+74vwBus Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 I am looking for information about placing a cache in a junkyard. It would be a multi cache. Rather then place a traditional that people could attempt to go after at any time, We were hoping to control that by having people start at a stage one where you would get coordinates for stage two from the owner. The owner gives complete permission but just doesn't want people randomly running through the junkyard. Is this possible? Any and all input is greatly appreciated. Thanks Quote Link to comment
+Gitchee-Gummee Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 (edited) Requiring interaction with an employee would (usually) cause a denial for publishing. Best check with your local reviewer before attempting this. • Commercial geocaches are disallowed. Cache listings perceived as commercial will not be published. A commercial cache listing has one or more of the following characteristics: 1. It has overtones of advertising, marketing or promotion. 2. It suggests or requires that the finder go inside a business, interact with employees and/or purchase a product or service. 3. It contains links to businesses, agencies, commercial advertisers, charities, or political or social agendas. 4. It contains the logo of a business or organization, including non-profit organizations. 5. It contains the name of a business or commercial product. Edited April 1, 2015 by Gitchee-Gummee Quote Link to comment
+Walts Hunting Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 All caches must be solvable from the page. Requiring you to talk to a business owner isn't going to fly. Quote Link to comment
+74vwBus Posted April 2, 2015 Author Share Posted April 2, 2015 Thank you for the input. I understand your point. I know of at least two active earth caches that you have to pay admission fees to obtain. How does the rules apply to that? Quote Link to comment
+Gitchee-Gummee Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 (edited) Admission fees themselves are not reasons to disallow a cache being published. It is more-so the "for profit" fees as opposed to the "not for profit" fees. Disney Land, Disney World or an amusement park is for profit; a National Park, state park or the like is generally not for profit. Edit to add: Consider if one is or is not a "business" -- that is the word to keep in mind, not "fee". Edited April 2, 2015 by Gitchee-Gummee Quote Link to comment
+jellis Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 Besides that wouldn't a junkyard be a little dangerous? You think the owner would want to be liable for any accidents while cachers wandering the yard? Quote Link to comment
+niraD Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 Besides that wouldn't a junkyard be a little dangerous? You think the owner would want to be liable for any accidents while cachers wandering the yard?I suppose that depends on the junkyard. I've bought replacement parts at a junkyard where I had to remove the part myself, then bring it back to the office to pay for it. Quote Link to comment
Keystone Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 Besides that wouldn't a junkyard be a little dangerous? You think the owner would want to be liable for any accidents while cachers wandering the yard?I suppose that depends on the junkyard. I've bought replacement parts at a junkyard where I had to remove the part myself, then bring it back to the office to pay for it. Assume that explicit permission is in place. (I know that because the OP sent me an email on this issue recently, and mentioned that he had permission.) Quote Link to comment
Keystone Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 Before I noticed this thread, I answered the OP's email inquiry last evening on the same subject. Thank you to those who posted about the guideline provision prohibiting interaction with employees, and to those who explained the difference between for-profit and non-profit locations with entrance fees. My reply covered one additional factor not yet discussed: As you know from reading the basic guideline text, geocachers cannot be required to go inside the business or to interact with employees. So, for example, you can hide a cache in Wal-Mart's parking lot, but not on Aisle 5 inside the store, between Housewares and Small Appliances. For businesses like commercial KOA- type campgrounds, junkyards, lumber yards, etc., "inside the business" actually means outdoors. The new cars lined up on a car dealer's lot, the RV's lined up in a campground, or the junked cars in a junkyard are analogous to the goods on the shelf in a grocery store or Wal-Mart. So, you'll want to aim for a hiding spot outside of the junkyard proper. (In my experience these are usually fenced-off properties so you would be hiding the cache outside the fence.) For a forum discussion about a cache "inside" a campground, see this thread. Quote Link to comment
+74vwBus Posted April 2, 2015 Author Share Posted April 2, 2015 (edited) Thanks for the info and replies. I see the line between business and say a Visitor's Center. Lemme give a quick rundown and see if there is any way we can make this work within the guidelines... This isn't just any old junkyard...it's a Volkswagen Bus Heaven! It's a museum! It's more a collection than a business. When we arrive, there are not ANY business signs. No business name. No phone number. Just 150ish VWs from 50s - 80s(mainly Buses) scattered throughout the property. There aren't any No Trespassing signs. No Posted signs. No fences or real borders. No real order to the VWs. Just scattered over a bunch of acreage. I don't even think he's in the phone book as a business. I go there for the nostalgia. Of course I talk him into selling me parts for my VWs. But never will you find him trying to sell you anything. He's in his early 70s and is the old school "want to die with it all" kinda guys. This is truly a lil Volkswagen Fantasy world. I'd love it to be seen and he was okay with it once I explained everything. He knows how I feel about it as museum aspect. That being said....since it's not really a advertised "business"....is there anything we can do to make it work? I think this would make for an instant favorite in Pennsylvania. Thanks! Edited April 2, 2015 by 74VWbusFamily Quote Link to comment
