Barely non-commercial caches annoy me

[+Sapper 1-6]

From my understanding of cache placement guidelines, caches simply can't OVERTLY promote a business (or cause, etc). One of my pet peeves is driving to find a cache that, based on the description, seems innocent enough. But then I drive up and it's literally right in front of a business. Ironically, the guidelines have been followed perfectly, making it even more annoying that now I have to awkwardly walk up to a random business and try to discreetly search for the cache.

Some might think this isn't a big deal, but my example is one that led me to the bushes right in front of a big car dealership near where I live. To find it you literally have to park, walk up a staircase, and search in front of those huge windows of a car dealership, for both the dealership, customers, and passersby to see.

I know I'm nitpicking but heck, it's a forum right? Haha.

Just annoys me when caches are placed so awkwardly at the front of a business.

[+T.D.M.22]

Then don't look for those caches. Plenty of caches placed in areas where there's no muggle to be seen for miles.

[+cerberus1]

From my understanding of cache placement guidelines, caches simply can't OVERTLY promote a business (or cause, etc). One of my pet peeves is driving to find a cache that, based on the description, seems innocent enough. But then I drive up and it's literally right in front of a business. Ironically, the guidelines have been followed perfectly, making it even more annoying that now I have to awkwardly walk up to a random business and try to discreetly search for the cache.

Some might think this isn't a big deal, but my example is one that led me to the bushes right in front of a big car dealership near where I live. To find it you literally have to park, walk up a staircase, and search in front of those huge windows of a car dealership, for both the dealership, customers, and passersby to see.

I know I'm nitpicking but heck, it's a forum right? Haha.

Just annoys me when caches are placed so awkwardly at the front of a business.

Sorry, but I'm not understanding why you feel you have to go after any of those hides.

If the placement's awful, ignore 'em.

[+wmpastor]

Then don't look for those caches. Plenty of caches placed in areas where there's no muggle to be seen for miles.

 

Right. Usually a map will tell you what the layout is, and you can check the satellite photo to be sure.

 

I wanted to get one cache in front of a business, and went there when the business was closed.

[+GrateBear]

What makes you think they were placed to promote a business? Sounds to me more like "how can I make this a more difficult cache to find?" Place it where there are a lot of people, and the finders need to figure out how best to get it. I don't care for these myself, but I don't see them as any type of promotion.

[+geodarts]

At some point I realized that I did not have to get a nano, hidden in a private shopping center, on landscape trellis in the central walkway, directly in front of the large windows of at least three businesses. So I walked away, muttering something to myself about permission, landscaping, nanos, and what had become of the game. The cache actually served an important function, as a type of wake up call for me.

 

So if you find yourself taken to bushes in front of large windows of a dealership you could question whether you want to do it, ask if it had been placed with permission, or assume that it was (we all follow the guidelines) and be as obvious as you need to be to make the find,

[+dprovan]

I admit I'd likely be inclined to just skip it, but if I felt like looking for it, I'd go at it with the assumption that the business knows all about it, so there's no reason to hide what I'm doing from them, and that they're watching over it, so there's no reason to hide what I'm doing from anyone else. If I'm wrong and it was hidden there without the businesses knowledge or permission, then I'm not too worried if I compromise it.

 

On the commercial aspect, if the CO hid it there to lead me to the business, I just shrug: I don't need to go into the business just because there's a cache out front.

[+Bigmada]

On the commercial aspect, if the CO hid it there to lead me to the business, I just shrug: I don't need to go into the business just because there's a cache out front.

 

This is how I find food on my caching road trips.

I've had a lot of great food because someone placed a cache outside a little diner or restaurant.

[+Roman!]

Go after hours, problem solved.

[+JL_HSTRE]

I hope the CO has permission from the car dealer!

[+Gitchee-Gummee]

...search in front of those huge windows of a car dealership, for both the dealership, customers, and passersby to see.

There comes a time when you must make your own judgement call.

 

This CO may well be in concert with the dealership personnel, and is "using" you as entertainment for the enjoyment of those working within the establishment.

 

They may well have a running pool regarding the length of time it takes people 1] to work up the nerve to decide make the attempt; 2] see if you in fact have the where-with-all to make the find; and 3] how long it takes to make the find itself.

 

Don't feel like being used or put on display? Go elsewhere and think about making additions to your "Ignore" list.

