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Geocaching Angel Rewards?


infiniteMPG

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As geocaching grows so do the numbers of caches and the more variety of cache hides. As an owner who tries to keep placing unique and involved hides, when there is an issue with one I am very reluctant to just dump it into the archive bin. But that means a lot of babysitting runs, many of which are just to replace a full log sheet or a damp log or the baggie the log is in. Many geocachers have become "geocaching angels" helping out by carrying an extra log and baggie and stuff and helping an owner out. Issue is they are only doing it out of the goodness of their heart.

 

GC implemented a system to allow geocachers to give favorite points to certain hides, wouldn't it be nice if there was a way to award compliments/awards/kudos/gold stars to individual geocachers for being quality geocachers or helping fix a log or repair a hide for an owner??? This would entice many geocachers to "try" to help out and earn kudos from cache owners or fellow cachers, however it was worked out. It would also keep geocaches maintained better as it would help relieve a cache owner from a long drive, hike or paddle to do something as simple as replace a log sheet.

 

Any chance of getting something like that???? B)

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Well you could say thanks. Or buy them a premium membership. Anyway I don't think it's a good idea. You should not expect people to help you, yes it's nice when they do, but don't etc it. I think it would only encourage people not to look after their caches. IMO if you can't do the maintenance you shouldn't hide the cache. Put in bigger log books if you don't like replacing full ones. Hide caches in better containers at drier locations if you don't like them getting wet.

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The CO clicks that they read the guidelines when they submit a cache.

One guideline is the CO's responsible for maintenance on their own hides.

- One or 400, folks shouldn't put caches out if they can't take care of 'em.

 

Found one once that replaced a full log (actually only one side used) with a 1/4 of a calendar page, another a strip off a auto dealer's bill.

Little angels... :)

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FWIW, our local forum has a "Non-Owner Maintenance Thank You" thread, where cache owners thank those who have helped them by performing maintenance.

 

I like the idea of keeping it personal – a personal favor for the cache owner, and a personal "thank you" from the cache owner – rather than turning into another statistic or another score.

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By the same token you could say to do away with the favorites and someone who likes your cache can just write nice log or a thank you email. The favorites is a way to reward a cache owner for hiding a good hide and publicly display that rating.... and entice other owners to hide quality hides. I guess there's no desire to reward a cache seeker for being a good cacher and try to entice folks to be a better more considerate cacher. Got it, rewards are only for owners.

 

Not sure about everyone else but when that log sheet is wet on that ten mile hike I'd rather encourage the cacher standing at GZ to replace it rather than forcing the owner to make the hike just to do that. That would seem to be encouragement to have cache owners lean towards PAG's and save the trouble. Sorry some folks have had bad experiences with people trying to help, I have had great experiences from good cachers helping, was just looking four a better way to reward them other than a thank you email. And if what someone did didn't "help", no reward acknowledgments given, pretty simple.

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Issue is they are only doing it out of the goodness of their heart.

 

I think it's better to leave it that way.

 

This would entice many geocachers to "try" to help out and earn kudos from cache owners or fellow cachers,...

 

Not necessarily so. Those folks that are inclined to help, will continue to do so regardless of any external rewards. I suspect it would only provoke those folks not inclined to help for it's own sake, to merely find a way to "game the system" in order to acquire the reward. This type of behavior seems to be a "Law of the Internet".

 

It would also keep geocaches maintained better...

 

This seems unlikely. I believe it will merely delay the inevitable.

 

Kind of reminds me of the story of the "pay it forward" story at a coffee shop. The first couple of participants were appreciative and found it fun to buy coffee for the person behind them in line. It didn't take long before folks started feeling uncomfortable at the thought of "who's going to break the chain..." It seems like these seeming "random acts of kindness" don't take long to turn into an obligation, thus pretty much ruining the good feelings they are intended to foster.

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If this feature was implemented, it would be simply a matter of time before:

-- People would submit Challenge Caches based on achieving 50, 100 and 500 "Angel Points."

-- Project-GC would have an "Angel Point" leaderboard.

-- The FindStatGen macro in GSAK would be updated to display Angel Point totals, Angel Points over time, and Angel Points by Difficulty and Terrain.

-- Cache Owners would receive emails begging for Angel Points over the most minor maintenance tasks ("But I put the cache back in the tree!").

-- There would be forum threads disputing whether it's bad form for a finder to beg for Angel Points or for a Cache Owner to "deny" them.

 

No, just rely on good geocachers to keep on doing what they would likely do anyways -- all without signalling to cache owners that they need not worry about maintenance obligations.

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a way to award compliments/awards/kudos/gold stars to individual geocachers for being quality geocachers or helping fix a log or repair a hide for an owner?

