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Clarification


GeoBain

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As someone who has been put on a very short leash and having read about a number of high profile permanent vacations recently, I would like some clarification about what can or cannot be discussed.

 

There are a few topics that have been forbidden for quite a while that recently some mods have stated are not forbidden. There is an app that has caused some ire for a lot of cache owners that is now questionable about whether or not we can discuss it.

 

There are some recently rolled out website features that are problematic for a lot of users.

 

Please don't ban me for asking this question. On the contrary, I would like to know what is safe and what is not safe. As it is, I am hesitant to give an opinion on anything anymore.

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I would like to know why Groundspeak is so afraid of any sort of competition. When I first joined, it was Terracaching and other alternative sites that could not be mentioned. Since then, Munzees and pathtags and Garmin's geocaching site have been forbidden topics. I know of one recently banned cacher that was banned in part because he once mentioned Munzees before it was clarified that mention of them is OK as long as that mention is not perceived as promoting them. I assume the same is true of pathtags.

 

But the main reason for being banned, from what I can figure, is any sort of criticism of Groundspeak or its products by any of its volunteer forum regulars. Why do paranoid? If your product is good, you don't need to be worried, do you, Groundspeak? Please allow us to express our opinions, and if you find them harsh, perhaps you should be looking at yourselves, not at us. There may be fire where there is smoke. Suppressing free speech in your forums may seem like a good business decision, and certainly that is your right, but I really don't think that it is the best way to improve your product. Listen, don't censor.

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Thank you very much Geobain, for having the courage to start this topic. It is a question a lot of us have wanted to ask, but been afraid to ask.

 

I don't want to show up in a space where I'm afraid to voice my opinion for fear of saying something wrong and being banished, when I had no idea it was the wrong thing to say.

 

 

And Knowschad,

You are correct in saying Groundspeak has no need to fear for competition. What is it now? 3 million geocachers cannot be wrong. We all love geocaching, the vast majority of us love Groundspeak. It is getting more and more common for people to know what geocaching is, and it really is true that geocaching and Groundspeak are becoming synonymous.

 

Heck, just look at a geocaching map. No one can catch up to that. No one. There are more than a few dedicated geocachers around that create more dedicated geocachers. This thing is still spreading. Heck, even the Pizza place where we held a recent event, the woman behind the counter was asking us to bring her the log book. She was all excited about us being there.

 

 

It is important to keep a positive outlook in the forums, but in order to do that one must keep a positive outlook. You can't create positive with negative. It just doesn't work.

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I had a weekend ban about four years ago for something I believed was just a joking matter, but apparently it was not to Groundspeak. Since then, I feel the "walking on eggshells" environment. I mostly post vague replies and really do not express my full hearty opinion about much for fear of retribution. There does seem to be a harsh brittle approach with the powers that be rather than a true customer service attitude. In the past, I have been talked down to by lackeys and volunteers and truly do not feel valued as a customer and I don't expect that to change or to be contacted by anybody from home office wanting to understand it.

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Without going into detail, I've been warned on a few occasions...sometimes I felt it was unfair or unwarranted, but I play along.

I do understand them not wanting certain topics (competition, etc.) discussed since doing so could potentially "open the door" to bigger discussions that have nothing to do with Groundspeak or its products. There certainly are places to discuss those topics and I respect their wishes to keep it out of here. I don't feel, however, that the mere mention of certain things is - or should be - enough to get a warning or a ban...but again, if I'm asked not to, I won't. Go along to get along, no?

 

I do agree that name-calling or derogatory remarks really have no place here, but merely making a negative comment should not be a violation.

Going off topic? Every thread has a natural tendency towards digression and, while the discussions should generally focus around the original topic, there are occasions when the enforcement of that particular guideline seems quite disproportionate to the offense.

 

That's all for now. I'd like to here a moderator's take on it. I don't think anyone here is meaning to offend or call anyone out about enforcement, or excessive use of it. The reason I keep coming back to the forums is for the spirited discussions that don't normally descend to something ugly. I've noticed over the last few days a distinct slowdown. Kind of hard to pinpoint, but I think folks have pulled back a bit, and that's unfortunate.

