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Geocache Visibility - Premium or All?


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All members are able to find and log all geocaches. That means basic members are allowed to find and log premium member only caches. The basic members just can't see those caches on the maps.

 

Now there are many reason people make PMO caches. What I've seen locally was some young basic members causing problems with caches so new caches placed where PMO. They eventually gave up and we went back to normal caches. I've also placed a puzzle cache or 2 as PMO to view the audit log to see how many times the finders have viewed the cache page.

 

In general I think caches should not be PMO. If we want to introduce new cachers to the game, why hide it from them?

 

There is the argument that making caches PMO stops them from getting taken/ruined. This is not true because it may not be other cachers doing it, or it may be a premium doing it. Yes it worked in my example, but that was a specific case targeted at known people who happened to be basic members. Had they been premium members something else would have been done.

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Depends on different factors.

 

- Is it fragile, or in a sensitive area?

- Do you want to limit the visitors to the cache, or do you want to provide a good cache experience to newbies who might emulate your example?

 

Keep in mind that even newbies become PM (especially not realizing they don't get the full app when they go PM), and PMO caches are visible on the intro app if the user is PM. So making it PMO doesn't guarantee that only seasoned veterans will find it.

 

That said, all my 7 caches are open for everyone. If I made a TB-attractive cache, though, I'd make it PMO.

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All members are able to find and log all geocaches. That means basic members are allowed to find and log premium member only caches. The basic members just can't see those caches on the maps.

Incorrect. A basic member is not allowed to view the cache page, get the coordinates, etc. of a premium only cache.

 

Make viewable to ALL. Stop the EXCLUSION of fellow members.

 

There has been ZERO hard proof to any benefit of a premium cache. For every person that says it keeps cache theft down, there is just as many premium caches that are thieved or vandalized.

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All members are able to find and log all geocaches. That means basic members are allowed to find and log premium member only caches. The basic members just can't see those caches on the maps.

Incorrect. A basic member is not allowed to view the cache page, get the coordinates, etc. of a premium only cache.

 

Make viewable to ALL. Stop the EXCLUSION of fellow members.

 

There has been ZERO hard proof to any benefit of a premium cache. For every person that says it keeps cache theft down, there is just as many premium caches that are thieved or vandalized.

 

Never said they could view the cache pages. I said they could find and log them.

Edited by T.D.M.22
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In our area we just had a case of caches being stolen by a High School student--not a geocacher, just a kid with a smart phone and a downloaded free app. Unless and until there's another way to keep any kid with a smart phone from being able to find caches to trash or steal, mine are going to be either puzzles, multis or PMO.

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A handful of my caches are PMO, for no particular reason, just 'cause it's an option. Mostly not. I'm mindful of the issue of basic cachers not being able to see them, and that this is a nuisance when they try to hide their own.

 

I've changed a couple of caches to PMO to keep them out of the phones of novices. A challenge cache that kept being logged as "found" by new cachers with 3-8 finds and no clue what a challenge cache is, and another ammo can on a nice trail, not far from parking in a state park. Cache that kept being reported as wet, and each time I checked, it simply wasn't closed.

The 3rd trip, I cleaned it up well, and made it PMO - I've not had to service it since, that was Christmas 2012.

 

To TheWeatherWarrior, actually because I have a huge pile o' data for caches in Florida going back to 2003, I can tell you that PMO caches survive at a statistically significant rate above non_PMO in Florida.

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Do you think it is better that your Geocache is visible to premium members only or should everyone be able to go find it?

PMO may be used if you don't want someone one-time loading the Intro App for free, to see your cache listed.

 

One of mine was in a small forested area next to a soccer field, and bored kids (I mean really, who could ever be bored there?) seemed to regularly find the ammo can and drag it and the contents all over the trail. Even with no “App” at all. So when I re-tooled my hide, now it's uber-aggressively hidden (even I can't find it, which is not saying much), it's a Puzzle Cache which involves Chirp, and I made it PMO, so it's off the grid to someone bored with soccer, loading Apps on their phone. Oh yeah, this time it's staying put. Similar to NanCycle's situation, sometimes PMO is something a cache owner may try after some issue (perhaps as a last resort) in lieu of placing no cache. And the cache in this story is in a place where there would otherwise be no cache -- it's just too muggly without extreme measures.