 

If I had the ability to award some kind of stat to finders, it would be for logs I enjoyed reading and pics I enjoyed looking at - this is "quality" i seek in a finder. (a recent DNF completely cracked me up - "trail wet overgrown, hard to navigate. Banana spider took my wallet and my watch, I scurried home" - if that's not worth a "point" what is? )

 

A prolific hider myself, If the website started awarded a stat for unsolicited maintenance, I'd add a note to my caches asking that finders log the need for maintenance, and leave it to me. I'd never award a point, so i wouldn't have to deal with people working on that stat.

 

I'm also uncertain as to how you think this would work? Cache owners get to assign Angel Awards? what, one per hide? one per hide per month? one per hide per X number of finds/months? more points if their hides have a bunch of unaddressed NM logs and they really need the help? or no points unless their hides have NO unaddressed NM logs and they really don't need the help?

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I like a good well written entertaining log, that keeps my interest in geocaching as much as finding caches. Which is why I strive to place caches that entice people to write more than TFTC. That's my reward, don't need favorites points. Why was that ever implemented? Like clicking off a favorite point means something more than a well written log? And gather a dozen cachers together and you'll get a dozen different ideas of what a "good" cache is, the points are meaningless. But if you think that the favorite points carry weight and somehow reward an owner and show the cache is possibly better than the next one, the same can be said to reward a cacher with owner's favorite points for writing a good log or being a cache angel. Kind of like rewarding a gym for being a good pace to work out but not wanting to reward a customer who is dedicated, respectful, and curteous. Was just a thought as I like to think that a good respectful cacher would get as much out of an owner favorite point as an owner gets out of a cachers favorite point.

 

And a long time ago went thru a toll booth and got told to go on as the person in front of me paid for me out of their generosity. To this day I will often pay for the person behind me. Some of us feel that kindness gets rewarded with continued kindness and we don't think the worst of the people around us. Cautiously optimistic beats pessimism hands down.

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The difference between Favorite Points and Angel Points is that Favorite Points (1) arguably encourage people to hide better caches (whether because of location, container, hiding method, cache page or otherwise), and (2) Favorite Points are a valuable tool to finders who want to search for the "best" caches in an area filled with lots of "less than best" caches. Angel Points do not serve a positive purpose other than making one person feel good, and they have a potential negative effect on the owner's view of cache maintenance obligations as noted above.

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Last I checked favorite points can be awarded to any geocache and it's subjectively up to what a particular cacher thinks is their favorite type of cache. Which at last check was almost as many different types as there are geocachers. Someone who hates being more than ten feet from their air conditioned car won't be adding favorite points to a five mile hike. Someone who hates PAG's won't be putting favorites on those. And the "good cacher" points would be for showing good caching practices including putting a cache back that was not properly re-hidden, helping dry out a we log in a cache that wasn't sealed properly, alerting the owner of some new detrimental condition near gz, writing an entertaining log story, adding some nice pictures to the page, and many things you'd want to thank a considerate, creative cacher for. Not just maintenance. Not sure how that would have negative effects since you wouldn't even see that unless you looked at their profile page. People might get competitive trying to be a better cacher than someone else??? That's like assuming an owner will get ticked because someone found their cache and didn't give it a favorite point or only wrote tftc.

 

I'll just continue to write grateful thank you emails when someone does something helpful or enters a very entertaining log and do what I can to make people feel good, I'd hope feeling good and enjoying themselves is why most people geocache. But that's just my opinion.

Edited by infiniteMPG
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If this feature was implemented, it would be simply a matter of time before:

-- People would submit Challenge Caches based on achieving 50, 100 and 500 "Angel Points."

-- Project-GC would have an "Angel Point" leaderboard.

-- The FindStatGen macro in GSAK would be updated to display Angel Point totals, Angel Points over time, and Angel Points by Difficulty and Terrain.

-- Cache Owners would receive emails begging for Angel Points over the most minor maintenance tasks ("But I put the cache back in the tree!").

-- There would be forum threads disputing whether it's bad form for a finder to beg for Angel Points or for a Cache Owner to "deny" them.

 

 

- Crappy abandoned caches would never go away

 

It's already difficult as is, with many throwdown caches so that finders can "legitimately" (at least in their mind) qualify for a find when a cache is not there. Or add a scrap of paper to a moldy old broken unmaintained cache that has numerous "wet log" notes or NMs going back years, with an active cache owner who keeps putting out more and more power trail caches. Some people don't consider it a find unless they can write in the paper log, so they add a scrap of paper to the worst caches. Caches that should be archived, not propped up.

Edited by L0ne.R
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That's my reward, don't need favorites points. Why was that ever implemented?

