reminded of usenet/newsgroups in the early years of Ye Olde Interwebbes. Academicians who had established newsgroups like sci.biology.lepidoptera.new were outraged when newbies posted stupid questions, didn't stay on topic, rage-posted, or generally left divots in the playing field that was Usenet. Now, people have moved on to Google Groups or Yahoo Groups or PHPBB, where they can create their own place to channel stupidity or enlightenment as they please and with whatever amount of engagement they prefer. Venues had to change to accommodate the popularity of the internet. And with great success!

 

Geocaching.com likely introduced the app to stave off imminent loss of popularity of their website. What's worse than becoming a friendster or myspace?

 

The app is geocaching.com's response to rapid change. But like Google Groups, etc., the app has also drastically changed the constituent player base by bringing in large numbers of people who are new to the game, like me. We make really stupid faux pas. Many of us have never hiked and couldn't even identify poison ivy if our lives depended on it. (I do, I can.) Many of us barely understand GPS. Some of us barely qualify as more socially-adept than our pets. Many of us are parents with children. Many of us are children. We have grand ideas that have probably been posted a thousand times before on the same forum, and as someone who had those same starry eyes years ago when you joined the game, I see reflected in your response some sense of futility at trying to make people understand that "the more things change, the more they stay the same".

 

I'm willing to have my terrible ideas shot down because they're terrible. But if they're not terrible, maybe there is a germ of usefulness that could help future gamers have a better beginning experience and make them more respectful long-term members of the caching community. So please -- rather than suggest that I go make or find another game, why not tell me why my suggestions are so terrible?

 

Chris

I would love it if the mods would make that post a "sticky"! Thank you! I remember well one of my early forum posts here... I had the audacity to suggest that some sort of cache favorite system might be a good idea. I was bashed to the point of submissiveness over my idea, as I was reminded of how many times in the past it had been suggested, admonished for not doing forum searches first, lectured on why it would be a terrible idea. That, of course, was years before we actually had a cache favorite system.

Link to comment
New users should be required to find at least 100 caches to get an idea of what works before being allowed to even create a cache.
So an hour or two on the ET Highway grabbing fungible film canisters, and someone is ready to hide a cache? But someone who has found a dozen varied caches in varied locations isn't? And someone with only 50 caches within 50 miles has to do a lot of traveling before they can hide their first cache?

 

Find count is the wrong measure.

 

Understanding the basic principles of the guidelines might be a good measure. Some have suggested requiring new cache owners to pass a basic test on the guidelines before listing their first cache.

 

Time geocaching might be a good measure, but only to the degree that it weeds out the flash-in-the-pan newbies who find a cache on Saturday, hide a cache on Sunday, and then disappear. So maybe we could have a requirement that new cache owners' accounts be at least a couple weeks old.

 

But find count is the wrong measure.

 

New cache owners should be required to check their caches on a regular schedule.
You mean like this?

 

Owner is responsible for visits to the physical location.

 

New cachers should be disallowed from, or perhaps strongly cautioned against, leaving any paper items other than a log. Also disallow bobby pins, paper clips, clothes pins, cheap marbles, money, plastic beads, mardi gras necklaces or craft junk they merely bought from Michael's Craft Store. Home made crafts are fine. Plastic dinosaurs are fine. Matchbox cars are fine. Just not those tiny foam snowflake stickers you just bought by the thousands merely to drop in every bleeping cache. If I owned the cache, I'd trash all that stuff on each maintenance run.
You aren't the first to complain about trade items. You won't be the last.

 

And if it is genuine trash, then go ahead and CITO it. And if it's something that doesn't belong in a cache (e.g., something edible, dangerous, or illegal), then go ahead and CITO it.

 

But some people like marbles and hair clips and foreign coins and plastic beads and craft junk and other things that are essentially worthless from a monetary point of view. Some of us even trade for paper items (e.g., a number of the personal signature items in my collection are made of paper/cardboard).

 

Tell newbies what sucks as swag.
Or just let them figure it out by themselves. I trade for stuff that others consider junk. Others trade for stuff that I consider junk. Many don't trade at all, and couldn't care less.

