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HikingSeal
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And what would be your T rating? According to reaching the trailhead or according to the hike?

What does it matter to you?

If you can do the hike, then the T rating is irrelevant. What if it's listed as 1 in the description because wheelchairs can meet up with everyone at parking for a half hour, but the narcissa says the hike terrain itself is more like a T3? There you go. There's your terrain.

 

Or do you only care about your stats?

Edited by thebruce0
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Come to my hiking event.

 

Sign-in starts at 9:30am.

 

Departing from the trailhead at 10am.

 

The trail is 10km long, so wear sturdy footwear and come dressed for variable weather. Don't forget to bring sunscreen, bug spray, snacks, and lots of water.

 

And what would be your T rating? According to reaching the trailhead or according to the hike?

 

If I couldn't work it out with the reviewer to have it according to the hike, I would throw a hissy fit and delete my account include detailed information about the hike on the cache page instead.

 

Since the terrain rating is meant to be informative, not a score or reward, this would be perfectly fine for anybody of sense and reason.

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Come to my bowling event.

 

It is at the same bowling alley we always use.

 

This has historically been a 1/1 event because anybody can find it and even those in wheelchairs can participate in the bowling.

 

This year due to the recent flooding you will need to take a kayak to get to the door of the bowling alley.

 

Terrain is now "special equipment required" to get to the location, now a T5. This should help your terrain ratio.

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I wasn't talking to you.... <_<

 

Yes, I know, but the post you replied to expressed among others the difference between a group hike and what is sold as hiking event here very well.

While there are people who prefer it the way without the group, there are others for whom it's the other way round.

:blink:

What was that?

 

I still wasn't responding to you. But now I am.

 

Here's the thing: thebruce0 has provided alternatives--AGAIN--to show that you can get what you want. If it is the hike you want to be sure is "included" (read: REQUIRED to get to the event), then you would post it at the summit. The owner can encourage people to coordinate their approach so that they can meet, greet, and socialize on the way up to the event. D1/T>1

 

The alternative is as we've discussed, ad nauseum: Event at trailhead allowing 30 minutes to be met, and the event starts at the listed coordinates. The hike is encouraged, and most (especially in your area where this is, apparently, "more common") will go on the hike together. The duration for the hike time is included in the description, and people are clearly encouraged to take part in the hike. D1/T1

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And what would be your T rating? According to reaching the trailhead or according to the hike?

What does it matter to you?

 

Because if the T rating is 1*, then it is obvious that the hike is not meant as what the event (in the sense of the geocaching event) is about.

 

I think that it is enough to not delete logs of those who visit events by just visiting the meeting location. I do not think that special encouragement

needs to be sent out to attend events against their spirit. If the terrain is rated with 1, then the message is a different one and not attending the hike will not

be something against the spirit, but just as welcome as an active participation.

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And what would be your T rating? According to reaching the trailhead or according to the hike?

What does it matter to you?

 

Because if the T rating is 1*, then it is obvious that the hike is not meant as what the event (in the sense of the geocaching event) is about.

 

I think that it is enough to not delete logs of those who visit events by just visiting the meeting location. I do not think that special encouragement

needs to be sent out to attend events against their spirit. If the terrain is rated with 1, then the message is a different one and not attending the hike will not

be something against the spirit, but just as welcome as an active participation.

BALONEY!

 

You must have some people who can't read in your area... :unsure:

 

The hike is implied, and instead of a requirement, you've suddenly encouraged others, who might not have otherwise attended because of the hike "requirement", to attend the event.

 

Then, if you're nice to them, they might realize that they enjoyed socializing, and will come along on the hike, and/or on future hikes.

 

But only if you don't mention eating or drinking anything, amiright? :P

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And what would be your T rating? According to reaching the trailhead or according to the hike?

What does it matter to you?

 

Because if the T rating is 1*, then it is obvious that the hike is not meant as what the event (in the sense of the geocaching event) is about.

 

I think that it is enough to not delete logs of those who visit events by just visiting the meeting location. I do not think that special encouragement

needs to be sent out to attend events against their spirit. If the terrain is rated with 1, then the message is a different one and not attending the hike will not

be something against the spirit, but just as welcome as an active participation.

 

If it's just a blanket thing that events are 1/1, then people know they need to look more closely at the cache page to figure out if the event is suitable for them.

 

I don't think anything needs to be said about actually participating in the hike. It's evident in the description that it's meant to be a hike.

 

Whether or not people choose to attend without hiking is really beside the point, and not worth worrying about. Why wouldn't they be welcome? Oh heavens, people might have a friendly chat during the half hour sign-in? What is that about? It has no impact on the event.

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I think that it is enough to not delete logs of those who visit events by just visiting the meeting location.

 

So if I understand you correctly:

 

1. Rate the Event for the hiking portion of the Event.

2. Allow everyone to log the Event that shows up at the trailhead, regardless of whether they attend the hiking portion of the hike.

 

That idea should be worth at least a half dozen threads on how people are getting credit for an Event they didn't attend. I think that has about as much chance of working as a Skype Event.

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I think that it is enough to not delete logs of those who visit events by just visiting the meeting location.

 

So if I understand you correctly:

 

1. Rate the Event for the hiking portion of the Event.

2. Allow everyone to log the Event that shows up at the trailhead, regardless of whether they attend the hiking portion of the hike.

 

That idea should be worth at least a half dozen threads on how people are getting credit for an Event they didn't attend. I think that has about as much chance of working as a Skype Event.

Challenge caches have give an imporance to the D/T ratings that they didn't traditionally have. I'm sure there are complaints when someone logs a find on a puzzle that their friend solved has gotten some difficulty rating they "don't deserve". If that is the issue, maybe the quidelines for fizzy challenges should change to not count events or puzzies?