Now, if you don't mind being their clown, then go for it!

 

Your decision.

[+Michaelcycle]

Go after hours, problem solved.

 

No, it is not. Many of the large dealerships in our area have:

 

1. off hours security on site

2. 24 hour security cameras

 

Even if the CO has permission it is unlikely that everyone on the staff of the security company that might draw that assignment on any given day will be aware of said permission.

 

For me, the question is why put a cache in such a place? I see a few reasons given in this thread (increase the difficulty of the find, amusement of the staff, etc.) None of them seem compelling. I have seen the argument that "you don't have to hunt them if you don't like them" over and over. That "justification" does not address the issue that these types of hides tend to hurt rather than help the acceptance of geocaching.

[+on4bam]

I've also seen listings of caches that "annoy me". Guess what? I don't do them en let others who are not annoyed by them go find them. It would only annoy me if it was the only cache available to me but I guess this is not the case. Stop being annoyed and go out doing caches you like, it's better for your mental health and blood pressure anyway.

geocaching is done for fun, not to be annoyed.

[+SwineFlew]

I know a virtual on a dealership property. They love it and gave me a paper about the topic. I am sure they know many of us arent going to be buying cars or trucks from them. It was funny that they knew I wasn't there to buy a new car.

[+Path Pacer]

In small towns, businesses become part of the community. They often support local events and people consider them part of the flavor of the place. A cache may be placed there just because the locals like it. I'm not sure that would apply to a town big enough to have a car dealership though.

[+dprovan]

On the commercial aspect, if the CO hid it there to lead me to the business, I just shrug: I don't need to go into the business just because there's a cache out front.

This is how I find food on my caching road trips.

I've had a lot of great food because someone placed a cache outside a little diner or restaurant.

For sure! That's one of the reasons I don't want anyone to discourage the practice. But, still, it's my choice whether I get lunch there or not, I don't owe it to the place just because they've allowed a cache there.

 

For me, the question is why put a cache in such a place?

For me, the question is why not put a cache in such a place? I'll accept a valid answer, of course -- no permission would make sense in this case, for example -- but if there are no such reasons, then why not? In particular, I'm only uncomfortable about being detected if I think it would be my fault if I was detected. If the cache is clearly placed where there's going to be an extreme muggle problem, I'll try to be discreet, but in the final analysis, it's the CO that took the risk, so there's no need for me to be embarrassed when I'm seen searching.

 

In small towns, businesses become part of the community. They often support local events and people consider them part of the flavor of the place. A cache may be placed there just because the locals like it. I'm not sure that would apply to a town big enough to have a car dealership though.

A year or two ago, someone got many businesses up and down Long Beach Island in New Jersey to allow caches around them, in many cases directly on the premises. We enjoyed finding them a great deal, and the proprietors we encountered all seemed to be enjoying the fun, too. Based on the fact that the cache name posted didn't always match the cache name on the log, one problem was that some of the caches crossed the line to be commercials for the businesses, so the caches needed to be renamed before they could be published, but the businesses didn't seem upset about it.

[knowschad]

From my understanding of cache placement guidelines, caches simply can't OVERTLY promote a business (or cause, etc). One of my pet peeves is driving to find a cache that, based on the description, seems innocent enough. But then I drive up and it's literally right in front of a business. Ironically, the guidelines have been followed perfectly, making it even more annoying that now I have to awkwardly walk up to a random business and try to discreetly search for the cache.

Some might think this isn't a big deal, but my example is one that led me to the bushes right in front of a big car dealership near where I live. To find it you literally have to park, walk up a staircase, and search in front of those huge windows of a car dealership, for both the dealership, customers, and passersby to see.

I know I'm nitpicking but heck, it's a forum right? Haha.

Just annoys me when caches are placed so awkwardly at the front of a business.

 

Despite all the posts telling you to "just ignore them", I hear you, loud and clear. My question is "why?" Not why should I look for it, but why did someone place one there? The answer is, "because they can" and because that's where the game has gone. Some of us aren't happy that it has, but there isn't much we can do about it. Sorry.

[+narcissa]

Hides like that are lame but the worst part about them is that they are so often placed without permission that even when you do decide it's worth looking for, there's a good chance you'll get a paddlin' from the business proprietor. It's all fine and dandy to tell people to avoid hides they don't like but we should all be wary of hides that inadvertently make cachers into trespassers.