 

You can also see who's looking at the cache page (in most cases), which can come in handy. When I see a lot of hits by a cacher, maybe I'll go check the Chirp or spiffy-up the hide, for the cacher's arrival.

 

Most of my caches are not PMO. The ones that are, are not found as often, and therefore don't need as much maintenance. But my non-PMO "Puzzle" caches also are very much less found, so PMO isn't necessarily the only way to make a "quiet cache", or may require use in conjunction with other schemes, to keep a given cache in place. So what is "PMO" in fact good for? As mentioned, that's debatable. :anibad:

Edited by kunarion
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I have two caches, both a PMO. I originally listed them as such because they had FTF prizes and I did not want them trashed before they were found. I also had a TB in the one that I had hoped would be better off for its maiden trip by making it PMO. Yeah, that was wrong... It was found by a new PMO cacher that took the TB in July from my cache and never logged on to GC.com again. No response from emails either, but at least he was a verified account! So I guess that, in the end, never made a difference.

 

I do worry about the caches being trashed by the one time use intro app users but my caches are all miles into a park through somewhat rugged terrain so I think that would be to much effort for a lazy teen looking to trash our game. (No offense or indication meant that all the teens here are lazy so do not get upset please) :anibad:

 

EDIT: Typos from auto correct..

Edited by doc73
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I have both and for me it comes down to the cost of replacing a cache (or stage of a multi) which determines whether or not it's PMO. I have a series that involves Scrabble pieces, bingo balls, dominoes, cards, and dice. Keeping all of them going costs me money if they end up getting taken and that can get expensive. Most of the ones I've done recently have been available to all.

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In our area we just had a case of caches being stolen by a High School student--not a geocacher, just a kid with a smart phone and a downloaded free app. Unless and until there's another way to keep any kid with a smart phone from being able to find caches to trash or steal, mine are going to be either puzzles, multis or PMO.

 

A big A-men to that

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I think the coolest thing about PMO caches is that way your map fills up when you buy a Premium membership. I was very excited to see many new caches near my house.

 

I have hidden one cache and it is PMO. I want it to be around a long time and i guess in my head having it PMO would increase the longevity of the cache.

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Unless and until there's another way to keep any kid with a smart phone from being able to find caches to trash or steal, mine are going to be either puzzles, multis or PMO.

Yep. Well said. I'll just add that PMO's are a little help in protecting geocoins and travelbugs. I won't leave them in regular caches anymore. Too much chance of an intro app user taking them without having any idea what they are or what you are supposed to do with them.

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I've been a premium member since almost day one of geocaching for me. I think PMO caches are also just fine because it supports the game and the upkeep of the repository of the caches. $30 a year is peanuts compared to the enjoyment I've gotten from the hobby and not unreasonable IMO. Most probably spend more on coffee every week at certain coffee shops. Small price for the enjoyment

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$30 is not peanuts when you are unemployed. Some people aren't Premium Members, not because they don't want to support the game (as many people seem to assume), but because they simply can't afford it. I don't have much heat, no refrigerator, no insurance...many things I wish I had. I USED to be a PM back in the day. But even if I were still a PM, I wouldn't have PMO caches. I believe caches should be available to everyone. EOC--equal opportunity caching. No extreme challenge requirements, no "premium" exclusions...just hide a regular cache and let everyone have a chance to get some exercise and have a fun day. But that's just how I see caching. Hopefully some day I'll be able to be a paying member again. I do wish GS would not punish general members by taking away search features.

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All members are able to find and log all geocaches. That means basic members are allowed to find and log premium member only caches. The basic members just can't see those caches on the maps.