 

I personally have no issue with an event having D/T ratings based on the most difficult optional activity. And of course since I don't log find logs I don't care that someone who does gets that fizzy challenge grid square filled in.

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I wish the people who aren't interested in a thread would just ignore the thread and look at all the threads they are interested in instead.

 

Sheesh, if I posted "guh, wish people would stop talking about this" on every topic that was uninteresting to me, it would be three-quarters of all the posts.

 

You could always start thread about yourself.

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I think that it is enough to not delete logs of those who visit events by just visiting the meeting location.

 

So if I understand you correctly:

 

1. Rate the Event for the hiking portion of the Event.

2. Allow everyone to log the Event that shows up at the trailhead, regardless of whether they attend the hiking portion of the hike.

 

That idea should be worth at least a half dozen threads on how people are getting credit for an Event they didn't attend. I think that has about as much chance of working as a Skype Event.

 

But what is different now except the rating part?

 

The reviewers can still reject an event if it is an absurd D/T rating.

 

The only issue is of course that people who do not get for a 3* hike, end up with a 3* event but that seems more reasonable to me than if those who go for the 3* hike end up with 1* as it cares more

about those who attended the event in the intended way. That's why I used the argument that puzzle caches are not all rated as D=1* despite some visit them without solving the puzzles and multi caches with a final that is reachable by car are not rated as T=1* just because someone can obtain the final coordinates and just visit the final.

 

If someone organizes a party they will send out invitations saying when the party starts, probably something about when it is planned to end but they will not write "you may leave after 1 minute if you wish" while of course in reality noone will be hindered to leave after 1 minute. Do we really need that many explicit invitations to visit an event which has a certain purpose against its spirit?

I don't think so.

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And what would be your T rating? According to reaching the trailhead or according to the hike?

What does it matter to you?

 

Because if the T rating is 1*, then it is obvious that the hike is not meant as what the event (in the sense of the geocaching event) is about.

 

I think that it is enough to not delete logs of those who visit events by just visiting the meeting location. I do not think that special encouragement

needs to be sent out to attend events against their spirit. If the terrain is rated with 1, then the message is a different one and not attending the hike will not

be something against the spirit, but just as welcome as an active participation.

BALONEY!

 

You must have some people who can't read in your area... :unsure:

 

It's not about the people in my area. It's about what Groundspeak recognizes as event. If they enforce the T=1 rating,

the message to me is that the hike happens outside of the event and thus the Groundspeak event ends before the hike gets started.

So it means that they do not acknowledge a bit that socializing takes also place at the hike and only accept the socializing at the posted coordinates.

Edited by cezanne
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I think that it is enough to not delete logs of those who visit events by just visiting the meeting location.

 

So if I understand you correctly:

 

1. Rate the Event for the hiking portion of the Event.

2. Allow everyone to log the Event that shows up at the trailhead, regardless of whether they attend the hiking portion of the hike.

 

That idea should be worth at least a half dozen threads on how people are getting credit for an Event they didn't attend. I think that has about as much chance of working as a Skype Event.

 

But what is different now except the rating part?

 

The reviewers can still reject an event if it is an absurd D/T rating.

 

The only issue is of course that people who do not get for a 3* hike, end up with a 3* event but that seems more reasonable to me than if those who go for the 3* hike end up with 1* as it cares more

about those who attended the event in the intended way. That's why I used the argument that puzzle caches are not all rated as D=1* despite some visit them without solving the puzzles and multi caches with a final that is reachable by car are not rated as T=1* just because someone can obtain the final coordinates and just visit the final.

 

If someone organizes a party they will send out invitations saying when the party starts, probably something about when it is planned to end but they will not write "you may leave after 1 minute if you wish" while of course in reality noone will be hindered to leave after 1 minute. Do we really need that many explicit invitations to visit an event which has a certain purpose against its spirit?

I don't think so.

If one's cache is "rejected", and one believes that it should be allowed to be published, one can email Groundspeak Appeals to discuss the intended case for publication.

 

Again, you're talking about "deserving" a rating for a cache. D/T ratings are, at a basic and fundamental level, simply a guide for how difficult it is to find a cache, and what terrain should be expected in getting to the cache site. In the case of an event were the trailhead is the meeting point, if that site is wheelchair accessible, the cache should be rated with a T1. The terrain ratings follow according to the online rating system (which you've rejected outright many times for some reason or another), and can be adjusted to reflect the terrain for getting to the coordinates for the cache.

 

(I have a feeling you'll now derail even further with a discussion about how you do not find the online rating system accurate. Then you'll talk about how the descriptions in the Help Center apply for your case, but not in others. Thus, you'll dismiss any notion that there should be any consistency whatsoever across regions, including rating caches properly or that Event Caches must still follow the established guidelines for publication.)

 

You state above in the second bolded statement that you believe geocachers "deserve" a rating for certain caches completed. This also goes against your claims that this "isn't about a side-game". You are, in essence, stating clearly here--again--that you believe there is a reward for a geocache's D/T ratings, and geocachers should essentially collect ratings in the way they please. Well, there's your problem.

 

Side games and "deserving" a rating are not parts of the game we play at Geocaching.com. Ratings are for information, and happen to also be used for challenge caches. Those challenge caches assign a "value" to a specific rating, and more rare rating combinations are likely to be at a premium of desire within some communities. However, if the rating does not exist in an accurate, honest use within a geocache, one might hope they can twist an event somehow to get a rating they desire. (See previous comment with odd rating combinations for each annum of a skating event at the same site each year, e.g.)

