+olbluesguy Posted February 3, 2003 Share Posted February 3, 2003 http://sites.state.pa.us/PA_Exec/PGC/newsroom/2002/nr028-02.htm Quote Link to comment
Naturphocus Posted February 4, 2003 Share Posted February 4, 2003 I read that from top to bottom. I am not sure if I seen anything that truely affects this sport. Maybe I just missed it or did not understand it correctly. Quote Link to comment
+Salvelinus Posted February 4, 2003 Share Posted February 4, 2003 This was brought up before. What in the new regs bothers or concerns you? Nothing in them concerns me. Salvelinus "The trail will be long and full of frustrations. Life is a whole and good and evil must be accepted together" Ralph Abele Quote Link to comment
+olbluesguy Posted February 4, 2003 Author Share Posted February 4, 2003 If you mt. bike,or horseback ride you will only be able to use designated trails,no more going Where you please. I understand there are a lot of Geocachers that use Mountain bikes as part of their geocaching experiance,and it might effect them. OBG. Quote Link to comment
+benjamin921 Posted February 4, 2003 Share Posted February 4, 2003 quote:Originally posted by OlBluesguy:If you mt. bike,or horseback ride you will only be able to use designated trails,no more going Where you please. I understand there are a lot of Geocachers that use Mountain bikes as part of their geocaching experiance,and it might effect them. OBG. I think that would be just during hunting season if I am reading that correctly. Quote Link to comment
Team BLT n E Posted February 4, 2003 Share Posted February 4, 2003 I think you are reading it wrong. This release is worded a little different than the first one and it has been pretty clear in the meeting minutes. If I understand it correctly, outside the hunting season (Sept-Jan, Apr-May) bikes and horses will only be allowed on certain trails that the game comission designates for that purpose. During the hunting season, Neither will be permitted on any trail except on Sundays. It has become an issue on a lot of state game lands and the trails are now rutted from the bikes and horses. Bigger issue is the disturbance of the woods during the hunting season which is a sure-fire way to get everything banned other than hunting. Caching has the potential to fall under the following clause but it is not clear. "No one may use State Game Lands for personal, organization or commercial purposes other than the intended uses." The actions of the few can spoil it for the masses. Quote Link to comment
+edscott Posted February 5, 2003 Share Posted February 5, 2003 From my perspective of working with the game commission in organizing orienteering events on gamelands, they are very easy to work with as long as the main hunting seasons are avoided and environmental impact is minimal. edscott Quote Link to comment
+Salvelinus Posted February 5, 2003 Share Posted February 5, 2003 Originally posted by Team BLT:Caching has the potential to fall under the following clause but it is not clear. "No one may use State Game Lands for personal, organization or commercial purposes other than the intended uses." QUOTE] Yes, and so can hiking, fishing, orienteering, etc...but that is not the intent of the regulations. This amended final rulemaking is almost identical to the previous one. There is NOTHING in there preventing geocaching activities from occurring on SGL's. Don't make things an issue before they become one. I am employed with their sister agency (the one that manages the fish) and I can assure you that they do not want to regulate other activities on their property as long as they are not causing problems with the intended uses of the property. Neither would the agency I work for. But if you make it an issue for them...the will regulate it. Hiking around and looking for containers of trinkets does not go against the intended uses. But if your doing it while riding on horseback or riding your mountain bike off trail, then expect to be regulated on SGL's. But don't try to tie those activites directly to geocaching. Just use your heads on SGL's. Its a priviledge that your able to use these areas that are directly paid for by hunters, not by the general taxpayer, for the protection and propagation of wildlife and wildlife habitats. Leave no traces that you were even there, and everything will be fine. Salvelinus "The trail will be long and full of frustrations. Life is a whole and good and evil must be accepted together" Ralph Abele [This message was edited by Salvelinus on February 05, 2003 at 07:50 PM.] Quote Link to comment
+Quest Master Posted February 5, 2003 Share Posted February 5, 2003 I'm really glad that this thread was started for the reason that it will make just a few more geocachers aware of the regulations that we should abide by when geocaching on state gamelands. In my opinion, there is nothing here that we can't deal with. The rules and regulations governing the area in which a cache is hidden are just another obstacle which must be overcome to get to a cache. It's all part of the game. I'm going to add the relevant regs (i.e. no mountain biking or horseback riding except on designated routes, no moutain biking or horseback riding during hunting season except on Sundays, must wear orange during hunting season, etc.) to my cache description pages for my hides in Pennsylvania state gamelands. I hope that other responsible cache owners will consider doing the same. Johnny Quote Link to comment