 

Now there are many reason people make PMO caches. What I've seen locally was some young basic members causing problems with caches so new caches placed where PMO. They eventually gave up and we went back to normal caches. I've also placed a puzzle cache or 2 as PMO to view the audit log to see how many times the finders have viewed the cache page.

 

In general I think caches should not be PMO. If we want to introduce new cachers to the game, why hide it from them?

 

There is the argument that making caches PMO stops them from getting taken/ruined. This is not true because it may not be other cachers doing it, or it may be a premium doing it. Yes it worked in my example, but that was a specific case targeted at known people who happened to be basic members. Had they been premium members something else would have been done.

I read somewhere that a cacher contacted GC about his rights as a paid member that his PMO not be logged by non PM and was allowed to delete any logs of non PM.

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Plantakiss be happy you can do anything without a paid membership here. I may be wrong but don't you need the buy or pay for the codes for the other game to place anything. The reality is one day I bet the reins will keep getting tighter here until you need to be a paying member to do anything. After all this is a business to make as much money as they can.

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Plantakiss be happy you can do anything without a paid membership here. I may be wrong but don't you need the buy or pay for the codes for the other game to place anything. The reality is one day I bet the reins will keep getting tighter here until you need to be a paying member to do anything. After all this is a business to make as much money as they can.

 

If it happen to goes that way, then it will break an old promise without which this site never would have been become what it is now. There have been many cachers who only contributed caches to this site under the premise that extra services are pay only services, but that the basic game will remain free.

 

Of course it is legitimate that a company wants to earn money, but geocaching in itself is not a commercial activity and is not owned by someone. There has been a lot of scepticism towards the commercialization of geocaching right from the beginning and without what I mentioned above at least in many regions of Europe the site never ever would have manage to establish an almost monopoly.

 

That's a matter of principle and not a matter of whether 30 Dollar/Euro is much or not.

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The problem is that promises mean nothing. They made the promise 15 years ago when they ran the site in their mom's basement, LOL. Now there's probably a board of directors, big hq, employees, CFO.... Blah blah. I would hate to see it become a members only thing as well. But I also never thought I'd need to pay to watch certain YouTube videos or listen to my favorite radio stations show that now moved to satellite.

 

They may not own geocaching as a hobby but they do. They are the ones most think of when we here of this hobby. Would they loose a few people if they went paid only, sure, but I bet they would continue on and flourish if they did in spite the few who quit the game or went somewhere else..

Edited by doc73
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I read somewhere that a cacher contacted GC about his rights as a paid member that his PMO not be logged by non PM and was allowed to delete any logs of non PM.

Yeah, it was a wording thing that set it off.

Marketing hype stating, "Premium Member Only caches are placed and found exclusively by Geocaching Premium Members."

- Today it reads, "Premium Member Only caches are exclusively placed by Geocaching Premium Members and are only visible on our apps and website to Geocaching Premium Members.

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They may not own geocaching as a hobby but they do. They are the ones most think of when we here of this hobby. Would they loose a few people if they went paid only, sure, but I bet they would continue on and flourish if they did in spite the few who quit the game or went somewhere else..

 

I think a major difference with respect to the radio station (by the way, I have to pay for the national TV and radio company even though I never watch them, but just own a radio and TV set)

and the you tube videos is that gc.com is most dependent on that caches are hidden and maintained and this is not work done by Groundspeak (which provides a listing service which could not exist at all without people hiding and maintaining caches).

 

If they ever would go the pay only route, they will lose many caches. They can force people to pay a fee if they want to use the site, but they cannot force people to hide and maintain caches.

 

All the work I have invested into my caches is work I have contributed to the local community and it's me who wants to decide who can see and search for my caches and under which conditions (namely non restricted in my case).

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They may not own geocaching as a hobby but they do. They are the ones most think of when we here of this hobby. Would they loose a few people if they went paid only, sure, but I bet they would continue on and flourish if they did in spite the few who quit the game or went somewhere else..