 

A lot of us were looking for a way to help separate the wheat from the chaff. A way to recommend good caches to others. It worked well for the first few years. Still does an adequate job. Way better than not having FPs. Way too much chaff out there to sort through. Angel points would prolong the eventual demise of abandoned caches that are in disrepair or replaced with throwdowns. I doubt that have a good effect on quality hides. Usually quality hides have quality cache owners who want to keep their hides in good shape, as they intended. So checking on those quality hides comes with the desire to maintain a quality experience.

 

 

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- Cache found on ground and not in tree, but left on ground as it's the owner's responsibility to come put it back.

 

- Decon not snapped shut, contents wet. Put back as found, not sealed again. If owner meant for it to be sealed they can come close it.

 

- Container not covered, fully exposed to muggles, owner needs to get out here and pick the moss up from beside it and cover it.

 

- Ten mile hike to final, log sheet full, have replacement but a responsible cache owner will hike out to replace it.

 

- Dangerous! Cache owner can just trek out here and find out for themselves.

 

..... said no geocachers ever.

 

What defines a "good" cache?!?!? That's in the eye of the GPS holder. I know cachers that won't do anything but PAG's, will their favorite points help? And should get rid of that rating title for number of posts on the GC forums, that's just a way to make someone feel good about how much they post (just kidding). OP was just looking for a way to acknowledge someone helping make GC a better experience. I'll stick with thank you emails.

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- Cache found on ground and not in tree, but left on ground as it's the owner's responsibility to come put it back.

 

- Decon not snapped shut, contents wet. Put back as found, not sealed again. If owner meant for it to be sealed they can come close it.

 

- Container not covered, fully exposed to muggles, owner needs to get out here and pick the moss up from beside it and cover it.

 

- Ten mile hike to final, log sheet full, have replacement but a responsible cache owner will hike out to replace it.

 

- Dangerous! Cache owner can just trek out here and find out for themselves.

 

..... said no geocachers ever.

 

What defines a "good" cache?!?!? That's in the eye of the GPS holder. I know cachers that won't do anything but PAG's, will their favorite points help? And should get rid of that rating title for number of posts on the GC forums, that's just a way to make someone feel good about how much they post (just kidding). OP was just looking for a way to acknowledge someone helping make GC a better experience. I'll stick with thank you emails.

 

You can publicly thank finders who say something about putting the cache back better than they found it. Or snapping down a decon lid, or wiping down the condensation in a cache. Add a Note after their log. Or you can email them to personally thank them, since they are unikely to see your follow-up note on your cache page.

 

Regarding the replacement of a full log. In our case, we have left a note after a "full log" online log asking the next finder(s) if they would mind putting in a bit of paper to tide the cache over for a couple of weeks until we could get there. That cache was a 2 hour drive away, but we could usually get to it within 2-3 weeks (a nice excuse to go visit my sister and family). Also, got my brother-in-law to add a log for us a couple of times over it's 6 year lifespan.

Edited by L0ne.R
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Point well made and we do post thank you logs and send emails when folks are nice and request a little help when something simple is needed. Thought maybe it could be made formal but guess not. Would be proud to have a cacher say they had 30 kudos points for writing good logs and helping out. Had people replace micro containers when pruning wiped out gz, or put stuff in an extra baggie when the old one's getting ragged, and quite a few other things that have kept me from having to squeeze in a day long hike while working full time to replace a full log. I actually look forward to cache within ten miles from home needing maintenance, gives me an excuse for a nice after work bike ride :0)

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It would also keep geocaches maintained better...
This seems unlikely. I believe it will merely delay the inevitable.
Yeah, I think people will continue to help out good caches, especially more remote ones (e.g., the proverbial "ten mile hike"). My concern with Angel Points is that the leaky, broken, abandoned caches would continue to limp along as people stuffed dry scraps of paper in them in an effort to qualify for the Angel Points challenge caches, or to move up the Angel Points leader boards. And it really doesn't matter whether they actually received an Angel Point; the motivation to try for one would be there.
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Not sure where this derailed but for a while have been speaking about Kacher Kudos or something, get points for the little maintenance help but heavily for writing good logs, uploading impressive pictures, re-hiding caches well when others failed to, alerting cache owners of issues near GZ or with the cache, lots of things.

 

Guess I'm also not clear on what is wrong with a cache limping along... for many of us the location is as much, if not more, of the adventure than the container. The new game scanning qr codes doesn't even have a container, the hunt is the adventure. If a cache limps along it's still bringing people to the site, they're still logging finds. Signing a nano log is a pain but people still do it, just like people sign a soggy wet log sheet. Guess some folks would rather have nothing than a less then stellar container or hide. :unsure:

Edited by infiniteMPG
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I must be living in a completely different cache environment, as those limping-along, "bring some paper, it usually needs it..." caches are rarely if ever at decent, noteworthy locations here.

- But a lpc in a parking lot is a location. Adventure, not so much.