Edited May 4, 2015 by narcissa

[+on4bam]

Despite all the posts telling you to "just ignore them", I hear you, loud and clear. My question is "why?" Not why should I look for it, but why did someone place one there? The answer is, "because they can" and because that's where the game has gone. Some of us aren't happy that it has, but there isn't much we can do about it. Sorry.

 

GS approved fully commercial caches (at least) once world wide (reviewer "missjenn). They were blatant publicity for Ti*****d boots so finding a cache "near/in front" of a business is hardly commercial.

Edited May 4, 2015 by on4bam

[knowschad]

Despite all the posts telling you to "just ignore them", I hear you, loud and clear. My question is "why?" Not why should I look for it, but why did someone place one there? The answer is, "because they can" and because that's where the game has gone. Some of us aren't happy that it has, but there isn't much we can do about it. Sorry.

 

GS approved fully commercial caches (at least) once world wide (reviewer "missjenn). They were blatant publicity for Ti*****d boots so finding a cache "near/in front" of a business is hardly commercial.

 

For that matter, the APE caches were commercial, as are many, if not most, of the GeoTours.

 

I agree that the use of the word "commercial" in this topic is a bit misleading, but the meaning becomes pretty clear upon reading the original post.

 

(By the way, I think you're safe to spell out the word "Timberland")

[Keystone]

Discussions of approved Groundspeak promotions, like Timberland and Project APE, are off topic to this thread. The cache at issue here is not stated to be part of a branded promotion. For that matter, it was stated that no overt commercial content was present on the page.

[+on4bam]

(By the way, I think you're safe to spell out the word "T*****d")

 

I didn't want too as I disapproved (and avoided) these purely commercial caches.

 

@Keystone why was my original post mentioning these caches deleted?

@Keystone (2) I think there is/was no problem with the cache from the OP (as I understand, there are a lot of parkinglot caches near K-*** in the US, so that looks the same).

[+J Grouchy]

When I first saw the topic, I immediately thought of this cache. There's really no mistaking that one or what it's all about.

 

As for the ACTUAL discussion...yeah, it's annoying when they force you to look out in a very exposed location. Best advice I can give is just look like you're supposed to be there. More often than not people won't even care what you are doing. How often do you observe what others are doing?...and even if you, how often do you actually CARE what they are doing?

[+Zepp914]

I actually like these caches. Normally when on a trip, I look for the ones near restaurants and ice cream parlors. It is better than yelp for finding good places to stop.

[+PlantAKiss]

Just annoys me when caches are placed so awkwardly at the front of a business.

 

A little while back I had an epiphany. I decided there was no one but myself making me go look for caches I find uncomfortable to hunt for--caches (usually micros) in very public, high muggle areas. I hate those caches--they make me feel exposed, awkward and guilty. Now that's just ME. Other people don't mind in the least raising a LP skirt in front of hordes of people or searching in front of a glass storefront. So now if I know ahead of time if a cache is mugglicious, I ignore it. If I get there and find it's mugglicious, I just leave. I no longer feel like I HAVE to find a cache just because it's there. I'll make a judgement if I can git 'er done without feeling uncomfortable, if so, I'll hunt. It's about having fun geocaching. So now it's even more fun because I ignore what are often thoughtless cache hides in leaky containers in public places with no real purpose other than "for your numbers."

[+bflentje]

I hope the CO has permission from the car dealer!

 

I found a cache in front of the GM dealer and ended up driving away in a new Silverado. Darn cache owners.. I tell ya.

[+cheech gang]

I hope the CO has permission from the car dealer!

 

I found a cache in front of the GM dealer and ended up driving away in a new Silverado. Darn cache owners.. I tell ya.

Did you trade up or trade even?

[+bflentje]

I hope the CO has permission from the car dealer!

 

I found a cache in front of the GM dealer and ended up driving away in a new Silverado. Darn cache owners.. I tell ya.

Did you trade up or trade even?

 

Traded up of course.

[+Trotter17]

I'm in a fairly small town and have placed a few of my caches at local businesses. In all honesty I'd rather find a cache at an interesting local business than in a random light pole, guardrail, or cluster of bushes (not trying to bash those hides; just stating a preference). Yes, I love adventuresome caches that require hiking, climbing, and crawling, but I also love exploring new cities and towns. I have discovered many great places to eat, shop, and visit through caching. I find that cachers are generally pretty in touch with their communities and often know the cool places about their town which they want to celebrate. Every location speaks and tells a story and might be more suitable for certain cachers. I've also found that many small business owners are typically rather easy to work with. When you work with a small or local business it's usually rather easy to find out who is in charge and who permission needs to be secured through in order to gain permission to place a hide.