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It just seems that there are conflicting opinions about acceptable topics/subjects. I agree that the rules are clear on derogatory remarks against individuals. But if we don't agree with some aspect of geocaching, we should be able to express our opinion without fear of retribution.

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One must assume there were multiple infractions of the forum guidelines found here

 

forum guidelines

 

which also encompasess agreement with the Terms of service

 

Terms of Service

 

 

==============================================================================================

 

I have no idea what the subject individuals said or did, but I can only assume the camel's back was finally broken after multiple warnings. It IS curious that, if rumors are correct, several long-time contributors were removed permanently or temporarily in one fell swoop.

 

==============================================================================================

 

I don't expect TPTB to answer questions about specific instances, but by the same token the discussion started by the OP may be useful for guidance. Part of the issue is predetermining whether what you are about to type is skirting a violation.

 

Yes we can now mention Munzees in certain limited instances, but don't cross an invisible line.

 

No we shouldn't discuss Pathtags, Garmin's geocaching site, other geocaching apps that aren't endorsed by Groundspeak. Still not sure which others can and can not be discussed.

 

No we shouldn't be intentionally snotty to one another.

 

We can criticize certain facets of the new search feature, but once we start criticizing the employees that developed it we have crossed the invisible line. Does saying, the search sucks cross that line?

 

I agree with a previous poster's comments about "walking on eggshells". I have held back on many occasions and left the rabble-rousing to the professionals. An example is the search (again). The programmers have done a fine job providing a search engine that has the potential to do way more than the old one would do. The problem is that regular users can not figure out how to work it and do all that stuff without coming here and asking others for each step or for workarounds. The thing is definitely not intuitive as should be apparent from all the questions and numerous threads about how to actually use it. Is it slamming the programmers when I say that? I don't know.

 

It reminds me a lot of when an IT guy would come to my office to fix a computer problem. Here, type this, click this, click that, enter this, there you go, that is all there is to it. Bye. To him it was easy and hardly worth the effort of his walk to my office. He knew how to do it and could not understand why it was not intuitive to me.

==============================================================================================

 

Anyhoo, I know this post is disjointed in a stream of consciousness way. I might say I am writing in the same manner as a certain other long-time poster, but if I were to mention his name I would receive a warning. Or not

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Yes we can now mention Munzees in certain limited instances, but don't cross an invisible line.

 

 

I think this is one of the major reasons why one of the 'yuckier' members was permanently booted out. I believe at least 3 of his infractions were because he mentioned that game. Now it's been deemed OK to saw munzee as long as it doesn't promote the game. So If 3 of the 7 infractions (over quite a lot of years and 1000s of posts) were for the word munzee, I don't understand how those old infractions be counted towards permanent banishment?

 

I've been warned once for saying the the Mz word. I hope that infraction gets wiped from my record. Or will this post count as another infraction? I hope not, I'd like to continue contributing.

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I'd like to continue contributing.

 

Yeah, so would I at this point.

 

 

B.

I don't think either of you have worries and I don't know anyone else familiar with the help center like PP.

 

Thanks, B. :)

 

Undecided about continuing to post in this forum, and continue to do unappreciated/unrecognized donkey work for GS, I've refrained from taking out the hammer and swatting a few flies.

 

:omnomnom:

 

 

B.

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Figure I'm probably on my way out too, so what the hay... :laughing:

Don't know if it's age, or lack of tech knowledge, but I still don't know where that line's drawn on posting issues.

Somehow (probably ending today...) I haven't gotten into too much trouble.

 

Recently I was berated by a mod, with thread locked before I could respond, over something simple.

I realize tempers are a bit short now with this search thing.

With so many people ticked, that may have had something to do with it.

Asking a question on a subject another brings up (I thought) was part of this forums thing.

If they don't want to answer, we have an ignore button for posters, or just skip by that post.

- That's what I do. :)

Calling me a troll, then hitting the report button isn't playing fair.

Starting to realize who you respond to can get you in a bind maybe as much as what you say.