 

I think a major difference with respect to the radio station (by the way, I have to pay for the national TV and radio company even though I never watch them, but just own a radio and TV set)

and the you tube videos is that gc.com is most dependent on that caches are hidden and maintained and this is not work done by Groundspeak (which provides a listing service which could not exist at all without people hiding and maintaining caches).

 

If they ever would go the pay only route, they will lose many caches. They can force people to pay a fee if they want to use the site, but they cannot force people to hide and maintain caches.

 

All the work I have invested into my caches is work I have contributed to the local community and it's me who wants to decide who can see and search for my caches and under which conditions (namely non restricted in my case).

I agree. We know of many basic members with quite a few caches out.

A listing site with few listings could break things. :)

- Though none of us have an idea on how many basic members/caches involved.

 

I mentioned pay-to-play in another thread once, and was quickly pooh-poohed as a stretch.

But this new search function, excluding basic members altogether, kinda looks that way to me...

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I think the coolest thing about PMO caches is that way your map fills up when you buy a Premium membership. I was very excited to see many new caches near my house.

That's funny. In my town, there are NO PMO caches. The closest one to me is over 6 miles away. :)

 

Your mileage may vary.

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I think the coolest thing about PMO caches is that way your map fills up when you buy a Premium membership. I was very excited to see many new caches near my house.

That's funny. In my town, there are NO PMO caches. The closest one to me is over 6 miles away. :)

 

Your mileage may vary.

 

Yeah, we don't have many around here. There is one hider in particular who does it, but they mainly hide those dull straight lines of micros so I don't really see the utility of making them PMO. Nothing to write home about, that's for sure.

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I read somewhere that a cacher contacted GC about his rights as a paid member that his PMO not be logged by non PM and was allowed to delete any logs of non PM.

Yeah, it was a wording thing that set it off.

Marketing hype stating, "Premium Member Only caches are placed and found exclusively by Geocaching Premium Members."

- Today it reads, "Premium Member Only caches are exclusively placed by Geocaching Premium Members and are only visible on our apps and website to Geocaching Premium Members.

Though it still doesn't mention if non PM are allowed to log them. I let them log mine as long they actually found it. Right now on our local Geocaching Facebook page we are dealing with an Intro App cacher with No validated email who logged a find on a puzzle. Problem is the container they have a picture of is not the puzzle final. The discussion is trying to find out which cache they actually did find. Problem is without an email address there is no way to contact the cacher to let them know they logged the wrong cache. I suggested either delete the log or ignore it. It is still be discussed because they want to help the cacher.

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I read somewhere that a cacher contacted GC about his rights as a paid member that his PMO not be logged by non PM and was allowed to delete any logs of non PM.

Yeah, it was a wording thing that set it off.

Marketing hype stating, "Premium Member Only caches are placed and found exclusively by Geocaching Premium Members."

- Today it reads, "Premium Member Only caches are exclusively placed by Geocaching Premium Members and are only visible on our apps and website to Geocaching Premium Members.

Though it still doesn't mention if non PM are allowed to log them. I let them log mine as long they actually found it. Right now on our local Geocaching Facebook page we are dealing with an Intro App cacher with No validated email who logged a find on a puzzle. Problem is the container they have a picture of is not the puzzle final. The discussion is trying to find out which cache they actually did find. Problem is without an email address there is no way to contact the cacher to let them know they logged the wrong cache. I suggested either delete the log or ignore it. It is still be discussed because they want to help the cacher.

 

Not much you can do to help someone who won't provide contact details.

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I read somewhere that a cacher contacted GC about his rights as a paid member that his PMO not be logged by non PM and was allowed to delete any logs of non PM.

Yeah, it was a wording thing that set it off.

Marketing hype stating, "Premium Member Only caches are placed and found exclusively by Geocaching Premium Members."

- Today it reads, "Premium Member Only caches are exclusively placed by Geocaching Premium Members and are only visible on our apps and website to Geocaching Premium Members.

Though it still doesn't mention if non PM are allowed to log them.

True.

