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HikingSeal
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Do you finally get why it is so important for me what is the actual event and when it ends? I never would allow myself to spend only 10 minutes at an event and consider myself a participant (regardless of an attended log) but spending 4 hours and 10 minutes at an event is perfectly in compliance with expectations on my person.

Great.

Again, we're back to you, and your choices. You can select the events you want to go to. You can select how you will participate, behave, react, and reflect. You can decide how long you want to be there, how long you want to interact with others, and how long you decide suffices so you can go home and log "Attended".

 

But don't you think that it will have a considerable effect on the events that take place and on the attendants when more cachers share my opinion and will act accordingly?

 

Whatever has been written in this thread has not contributed a bit to help me understand why one needs to enforce that both the start and end of an event have to coincide with the start and end of the what you call window.

Prove to us that there is a massive wave of disapproval akin to your own which would result in the outcome you're predicting, and I'll grant your hyperventilation and hyperbole.

 

Nobody has said that the "start and end" of the event needs to be the same as the "start and end of the window". At least not that I've seen...did I miss that somewhere?

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As I understand it, cezanne's problem is that the changes to the way the guidelines have been written and interpreted has changed the way local events are organized, that cezanne preferred the way local events used to be organized, and therefore, that cezanne preferred the way the guidelines were written and interpreted.

 

It has never been about cezanne organizing an event. It has never been about whether workarounds exist.

...and what Groundspeak has done, in this case, is clarify what they mean equates an Event Cache on Geocaching.com, and have asked Reviewers to review and publish based on that clarification and addition to the guidelines. They've adjusted the guidelines so that there is less "wiggle room" for Reviewers to impart their bias or preference or previous common practice which may have been apart from Groundspeak's intent and/or current desire to shape the future of what a Groundspeak Geocaching.com Event Cache is.

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Nobody has said that the "start and end" of the event needs to be the same as the "start and end of the window". At least not that I've seen...did I miss that somewhere?

 

From the guidelines

 

An event is a gathering of geocachers, facilitating the social aspect of geocaching. It is organized by geocachers and is open to other geocachers and those interested in learning about the game. It takes place at the posted coordinates, includes start and end times, and lasts at least 30 minutes.

 

Sorry, but in my opinion there is no other way to understand the above as that the start and end time have to refer to what takes place at the posted coordinates.

That's nothing with wiggle room and nothing to be worked on with the reviewer.

 

The above clearly states that everything that does not take place at the posted coordinates is not part of the event as otherwise the event would not take place at the posted coordinates, but only parts of the event.

 

 

Either Groundspeak really means what they state above and then my concerns are valid or they should reformulate the event guidelines. Somehow some part of the formulation seems to come from larger events where there is something like a registration desk which is open during a longer period and even though different activities might be offered (however again static ones), there is someone present during the whole period between start and end time at the posted coordinates. In the way I understand it, this seems to be a (implicit) requirement by Groundspeak as otherwise the whole concept would not make sense and would be contradictory.

 

I can understand that Groundspeak felt a need to come up with certain restrictions over time (regardlessless of whether I share their opinion), but I cannot understand why it is necessary to come up with above very narrow definition of what is an event on geocaching.com. Enforcing a window as you put it is something completely different than requiring the event and the window to be same thing - this last point is at the heart of my concern.

 

What puzzles me in addition to what has already been mentioned is that CITOs not only are allowed to move, but they can also be used for organizeg group cache hunts. So somehow picking up trash provides the attendants with all the privileges of what allegedly is so evil and and bad that it needs to be avoid for normal events.

Edited by cezanne
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The above clearly states that everything that does not take place at the posted coordinates is not part of the official geocaching event as otherwise the event would not take place at the posted coordinates, but only parts of the event.

 

Fixed it for you. What GS considers the event does not necessarily equate to what you (or anyone else) equates to the overall event.

 

So, if someone hosts a GS event at the summit, and they leave at 0900 from the trailhead with the people you want to socialize with, and if you don't want to mingle with the 100+ people at the summit, leave early and don't log the event as Attended (since you "cheated").

 

[edit: unbolded second statement as it didn't apply]

Edited by BBWolf+3Pigs
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An event is a gathering of geocachers, facilitating the social aspect of geocaching. It is organized by geocachers and is open to other geocachers and those interested in learning about the game. It takes place at the posted coordinates, includes start and end times, and lasts at least 30 minutes.

 

Sorry, but in my opinion there is no other way to understand the above as that the start and end time have to refer to what takes place at the posted coordinates.

That's nothing with wiggle room and nothing to be worked on with the reviewer.

 

The above clearly states that everything that does not take place at the posted coordinates is not part of the event as otherwise the event would not take place at the posted coordinates, but only parts of the event.

Nope. Perhaps it is a matter of language.

The above only states that the event takes place at the posted coordinates. It also must include start and end times. And it must last at least 30 minutes.

Take away:

* An event is at the posted coordinates

* The event, taking place at the posted coordinates, lasts at least 30 minutes

* The event must state a start and end time for the posted coordinates.

 

Examples have been provided, repeatedly, of events that takes place over long periods of time, and contain numerous activities, which may or may not take place at (or in the vicinity of) the posted coordinates.

Whether the listing is sufficiently acceptable is up to the reviewer.

 

Try posting an event at a summit, say that people can meet at 9am at the parking coordinates (an additional waypoint) to hike together to the summit, where lunch will occur at 12:30pm-1:00pm at the posted coordinates, after which time the hike will continue. People are free to arrive at GZ whenever and however they wish, but must be present between 12:30-1:00pm in order to log the event as attended.

I'll bet that'll be publishable.

 

How about a family day at the park?