Keystone Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 The photos are helpful as they suggest that this is not a commercial business but rather a fellow with a very interesting yard. There are many caches that feature similar oddities; one of my favorites is Mocopulence. The issue of required interactions with the property owner is still presented, as is the need to avoid commercial promotion of the Volkswagen brand in the cache listing. Quote Link to comment
+derektiffany Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 FWIW, - If the property owner is insistent on wanting to talk to cache seekers, I wouldn’t set up a cache there. - If the property owner is insistent on wanting to pass along the museum / informational aspect of the site, I wouldn’t set up a cache there. - If, however, the property owner just wanted to pass along safety information, do’s / don’t, accessible / off-limit areas (and not have people randomly running through the junkyard.) … I’d propose the following to the property owner and reviewer: S1 (at parking) which contains information about safety, do’s / don’t, accessible / off-limit areas, etc. (and how to find S2). Seems reasonable (as a cache seeker). Of course, I'm not your reviewer so YMMV. I’d also make sure to let the property owner know that while some cachers might be sociable, interested in learning more about the site, conversational, etc. … some might not. People are funny that way. Looks like a cool area. One can certainly envision a very fun/enjoyable cache there. Keystone, Thanks for the additional clarification re: “inside the business”. Helpful/informative. Quote Link to comment
+74vwBus Posted April 2, 2015 Author Share Posted April 2, 2015 I can definitely take care of the Volkswagen advertising via description issue. I'm just thinking of a way we can work it out so that there's some type of checking in process. This is just needed so he can tell who's a geocacher and who's a possible parts thief. That and it'd be good to know someone is in the yard in case they got hurt. He'd know they are out there. Quote Link to comment
+74vwBus Posted April 2, 2015 Author Share Posted April 2, 2015 What if instead of directly contacting him, I would place something outside of his office. Maybe a flag or a box where you'd stop for stage one. Putting the flag up or down would signify that somebody is out in the yard. That would notify him and at same time, keep from having to interact. Quote Link to comment
+cerberus1 Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 If "flag up/down" is the only way in or out, it might work, but we've seen more than a few "pick up key, replace when done" caches needing maintenance because folks didn't put it back. - They're done with the cache, now just looking to get back to their car. Similar, unless they have to stop by it again, I'd bet there'd be a few folks not dropping that flag. As we've seen, not too many reading cache pages (or grasping/following needed info) today. - That hurry off to the next one thing, I guess. If even just a few forgot, or failed to raise that flag and the owner sees a "possible parts thief", do you think it'd still be a great idea? Quote Link to comment
+niraD Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 What if instead of directly contacting him, I would place something outside of his office. Maybe a flag or a box where you'd stop for stage one. Putting the flag up or down would signify that somebody is out in the yard. That would notify him and at same time, keep from having to interact.If your question is whether your new cache design can be published, then the person you need to have the conversation with is your local reviewer. Nothing we say here in the forum matters. Quote Link to comment
+L0ne.R Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 I can definitely take care of the Volkswagen advertising via description issue. I'm just thinking of a way we can work it out so that there's some type of checking in process. This is just needed so he can tell who's a geocacher and who's a possible parts thief. That and it'd be good to know someone is in the yard in case they got hurt. He'd know they are out there. Is the area open at all hours? Is there a gate/fence to keep people out? Geocachers might show up at any time of the day. If there is a gate/fence where you can still see the old VWs from the fence? Maybe a mailbox attached to the fence would work. Paint/stencil a GC logo on the mailbox so cachers know exactly where to go. Quote Link to comment
+NanCycle Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 Is the area open at all hours? Is there a gate/fence to keep people out? Geocachers might show up at any time of the day. If there is a gate/fence where you can still see the old VWs from the fence? Maybe a mailbox attached to the fence would work. Paint/stencil a GC logo on the mailbox so cachers know exactly where to go. Geocachers might show up at any time of the day. OR NIGHT! A mailbox with the GC logo could work; it could be Stage 1 or it could even be the cache so those who don't want to tromp around in the old VWs could just sign the log there. The mailbox could contain safety/other information and a flag up/down mechanism. Not foolproof, but maybe helpful (?) For a multi - stickers or some type of card could be placed on the vehicles used as stages to give the coordinates to the next stage. Just throwing out some ideas here. Quote Link to comment