enfanta Posted February 6, 2003 Share Posted February 6, 2003 I stopped to read one of their "Thou Shalt Not" signs when I was considering setting a cache on State Game Lands. I thought I read something about not leaving anything behind: that might be construed as prohibiting caching on SGL. HOWEVER. The point has been made before and is worth making again that many agencies are willing to not look too closely at caching as long as we don't draw attention to ourselves. In this instance that means wearing our orange when we're supposed to and not spooking the game. Should be easy enough. X is for X, and X marks the spot, On the rug in the parlor, The sand in the lot, Where once you were standing, And now you are not. Quote Link to comment
+MissJenn Posted March 29, 2003 Share Posted March 29, 2003 Last week, I called MiddleCreek Wildlife Management Area in the Lancaster / Lebanon PA areas. I wanted to ask permission to place a cache on their land (which is SGL) and was told a firm "no" - and the reason I was given was that cachers typically do not stay on the trails and this is not preferred at MiddleCreek. Any cache would be considered abandoned property, and would be disposed of. Hunters don't stay on the trails either! However, I do understand that hunters pay for the SGLs with their license fees and all, and I contribute nothing to that entity, so I can't complain too much. I asked about Virtual Caches ON the trail, and I was indeed given permission to do this. Wheee! A small victory. (Now, upon reading this, if someone puts a virtual at MiddleCreek before I get around to doing mine, I'm gonna hunt them down and kill 'em! ) ----- You must be present to win. Quote Link to comment
+Rich in NEPA Posted March 30, 2003 Share Posted March 30, 2003 quote:Originally posted by MissJenn: (Now, upon reading this, if someone puts a virtual at MiddleCreek before I get around to doing mine, I'm gonna hunt them down and kill 'em!) MJ, just make sure you get a PA hunting license first. OK?! (BTW, I purchase a hunting license every year even though I don't typically do much hunting. So, essentially I am a "part owner" in those SGL's. Another thing, if I'm not mistaken, a substantial percentage of the sales of certain sporting goods in PA goes to the PA Game Commission. You may be a part owner, as well, and don't even know it. Truth is, the PA Game Commission has gotten way out of control. They are an entity entirely on their own and are accountable to no one. This has to change. They must be reeled in to the State Legislative system where the public can have a say in matters like this. As a mountain biker I am particularly effected in a negative way by the new regulations. Most Geocachers don't give a rat's a$$ about this, but be forewarned ... this is only the first step, and your experience with Middlecreek is only a sample.) Cheers ... ~Rich in NEPA~ --- A man with a GPS receiver knows where he is; a man with two GPS receivers is never sure. --- Quote Link to comment
+MissJenn Posted March 30, 2003 Share Posted March 30, 2003 quote:MJ, just make sure you get a PA hunting license first. OK?! LOL ----- You must be present to win. Quote Link to comment
+rock33 Posted March 31, 2003 Share Posted March 31, 2003 Rich “the substantial percentage of the sales of certain sporting goods” you are referring to is called the Pittman-Robertson Act. It is a Federal not a State program enacted by Congress on September 2, 1937. Funds are derived from an 11 percent Federal excise tax on sporting arms, ammunition, and archery equipment, and a 10 percent tax on handguns sold in the the United States. The funds are collected from the manufacturers by the Department of the Treasury and are apportioned each year to the States by the Department of the Interior on the basis of formulas set forth in the Act. Appropriate State agencies are the only entities eligible to receive grant funds. Funds for hunter education and target ranges are derived from one-half of the tax on handguns and archery equipment. Each state's portion is determined by a formula which considers the total area of the state and the number of licensed hunters in the state. The program is a cost-reimbursement program, where the state covers the full amount of an approved project then applies for reimbursement through Federal Aid for up to 75 percent of the project expenses. The state must provide at least 25 percent of the project costs from a non-federal source. The commission is eligible for 75 percent reimbursement of expenditures made for approved game lands habitat improvement and maintenance projects. The Game Commission's apportionment during federal fiscal year 2001 was $7,047,696 Also, even though the Game Commission is “entity entirely on their own” the State Legislators vote on the bills that are introduced by the commission. Quote Link to comment