Try posting an event at the city park, in a central location. Add additional waypoints all around the park where other activities and games will take place throughout the day (all geocaching-related, presuming you've organized such a large event with volunteers). State the event listing's times as the range that someone will be present at the central 'greeting' location, even though activities may occur at the other 'locations' all throughout the day. Even add in that anyone who wants to get together for dinner will be meeting at the restaurant around the corner at 6pm, see waypoint.

I'll bet that'll be publishable.

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The above clearly states that everything that does not take place at the posted coordinates is not part of the official geocaching event as otherwise the event would not take place at the posted coordinates, but only parts of the event.

 

Fixed it for you. What GS considers the event does not necessarily equate to what you (or anyone else) equates to the overall event.

 

It does not necessarily equate, but at least when it comes to me I feel an obligation to be present for a substantial part of what Groundspeak defines as the official event regardless of how long I might be present at other parts. This holds true regardless of whether I decide to log attended or not and I also think that with that type of approach any hiking event where the meeting window does take place at the parking lot is forced to end up as a lame and boring official event.

 

The existence of the workaround does not change the fact that with the way the guidelines are written many official events end up as lame events different to what the hosts would like to have.

Edited by cezanne
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Nope. Perhaps it is a matter of language.

 

No, it isn't.

 

The above only states that the event takes place at the posted coordinates. It also must include start and end times.

 

If it takes place at the posted coordinates, it cannot have parts elsewhere.

 

Try posting an event at a summit, say that people can meet at 9am at the parking coordinates (an additional waypoint) to hike together to the summit, where lunch will occur at 12:30pm-1:00pm at the posted coordinates, after which time the hike will continue. People are free to arrive at GZ whenever and however they wish, but must be present between 12:30-1:00pm in order to log the event as attended.

I'll bet that'll be publishable.

 

Yes, of course it will be, but what Groundspeak regards as event takes place from 12:30 to 1:00 at the summit (so start time: 12:30 and and end time 1:00 and not start time 9am and end time the return time to the starting point).

 

 

How about a family day at the park?

Try posting an event at the city park, in a central location. Add additional waypoints all around the park where other activities and games will take place throughout the day (all geocaching-related, presuming you've organized such a large event with volunteers). State the event listing's times as the range that someone will be present at the central 'greeting' location, even though activities may occur at the other 'locations' all throughout the day. Even add in that anyone who wants to get together for dinner will be meeting at the restaurant around the corner at 6pm, see waypoint.

I'll bet that'll be publishable.

 

Once again I agree, but again the official event consists of the argen when someone will be present a the greeting location, and maybe the dinner in the evening.

 

Someone who just decides to attend one of the activities that are not stationary ends up as unofficial participant not attending the event according to its spirit and the event host who

organizes such an event without the dinner and only with an enforced 30 minutes meeting period will end up to be considered as the host of a lame and underachieving official geocaching event by Groundspeak. And to add to it he/she will be blamed by you to violate the spirit of a geocaching event by including the 30 minutes period only because it is enforced and not because it's what the even host sees as important part of the event. That's sad.

 

 

Cezanne

Edited by cezanne
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An event is a gathering of geocachers, facilitating the social aspect of geocaching. It is organized by geocachers and is open to other geocachers and those interested in learning about the game. It takes place at the posted coordinates, includes start and end times, and lasts at least 30 minutes.

 

Sorry, but in my opinion there is no other way to understand the above as that the start and end time have to refer to what takes place at the posted coordinates.

That's nothing with wiggle room and nothing to be worked on with the reviewer.

 

The above clearly states that everything that does not take place at the posted coordinates is not part of the event as otherwise the event would not take place at the posted coordinates, but only parts of the event.

Nope. Perhaps it is a matter of language.

The above only states that the event takes place at the posted coordinates. It also must include start and end times. And it must last at least 30 minutes.

Take away:

* An event is at the posted coordinates

* The event, taking place at the posted coordinates, lasts at least 30 minutes

* The event must state a start and end time for the posted coordinates.

Eats shoots and leaves.

 

Eats, shoots, and leaves.

 

51ORvKZ5ypL.jpg

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The above only states that the event takes place at the posted coordinates. It also must include start and end times.

If it takes place at the posted coordinates, it cannot have parts elsewhere.

Yes. It. Can.

As long as the event does occur at the posted coordinates for its posted duration.

 

Try posting an event at a summit, say that people can meet at 9am at the parking coordinates (an additional waypoint) to hike together to the summit, where lunch will occur at 12:30pm-1:00pm at the posted coordinates, after which time the hike will continue. People are free to arrive at GZ whenever and however they wish, but must be present between 12:30-1:00pm in order to log the event as attended.

I'll bet that'll be publishable.

 

Yes, of course it will be, but what Groundspeak regards as event takes place from 12:30 to 1:00 at the summit (so start time: 12:30 and and end time 1:00 and not start time 9am and end time the return time to the starting point).

Yes, as I said, the event duration is 12:30 to 1:00. But you provide additional waypoint and times at which other things may occurs - they are simply not the "official" Event.

 

How about a family day at the park?

Try posting an event at the city park, in a central location. Add additional waypoints all around the park where other activities and games will take place throughout the day (all geocaching-related, presuming you've organized such a large event with volunteers). State the event listing's times as the range that someone will be present at the central 'greeting' location, even though activities may occur at the other 'locations' all throughout the day. Even add in that anyone who wants to get together for dinner will be meeting at the restaurant around the corner at 6pm, see waypoint.

I'll bet that'll be publishable.

Once again I agree, but again the official event consists of the argen when someone will be present a the greeting location, and maybe the dinner in the evening.

No, only the posted coordinates, only the greeting location, only the duration of the posted Event Listing. All the other stuff can still happen.

 

Someone who just decides to attend one of the activities that are not stationary ends up as unofficial participant not attending the event

Precisely. The event host will decide in that case. They have the right to delete an attended log if the person did not come to the posted coordinates. But will they? Groundspeak would likely encourage them not to be so stringent as it incites arguments and appeals. Just let it go. However, the host does reserve that right, and Groundspeak would back it up. Because the event is at the posted coordinates, not a distant activity which is not part of the official event.