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I have since apologized after my seven day vacation for insulting a certain moving cache which I didn't think was a good idea at the time. I have learned my lesson and promise to support all future moving caches. I duly await the first geocache that will travel the 140,000,000 miles to Mars and back. :blink:

Edited by bflentje
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My mind was wandering just now when posting in another thread, and I realized that post was off-topic there and really belongs here. (sometimes I do write without thinking)

 

 

It was about what I learned in one place I worked at when I was 20. I saw the people dealing with the public there being really rude to the customers. If I were one of those customers I would have raised holy... well you get it. Then I watched how the management treated the people working there. I paid attention to stores where they treated the customers really well and asked them about their management.

 

I came to realize that a lot gets passed down. People treated well are more likely to treat others well. People treated badly are more likely to treat others badly.

 

The fact that the angst in these forums was bad a couple of years ago when I quit posting much, and it seems to have gotten a lot worse sense then.

 

The management team of these forums have gotten harsher and harsher and the forums keep getting worse and worse.

 

Perhaps the "fighting fire with fire" method is not working out so well.

 

I heard recently about some other forums where when people were out-of-line they were given clear notices about WHY they were out-of-line, and they were given a clear message about how many other notices they would get and then what consequences would happen from that.

 

That is clear messages that would have someone see that they are causing a problem. When someone is blindsided out-of-the-blue with a notice and no warning, and no indication of what the problem might be, it creates a bad atmosphere that spreads. That person runs to others and says, "What happened?" and others can also get disgruntled.

 

A kind, polite forum management, who does not engage in snarky remarks, therefore encouraging the same, with clear messages and warnings with clear consequences tends to encourage the same.

 

Also, a forum management team that listens to the complaints and suggestion of it's forum members, also creates a kind environment where everyone feels valued.

 

The people in these forums are the people who pay for geocaching.com. I think they have important insights and suggestions that need to be considered.

 

The best managers I've ever had are those who listen to those that work for them. The best companies I've frequented are those who ask for "suggestions and complaints" of the people who frequent their businesses.

 

I always go to businesses that treat their customers well. I always go to businesses that care if a customer feels they not been treated well.

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Just to add my few pennies- I've never been banned. Had a few warnings though, and some of them, IMO where - well I can't say that word - but others I did deserve. Unfortunately you're going to get that anywhere people are involved in making decisions. After all they're people not robots. I don't know for sure what bans or warnings where issued and for what, but it does (did?) Seem like some things where Ok at some times, but not at others.

 

But this seems to remind me of the Off Topic section from a year and a half-2 years ago. That sorted itself out, maybe this will as well :ph34r: I wonder if that solution is still working?

Edited by T.D.M.22
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One must assume there were multiple infractions of the forum guidelines

 

I have no idea what the subject individuals said or did, but I can only assume the camel's back was finally broken after multiple warnings. It IS curious that, if rumors are correct, several long-time contributors were removed permanently or temporarily in one fell swoop.

 

 

There were, I'm sure. However, should not the person's total number of posts be factored in, at least if the majority of those posts are helpful and friendly? Even my auto insurance drops my rates five years after my last accident. But that is not the case here.

 

In one case of a banned poster that I know of, one of the warnings or timeouts (I'm not sure which) was because of a mention of Munzees. Not a promotion... just a mention. Today, that mention is allowable as long as it isn't considered to be a promotion (by the moderators) (as you pointed out)

 

We can criticize certain facets of the new search feature, but once we start criticizing the employees that developed it we have crossed the invisible line. Does saying, the search sucks cross that line?

That is an excellent question, and I think the answer really is different for an occasional poster vs. a volunteer forum regular. Occasional posters seem to be given more leeway.

 

I agree with a previous poster's comments about "walking on eggshells".

Thank you. That was me. I feel that way here ALL.THE.TIME.

 

By the way... this might be a good time to actually thank the moderators and Groundspeak for allowing us this opportunity to speak our minds and clear the air about this. I really expected these threads to be shut down already. Kudos.

 

Winston Churchill said, "Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things."