+AlfT & Co Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 It sounds like a great idea to me. One suggestion I would like to make that ties in with a few others. As OP suggested, make it a multi. Stage 1 = Mailbox with flag and safety info. Stage 2 and additional stages being points of interest. The final stage with the log would be near Stage 1 and being a separate container. For example the description on the Cache page takes them to the Mailbox. The Stage before the final would have a hint "Below mailbox" or "At base of post" with same co-ordinates as mailbox. This way they have to return to lower the flag. Or maybe lowering the flag release the cache with final log. Just an idea. As previous poster stated it is up to reviewer if it is acceptable or not. Good luck. I hope you find a way. Quote Link to comment
knowschad Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 The photos are helpful as they suggest that this is not a commercial business but rather a fellow with a very interesting yard. There are many caches that feature similar oddities; one of my favorites is Mocopulence. The issue of required interactions with the property owner is still presented, as is the need to avoid commercial promotion of the Volkswagen brand in the cache listing. (I haven't finished reading the rest of the thread yet, so perhaps this has already been addressed). The WINTAGE Volkswagen is a very strong piece of Americana (German origin not withstanding). Is there some way to separate the historical aspect from the commercial aspect? (that Mocopulence cache looks amazing, BTW... thanks for the link!) Quote Link to comment
knowschad Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 What if instead of directly contacting him, I would place something outside of his office. Maybe a flag or a box where you'd stop for stage one. Putting the flag up or down would signify that somebody is out in the yard. That would notify him and at same time, keep from having to interact. I was just thinking of something very similar. The problems here would be, who would reset the flag if the geocachers forgot, and how would it be handled if there were more than one geocacher (or group) in there at the same time. Quote Link to comment
Keystone Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 The photos are helpful as they suggest that this is not a commercial business but rather a fellow with a very interesting yard. There are many caches that feature similar oddities; one of my favorites is Mocopulence. The issue of required interactions with the property owner is still presented, as is the need to avoid commercial promotion of the Volkswagen brand in the cache listing. (I haven't finished reading the rest of the thread yet, so perhaps this has already been addressed). The WINTAGE Volkswagen is a very strong piece of Americana (German origin not withstanding). Is there some way to separate the historical aspect from the commercial aspect? (that Mocopulence cache looks amazing, BTW... thanks for the link!) Great question. Did you know about the "pop culture" exception to the listing guidelines about commercialism? That's what allows caches themed around sports teams, classic rock bands, Seinfeld episodes, and yes -- even Volkswagens. Here is another excerpt from the email advice I gave to the OP (I am the reviewer for the OP's home area): ...concerning VW buses, you will need to avoid overtones of commercial promotion. You will want to fit any limited references to the product into the "pop culture" exception to the commercial guideline. See this help center article: http://support.Groundspeak.com/index.php?pg=kb.page&id=475 Concentrate on the contributions of the VW bus to the hippy movement, for example, and not on the product features, the VW logo, etc. Quote Link to comment
+geodarts Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 Is that my old blue van in one of the pictures? Probably not, given the geography, but all you needed in those days was the van, a copy of Muir's guide to fixing it, a basic set of tools, and perhaps a loved one, dog, and a desire to see what lies down the road. I miss it! And I hope there is a way to get this published. Quote Link to comment
+Coldnosed Posted April 5, 2015 Share Posted April 5, 2015 What if there were a handful of flags that a group of geocachers could carry (one) with them while on the property? This would allow the property owner to confirm with a glance what they are doing. Have the finial near the start as previously recommended to make returning the flag simple. Quote Link to comment
+Crow-T-Robot Posted April 6, 2015 Share Posted April 6, 2015 I like the idea of having a mailbox or container at WP1 with a recognizable geocaching logo on it and filling it with cards printed up with the coords to the next stage, safety info, the junkyard owners name...maybe even have some interesting tidbits of info about some of the VW vans on the property. The cacher would take a card and if the owner should ask them what they're doing there, they can just present the card as proof of being geocachers. If there is only one way in and out of the yard, have WP1 set up at the entrance so that returning the cards is a quick stop when leaving. Quote Link to comment
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