I know you absolutely hate that thought. But objectively, and technically, by the letter of the law, that is the fact. Again, every collection of rules you'll be able to present an example that is not optimal. No one debates that. But that is the line-pushing nature of people. The rules encourage a certain style of event, and event hosts can be as creative and positive and accepting and loose as they wish, as long as they abide by the (enforceable) rules. Focus on THAT.

 

An event is only "lame" if the host lets it be so, or if all the attendees intentionally spoil the environment to be so. It has nothing to do with Groundspeak.

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If it takes place at the posted coordinates, it cannot have parts elsewhere.

Yes. It. Can.

As long as the event does occur at the posted coordinates for its posted duration.

 

What you mean is that the event page can mention other parts. They are then however not part of what Groundspeak defines as the geocaching event.

They can take place, yes, I have never denied it. What's essential is that they are not considered to be part of the event in terms of Groundspeak's definition.

 

Yes, as I said, the event duration is 12:30 to 1:00. But you provide additional waypoint and times at which other things may occurs - they are simply not the "official" Event.

 

Yes, and my objection exactly comes from the fact that they are not the official event. And no workaround can change that.

 

Someone who just decides to attend one of the activities that are not stationary ends up as unofficial participant not attending the event

Precisely. The event host will decide in that case.

 

The event owner can decide whether he/she allows an attended log in such a case, yes.

But every participant will decide for him/herself whether he/she feels as valuable, official participant.

 

So even if the host of an event who does not care about the official event period encourages attendants of other activities to log attended logs and to consider them as official participants,

it would not change my feeling that I'm not an official participant. As such I even would not want to write a note and then without the chance to write about an event, I could just as well go for an activity outside of gc.com.

 

 

An event is only "lame" if the host lets it be so, or if all the attendees intentionally spoil the environment to be so. It has nothing to do with Groundspeak.

 

I do not agree. Of course it is Groundspeak's decision to go for the approach that forbids the official event part to contain a moving component.

Note that I talk about the official event without any activities that might take place outside.

 

Groundspeak could just as well allow a window of at least 30 minutes at the posted coordinates followed by something else which is well within the official event as they have done for many years (this refers to the latter part and not the 30 minutes minimum duration).

Edited by cezanne
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Nope. Perhaps it is a matter of language.

 

No, it isn't.

 

The above only states that the event takes place at the posted coordinates. It also must include start and end times.

 

If it takes place at the posted coordinates, it cannot have parts elsewhere.

I just came out of my concussion-derived stupor after facepalming too hard.

 

Where the Aych-ee-ell-ell did you get that from?

 

Event guidelines: "An event is a gathering of geocachers, facilitating the social aspect of geocaching. It is organized by geocachers and is open to other geocachers and those interested in learning about the game. It takes place at the posted coordinates, includes start and end times, and lasts at least 30 minutes. Events with several elements, a sequence of events, or events that are near the same time or location and intended for the same audience should be submitted as a single event. Additional waypoints may be added to the event listing for the locations of event activities.

 

Events must be submitted at least two weeks prior to the event date. Events are usually published no more than three months prior to the event date. Events may be published up to six months prior if an overnight stay is expected by attendees or if the event is designed to attract geocachers from beyond the local area. After an event has occurred, the listing is to be archived by the geocache owner.

 

An Event Cache should not be set up for the purpose of gathering geocachers for a geocache search. If an event is already organized outside of the geocaching community or it will happen without a Geocaching.com listing, it is likely not an Event Cache. Examples include concerts, fairs, sporting and scouting events.

 

Event Caches, like other geocaches, will only be published if they meet the commercial cache guideline. Geocache owners can include basic information about the location on the geocache page, even if it is a commercial location. Event listings may request donations or charge a fee to cover legitimate costs of the event. A list of sponsors, without logos or URLs, may be on an event listing. Event listings may only mention sales of event-related Geocaching.com trackables. Listings may include a link to a non-commercial event landing page. Attendees may be required to register at a separate registration page."

 

Try posting an event at a summit, say that people can meet at 9am at the parking coordinates (an additional waypoint) to hike together to the summit, where lunch will occur at 12:30pm-1:00pm at the posted coordinates, after which time the hike will continue. People are free to arrive at GZ whenever and however they wish, but must be present between 12:30-1:00pm in order to log the event as attended.

I'll bet that'll be publishable.

 

Yes, of course it will be, but what Groundspeak regards as event takes place from 12:30 to 1:00 at the summit (so start time: 12:30 and and end time 1:00 and not start time 9am and end time the return time to the starting point).

No, no, and nononononono. The event is still whatever you get published. You simply have to be clear enough with the Reviewer that the 30-minute minimum window requirement is met with your Event Cache listing.

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Where the Aych-ee-ell-ell did you get that from?

 

Event guidelines: "An event is a gathering of geocachers, facilitating the social aspect of geocaching. It is organized by geocachers and is open to other geocachers and those interested in learning about the game. It takes place at the posted coordinates, includes start and end times, and lasts at least 30 minutes. Events with several elements, a sequence of events, or events that are near the same time or location and intended for the same audience should be submitted as a single event. Additional waypoints may be added to the event listing for the locations of event activities.

 

Quite simple. The above is a definition of what makes an event for Groundspeak. That's not an issue of commas and cannot be understood differently.

 

So while additional waypoints might be added, the official event has to take place at the posted coordinates and thus the start and the end event time have to refer to the duration of the activity at the posted coordinates. That's by the way in accordance with the way bruce0 understands the text.

 

There is no way around the fact that according to the guideline part cited above an event listing saying

 

start of event: 9:00

end of event: 14:00

we will meet startng from 9:00 at the header coordinates and then go for a hike to the summit of mount X.