 

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I have since apologized after my seven day vacation for insulting a certain moving cache which I didn't think was a good idea at the time. I have learned my lesson and promise to support all future moving caches. I duly await the first geocache that will travel the 140,000,000 miles to Mars and back. :blink:

 

Wow! A seven day vacation, and only 2549 forum posts? What is your post per warnings/timeout ratio? Maybe you can make that into a challenge cache! :D

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I have since apologized after my seven day vacation for insulting a certain moving cache which I didn't think was a good idea at the time. I have learned my lesson and promise to support all future moving caches. I duly await the first geocache that will travel the 140,000,000 miles to Mars and back. :blink:

 

Wow! A seven day vacation, and only 2549 forum posts? What is your post per warnings/timeout ratio? Maybe you can make that into a challenge cache! :D

 

I have 2 warnings (and more than a few deleted/edited posts) do I qualify?

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By the way... this might be a good time to actually thank the moderators and Groundspeak for allowing us this opportunity to speak our minds and clear the air about this. I really expected these threads to be shut down already. Kudos.

 

Although placing a fire in a vacuum is a very effective way to extinguish it without expending the energy required to fight it.

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I have since apologized after my seven day vacation for insulting a certain moving cache which I didn't think was a good idea at the time. I have learned my lesson and promise to support all future moving caches. I duly await the first geocache that will travel the 140,000,000 miles to Mars and back. :blink:

 

Wow! A seven day vacation, and only 2549 forum posts? What is your post per warnings/timeout ratio? Maybe you can make that into a challenge cache! :D

 

I have 2 warnings (and more than a few deleted/edited posts) do I qualify?

 

Pah!!! A piddly one in 1,579.5 posts? Naw... don't even think about it, noob!

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A long time ago we used to be able to see our individual warning meters in the forums. The meters were eventually hidden from the general forum population because they caused some confusion, but the moderators can still see them (and presumably still use them when making decisions regarding additional warnings, timeouts, and permanent bans).

 

If you do a forum search for "warning meter" you'll find some interesting discussions - lots of contributions from forum participants happily sharing stories of their warning and timeout experiences.

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A long time ago we used to be able to see our individual warning meters in the forums. The meters were eventually hidden from the general forum population because they caused some confusion, but the moderators can still see them (and presumably still use them when making decisions regarding additional warnings, timeouts, and permanent bans).

 

If you do a forum search for "warning meter" you'll find some interesting discussions - lots of contributions from forum participants happily sharing stories of their warning and timeout experiences.

Yeah, I think those were removed about the time I started posting here. I remember seeing references to it. Fair enough, but only if such warning meters are offset by helpfulness meters and funny meters. To ONLY track bad behavior and ignore positive interactions is a mistake.

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A long time ago we used to be able to see our individual warning meters in the forums. The meters were eventually hidden from the general forum population because they caused some confusion, but the moderators can still see them (and presumably still use them when making decisions regarding additional warnings, timeouts, and permanent bans).

 

If you do a forum search for "warning meter" you'll find some interesting discussions - lots of contributions from forum participants happily sharing stories of their warning and timeout experiences.

Yeah, I think those were removed about the time I started posting here. I remember seeing references to it. Fair enough, but only if such warning meters are offset by helpfulness meters and funny meters. To ONLY track bad behavior and ignore positive interactions is a mistake.

 

Make Better Mistakes Tomorrow.

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I try to be juuuust annoying enough to ensure they never ask me to be a reviewer, yet not be so naughty as to actually get banned/edited/admin-bricked.

So far I've succeeded on both counts. :lol:

So, you are an expert at eggshell walking. Got any helpful hints you would be willing to share?

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This is a great forum. I am actually shocked at how much they let stand here. I moderate a fishing forum and a lot of the stuff I see here I would delete.

The one thing I don't understand (well I kind of do) is the hatred they have for one phone app. I still pay for premium membership here. I also paid for there phone app here. I didn't pay for the app in question. That app helps me to play this game that they own easier. I have even bought several other members premium membership.

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A few things I've noticed is bashing the OP. Come on, they come on here to get advice and I see them get bashed, joked at and ignored.

Then there are ones I would see like road rages. Posters get in heated discussions that look more road rage. Then everything strays off topic.

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The one thing I don't understand (well I kind of do) is the hatred they have for one phone app.