 

I'm one of the "some folks..." who have no problem passing by a dozen containers that should've been archived years ago (but keep getting new paper shoved in) just to get to the one I was headed for.

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Would seriously hope that the location is what attracts most folks to the cache, not the log paper. Doubtful someone sees a cache at a very interesting spot, nice view, amazing sunsets, lots of photographic opportunities, soft sand, but OH NO... the log sheet has been limping along. Ahhh, but that lamp post skirt has a great new log sheet in a brand new container!!! Off we go!!! :rolleyes:

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I see the motivation, but I also see oh so many ways it could go wrong. As others have said:-

 

* It becomes a competition in itself, and one easily subject to "gaming the system"

* People will come to expect these points for next to nothing

* It legitimises the attitude of some COs that finders, not they, should be maintaining their caches

* It promotes prolonging the life of abandoned/unloved caches

* It promotes throwdowns.

 

On balance, I think the negatives far outweigh the positives. Send an email, write a log, buy the angel a drink at the next event, but don't make it an official stat or side-game.

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If there was a big desire to make geocaching more memorable and less competitive then things like power trails should be eliminated as they have no purpose but boosting find numbers and increasing hide numbers, favorites should be categorized as they are like giving points for favorite songs, everyone has their own tastes and it biases a cache favorite's rating on personal preferences, and make cachers have a certain number of finds before they can hide a cache or mark a cache as needing maintenance or needs to be archived. Those things are massively more detrimental to the game than a cache at a memorable spot that has had cachers replace the full or wet log sheet. But then again, just my opinion...

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Would seriously hope that the location is what attracts most folks to the cache, not the log paper. Doubtful someone sees a cache at a very interesting spot, nice view, amazing sunsets, lots of photographic opportunities, soft sand, but OH NO... the log sheet has been limping along. Ahhh, but that lamp post skirt has a great new log sheet in a brand new container!!! Off we go!!! :rolleyes:

 

A nice location can be spoiled by a messy cache experience.

 

Depends of course on the degree of ruin the cache is in. A full log in otherwise good shape is not a big deal, there's usually some room somewhere in the log. But it irks when you read the logs to see that multiple logs going back months, sometimes years say something about a full log and the owner does nothing. What's worse is when that owner doesn't replace full logs but keeps planting more caches. Especially annoying when they saturate areas leaving no room for others to plant and then essentially abandon their placements. Angel rewards would encourage more of this behaviour.

Anyway, take heart, we have little to no influence on what Groundspeak does with their site. Because we see some serious issues with this idea, it doesn't mean the idea wouldn't be implemented. Someday they may even decide that logbook/sheets are not necessary anymore.

 

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If there was a big desire to make geocaching more memorable and less competitive then things like power trails should be eliminated as they have no purpose but boosting find numbers and increasing hide numbers,
I'm with you so far. (And FWIW, I agree.)

 

favorites should be categorized as they are like giving points for favorite songs, everyone has their own tastes and it biases a cache favorite's rating on personal preferences,
I would love it if the Favorites system could correlate my preferences with those of others, to show me caches that were enjoyed by people with similar preferences to my own. In the meantime, it serves as an indication of which caches have been marked as a Favorite by someone (with no indication of the reason), and it's up to each potential seeker to investigate further.

 

and make cachers have a certain number of finds before they can hide a cache or mark a cache as needing maintenance or needs to be archived.
You lost me here. I think the number of online Find logs is the wrong measure for hiding a cache. And I think newbies need to learn to use NM and NA correctly from the beginning, and not be told that they are somehow unworthy of using such logs.
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If there was a big desire to make geocaching more memorable and less competitive then things like power trails should be eliminated as they have no purpose but boosting find numbers and increasing hide numbers,
I'm with you so far. (And FWIW, I agree.)

 

and a +1

 

 

favorites should be categorized as they are like giving points for favorite songs, everyone has their own tastes and it biases a cache favorite's rating on personal preferences,
I would love it if the Favorites system could correlate my preferences with those of others, to show me caches that were enjoyed by people with similar preferences to my own.

 

This sort of relationship could be represented using a semantic web application. As it turns out, much of the work that I do relates to using and developing a open source semantic web application that was created in the department where I work. The problem is that an important piece of data is missing; that is, identifying the preferences by other people. I suppose one might be able to infer those some of those preferences by looking at various statistics but it's not going to be very accurate.

 

 

and make cachers have a certain number of finds before they can hide a cache or mark a cache as needing maintenance or needs to be archived.

 

You lost me here. I think the number of online Find logs is the wrong measure for hiding a cache.

 

Agreed. Requiring a minimum number of finds before someone can hide a cache also has a major flaw. It would be easy to qualify to hide a cache in areas which are already saturated with caches, but difficult if not nearly impossible (depending on what the minimum is) to qualify in areas with very few caches that already exist.

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