We will be back at 14:00

 

will be rejected by many (all?) reviewers.

 

Of course by changing the end of event to 9:30 and keeping everything else the same, the event will get published. The hike can take place but not as part of the official event. And what makes things worse is that cachers like bruce0 accuse the host of such an event (with the 9:30 end time version) who organizes the event only for the hike and includes the 30 minutes period only because it is enforced to act against the spirit of events.

Edited by cezanne
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The existence of the workaround does not change the fact that with the way the guidelines are written many official events end up as lame events different to what the hosts would like to have.

 

This is nonsense.

 

My events are EXACTLY how I want them to be - I met the new event guidelines even before they were guidelines. I would not change a single thing if the guidelines were removed. NOT. ONE. THING. And I have yet to get any complaints that my events are lame.

 

Maybe you need to pop over to Rhode Island if you want to experience non-lame events. Or maybe your local events hosters need to get a little more creative.

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Of course by changing the end of event to 9:30 and keeping everything else the same, the event will get published. The hike can take place but not as part of the official event.

 

WHO CARES?!?!?! If what you desire is to take a nice long hike with some old caching friends and to meet some new caching friends and socialize yadda yadda yadda....YOU STILL CAN!!!!! If you feel it's cheating that you show up 5 minutes before the walk, don't log an Attended on the event. You have stated over and over again that you want to socialize on the trail and not at a pizza joint or Brauhaus or wherever else. Then JUST DO IT!

 

[edit: typos]

Edited by BBWolf+3Pigs
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The existence of the workaround does not change the fact that with the way the guidelines are written many official events end up as lame events different to what the hosts would like to have.

 

This is nonsense.

 

Is said many, not the majority or all.

 

My events are EXACTLY how I want them to be - I met the new event guidelines even before they were guidelines. I would not change a single thing if the guidelines were removed. NOT. ONE. THING. And I have yet to get any complaints that my events are lame.

 

I can confirm that I do not consider your paddling events to be lame. I have not looked at your other events. It does not play a role anyway as my claim was not that all events get lame, just that a certain type of event where the non lameness comes from what is not considered part of the official event now ends up as something very lame.

 

Of course one often can make adaptations in order to remove some of the weak points that show up as consequences of the changed guidelines, but first this is not always possible and second I wonder why it should be needed. I feel that a nice and well organized hike is sufficient contents for an event so that it is not needed to invest creativity and energy in setting up a meeting period which is more than what is enforced.

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I think the latest theme of cezanne's arguments being "not part of the official event" can certainly be summed up in BBWolf's loud and clear "WHO CARES?!?!?!"

Move on, cezanne. Everything you want to do you can STILL DO. It seems you now recognize everything the way it IS, practically, and are now debating meaning and value. Please, stop... I beg for the love of all that is good and sane!

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Of course by changing the end of event to 9:30 and keeping everything else the same, the event will get published. The hike can take place but not as part of the official event.

 

WHO CARES?!?!?! If what you desire is to take a nice long hike with some old caching friends and to meet some new caching friends and socialize yadda yadda yadda....YOU STILL CAN!!!!! If you feel it's cheating that you show up 5 minutes before the walk, don't log an Attended on the event. You have stated over and over again that you want to socialize on the trail and not at a pizza joint or Brauhaus or wherever else. Then JUST DO IT!

 

Don't you think that it is pretty ironic that Groundspeak stresses that events should be open to all cachers and comes up with many rules to allow everyone to log an attended log and at the same does not care a bit that with their way of defining an (official) event they exclude a substantial part of geocachers from official events.

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There is no way around the fact that according to the guideline part cited above an event listing saying

 

start of event: 9:00

end of event: 14:00

we will meet startng from 9:00 at the header coordinates and then go for a hike to the summit of mount X.

We will be back at 14:00

 

will be rejected by many (all?) reviewers.

 

Of course by changing the end of event to 9:30 and keeping everything else the same, the event will get published. The hike can take place but not as part of the official event. And what makes things worse is that cachers like bruce0 accuse the host of such an event (with the 9:30 end time version) who organizes the event only for the hike and includes the 30 minutes period only because it is enforced to act against the spirit of events.

Well, durrrrrrr... :huh:

 

Just word it like we've said you can/should, and it will get published.

 

"Start of event: 9:00

End of event: 14:00

We will meet be starting from 9:30 at the header coordinates and then to go for a hike to the summit of mount X.

We will be back at 14:00"

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From the guidelines

 

An event is a gathering of geocachers, facilitating the social aspect of geocaching. It is organized by geocachers and is open to other geocachers and those interested in learning about the game. It takes place at the posted coordinates, includes start and end times, and lasts at least 30 minutes.

 

Sorry, but in my opinion there is no other way to understand the above as that the start and end time have to refer to what takes place at the posted coordinates.

That's nothing with wiggle room and nothing to be worked on with the reviewer.

 

But an event CANNOT take place at the posted coordinates. Posted coordinates are measured to 1/1000th of a minute. If you and I are talking to each other we are at different coordinates.

 

An event CAN take place NEAR the posted coordinates, but now we have to define "near". My version of "near" may be "within the boundaries of the area that contains the event". Your definition may be different.

 

My only local event took place at the Shelter Shed in Burrill Lake Lions Park. The posted coordinates were in the middle of one of the tables under the shelter shed. When we arrived to set up ready for the event, that table was occupied by a family. So we set up at a different table, probably 10m from the posted coordinates. I can say with absolute certainty that nobody from the event was at the posted coordinates for any part of the event.

 

The park covers quite an area (at a guess, 5 acres or so) and borders Burrill Lake Inlet. It includes a kiddies playground, fishing platforms, paths for walking and for bikes/skateboards etc. Just outside the far end of the park, you can swim in the inlet, fish off the rocks or walk the beach. We had people spread out all over the park and beyond. And nobody at GZ - ever.