 

So, all you need to worry about, cezanne, is following the guidelines, and also rating caches appropriately according to the Help Center and the online rating tool Groundspeak provides.

 

You wish that events would provide a certain rating, which they can not unless they are rated properly. Groundspeak has now clarified TWICE in ways which rip your soul from your body and leave you in sadness. Events aren't what you've grown accustomed to, and that's some whistling, grating cognitive dissonance, isn't it? You've woken from a dream world which has been bent, twisted, and misinterpreted for years. Now that Groundspeak is clarifying things in a way that changes your reality, and replaces it with the reality of how Groundspeak intended it all along.

 

You're sad about this. But you've simply proven why Groundspeak needed to clarify things--your region has been abusing and misinterpreting the guidelines for too long. Sorry about that.

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If one's cache is "rejected", and one believes that it should be allowed to be published, one can email Groundspeak Appeals to discuss the intended case for publication.

 

Not really an option when the guidelines read as they read now and the reviewers obtained guidance on how to deal with the ratings of events.

 

It all boils down to the missing recognition of the activities which are not required for logging an attended log as parts of the geocaching event.

 

In the case of an event were the trailhead is the meeting point, if that site is wheelchair accessible, the cache should be rated with a T1.

 

But only if the idea of the event is to stay there. That's pretty obvious, isn't it?

 

If the hike is the event, then a T1 rating would be wrong and silly (and the online tool says very much the same).

 

If the meeting at the trailhead is seen as the event, then of course T1 is correct, but it#s the first part I have an issue with. For me the meeting at the trailhead is the compromise to allow those who absolutely want to log an attended log under all means to do so.

 

I would feel perfectly comfortable if all hike participants (except the event host) came just in time for the start of the hike leaving all those alone at the trailhead with the event host who come for logging.

Edited by cezanne
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And what would be your T rating? According to reaching the trailhead or according to the hike?

What does it matter to you?

 

Because if the T rating is 1*, then it is obvious that the hike is not meant as what the event (in the sense of the geocaching event) is about.

 

I think that it is enough to not delete logs of those who visit events by just visiting the meeting location. I do not think that special encouragement

needs to be sent out to attend events against their spirit. If the terrain is rated with 1, then the message is a different one and not attending the hike will not

be something against the spirit, but just as welcome as an active participation.

BALONEY!

 

You must have some people who can't read in your area... :unsure:

 

It's not about the people in my area. It's about what Groundspeak recognizes as event. If they enforce the T=1 rating,

the message to me is that the hike happens outside of the event and thus the Groundspeak event ends before the hike gets started.

So it means that they do not acknowledge a bit that socializing takes also place at the hike and only accept the socializing at the posted coordinates.

NO. nonononononono. No.

 

What they are saying is that the socializing can occur in whatever way you like, but the event needs to meet muster under 5 items: Non commercial. Not about a cache hunt. At the listed coordinates. Has a clear start and end time. Lasts a minimum of 30 minutes.

 

We've shown you how to have the socialization you want and still meet the guidelines. Now you're shifting into an argument that it is about ratings for caches, which is sadly not something Events get any special treatment for. If your event can be logged by any who arrive at the listed coordinates during the time specified (according to the guidelines), and that does not require the traverse of difficult terrain, it will have a lower rating. A parking lot, a trailhead accessed by vehicle (for example), or a skating rink you arrive at without impediment, that would be a T1 or perhaps at best a T1.5.

 

Sorry you're going to be filled with sadness. You've shown your cards, and many have lost any pity...and others have lost their patience as well.

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What they are saying is that the socializing can occur in whatever way you like, but the event needs to meet muster under 5 items: Non commercial. Not about a cache hunt. At the listed coordinates. Has a clear start and end time. Lasts a minimum of 30 minutes.

 

But that means that one is not allowed to move while socializing. Pretty stupid.

 

What has been posted are methods how one can use a geocache event listing to get together people for a hike which is then however not part of the event. If it were, the T rating and the end time of the event

could be chosen accordingly to take into account the hike.

 

It's pretty straightforward that Groundspeak cannot prohibit cachers to go for a hike. The bad thing is that they make it impossible to go on a hike as part of the geocaching event.

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If one's cache is "rejected", and one believes that it should be allowed to be published, one can email Groundspeak Appeals to discuss the intended case for publication.

 

Not really an option when the guidelines read as they read now and the reviewers obtained guidance on how to deal with the ratings of events.

 

It all boils down to the missing recognition of the activities which are not required for logging an attended log as parts of the geocaching event.

You really are a Debbie Downer, aren't you? Eeyore, perhaps? Eternal pessimist?

 

If someone has a problem with how their cache was not published, they can take it up with Groundspeak via Appeals. I have been successful in most (if not all) of my appeals when I can honestly say that the cache is aligned with the guidelines and TOU. I've shown you how to get your preferred Event Caches published according to the Guidelines, and now you've moved the goal by arguing about ratings as well. This isn't going to last very long, cezanne.

 

In the case of an event were the trailhead is the meeting point, if that site is wheelchair accessible, the cache should be rated with a T1.

 

But only if the idea of the event is to stay there. That's pretty obvious, isn't it?

NO!

 

If the event moves, you can't account for that in the ratings. The event must meet the 5 criteria for publication, and moving is not allowed. You can have a part of the event be "active", such as a hike, but the event must take place at the coordinates, have a start and end time, and last for a minimum of 30 minutes.

 

If the hike is the event, then a T1 rating would be wrong and silly (and the online tool says very much the same).

NO! Because you rate the Event location, not the hike. The Event Cache is the part that needs to meet the guidelines--At the coordinates, has a start and end time, and lasts for at least 30 minutes. The hike is PART of the event, but not the part that needs to meet muster for a Groundspeak Geocaching.com Event Cache.