 

Of course, many of the geotrails I know of have been organized by city councils in order to promote tourism in their region. Obviously, tourism dollars are part of the reason why cities and towns support these efforts. If geocaching does nothing for a city, county, land manager, or parks department, then what purpose will they have for working with cachers? I get that the intention is not to have a massive company sponsor a cache at every one of their stores but, if we can work with a cool local business owner or manager to ethically place a cache at somewhere that could be interesting for cachers exporing a city or town, why is that a bad thing?

 

Of course, i sounds like the OP was concerned about permission. Maybe we just need to be more clear that permission has been obtained on the cache page.

[+zookeepertx]

I would be wondering how the cache passed review in a case like that! A few months ago, I tried to place 3 caches on the very outskirts of a really nice, pretty RV Park that has a mini-golf course, pond with a sprayer in the middle and a scenic bridge over it, community center building, etc. 1 was on the fence and could just as easily have been found from outside the property, 1 would have been a few feet outside the fence, 1 would have been outside the occupied area of the park (out in front of the building and not even visible from most of the park). My reviewer denied it even though the park name was not mentioned, no mention was made of patronizing the business (exactly how DOES one convince mostly local cachers to patronize an RV Park??), and there was no interaction needed with employees or anyone else!

 

So, I'm not sure how some caches pass muster when other, fairly innocuous ones can't be published. The one you're talking about seems to me to not be all that "barely" non-commercial in comparison; your example sounds a lot more blatant!

Edited May 6, 2015 by zookeepertx

[+zookeepertx]

When I posted a few minutes ago, I hadn't read the entire topic; now that I have, I find myself REALLY annoyed again over my situation earlier this year. People on this topic keep saying to just ignore the caches on commercial property and that you don't HAVE to search for them and acting as if being muggled is the problem.

 

But those aren't the problems that were in play on the caches I had planned! I was told that mine were commercial and/or promoting a business, so they were denied outright, strictly on that basis! This is the topic I'm referring to: http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=328666&st=50&p=5490720&fromsearch=1entry5490720

 

This seems like complete inconsistency in following the rules! I'm with the OP on this one!

 

Well, now I'm totally ticked off again.

Edited May 6, 2015 by zookeepertx

[+Seaglass Pirates]

We had a TB trapped I a TB hotel in Germany and it was there for I think it was two months.

 

The main cache was in a stationary shop. In the actual shop. And to access it you had to ask the counter clerk to open it for you. She would then only allow you to take a TB if you left a TB. So that's two rules broken. And if the shop was shut ... not to worry you could sign the other satelite log 100 feet down the road. I was told at the time it was a disgrace ... the cache owner was polite but their reply was "well I can't make people choose to swap for your TB so till then it's stuck", and the forum although supportive said pretty much "meh that's Europe for you".

 

There is one not far away that's in a business. We did one in Scotland that is inside the shop. We did one inside a museum on the Isle of Wight.

 

When it's inside an establishment I think it's breaking the rules. When it's tucked out of sight on the outside of an establishment I think it's fine. We've done a few security cameras on people's front door steps before now. Horrible cringy toe curling things. Cache size other no other clue but the title. Horrific but also funny.

[+on4bam]

When it's inside an establishment I think it's breaking the rules.

 

I've found quiet a few caches inside an establishment. I remember one in a cafe (had icecream there on a warm day while logging and exchanging TBs, box was huge), another was logged in another cafe (final of a city multi), one in a gas station/shop is Australia (the TB dropped there has gone missing) and there are others.

Best one was in the waiting room of a policestation right in view of the security camera. Cache was an empty routerbox 2m high on the wall.

[+The_Roots]

From my understanding of cache placement guidelines, caches simply can't OVERTLY promote a business (or cause, etc). One of my pet peeves is driving to find a cache that, based on the description, seems innocent enough. But then I drive up and it's literally right in front of a business. Ironically, the guidelines have been followed perfectly, making it even more annoying that now I have to awkwardly walk up to a random business and try to discreetly search for the cache.