 

Hopefully, my Pi Day event will be similar.

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Don't you think that it is pretty ironic that Groundspeak stresses that events should be open to all cachers and comes up with many rules to allow everyone to log an attended log and at the same does not care a bit that with their way of defining an (official) event they exclude a substantial part of geocachers from official events.

Prove that it is excluding "a substantial part of geocachers", and we'll grant you your hyperventilation and hyperbole.

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Of course by changing the end of event to 9:30 and keeping everything else the same, the event will get published. The hike can take place but not as part of the official event.

 

WHO CARES?!?!?! If what you desire is to take a nice long hike with some old caching friends and to meet some new caching friends and socialize yadda yadda yadda....YOU STILL CAN!!!!! If you feel it's cheating that you show up 5 minutes before the walk, don't log an Attended on the event. You have stated over and over again that you want to socialize on the trail and not at a pizza joint or Brauhaus or wherever else. Then JUST DO IT!

 

Don't you think that it is pretty ironic that Groundspeak stresses that events should be open to all cachers and comes up with many rules to allow everyone to log an attended log and at the same does not care a bit that with their way of defining an (official) event they exclude a substantial part of geocachers from official events.

 

Care to explain how the new guidelines are excluding "a substantial part of geocachers from official events"?

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From the guidelines

 

An event is a gathering of geocachers, facilitating the social aspect of geocaching. It is organized by geocachers and is open to other geocachers and those interested in learning about the game. It takes place at the posted coordinates, includes start and end times, and lasts at least 30 minutes.

 

Sorry, but in my opinion there is no other way to understand the above as that the start and end time have to refer to what takes place at the posted coordinates.

That's nothing with wiggle room and nothing to be worked on with the reviewer.

 

But an event CANNOT take place at the posted coordinates. Posted coordinates are measured to 1/1000th of a minute. If you and I are talking to each other we are at different coordinates.

 

An event CAN take place NEAR the posted coordinates, but now we have to define "near". My version of "near" may be "within the boundaries of the area that contains the event". Your definition may be different.

 

My only local event took place at the Shelter Shed in Burrill Lake Lions Park. The posted coordinates were in the middle of one of the tables under the shelter shed. When we arrived to set up ready for the event, that table was occupied by a family. So we set up at a different table, probably 10m from the posted coordinates. I can say with absolute certainty that nobody from the event was at the posted coordinates for any part of the event.

 

The park covers quite an area (at a guess, 5 acres or so) and borders Burrill Lake Inlet. It includes a kiddies playground, fishing platforms, paths for walking and for bikes/skateboards etc. Just outside the far end of the park, you can swim in the inlet, fish off the rocks or walk the beach. We had people spread out all over the park and beyond. And nobody at GZ - ever.

 

Hopefully, my Pi Day event will be similar.

OMG. I am SO reporting this. I am OUTRAGED! (Or should I say, "saddened"?)

 

:angry:

 

:tired:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

:laughing:

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I think the latest theme of cezanne's arguments being "not part of the official event" can certainly be summed up in BBWolf's loud and clear "WHO CARES?!?!?!"

This is exactly what I'm still not getting: why does Groundspeak care?

 

And only slightly less puzzling is why everyone's so intent on convincing cezanne to like it.

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I think the latest theme of cezanne's arguments being "not part of the official event" can certainly be summed up in BBWolf's loud and clear "WHO CARES?!?!?!"

This is exactly what I'm still not getting: why does Groundspeak care?

 

And only slightly less puzzling is why everyone's so intent on convincing cezanne to like it.

Because issues had come to their attention from geocachers to Reviewers, and likely therefore appealed or contact made to the Lilypad, TPTB decided to clarify what has been apparent to many--including here in the forums for various "scheduled" forum topics.

 

Not least of which included a realization that the variation in interpretation of the guidelines was more pronounced than they realized. The discussion of the "D1 Event" listing brought some of the geographical differences to the fore, and likely some conversations behind the scenes between Reviewers was had. Once Groundspeak realized that they had an opportunity to clarify guidelines in a way that reigned in the liberties taken (intentionally and/or unintentionally) by users and Reviewers, they made these clarifications.

 

It's a simple feedback loop, really. And my best guess is above. If they want to have a global game, they need to deal with variation that comes up in interpretation of the guidelines. Some may be language/interpretation barriers, some might be simply pushing the envelope too far.

 

All of this to say, they just found a need to clarify and make things a tad more consistent. Groundspeak has a vision for what an "Event Cache" is and should be, and they're buckling down and tightening up the guidelines to put the train back on their tracks.

 

But, this is all a guess, but what makes sense to me if I were running a business like this.

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But, this is all a guess, but what makes sense to me if I were running a business like this.

If I were running a business like this, I wouldn't make people guess.

 

That's my whole problem here: people are implying there are very, very serious problems that have actually come up that require these quite strict restrictions limiting events to being nothing but parties open to absolutely anyone, but I don't have a single example to consider.

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Have a look at e.g. what the guidelines said in April 2005

 

Event caches are gatherings that are open to all geocachers and which are organized by geocachers. After the event has passed, the event cache should be archived by the organizer within four weeks. While a music concert, a garage sale, a ham radio field day or town's fireworks display might be of interest to a large percentage of geocachers, such events are not suitable for submission as event caches because the organizers and the primary attendees are not geocachers. In addition, an event cache should not be set up for the sole purpose of drawing together cachers for an organized hunt of another cache or caches. Such group hunts are best organized using the forums or an email distribution list.

 

For geocaching events that involve several components, such as a day-long group cache hunt that also involves a seminar and dinner, only a single event cache covering all components should be submitted.

Yep. I don't see how that description allows for moving events - where the event itself is no longer at the posted coordinates after its start time.