 

THIS is why I keep trying to help you understand that there are "events" and there are "Event Caches". One can include whatever awesome, fun stuff you want, and can be part of the other. The other needs to clearly meet publication guidelines.

 

The guidelines also make it clear that there is a way to account for other activities within the Event Cache.

 

How much more spoon feeding do you need?

 

If the meeting at the trailhead is seen as the event, then of course T1 is correct, but it#s the first part I have an issue with. For me the meeting at the trailhead is the compromise to allow those who absolutely want to log an attended log under all means to do so.

 

I would feel perfectly comfortable if all hike participants (except the event host) came just in time for the start of the hike leaving all those alone at the trailhead with the event host who come for logging.

Good. The hike participants can all show up at the end of the 30-minute period and still log an "Attended". Heck, whatever the listing owner says, goes! They can allow anyone they want to log "Attended" if they like.

 

Satisfied? You should be. But I'll guess this troll needs more feeding... <_<

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What they are saying is that the socializing can occur in whatever way you like, but the event needs to meet muster under 5 items: Non commercial. Not about a cache hunt. At the listed coordinates. Has a clear start and end time. Lasts a minimum of 30 minutes.

 

But that means that one is not allowed to move while socializing. Pretty stupid.

NO it DOESN'T!

 

It just means that, to pass muster for publication, you need to meet the 5 criteria. Once that is met, you're welcome to do as you please. The "hike" can still be part of the event, and the owner of the listing can encourage people to attend by asking, or by simply tagging on as they have in previous iterations of their events. If people like to hike, they'll join the hike. And the owner of the listing can still state clearly on their page that the goal is to meet and go hiking. There's no problem, cezanne...you're just creating one.

 

What has been posted are methods how one can use a geocache event listing to get together people for a hike which is then however not part of the event. If it were, the T rating and the end time of the event

could be chosen accordingly to take into account the hike.

NO, not possible. Moving events aren't allowed. The T rating reflects what it takes to get to the coordinates listed for the Event Cache. It's simple. <_<

 

It's pretty straightforward that Groundspeak cannot prohibit cachers to go for a hike. The bad thing is that they make it impossible to go on a hike as part of the geocaching event.

Not true. You really have got to get off of this idea.

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If someone has a problem with how their cache was not published, they can take it up with Groundspeak via Appeals. I have been successful in most (if not all) of my appeals when I can honestly say that the cache is aligned with the guidelines and TOU. I've shown you how to get your preferred Event Caches published according to the Guidelines,

 

Actually, the problem comes from the fact that I too think that in the way the guidelines are formulated right now they exclude real hiking events because they move away. So appealing would be pretty much senseless as would trying to submit such an event.

 

As your second statement is regarded, you did not show anything of that kind. Actually, you apparently not even have heard back from Groundspeak as your simple and polite question is regarded.

 

If the event moves, you can't account for that in the ratings. The event must meet the 5 criteria for publication, and moving is not allowed.

 

Ok, if moving is not allowed, it exactly means what I'm stating since the start and which has been denied. Hiking events are impossible and the hike will not be part of the

official event.

 

You can have a part of the event be "active", such as a hike, but the event must take place at the coordinates, have a start and end time, and last for a minimum of 30 minutes.

 

But then the hike cannot be part of the event. Is that that difficult to understand? What you write above contradicts itself.

 

Whenever I write hiking event and event I refer to an event on geocaching.com and of course to an event cache and not a privat event of geocachers that Groundspeak never will be able to forbid.

 

If the T rating for an event only applies to the header coordinates, it exactly means what I is my major concern right from the beginning that the acticities are not part of the event cache while

in my opinion a hiking event is about the hike and only exists due to the hike.

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Not really an option when the guidelines read as they read now and the reviewers obtained guidance on how to deal with the ratings of events.

 

Just putting the Guideline revision discussion aside for a moment, I'm curious how these sorts of things play out?

 

It sounds like everyone is welcome to attend and take part in the hike, regardless of experience or fitness level. I understand your concern regarding an accurate rating so that attendees get an accurate picture of the difficulties. I'm assuming there is enough information on the Listing page to give folks enough details to fill in the gaps where it's impossible to judge from the D/T on the page?

 

A couple of questions regarding the above:

 

1. If someone finds themselves in a position that they are unable to continue, is there some allowance made to assure their safe return to the trailhead? Or is it pretty much every man/woman for themselves on these things?

 

2. Are there adequate safeguards in place, for instance, someone in the party has some sort of First Responder training, or someone carries a PLB for a "last resort" sort of situation where an evacuation might be needed?

 

I only ask, because of a rather unnerving experience with a meetup hike I attended that was led by a close friend. The hike was in the 30 km range with several thousand feet of elevation gain on some fairly sketchy trail. I only knew a couple of people personally in the party of 30 or so attendees, and it was pretty apparent to me that some of these folks were going on there first or second backcountry hike. I kept thinking through the hike that we would be in deep doo-doo if one or more people got seriously injured, which was a distinct possibility on that particular trail. I've never gone back to the website because of the lack of control there seems to be, and really, you could end up with just about anyone on these things that are arranged off the internet.

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It's pretty straightforward that Groundspeak cannot prohibit cachers to go for a hike. The bad thing is that they make it impossible to go on a hike as part of the geocaching event.

 

What a crock. Now you are just makin' stuff up for the sake of filling space..

 

No, I'm not. It's true and NeverSummer also just wrote the same in his post. The difference is just that he does not mind and I do mind.

Some people here argue that the hike can still take place and that they do not care whether it is part of the geocaching event. I do care about that very much and it's my major point. All other points are just consequences.