The Help Center's explanation of Benefits of Premium, still has the old statement, with an opening sentence I never noticed before, "Access thousands of additional geocaches not available to Basic members".

- So not accurate (the same spiel) site-wide, or with any clear mention of the backdoor methods allowed.

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I read somewhere that a cacher contacted GC about his rights as a paid member that his PMO not be logged by non PM and was allowed to delete any logs of non PM.

Yeah, it was a wording thing that set it off.

Marketing hype stating, "Premium Member Only caches are placed and found exclusively by Geocaching Premium Members."

- Today it reads, "Premium Member Only caches are exclusively placed by Geocaching Premium Members and are only visible on our apps and website to Geocaching Premium Members.

Though it still doesn't mention if non PM are allowed to log them. I let them log mine as long they actually found it. Right now on our local Geocaching Facebook page we are dealing with an Intro App cacher with No validated email who logged a find on a puzzle. Problem is the container they have a picture of is not the puzzle final. The discussion is trying to find out which cache they actually did find. Problem is without an email address there is no way to contact the cacher to let them know they logged the wrong cache. I suggested either delete the log or ignore it. It is still be discussed because they want to help the cacher.

 

Not much you can do to help someone who won't provide contact details.

 

One more reason they should be verified through email before reaking havoc like pretty much any other sign up for a service would require.

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Plantakiss be happy you can do anything without a paid membership here. I may be wrong but don't you need the buy or pay for the codes for the other game to place anything. The reality is one day I bet the reins will keep getting tighter here until you need to be a paying member to do anything. After all this is a business to make as much money as they can.

 

If it happen to goes that way, then it will break an old promise without which this site never would have been become what it is now. There have been many cachers who only contributed caches to this site under the premise that extra services are pay only services, but that the basic game will remain free.

 

Who defines what the basic game means? You or Groundspeak?

 

Today, someone can create an account on the web site, enter a location in the search box, and get up to 1000 cache listings within a 30 mile radius. They can download coordinates for those caches, got out and find them, then use the site to log their experience.

 

Isn't that the basic game?

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Plantakiss be happy you can do anything without a paid membership here. I may be wrong but don't you need the buy or pay for the codes for the other game to place anything. The reality is one day I bet the reins will keep getting tighter here until you need to be a paying member to do anything. After all this is a business to make as much money as they can.

 

If it happen to goes that way, then it will break an old promise without which this site never would have been become what it is now. There have been many cachers who only contributed caches to this site under the premise that extra services are pay only services, but that the basic game will remain free.

 

Who defines what the basic game means? You or Groundspeak?

 

Those people who decided to hide caches on gc.com despite their great scepticism with respect to commercializing geocaching had definitely in mind that it is possible to geocache with premium services

beyond the beginner level and the last 15 years have fitted into that pattern.

 

I'd say that filtering away found caches is much more basic than filtering to cache types (which has not been possible before and would not be necessary as basic service anyway).

 

Today, someone can create an account on the web site, enter a location in the search box, and get up to 1000 cache listings within a 30 mile radius. They can download coordinates for those caches, got out and find them, then use the site to log their experience.

 

Isn't that the basic game?

 

For an absolute beginner, yes (which you have in mind when writing about creating an account). Otherwise, no.

 

Groundspeak uses the formulation that premium membership is to go beyond everyday's needs. Everday's needs are not

linked to being a new cacher. The term premium does not any longer fit when the basic service has become useless

except to newcomers.

 

Making a radical change after 15 years is probably not as fair as it could be, in particular not when a lot of money goes into sources not in the least related to

the IT infrastructure of providing a caching platform. Much more money meanwhile goes into other sources, and not even only into things like paying employees (including community relation people, marketing people etc) but also sending around goodies for events worldwide, sending lackeys to large events worldwide etc. All these things produce costs that are not related to the essentials of geocaching.