Sorry, I not seeing where this old guideline says the entire event is at the posted coordinates. In fact there were events the attendees met at the posted coordinates then went off on some activity.

 

People who began geocaching later are so use to the idea that you can log attended just by showing up at anytime during the event and that you can't be required to participate in an activity are incredulous that that it was ever any different. Even more since they have been told that additional logging requirements are not allowed on physical cache, so that must have always been what the way it was.

 

Could the motivation for he "stationary" and "distinct start/end times" be to protect attendees?

 

Old guidelines allowed a person to post an event as "We will start around 12:00, and hike the trail." So, if I showed up after 12, and hiked the trail, could I claim it? A controlling event host may have deleted the "Attended".

 

With the new guidelines, if a person shows up at the posted location, during the posted times, they can claim the "Attended", and the host cannot delete the log.

 

Just a thought.

 

[edit: typos]

Sadly cache and event owners think that because they are given responsibility for quality control of the logs, they need to delete logs that don't meet their personal definition of attended or find. Also sadly, imo, Groundspeak has felt forced to put itself in the position of arbitrating disputes. So they have simplistic rules as to what is required to log a find or an attended. These make arbitration somewhat easier. Some cache or event owners may still want to be have more control. Whether it is that people visit all the stages in a multi or that they actually go on the hike.

 

I don't think there have been 60 flash mobs in 60 minutes because the event stacking rules could be use to stop that. But maybe there have been 20 flash mobs over a ten hour period with a half hour between each to get from one to another (and no doubt they were arranged to form geoart).

I assume you brought up this example because the current guidelines would still allow it, but I thought I'd point that out explicitly.

I guess you could have half-hour long flash mobs and after stopping at one for 10 minutes drive as fast as you can to the next on. But no, I was thinking of 5 to 10 minute flash mob events with a gap between each for those who wanted to get from one to another.

 

I find the often repeated "But you can still have that with the new guidelines - you just need someone to be at the posted coordinate from the start time to the stop time" a bit of a tiresome argument. I don't care if you find standing in one place for half an hour a simple, trivial task. Not everyone cares to do this and some people, believe it or not, may find it challenging.

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Have a look at e.g. what the guidelines said in April 2005

 

Event caches are gatherings that are open to all geocachers and which are organized by geocachers. After the event has passed, the event cache should be archived by the organizer within four weeks. While a music concert, a garage sale, a ham radio field day or town's fireworks display might be of interest to a large percentage of geocachers, such events are not suitable for submission as event caches because the organizers and the primary attendees are not geocachers. In addition, an event cache should not be set up for the sole purpose of drawing together cachers for an organized hunt of another cache or caches. Such group hunts are best organized using the forums or an email distribution list.

 

For geocaching events that involve several components, such as a day-long group cache hunt that also involves a seminar and dinner, only a single event cache covering all components should be submitted.

Yep. I don't see how that description allows for moving events - where the event itself is no longer at the posted coordinates after its start time.

Sorry, I not seeing where this old guideline says the entire event is at the posted coordinates. In fact there were events the attendees met at the posted coordinates then went off on some activity.

You conveniently left out my next point: And if reviewers did allow it, then they do not allow it today.

Additionally, it's implied that the event cache is at a single location (not a cache hunt, no event stacking). But granted it's not explicit and interpretation of the language would play a role in that understanding. Thus, the move to clarify. For whatever reason - whether they originally didn't intend it to be possible, or they did and now they've changed their minds. It doesn't matter. The rules have been changed to reflect what Groundspeak now wants the face of Event Caches to look like. In short, I read that paragraph, and I grasp the spirit of what they want Event Caches to be, and the rules as they are now make that very clear. Others interpret the 'old' rules differently, which makes this rule change seem like a banning of event activities that some reviewers allowed back then.

In the end, all that can be said is that the rules have changed.

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For others (closer to the Lilypad), moving events were rarely, if ever (and I mean a tiny, itsy-bitsy sliver of a percentage) published.

Not true! For the last couple of years there has been a series of events (for a while the CO was trying to do monthly, but dropped to quarterly events) published here in the Seattle area (i.e.. Lilypad-land) that were bicycle events: cachers meeting to ride bikes along a bike trail. There are always some caches along said trail, but that wasn't the purpose of the ride (many attendee's had already found many if not all the caches). These can no longer be listed on GC.com under the new rules. The 'workaround' doesn't make the moving activity part of the event, no matter how often you claim it does. It's still "after" the event, or "outside" of the event - however you put it, it's not part of the event. And that's what some of us don't like. Can we live with it, yes. Like it, no. Hence the discussion.

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How much longer will it be, before we can't mention activities outside of the event? We've seen restrictions on how much we can mention the venue, we seen restrictions on listing topics for discussion/teaching events (you no longer can have a class/event about GSAK, just a brief mention that some may discuss programs to help geocaching, but it must be optional), so I'm not holding out much hope for the 'workaround' to be useable for long. I expect that eventually we won't be able to mention an organized activity unrelated to the event to take place near by or soon after the Event.

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You conveniently left out my next point: And if reviewers did allow it, then they do not allow it today.

Additionally, it's implied that the event cache is at a single location (not a cache hunt, no event stacking). But granted it's not explicit and interpretation of the language would play a role in that understanding.

 

The guidelines from April 2005 mention group cache hunts as event activities (not the sole). So it is definitely not implied by the old formulation that the event cache is at a single location and interpretation of the language does not play a role. Event stacking was not forbidden back then either though I did not encounter a single case of it in my area. As I have said before, events have been something special to us - not something cheap available in affluence and not valuable any longer.

 

The new guidelines make it impossible for a lot of cachers to have an official geocaching event that is worth to be attended solely on the ground of what takes part within the official event accepted by Groundspeak.

 

While I consider a 4 hours campfire event as a candidate for an excellent event when it is well organized, I would not consider a one hour lunch break event at a summit as a candidate for the best event in a certain area if the hike is not part of the event. So despite being a fan of hiking events, if I had to rate the events, the first event would win by far when it comes to rating geocaching events.