 

What I don't understand is the continual smartphone bashing. I can imagine it would be a turn off for any new geocacher visiting the forum. I keep saying that I find and hide caches successfully all the time with my smartphone, but it doesn't seem to make a difference.

 

I wish a "voice of reason" would step in during some of those threads and correct inaccurate information. Presumably if Groundspeak is promoting smartphone caching, they must think it works pretty well.

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A few things I've noticed is bashing the OP. Come on, they come on here to get advice and I see them get bashed, joked at and ignored.

 

And that's often magnified but numerous posters piling on. If someone posts that they're planning on placing a cache while on vacation how many responses does it really need to let them know that it's against guidelines.

 

 

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A few things I've noticed is bashing the OP. Come on, they come on here to get advice and I see them get bashed, joked at and ignored.

 

And that's often magnified but numerous posters piling on. If someone posts that they're planning on placing a cache while on vacation how many responses does it really need to let them know that it's against guidelines.

 

Honestly one should do, but some people just don't seem to get it. They don't like the answers they get so they ask again or try to work around it or argue or whatever. Sometimes it does take more than one person with the same answer o get the message through. Sometimes we may feel they deserve it- people asking how to place virtuals, or why their cache wasn't published 2 minutes after they hit that button, or people given clear instructions by reviewers (your cache is 100 feet from XYZ traditional cache, please move it) then asking what they should do. Not saying it's fair or right, but it is why that happens sometimes. You have to admit people asking some really obvious questions does get a bit frustrating.

Edited by T.D.M.22
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A few things I've noticed is bashing the OP. Come on, they come on here to get advice and I see them get bashed, joked at and ignored.

 

And that's often magnified but numerous posters piling on. If someone posts that they're planning on placing a cache while on vacation how many responses does it really need to let them know that it's against guidelines.

 

Honestly one should do, but some people just don't seem to get it. They don't like the answers they get so they ask again or try to work around it or argue or whatever. Sometimes it does take more than one person with the same answer o get the message through. Sometimes we may feel they deserve it- people asking how to place virtuals, or why their cache wasn't published 2 minutes after they hit that button, or people given clear instructions by reviewers (your cache is 100 feet from XYZ traditional cache, please move it) then asking what they should do. Not saying it's fair or right, but it is why that happens sometimes. You have to admit people asking some really obvious questions does get a bit frustrating.

+!

Just last week I answered a question (correctly) from a newer person.

A few days later, he posted that he thought his question deserved more than just one answer.

A few then posted that he got the answer, why pile on?

- Really, you can't win...

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A few things I've noticed is bashing the OP. Come on, they come on here to get advice and I see them get bashed, joked at and ignored.

Then there are ones I would see like road rages. Posters get in heated discussions that look more road rage. Then everything strays off topic.

True. The pile-ons. Those are situations where actual moderation needs to be done right away. A moderator should step into that thread as soon as it becomes clear what is happening and put their foot down. Only when somebody ignores those actual public warnings should, in my mind, moderators resort to private warnings, times-out, and banning. Moderators primary job should be to moderate, not to punish. The need to punishment should be seen as a failure to moderate properly (in most cases. Of course there are going to be extreme situations )

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The one thing I don't understand (well I kind of do) is the hatred they have for one phone app.

 

What I don't understand is the continual smartphone bashing. I can imagine it would be a turn off for any new geocacher visiting the forum. I keep saying that I find and hide caches successfully all the time with my smartphone, but it doesn't seem to make a difference.

 

I wish a "voice of reason" would step in during some of those threads and correct inaccurate information. Presumably if Groundspeak is promoting smartphone caching, they must think it works pretty well.

 

I believe that WarNinja was referring to Groundspeak's "hatred" for the c:geo app.

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True. The pile-ons. Those are situations where actual moderation needs to be done right away. A moderator should step into that thread as soon as it becomes clear what is happening and put their foot down. Only when somebody ignores those actual public warnings should, in my mind, moderators resort to private warnings, times-out, and banning. Moderators primary job should be to moderate, not to punish. The need to punishment should be seen as a failure to moderate properly (in most cases. Of course there are going to be extreme situations )

 

^^^ This.