Some might think this isn't a big deal, but my example is one that led me to the bushes right in front of a big car dealership near where I live. To find it you literally have to park, walk up a staircase, and search in front of those huge windows of a car dealership, for both the dealership, customers, and passersby to see.

I know I'm nitpicking but heck, it's a forum right? Haha.

Just annoys me when caches are placed so awkwardly at the front of a business.

 

I own a cache in front of my work. It's in full view of my front windows. It's appropriate for the spot. With mine however, you barely need to enter the lot to retrieve. You can park on the street and take three steps to the bush. I get to be be amused watching people search for it. My whole office knows its there and we all enjoy watching people come look for it.

 

Sometimes a cache type just isn't for you and you have to make peace with not being able or willing to find them all.

[+Trotter17]

I had an interesting weekend. On a short road trip with my family I had the opportunity to cache in 5 different states and was surprised by the amount of variation I saw in how commercial caches were labeled. A few weeks ago I had to work with my local reviewer to make sure a cache I placed near a local business wasn't overly commercial because I made reference to the revitalization of my city's uptown business district. While traveling, though, I saw caches that specifically mentioned businesses by name (in the title), caches that talked about businesses and their products, and caches that never even mentioned they were near businesses. It was interesting to see how varied the placements were in different areas and at different periods in time.

[+Wadcutter]

There use to be a cache nearby that was at a winery. The cache was hidden in the winery's outdoor party area. The area was fenced so the only way to get to the cache was thru the winery sales area and only when the winery was open. The CO was one of the winery owners. In the cache description they had included a note to be sure to pick up a bottle of their wine. Some complained this was a commercial cache. The reviewer disagreed saying no one forced you to buy anything therefore it wasn't a commercial cache. His view for what made a commercial cache was if you were forced to buy something.

The winery didn't stay open long and went out of business.

Edited May 12, 2015 by Wadcutter

[+narcissa]

There use to be a cache nearby that was at a winery. The cache was hidden in the winery's outdoor party area. The area was fenced so the only way to get to the cache was thru the winery sales area and only when the winery was open. The CO was one of the winery owners. In the cache description they had included a note to be sure to pick up a bottle of their wine. Some complained this was a commercial cache. The reviewer disagreed saying no one forced you to buy anything therefore it wasn't a commercial cache. His view for what made a commercial cache was if you were forced to buy something.

The winery didn't stay open long and went out of business.

 

That seems like a very obvious guideline violation and I have a very hard time believing a reviewer would actually let that fly.

[+K13]

Some reviewers are dogs....

 

 

some may enjoy wine.

[+Wadcutter]

That seems like a very obvious guideline violation and I have a very hard time believing a reviewer would actually let that fly.

There were several of us who believed it to be an obvious commercial cache and posted NAs. The reviewer disagreed.

Some reviewers aren't as bright as others. Remember there's no intelligence test or background check to become a reviewer.

[+ArtieD]

Some reviewers aren't as bright as others. Remember there's no intelligence test or background check to become a reviewer.

 

Ouch. That's pretty harsh...and rude.

[+Wadcutter]

Some reviewers aren't as bright as others. Remember there's no intelligence test or background check to become a reviewer.

 

Ouch. That's pretty harsh...and rude.

Oh my! I'm so sorry you're offended. How am I going to be able to sleep at night.

Guess you haven't dealt with very many reviewers. Most are good. Some very poor.

[knowschad]

I had an interesting weekend. On a short road trip with my family I had the opportunity to cache in 5 different states and was surprised by the amount of variation I saw in how commercial caches were labeled. A few weeks ago I had to work with my local reviewer to make sure a cache I placed near a local business wasn't overly commercial because I made reference to the revitalization of my city's uptown business district. While traveling, though, I saw caches that specifically mentioned businesses by name (in the title), caches that talked about businesses and their products, and caches that never even mentioned they were near businesses. It was interesting to see how varied the placements were in different areas and at different periods in time.

 

I think that "used to be" is a key phrase there. The commercial guidelines have changed and re-interpreted many times over the years that I've been caching.

[knowschad]

Some reviewers aren't as bright as others. Remember there's no intelligence test or background check to become a reviewer.

 

Ouch. That's pretty harsh...and rude.

Oh my! I'm so sorry you're offended. How am I going to be able to sleep at night.

Guess you haven't dealt with very many reviewers. Most are good. Some very poor.