I do not like this situation which favours events which spend a lot of time at one location.

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The guidelines from April 2005 mention group cache hunts as event activities (not the sole). So it is definitely not implied by the old formulation that the event cache is at a single location and interpretation of the language does not play a role. Event stacking was not forbidden back then either though I did not encounter a single case of it in my area. As I have said before, events have been something special to us - not something cheap available in affluence and not valuable any longer.

Official Events are not cheap. Official Events are not lame.

Only you as an attendee or the event host makes an event cheap. There is no excuse for publishing a "cheap" event unless you make it cheap. There are plenty of awesome activities that are not allowed as an Official Event. Now it includes some things you may have been able to do before. That does NOT make events cheap or lame.

 

The new guidelines make it impossible for a lot of cachers to have an official geocaching event that is worth to be attended solely on the ground of what takes part within the official event accepted by Groundspeak.

Yep. Because Groundspeak doesn't allow every type of activity YOU want to do as the purpose for an Official Geocaching.com Event Listing, even though they can supplementary activities. Get that already.

 

While I consider a 4 hours campfire event as a candidate for an excellent event when it is well organized, I would not consider a one hour lunch break event at a summit as a candidate for the best event in a certain area if the hike is not part of the event.

Bummer then.

 

So despite being a fan of hiking events, if I had to rate the events, the first event would win by far when it comes to rating geocaching events.

You don't have to rate events. You can choose to attend or not, or host or not. Stop rating them. Do what you enjoy. Provide what others enjoy. If you can't, then do it somewhere else, or another way.

 

I do not like this situation which favours events which spend a lot of time at one location.

Well too bad. Bummer then. That's the way it is now.

Edited by thebruce0
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For the last couple of years there has been a series of events (for a while the CO was trying to do monthly, but dropped to quarterly events) published here in the Seattle area (i.e.. Lilypad-land) that were bicycle events: cachers meeting to ride bikes along a bike trail. There are always some caches along said trail, but that wasn't the purpose of the ride (many attendee's had already found many if not all the caches). These can no longer be listed on GC.com under the new rules.

Have you tried? Or are you assuming?

 

The 'workaround' doesn't make the moving activity part of the event, no matter how often you claim it does. It's still "after" the event, or "outside" of the event - however you put it, it's not part of the event. And that's what some of us don't like. Can we live with it, yes. Like it, no. Hence the discussion.

That is exactly what we're saying, yes. It's not THE event, but it can be listed on the page as a supplementary activity. Even if you said the bike ride will be 3 hours long, but the Event takes place for an hour at the trailhead. Whatever. Doesn't matter. The event is the hour. And you invite people for the bike ride after. Do you know that this event will not be published by YOUR reviewer? If not, then don't make claims until you know for a fact. If you don't like it, appeal their decision and defend why you think it should be published. That is your right and ability as the Event Listing creator.

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You don't have to rate events. You can choose to attend or not, or host or not. Stop rating them. Do what you enjoy. Provide what others enjoy. If you can't, then do it somewhere else, or another way.

 

I never ever would come along with an event that I regard myself as low quality and an event which consists of meeting 30 minutes at a parking lot is low quality to me (it could well be something different for someone else).

It cannot be changed by what happens outside of the event as this outside part is not part of the event and cannot contribute to rising the quality of the event itself.

 

It's the same like I never would hide a park and grab cache.

Edited by cezanne
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You don't have to rate events. You can choose to attend or not, or host or not. Stop rating them. Do what you enjoy. Provide what others enjoy. If you can't, then do it somewhere else, or another way.

 

I never ever would come along with an event that I regard myself as low quality and an event which consists of meeting 30 minutes at a parking lot is low quality to me.

It cannot be changed by what happens outside as this outside part is not part of the event and cannot contribute to raising the quality of the event itself.

 

It's the same like I never would hide a park and grab cache. Many modern events are like cheap fastfood restaurants - they are nothing that can be seen as a highlight among the cache experiences over a couple of months or even a year.

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The guidelines from April 2005 mention group cache hunts as event activities (not the sole).

 

Event stacking was not forbidden back then ....

 

2005 Guideline wording (from the wayback machine):

 

In addition, an event cache should not be set up for the sole purpose of drawing together cachers for an organized hunt of another cache or caches. Such group hunts are best organized using the forums or an email distribution list.

 

For geocaching events that involve several components, such as a day-long group cache hunt that also involves a seminar and dinner, only a single event cache covering all components should be submitted.

 

I beg to differ.

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For others (closer to the Lilypad), moving events were rarely, if ever (and I mean a tiny, itsy-bitsy sliver of a percentage) published.

Not true! For the last couple of years there has been a series of events (for a while the CO was trying to do monthly, but dropped to quarterly events) published here in the Seattle area (i.e.. Lilypad-land) that were bicycle events: cachers meeting to ride bikes along a bike trail. There are always some caches along said trail, but that wasn't the purpose of the ride (many attendee's had already found many if not all the caches). These can no longer be listed on GC.com under the new rules. The 'workaround' doesn't make the moving activity part of the event, no matter how often you claim it does. It's still "after" the event, or "outside" of the event - however you put it, it's not part of the event. And that's what some of us don't like. Can we live with it, yes. Like it, no. Hence the discussion.

Can you post GC codes? There might be a case here which is better explained with context.

 

In the era of the guidelines cezanne was discussing (around 2005), I don't recall seeing any events that were 100% "moving" in Portland. I'm sure--positive, in fact--that I missed some which were "moving", but a full case that does not make.

 

Again, this comes back to Reviewers taking liberties with listing publication, and owners taking liberties with the guidelines according to Groundspeak. They have decided to clarify and ban and sadden via this update to the guidelines, which are more clearly interpreted by Reviewers and owners--thus putting the Event Cache train back on Groundspeak's tracks.