 

Forum users learn nothing from clandestine manoeuvres directed at select individuals.

 

I've done reasonably well during my time here in receiving just one suspension, 7 days I think it was. I recall politely requesting clarification of the reason at the time but none was received so I still don't know for sure what I was supposed to have done wrong - or what modifications I would need to elect to make to my behaviour in order to avoid more of the same in the future.

 

I doubt this thread will produce anything of use but I do miss some of those missing posters, despite our disagreements.

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I am not a moderator. I am a reviewer and I have editor privileges in some sections of the Help Center. My player account, Isonzo Karst, is regular forum poster.

 

Some accounts were permanently banned from these forums. A day or so after I learned this, I realized how much more relaxed it made me in working in the Help Center. I'd reached the point of suggesting to staff that they make edits, instead of just handling it.

 

I hadn't quite grasped that I'd lost my nerve for it, until going in to make a minor edit. It dawned on me that I could go ahead do the whole needed rewrite. It wasn't going to become the basis of 7 page forum thread, words being picked apart one by one, analyzed to death, with all manor of conspiracy theory about trying to force this or that on unsuspecting users.

 

It's fine to complain about site changes, guideline issues. But everything you see on this site is the work of a person or persons, not a machine. The level of aggression by some posters is hard to stomach.

 

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Pup Patrol, thank you. I often open threads and there you are, having answered questions, correctly, succinctly, nicely, with relevant links.

 

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As jellis wrote above, "A few things I've noticed is bashing the OP". Yes, users get run out of these forums by those who quickly take the thread sidewise into other mildly relevant topics. Posting inside references, asides, and making the person who just wants to know HOW or has a question uncomfortable.

 

Recently someone wanted to know how to make his PMO cache available to Basic Members. The first responding post was an attack on their premise.

This is not unusual. Poster quickly asked to have the thread closed. I don't expect they'll ever come back.

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I am not a moderator. I am a reviewer and I have editor privileges in some sections of the Help Center. My player account, Isonzo Karst, is regular forum poster.

 

Some accounts were permanently banned from these forums. A day or so after I learned this, I realized how much more relaxed it made me in working in the Help Center. I'd reached the point of suggesting to staff that they make edits, instead of just handling it.

 

I hadn't quite grasped that I'd lost my nerve for it, until going in to make a minor edit. It dawned on me that I could go ahead do the whole needed rewrite. It wasn't going to become the basis of 7 page forum thread, words being picked apart one by one, analyzed to death, with all manor of conspiracy theory about trying to force this or that on unsuspecting users.

 

It's fine to complain about site changes, guideline issues. But everything you see on this site is the work of a person or persons, not a machine. The level of aggression by some posters is hard to stomach.

 

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Pup Patrol, thank you. I often open threads and there you are, having answered questions, correctly, succinctly, nicely, with relevant links.

 

------------------

 

As jellis wrote above, "A few things I've noticed is bashing the OP". Yes, users get run out of these forums by those who quickly take the thread sidewise into other mildly relevant topics. Posting inside references, asides, and making the person who just wants to know HOW or has a question uncomfortable.

 

Recently someone wanted to know how to make his PMO cache available to Basic Members. The first responding post was an attack on their premise.

This is not unusual. Poster quickly asked to have the thread closed. I don't expect they'll ever come back.

 

All these years, and I had no idea that you and Isonzo Karst were one and the same!

 

Thanks for the perspective as a volunteer. I suspect most of us know all too well what you mean about the infinite parsing of every word! That gets tiresome to some of us, so I can only imagine the cold sweats it would sometimes give you!!

 

However, (and this may be naive on my part, never having worn those moccasins) it seems to me that a moderator stepping into the thread sooner and putting the kibosh on in public needs to happen more often than it does. It has been my experience that that USUALLY works pretty well. And when it comes to guideline and help file revisions, more transparency would probably help. Without that, it leaves people to endless speculation about the reasons for, and meanings of those revisions. (again, perhaps experience has shown that transparency doesn't really help... but lack of it doesn't help either, obviously)

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