 

If they want to earn more money, they should come up with different categories of members and different fees - then everyone can choose what he/she wants to pay for, but even then of course the central argument that geocaching should not be a business (in my eyes and the eyes of many others) is still valid. I neither need PQs, favourites (I would not want to feel the stress of distributing them and do not want to make the FP ratio of caches worse by not using them), bookmark lists nor am I in favour of mega events, new souvenirs, changes on the site (I would prefer if everything stayed the same except correcting bugs if necessary). I neither want to be a PM nor do I want to use the PM features. I just want to be able to use the same basic search as in all those years.

If they want to charge for that, they should do it, but in a separate category that does not force people to become PMs and belong to a group I do not want to belong to (for many reasons).

 

If the search in 2002 and the years to follow had been as the new search is now, I and many others would have used other platforms and gc.com never would have grown in the way it has grown. Without caches to find, no new cachers. That is completely independent on how someone defines basic game.

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Making a radical change after 15 years is probably not as fair as it could be, in particular not when a lot of money goes into sources not in the least related to

the IT infrastructure of providing a caching platform. Much more money meanwhile goes into other sources, and not even only into things like paying employees (including community relation people, marketing people etc) but also sending around goodies for events worldwide, sending lackeys to large events worldwide etc. All these things produce costs that are not related to the essentials of geocaching.

These types of events introduce and promote the geocaching hobby to more people, which means more people may end up finding and hiding caches. There needs to be an influx of new people to 'replace' the cachers that quit, lose interest, can no longer participate in the hobby.

 

I just want to be able to use the same basic search as in all those years.

...

If the search in 2002 and the years to follow had been as the new search is now, I and many others would have used other platforms and gc.com never would have grown in the way it has grown.

That is purely speculation. Also, consider that as times change and the volume of data increases, then the resources to support that volume also needs to increase.

 

For example: If I said I'd mow my neighbor's lawn for FREE forever, then that is an agreement and promise that I'm making. However, if my neighbor takes out his driveway or buys an adjoining property and extends his lawn so it's now 5 times as big as it was before...then is it still fair for him/her to expect me to mow that larger lawn for FREE, since it now requires me to do much more work than when I had made the agreement? Now, compare that to how many caches exist now versus when GS made the promise you keep referring to.

 

I don't think it's unfair to re-set expectations of what will be 'free' when the playing field changes considerably, although the delivery and communications accompanying those changes could probably have been managed better. I also don't think that the new search is 'completely useless' for Basic members. Can you still use the 'Play --> View Geocache Map' option to search for caches in a large area and filter out your finds?

 

If people want to use other sites, then there's nothing requiring those folks to use GC.com and they can freely go and post on other sites. I think some caches are even listed on multiple sites.

 

My 2 cents.

Edited by noncentric
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The free app folks who seem to be able to create an account and log caches on gc.com without ever validating an email seem to be the main deterrants for me in placing a cache as premium only.

 

As for the fear that someday geocaching.com will be pay only, i'll wait for the black helicopters to stop circling my house before i offer an opinion there. :ph34r:

 

i wouldn't mind if they made traditional caches "free" and all (or some) of the other cache types PMO.

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Groundspeak uses the formulation that premium membership is to go beyond everyday's needs. Everday's needs are not

linked to being a new cacher.

 

Specifically which "everyday needs" are not being met?

 

It's not possible to select unfound caches in a reasonable manner when one is not a newcomer and has already found many caches.

The unfound filter (&f=1 in the old search) and the possibility to search outside of the 30 miles area have been removed. The addition of a cache type filter is useless in this setting.

It might be useful for beginners who want to concentrate on traditionals, but it makes no sense for someone who has found most caches in the area.

 

I never had a need for filtering out finds on the maps (I do not use maps at all), but filtering out finds in the search lists is something very fundamental (if not the most fundamental thing at all) if one wants to head out for caches.

 

If the old nearest search will get killed, I fear that the same happens for the nearby search on the cache pages. Then there is no reasonable way left for identifying caches to go for in a meaningful way. And actually it would not even help me if I could have access to PQs as I would not have any use for them. I totally rely on nearest lists in a reasonable output format which is not the case for the new search output (and even less on my laptop).

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