+Rich in NEPA Posted March 31, 2003 Share Posted March 31, 2003 quote:Originally posted by rock33:Rich “the substantial percentage of the sales of certain sporting goods” you are referring to is called the Pittman-Robertson Act. It is a Federal not a State program enacted by Congress on September 2, 1937. Thanks for the info. I didn't quite know the details of the tax, only that it exists and that the Game Commission supposedly uses it in the procurement of lands. I think one important point is that not everyone who purchases arms, ammunition, etc. is a hunter although, no doubt, the majority are. I wouldn't be surprised if PA also got a fairly large chunk of those funds because of the number of hunters in this State. quote:Also, even though the Game Commission is “entity entirely on their own” the State Legislators vote on the bills that are introduced by the commission. Do you know if the new regulations were subject to legislative vote? My understanding is that they weren't. The mountain biking community was rather upset about the changes but no mention was ever made about contacting State representives to vote against them. I suppose that in order to ride the SGL trails during the hunting season this year I'll have to carry a shotgun or rifle with me! Actually, I've found that approaching game on my bike is a very effective way to get very close to it. I've ridden right up to flocks of turkeys and they hardly batted an eye. Cheers ... ~Rich in NEPA~ --- A man with a GPS receiver knows where he is; a man with two GPS receivers is never sure. --- Quote Link to comment
The Buzzard's Posted March 31, 2003 Share Posted March 31, 2003 As I am a hunter, hiker and mountain biker in the state, the reason for the no mountain bikes and horseback riding in the SGL's during hunting season should have been the rule for years. I'm not against them at any other time of year, but not during hunting season. The reason for this, is that there are too many riding through the gamelands yelling at eachother, disturbing the hunters and the game. Then there are some of them that decide to be even more ignorant while they are there. I don't understand some of the complaints against the new regulations, but I'm sure there are a few minor ones that should be looked into. I also don't see where placing caches in the SGL's are going to be problems with anyone, unless someone makes it widely known to the game wardens. There are tons of places on SGL's that make for some of the most challenging finds and I know of a few places that we're planning on placing them over the course of the summer. Quote Link to comment
+rock33 Posted March 31, 2003 Share Posted March 31, 2003 Not only does the Game Commission use the monies to buy land but it is use to maintain SGL and improve habitat. I thought all of the Commission’s changes were subject to legislative vote. But I may have been mistaken. House and Senate Bills of Interest to Pennsylvania Game Commission has many House Bills waiting for action. Quote Link to comment
+Salvelinus Posted March 31, 2003 Share Posted March 31, 2003 quote:Originally posted by rock33:Not only does the Game Commission use the monies to buy land but it is use to maintain SGL and improve habitat. I thought all of the Commission’s changes were subject to legislative vote. But I may have been mistaken. http://sites.state.pa.us/PA_Exec/PGC/legislative/index.htm has many House Bills waiting for action. Let me clear this up. Both the Game and Fish and Boat Agencies have governor appointed independant commissions which actually enact regulations relating to Fish and Game. The State Legislature only really votes on financial issues, permits issues, and "major" issues...like new seasons. However, the legislatures can, and do, influence the Commissions in many ways. The new Gamelands regulations were posted (by law) in a public document called the Pennsylvania Bulletin for several months. This is how the public is notified of upcoming regulatory changes and is also the time when public input is accepted. Following a specified period of time, the new regs are voted on by the Commission. If you had comments about these regs, you could of sent a letter to your legislator or commented directly to the game commission. Salvelinus "The trail will be long and full of frustrations. Life is a whole and good and evil must be accepted together" Ralph Abele [This message was edited by Salvelinus on March 31, 2003 at 01:52 PM.] Quote Link to comment
+Salvelinus Posted March 31, 2003 Share Posted March 31, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Salvelinus: quote:Originally posted by rock33:Not only does the Game Commission use the monies to buy land but it is use to maintain SGL and improve habitat. I thought all of the Commission’s changes were subject to legislative vote. But I may have been mistaken. http://sites.state.pa.us/PA_Exec/PGC/legislative/index.htm has many House Bills waiting for action. Let me try to clear this up. Both the Game and Fish and Boat Agencies have governor appointed independant commissions which actually enact regulations relating to Fish and Game. The State Legislature only really votes on financial issues related to the agencies. However, the legislatures can, and do, influence the Commissions on many issues. Almost all the house bills linked by a previous poster have to do with fees, permits or new regulations. Evidently these do come under legislative action. The new Gamelands regulations are just an amendment to existing regulations and can be ammended by the Commission itself. These amemdmends were posted (by law) in a public document called the "Pennsylvania Bulletin" for several months. This is how the public is notified of upcoming regulatory changes and is when public comments are accepted. Following a period of time, the new regs are voted on by the Commission. Comments can be given directly to the commission or through your legislator. Salvelinus http://www.contrabandent.com/cwm/s/otn/animals/goldfish.gif "The trail will be long and full of frustrations. Life is a whole and good and evil must be accepted together" Ralph Abele "The trail will be long and full of frustrations. Life is a whole and good and evil must be accepted together" Ralph Abele Quote Link to comment
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