 

He didn't say that he was offended. He said that your statement was rude. And I agree.

[+ArtieD]

Some reviewers aren't as bright as others. Remember there's no intelligence test or background check to become a reviewer.

 

Ouch. That's pretty harsh...and rude.

Oh my! I'm so sorry you're offended. How am I going to be able to sleep at night.

Guess you haven't dealt with very many reviewers. Most are good. Some very poor.

 

Look, you can be rude all you want, I suppose, if that makes you feel better. However, I stand by my words...there's no reason to insult them like that. You may have your differences with them, but it does not make them stupid.

[+ArtieD]

I just want to add that seeing where Wadcutter is located, I know the reviewers that tend to handle that area. I have met two of them and they are really great, knowledgeable and intelligent folks.

[+Wadcutter]

He didn't say that he was offended. He said that your statement was rude. And I agree.

 

Look, you can be rude all you want, I suppose, if that makes you feel better. However, I stand by my words...there's no reason to insult them like that. You may have your differences with them, but it does not make them stupid.

 

(snif, snif) Boo hoo! I think both your responses are rude. So there!

So you don't think some reviewers aren't all that bright?

Get a life.

[+ArtieD]

He didn't say that he was offended. He said that your statement was rude. And I agree.

 

Look, you can be rude all you want, I suppose, if that makes you feel better. However, I stand by my words...there's no reason to insult them like that. You may have your differences with them, but it does not make them stupid.

 

(snif, snif) Boo hoo! I think both your responses are rude. So there!

So you don't think some reviewers aren't all that bright?

Get a life.

 

What is your issue? Have you had caches not get published due to guideline violations or something? Why do you insist on calling people stupid?

[+Wadcutter]

Why don't you follow the discussion in this thread. I gave an example of an obvious commercial cache. It was reported by several as being a commercial cache but a reviewer was adamant it wasn't a commercial cache because he said it wasn't. Then someone commented they couldn't see how a reviewer would let the commercial cache 'fly'. Obviously the reviewer was unable to understand what was pretty obvious. For your further edification I did not name the reviewer, or any reviewer, by name.

So who's the rude ones? I simply pointed out an obvious. I never identified anyone. You and knowschad tho are the ones to first call another identied cacher names. so are 2 rude? Actually more than that. You're the ones violating the forum rules. Read them before you start calling people names.

If you don't like it then don't click on this thread. No one is forcing you to read this thread. Sorry you're so upset over it. Maybe you need to get a real life. Find something important in your life to be upset about.

[+ArtieD]

Why don't you follow the discussion in this thread. I gave an example of an obvious commercial cache. It was reported by several as being a commercial cache but a reviewer was adamant it wasn't a commercial cache because he said it wasn't. Then someone commented they couldn't see how a reviewer would let the commercial cache 'fly'.

 

If the reviewer determined that it wasn't commercial, then the reviewer didn't think it was commercial. If you disagree with a reviewer, then talk to the Lily Pad. Their feeling that it's not commercial does not mean thhat they are stupid as you seem to like to imply.

 

Obviously the reviewer was unable to understand what was pretty obvious. For your further edification I did not name the reviewer, or any reviewer, by name.

 

Or, perhaps, they knew quite well, maybe even were privy to information you did not have and made their best judgement call. Again, it does not make them stupid.

 

So who's the rude ones? I simply pointed out an obvious. I never identified anyone.

 

There is nothing obvious, other than your apparent disdain for a reviewer.

 

You and knowschad tho are the ones to first call another identied cacher names. so are 2 rude? Actually more than that. You're the ones violating the forum rules. Read them before you start calling people names.

 

Please point out where knowschad or I violated forum guidelines. I simply said you were being rude. That is not name calling. It is, as you like to say, pointing out what's obvious. You were being rude. You were calling people stupid. That, sir, is in violation of forum guidelines.

 

If you don't like it then don't click on this thread. No one is forcing you to read this thread. Sorry you're so upset over it. Maybe you need to get a real life. Find something important in your life to be upset about.

 

Actually, I am not upset about it. I just find it odd and disheartening that you would resort to calling people stupid, especially reviewers, who are almost always very knowledgeable and respected members of the caching community.

[+BruceS]

This thread is not about the intelligence of reviewers. It is about borderline commercial caches. There have been some quite rude comments made and that is not acceptable. Time to get back on topic.