Edited by cezanne
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If someone has a problem with how their cache was not published, they can take it up with Groundspeak via Appeals. I have been successful in most (if not all) of my appeals when I can honestly say that the cache is aligned with the guidelines and TOU. I've shown you how to get your preferred Event Caches published according to the Guidelines,

 

Actually, the problem comes from the fact that I too think that in the way the guidelines are formulated right now they exclude real hiking events because they move away. So appealing would be pretty much senseless as would trying to submit such an event.

 

As your second statement is regarded, you did not show anything of that kind. Actually, you apparently not even have heard back from Groundspeak as your simple and polite question is regarded.

Yes, yes I did. Tell me how my event would not meet the 5 criteria for publication, and then tell me how my appeal would go if I appealed a Reviewer's decision.

 

Yeah, I thought so... :angry:

 

If the event moves, you can't account for that in the ratings. The event must meet the 5 criteria for publication, and moving is not allowed.

 

Ok, if moving is not allowed, it exactly means what I'm stating since the start and which has been denied. Hiking events are impossible and the hike will not be part of the

official event.

Sure, you're right. As far as YOU are concerned, this will not allow you to have the event you like. But as far as the rest of us are concerned, you'd still get the event you would like. This is why we keep saying you're being obtuse.

 

We can all see how the Event Cache can still have the implication and direct statement that the Event Cache is about having a hike. You just can't get over the fact that there are events, and Event Caches.

 

You can have a part of the event be "active", such as a hike, but the event must take place at the coordinates, have a start and end time, and last for a minimum of 30 minutes.

 

But then the hike cannot be part of the event. Is that that difficult to understand? What you write above contradicts itself.

NO, it DOESN'T. You can list on your Event Cache page that you will have a hike starting and ending at whatever time you decide.

 

Remember when you said that if one could publish an event as I (and others) have described, you'd be happy? Well, it sounds like you're walking that back pretty far. Get over yourself.

 

Whenever I write hiking event and event I refer to an event on geocaching.com and of course to an event cache and not a privat event of geocachers that Groundspeak never will be able to forbid.

 

If the T rating for an event only applies to the header coordinates, it exactly means what I is my major concern right from the beginning that the acticities are not part of the event cache while

in my opinion a hiking event is about the hike and only exists due to the hike.

Because that's your opinion. Your opinion doesn't matter if the guidelines say otherwise.

 

You can repeat it in your head until you believe it: An event that starts at, and happens for the required minimum of 30 minutes at the listed coordinates, and lists a starting and ending time, it is an Event Cache. If there is a hike that is also listed on the published page, the hike still exists. Then the event is about the hike if you want it to be about the hike. YOU get to decide what you take from each event you attend.

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It's pretty straightforward that Groundspeak cannot prohibit cachers to go for a hike. The bad thing is that they make it impossible to go on a hike as part of the geocaching event.

 

What a crock. Now you are just makin' stuff up for the sake of filling space..

 

No, I'm not. It's true and NeverSummer also just wrote the same in his post. The difference is just that he does not mind and I do mind.

Some people here argue that the hike can still take place and that they do not care whether it is part of the geocaching event. I do care about that very much and it's my major point. All other points are just consequences.

I said NO such thing, cezanne.

 

It is NOT "impossible" to go on a hike as part of the geocaching event. The guidelines have a provision for how to list additional coordinates for additional activities. One can also state what that activity is, and when it will occur right on the cache page.

 

Don't twist my words to support your twisted opinions.

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Sure, you're right. As far as YOU are concerned, this will not allow you to have the event you like. But as far as the rest of us are concerned, you'd still get the event you would like. This is why we keep saying you're being obtuse.

 

I have told you numerous times that when I write event I mean event cache.

 

We can all see how the Event Cache can still have the implication and direct statement that the Event Cache is about having a hike. You just can't get over the fact that there are events, and Event Caches.

 

In the geocaching context they are the same to me.

 

When I write that no hiking events are possible, it always meant to say that one cannot have a hike as geocaching event listed on gc.com due to the recent change.

And that stays true if one adds a 30 minutes period at the start of the hike. Then this 30 minutes ends up as the geocaching event.

 

NO, it DOESN'T. You can list on your Event Cache page that you will have a hike starting and ending at whatever time you decide.

 

Yes, of course I can do so, but that does not make the hike part of the official geocaching event.

 

Remember when you said that if one could publish an event as I (and others) have described, you'd be happy? Well, it sounds like you're walking that back pretty far. Get over yourself.

 

Remember that when I say event I mean event cache. So the hike should be part of the event cache, not part of the event cache listing. I cannot remember a single suggestion brought up that accomplished this in a way that someone in my area could get it published under the new guidelines.

Edited by cezanne
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Sure, you're right. As far as YOU are concerned, this will not allow you to have the event you like. But as far as the rest of us are concerned, you'd still get the event you would like. This is why we keep saying you're being obtuse.

 

I have told you numerous times that when I write event I mean event cache.

But you need to grasp the fact that what you're talking about is an event, and not an Event Cache. There's a reason I keep saying it. I can't see why you keep not seeing it...

 

We can all see how the Event Cache can still have the implication and direct statement that the Event Cache is about having a hike. You just can't get over the fact that there are events, and Event Caches.

 

In the geocaching context they are the same to me.

 

When I write that no hiking events are possible, it always meant to say that one cannot have a hike as geocaching event listed on gc.com due to the recent change.

And that stays true if one adds a 30 minutes period at the start of the hike. Then this 30 minutes ends up as the geocaching event.

Fine. Then resign yourself to your dark place, and let it go. Because that's just how it's going to be in your world if you can't accept the help we're offering.