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While I consider a 4 hours campfire event as a candidate for an excellent event when it is well organized, I would not consider a one hour lunch break event at a summit as a candidate for the best event in a certain area if the hike is not part of the event. So despite being a fan of hiking events, if I had to rate the events, the first event would win by far when it comes to rating geocaching events.

I do not like this situation which favours events which spend a lot of time at one location.

Tomato, tomAAAHto.

 

Your "best event" will not be someone else's "best event". Remember heterogeneous? Yup, that.

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I do not like this situation which favours events which spend a lot of time at one location.
Well too bad. Bummer then. That's the way it is now.
And because that's the way it is now, we can't discuss how it could be better?

How could it be better? (Perhaps best as a new Forum topic, to set the tone properly?)

 

sit-back-and-watch-traffic-roll-in.gif

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Your "best event" will not be someone else's "best event". Remember heterogeneous? Yup, that.

 

Of course my best event will not be some else's best event.

 

However whenever I hide a cache I try to do my personal best I can do for that specific cache at that point of time. I refrain from hiding a cache if it does not meet my own criteria.

As events are regarded, the workaround does not meet my personal criteria for events neither from a event host's point of view nor from a visitor's point of view.

 

For me a event has to have a certain minimum length to be something I accept personally as a reasonable event and the guidelines as they are now there either would require to have longer breaks during physical activities than I regard as appropriate and pleasant or end up as something which is inattractive right from the beginning when it comes to what is offered as official event.

 

It's very strange that you and bruce0 keep telling those who would like to have real hiking events that the current guidelines do not allow them and that there exist workarounds (we all know that).

Why should we start a new thread when the thread is called hiking events?

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Your "best event" will not be someone else's "best event". Remember heterogeneous? Yup, that.

 

Of course my best event will not be some else's best event.

 

However whenever I hide a cache I try to do my personal best I can do for that specific cache at that point of time. I refrain from hiding a cache if it does not meet my own criteria.

As events are regarded, the workaround does not meet my personal criteria for events neither from a event host's point of view nor from a visitor's point of view.

 

For me a event has to have a certain minimum length to be something I accept personally as a reasonable event and the guidelines as they are now there either would require to have longer breaks during physical activities than I regard as appropriate and pleasant or end up as something which is inattractive right from the beginning when it comes to what is offered as official event.

 

It's very strange that you and bruce0 keep telling those who would like to have real hiking events that the current guidelines do not allow them and that there exist workarounds (we all know that).

Why should we start a new thread when the thread is called hiking events?

All irrelevant. Since you've joined the game, you've never hosted an event. This only means you'll bat 1000 at the rate you're going. If that stat suits you, go for it!

 

As said above, prove that you'll no longer be able to enjoy your ideal activities in relation to geocaching, and I'll buy what you're selling. Sadly, many here (and in other threads) have proven that you'll still find what you like. So...now you can let it go? :unsure:

 

As for the additional thread, I say that for what I consider obvious rationale for forum threads. It would be a new conversation, with more valid discussion (I would hope...). This "issue" isn't just about "hiking events"; we would take up discussion on what would constitute a "better" way to work within the "confines" of the guidelines.

Edited by NeverSummer
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All irrelevant. Since you've joined the game, you've never hosted an event. This only means you'll bat 1000 at the rate you're going. If that stat suits you, go for it!

 

Not irrelevant because others share my frustration about the changed event guidelines and the effect is already visible.

 

Among others I have also mentioned that the host of the ice skating event I recently attended is so fed up that she will not host the event for

a sixth time. She is not alone. Many event host have already given up.

 

we would take up discussion on what would constitute a "better" way to work within the "confines" of the guidelines.

 

I do not see a better way within those "confines". I see just a way for a better event guideline and I explained that already.

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All irrelevant. Since you've joined the game, you've never hosted an event. This only means you'll bat 1000 at the rate you're going. If that stat suits you, go for it!

 

Not irrelevant because others share my frustration about the changed event guidelines and the effect is already visible.

 

Among others I have also mentioned that the host of the ice skating event I recently attended is so fed up that she will not host the event for

a sixth time. She is not alone. Many event host have already given up.

 

we would take up discussion on what would constitute a "better" way to work within the "confines" of the guidelines.

 

I do not see a better way within those "confines". I see just a way for a better event guideline and I explained that already.

Put your actions where your words are. Sitting here spinning your wheels about how saddened, depressed, and worried you are isn't going to solve anything--not one thing.

 

So, put on an event that you'd like to see. Work with a Reviewer and Groundspeak to get it published within the guidelines. We've shown you, word-for-word how to write it, and we've been patient (sort of) in waiting for you to just give it a shot.

 

Beyond that, you are, in fact, just trolling.

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You don't have to rate events. You can choose to attend or not, or host or not. Stop rating them. Do what you enjoy. Provide what others enjoy. If you can't, then do it somewhere else, or another way.

 

I never ever would come along with an event that I regard myself as low quality and an event which consists of meeting 30 minutes at a parking lot is low quality to me (it could well be something different for someone else).

It cannot be changed by what happens outside of the event as this outside part is not part of the event and cannot contribute to rising the quality of the event itself.

 

It's the same like I never would hide a park and grab cache.

Ok then, so you'd better not show up to an event that someone decides to host that consists of a wonderful hike, after a 30 minute meet-n-greet at the parking and trailhead for anyone who wants to come by, whether they choose to go on the hike or not.

Because the hike isn't the event. And the meet-n-greet is 'low quality'.

 

But you know what? If you wouldn't feel "right" logging that event as attended even if you came 1 minute before the group left to hike, as fun as the host wants to make it (because it's just a boring sedentary 30 minute event to you), YOU CAN STILL GO ON THE HIKE.

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