 

Yes, it's a game, but a good game should demand a level of excellence from its players.
Once we all agree on what "excellence" means, we can figure out just who is going to demand it, and what they'll do if their demand isn't met.

 

Get rid of trackables. Magpies are collecting these like swag. I'm never going to pay five or ten bucks just so someone else can collect and keep my trackable. Not. Happening. Either that or make trackables unattractive to magpies.
Again, this is not a new complaint. And there's an art to picking something to attach a TB tag to. If the object is too attractive, then it tends to disappear. But it needs to be interesting enough to inspire interesting logs. It helps if the owner chooses an interesting TB goal, and attaches a tag that lists that TB goal. But that conversation might be more appropriate for the Trackables Subforums. (Yep, trackables have their own ghetto subforum, which is why there isn't much conversation about them here.)
Link to comment

Find count is the wrong measure.

 

Understanding the basic principles of the guidelines might be a good measure. Some have suggested requiring new cache owners to pass a basic test on the guidelines before listing their first cache.

 

Time geocaching might be a good measure, but only to the degree that it weeds out the flash-in-the-pan newbies who find a cache on Saturday, hide a cache on Sunday, and then disappear. So maybe we could have a requirement that new cache owners' accounts be at least a couple weeks old.

 

Having found different types of caches is also a plus before hiding your own. New cachers who have only found a few (even 100-200) easy traditionals are bound to hide caches like the ones they found themselves.

 

Looking at people's stats I see 90/95% and even 100% traditionals. Having found some multi's, solve a few mysteries or finding more challenging traditionals would at least widen new cacher's view on what's it all about.

Edited by on4bam
Link to comment

 

I don't speculate about, or remark on, people's underwear.

 

You don't but others have. The person that used that phrase more than anyone else was banned from the forums but that's besides the point.

 

The point is that it's quite common for someone to express a concern about something and inevitably someone will write something along the lines of "it doesn't bother me, therefore you're whining about something that isn't important".

 

Yes, complaints and gripes about unimportant things are common and we all have our pet peeves.

 

There's a difference between venting a little frustration over something unimportant, and declaring that the entire game needs an overhaul to rid itself of the lying, cheating litterbugs.

 

What it has to do with men wearing women's underwear, I don't know.

Link to comment

New users should be required to find at least 100 caches to get an idea of what works before being allowed to even create a cache.

 

If you live in or can easily travel to a relatively cache dense area it's fairly easy for someone to get 100 finds, but, if most of them are on a power trail they're not going to have a breadth of experience for different cache types.

 

There are 246 distinct countries/territories in the official GS countries list. In 154 of those countries there are fewer than 100 total caches in the entire country. Unless the residents of these countries travel outside their border it would effectively make it impossible for someone in that country to create a new cache.

 

Requiring a minimum number of finds before someone is able to create a cache would essentially make it very difficult to create new caches in areas which could actually use more caches, but would be very easy for someone living in any area already saturated with tons of caches.

 

 

Link to comment
Get rid of trackables. Magpies are collecting these like swag. I'm never going to pay five or ten bucks just so someone else can collect and keep my trackable. Not. Happening. Either that or make trackables unattractive to magpies.
Again, this is not a new complaint. And there's an art to picking something to attach a TB tag to. If the object is too attractive, then it tends to disappear. But it needs to be interesting enough to inspire interesting logs. It helps if the owner chooses an interesting TB goal, and attaches a tag that lists that TB goal. But that conversation might be more appropriate for the Trackables Subforums. (Yep, trackables have their own ghetto subforum, which is why there isn't much conversation about them here.)

One thing with Trackables, as with many Geocaching issues, is there seems to be a less obvious, less traveled road available. With TB's, the different way, within the control of the Trackable Owner is: Make your TB as nice as you wish, and keep your TB. Keep it especially close at hand while at an Event :ph34r:. The most common idea is to cast the it into the wind by dropping it in a cache. Keep it, and you avoid magpies. There are many creative ways to use the Tracking number besides dropping it.

 

trackables have their own ghetto subforum

Heh :D

Edited by kunarion
Link to comment
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
Followers 6
×
×
  • Create New...