 

NO, it DOESN'T. You can list on your Event Cache page that you will have a hike starting and ending at whatever time you decide.

 

Yes, of course I can do so, but that does not make the hike part of the official geocaching event.

Oh, for the love of all that is good and holy... <_<

 

Remember when you said that if one could publish an event as I (and others) have described, you'd be happy? Well, it sounds like you're walking that back pretty far. Get over yourself.

 

Remember that when I say event I mean event cache. So the hike should be part of the event cache, not part of the event cache listing. I cannot remember a single suggestion brought up that accomplished this in a way that someone in my area could get it published under the new guidelines.

The Event Cache listing is the event for anyone who reads the event listing. Whatever you say is going to happen at your event is what will happen at the event. All you need to do is meet the 5 criteria for publication.

 

I still DARE YOU to ask someone "in your area" (because they're not your friends...<eyeroll>) to try to publish an Event Cache in the way that I've suggested. I bet it will get published. And you'll get your event.

 

But you won't get that rewarding rating you kept talking about above, but have somehow now ditched from your argument...

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But you need to grasp the fact that what you're talking about is an event, and not an Event Cache. There's a reason I keep saying it. I can't see why you keep not seeing it...

 

What I keep talking about is an event cache and I'm sure that the OP also meant an event cache and not just a hike independently from geocaching.com.

 

No cacher I have ever met in person is saying "I will attend the event cache ....", they all use even instead, but are all meaning the event cache.

 

Fine. Then resign yourself to your dark place, and let it go. Because that's just how it's going to be in your world if you can't accept the help we're offering.

 

Could you please so kind and accept that you are not offering help with respect to what's the issue for me. You are right that I need to live with the rules as they are. But please accept that what you offer how kind you might mean it does not address the issues I have, but something completely different.

 

YOu are to be blamed in the same manner than myself for the endless discussion as you simply do not understand my issue. You solve a completely different problem than mine.

 

I do not need this thread to be aware of the fact that event listings can be used to invite cachers for a hike outside of the framework of the event cache. That's completely trivial.

 

Noone here offered a solution how the hike can be part of the official geocaching event and not just being mentioned there.

 

The Event Cache listing is the event for anyone who reads the event listing. Whatever you say is going to happen at your event is what will happen at the event. All you need to do is meet the 5 criteria for publication.

 

But don't you see that by requiring that the event takes place at the posted coordinates everything else is taking outside of the event cache?

 

The fact that the T rating applies to the difficulty of reaching the posted coordinates reconfirms that.

 

What defines the event cache for Groundspeak is what happens at the posted coordinates, and that's what I have an issue with. All what you write will not change that.

 

Also remember e.g. the story of Team Microdot who was forced to mention on his event listing that people need not participate in the activity the event was organized for. This and similiar stories show well that a lot can happen outside of the official geocaching event, but offioial events are very restricted.

Edited by cezanne
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Come to my hiking event.

 

Introductions and sign-in at 9am.

 

Departure at 9:30am.

 

I realize that my cache page says it's terrain 1, difficulty 1, but that's because that rating is standard for all events. You should come prepared for a 10km, terrain 3 hike.

 

Link to the trail map here.

 

Dress for variable weather.

 

Food and sharks optional.

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Come to my hiking event.

 

Introductions and sign-in at 9am.

 

Departure at 9:30am.

 

I realize that my cache page says it's terrain 1, difficulty 1, but that's because that rating is standard for all events. You should come prepared for a 10km, terrain 3 hike.

 

Link to the trail map here.

 

Dress for variable weather.

 

Food and sharks optional.

 

And what do you provide as end time for your event? (The end time is now compulsory).

 

You could of course put 9:30 there. Then the cache will be easily publishable. However if you put a later time there, then the problems start.

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Come to my moving Event.

 

We will drop from the plane at the given coordinates. We will attempt the following formations, dependent on the number of participants:

 

4 Way Sequential

4 Way Vertical Sequential

8 Way Sequential

 

If we have more than 8 participants, we will also attempt a 16 Way sequential and a Big Ways.

 

I fully anticipate that the drop will provide the required 30 minutes for the Event duration, but if additional time is needed, there will be refreshments at the landing area.

 

You are responsible for packing your own chute, or hire a professional packer at your own expense.

 

Sharknados are in the forecast, so plan accordingly.

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Come to my hiking event.

 

Introductions and sign-in at 9am.

 

Departure at 9:30am.

 

I realize that my cache page says it's terrain 1, difficulty 1, but that's because that rating is standard for all events. You should come prepared for a 10km, terrain 3 hike.

 

Link to the trail map here.

 

Dress for variable weather.

 

Food and sharks optional.

 

And what do you provide as end time for your event? (The end time is now compulsory).

 

You could of course put 9:30 there. Then the cache will be easily publishable. However if you put a later time there, then the problems start.

 

Why would I put a later time? The hike starts at 9:30. We'll take as long as we need.

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forced to mention on his event listing that people need not participate in the activity the event was organized for

 

Yes, I for one am deeply, deeply hurt that I cannot force people to eat pizza or participate in my BINGO ice-breaker game or enter their name in the door prize raffle. That ruins events forever and the game shall perish.

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Come to my moving Event.

 

We will drop from the plane at the given coordinates. We will attempt the following formations, dependent on the number of participants:

 

4 Way Sequential

4 Way Vertical Sequential

8 Way Sequential

 

If we have more than 8 participants, we will also attempt a 16 Way sequential and a Big Ways.

 

I fully anticipate that the drop will provide the required 30 minutes for the Event duration, but if additional time is needed, there will be refreshments at the landing area.

 

You are responsible for packing your own chute, or hire a professional packer at your own expense.

 

Sharknados are in the forecast, so plan accordingly.

Nice. CRW much? :ph34r:

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This has unbelievably frustratingly entertaining. I am so confused. :laughing:

 

Come to my hiking event.

 

Introductions and sign-in at 9am.

 

Departure at 9:30am.

 

I realize that my cache page says it's terrain 1, difficulty 1, but that's because that rating is standard for all events. You should come prepared for a 10km, terrain 3 hike.

 

Link to the trail map here.

 

Dress for variable weather.

 

Food and sharks optional.

And what do you provide as end time for your event? (The end time is now compulsory).

 

You could of course put 9:30 there. Then the cache will be easily publishable. However if you put a later time there, then the problems start.

Yes.

As originally listed, the end time is 9:30.

The event is 1/2 hour.

The hike begins at 9:30.

The hike may or may not have an estimated end time. Irrelevant to the requirement for publishing.

 

You want the event to include the end time for the hike.

So add it.

But leave the 9:30 there. Because the event starts at 9:00, and ends at 9:30 when the group leaves for the hike, which ends at 5:00pm if you want.

There's your event.

 

Happy?

No, of course not.

dry.gif

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I said that the event has changed and the main changes were the changed ratings and changes in the text (both enforced).

 

These changes led to two results: A frustrated owner who will not hold another edition and much less participants on the ice. The idea of the ice skating event has been to get the cachers on the ice and not to have a side activity for yet another urban event.

If you look into all the work the event owner and her daughter invested each year (the presents, creating the log cloth, creating the puzzle etc), it's heart breaking to see which way such events go.

 

The only two main things that changed were the ratings and the text in the cache description, which I'm guessing revolved around the fact that you couldn't require people to ice skate OR something to the extent that you could log the event without having to ice skate (?). THAT'S what made it worse? A set of numbers for the event and some words on the cache description page. Neither of those prevents anyone from doing the exact same things that you used to do in the older events. I'm sorry, but being upset about changes that have no bearing on what you will be doing once you arrive at the ice rink is rather petty, in my opinion.

 

I fail to see how a rating change and a text change in the description would frustrate the host. Nothing about either of those changes the nature of the event. It's a set of numbers and it's making the listing publishable. It's still going to be about skating with some presents, a nice log and a field puzzle. You can encourage and offer help to those that are non-skaters to try to get them on the ice. If they need a break from skating, they sit down and chat with each other and those that opt to not skate. NOTHING has to be done by the CO to accommodate those who have chosen not to skate. She's not required to have a side activity for them (or anyone else for that matter). Her event is her event and she can determine what will be done with regard to activities, but even she can't require that all people need to skate.

 

If the frustration is due to the fact that less people are skating than in past years, so what? Not everyone has the ability to skate. How do you think she'd feel if she encouraged an 8 year old first time skater to get out on the ice (since that's what she wants) and the child fell and suffered a concussion or broken arm, leg, or wrist? Coming to an ice skating event without ice skating in order to socialize with friends is fine in my eyes and if I were the host, it wouldn't bother me in the least. I'd love it if some of them came out to try, but I wouldn't be upset if they didn't. Of course, this is all a moot point as I can't ice skate so I'd probably never host an ice skating event. The point remains that not everyone can ice skate and you can't require attendees to ice skate. You also can't exclude those non-skaters from your event. Those that want to skate, can, and those that don't want to, don't have to. Pretty simple and no reason for frustration in my eyes.

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Noone here offered a solution how the hike eating pizza can be part of the official geocaching event and not just being mentioned there.

 

 

Plenty of people gather at events, eat pizza, socialize and then leave/go caching/whatever. I've never seen an event listing stating you had to eat pizza to log an Attended. It was almost like the eating pizza part was just one aspect of the event, a voluntary one...sort of like going for a hike would be.

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forced to mention on his event listing that people need not participate in the activity the event was organized for

 

Yes, I for one am deeply, deeply hurt that I cannot force people to eat pizza or participate in my BINGO ice-breaker game or enter their name in the door prize raffle. That ruins events forever and the game shall perish.

 

Well, apart from the fact that events exist where at least paying for the food is compulsory (of course noone can enforce that the attendants really eat it) it's something different not to force people to do something (actually I have never been at a hiking event where someone was forced to go for the hike) and to be forced to mention the above in the event listing.

 

It's a bit like being forced to mention that dogs should not put into a washing machine or small animals should not put into the micro wave to dry them.

Edited by cezanne
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Noone here offered a solution how the hike eating pizza can be part of the official geocaching event and not just being mentioned there.

 

 

Plenty of people gather at events, eat pizza, socialize and then leave/go caching/whatever. I've never seen an event listing stating you had to eat pizza to log an Attended. It was almost like the eating pizza part was just one aspect of the event, a voluntary one...sort of like going for a hike would be.

 

Once again: It is not about logging attended logs. I do not care about who logs attended.

 

As the pizza eating event is regarded: The pizza eating does take place during the interval between start and end time of the event (at least for a pizza eating event). So the pizza eating is officially recognized as part of the event.

 

If a hike takes place after what Groundspeak recognizes as event, this is a completely different story.

 

What I object on not a missing enforcement on the participants. The essential difference is the one mentioned above: The hike is not allowed to be part of the event, pizza eating is.

Being part does not mean that every person who logs attended has participated in the hike.

It just means the hike can take place between the start and the end of the event cache and is also taken into account in ratings etc

 

If people leave the pizza eating and go caching on their own or in groups, this is not part of the event in the same way as it is required for the hike though the hike is what a hiking event is about.

 

As your statement above is regarded, it also reverses the issue I addressed. I have not seen a pizza event where it was enforced to write "You do not need to eat pizza" (I would have been a ridiculous just in the same way as for ice skating, the hike etc). It's clear from the guidelines that there are no ALR and I'm ok with that.

 

Is it that hard to understand (you do not need to share my opinion) that I have an issue with the set up

 

start of event (cache): 9:00

 

end of event (cache): 9:30

 

We meet at the posted coordinates starting from 9:00 and at 9:30 head off for a hike to XX.

 

I object against the fact that once the hike starts, what is the event cache for Groundspeak has stopped, and all the consequences following from this stance (ratings, overachiever vs. underachiever, very short event length, boring event etc).

Edited by cezanne
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Not everyone has the ability to skate.

 

Of course not, but a lot of those who skated in previous years and are much better skaters than I am (I would not even call myself a skater) decided not to skate this time. As I said skating has not been enforced in previous years either.

 

I guess that if cachers visit a cache/event with a higher difficulty/terrain rating and without explicit mention that logging attended is apparently all what it (=event caches) is (are) about, come with a different attitude.

Edited by cezanne
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Not everyone has the ability to skate.

 

Of course not, but a lot of those who skated in previous years and are much better skaters than I am (I would not even call myself a skater) decided not to skate this time. As I said skating has not been enforced in previous years either.

 

I guess that if cachers visit a cache/event with a higher difficulty/terrain rating and without explicit mention that logging attended is apparently all what it (=event caches) is (are) about, come with a different attitude.

So why the complaints about less skaters? What's the big deal? Why is the host so upset? I'm sure those that opted to skate had a good time and it's my guess that those who opted not to skate had a good time too. The ONLY main differences in her event were some numbers for ratings and a word change in the cache description. EVERYTHING else was the same yet you and host see that this event has changed somehow for the worse. What, specifically, made this event worse than in previous years?

 

So different D/T ratings create different attitudes about events? An event is supposed to be social in nature, but a different D/T combination creates different expectations for those in attendance. Really?

 

I'm really looking forward to that really fun 4.5 T ice skating event we've gone to these past 4 years. Wait. What? It's only a 1 T ice skating event and you can log the event even if you don't ice skate? Well now I'm not so excited anymore and I don't think it will be as much fun, even though the host has said that everything else is the same as in years past. I'm not going to go this year.

 

I'm really looking forward to the 3 T hiking event we've attended for the past 3 years and had so much fun at. Wait. What? It's now only a 1 T because we're meeting at the trailhead? We're NOT going on the hike? Oh. According to the cache page, we are still going on the hike, but it's not part of the actual event and we won't get credit for a 3T event. We just have to stand around and be bored until it's time to leave on a hike that isn't really the purpose of the event, but we still get credit for the event, even if we don't go on the hike afterwards. Well now I don't want to go because I can't hike like I used to.

 

I'm really looking forward to the 3 T hiking event we've attended for the past 3 years and had so much fun at. Wait. What? It's a 3 T still, but it's halfway up the trail and it's a break for lunch, so it's a lunch event, not a hike. I have NO idea how long it will take me to reach the location and even though the cache page says that we can set up plans to meet beforehand to hike up together, it's still just a lunch event. I REALLY wanted to go on the hike but because the event is only a lunch event and not a hike, I'm not as interested anymore and it won't be as fun, so I won't go.

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Is it that hard to understand (you do not need to share my opinion) that I have an issue with the set up

 

start of event (cache): 9:00

 

end of event (cache): 9:30

 

We meet at the posted coordinates starting from 9:00 and at 9:30 head off for a hike to XX.

 

 

Why would you have an issue with that? At 9:30 the logbook is getting packed in my car and we're leaving for the hike. Nobody can reasonably join the hike after that. The details of the hike are in the cache description.

 

What's the actual problem?

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Is it that hard to understand (you do not need to share my opinion) that I have an issue with the set up

 

start of event (cache): 9:00

 

end of event (cache): 9:30

 

We meet at the posted coordinates starting from 9:00 and at 9:30 head off for a hike to XX.

 

 

Why would you have an issue with that? At 9:30 the logbook is getting packed in my car and we're leaving for the hike. Nobody can reasonably join the hike after that. The details of the hike are in the cache description.

 

What's the actual problem?

 

It's not a problem I have with how the hike will work out. It is an issue I have with Groundspeak's stance on what constitutes an event and how they treat cachers whose favourite geocaching events are active ones.

 

For example, the holder of the ice skating event will not organize again an ice skating event on geocaching.com, but she plans to continue the acticity next year outside of geocaching.com.

 

The approach suggested numerous times here is just a way to use an event listing to announce activities outside of the event. There is no reasonable motivation then to use geocaching.com at all then.

 

One then simply announces the activity within the bounds of larger or smaller cliques and everything becomes much easier. However non locals and newcomers will never get to know about these non Groundspeak events and they will never ever experience one of the great outdoor events in those areas where event hosts are not at all happy with how they are treated.

 

If someone organizes a 5 hours hike, he/she does not deserve to be treated as someone fulfilling just the bare minimum of the event requirements. Reading the guide on how to host an event, everyone who organizes a hike and just writes bring along your own food, will be a worse event host than those who host an event in a restaurant (food, rest rooms etc). Again it's something that shows the attitude of Groundspeak towards events and what they communicate to new cachers what events are about.#

 

Of course for those who take part in a nice hike, the hike itself is not cheapened, but the fact that Groundspeak does not consider the hike as a valuable event contribution, makes me sad. Taken together with all their other recent changes it feels like they say "Leave. You are not welcome here."

Edited by cezanne
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