Jump to content

Hiking Events


HikingSeal
Followers 5

Recommended Posts

Well caveat: this is going to become a long post again, but as you somehow asked again.

 

Of COURSE people can socialize and hike at the same time! To suggest that even one person or entity here would think otherwise is a ludicrous straw man.

 

On the one hand, at least I understood a number of statements in this thread in the way that some cachers here think that socializing and hiking do not go well together or go less well together than for example eating and socializing. On the other hand, if hiking and socializing are a good combination for the target group and if indeed the worry that some cachers might use hiking events for caches is causing the ban of real hiking events, then that's a real shame that once again those who are sincere and follow the spirit get punished (and yes, I feel that way regardless of the existence of workarounds).

 

A picnic that you have to hike to is still a picnic and hiking event.

 

A event that announces a picnic at the meeting point which lasts for 4 hours is a pure picnic event in my eyes.

Even when a meeting point and time at a potential trailhead were given and most of the attendants were hiking to the picnic together (not the case in the example), I would classify this event as a hiking event as the distance to the event location does not seem to be that large (roughly one mile as I understood it - so one need 15 minutes to the cache location one way - hardly a hike in my opinion and not in relation to the 4 hours picnic).

 

You don't like picnics?

 

That is not relevant for my classification. If I drive to a ice skating pond where an event takes place by car it is still an ice skating event and not a car driving event.

 

The organized option for socializing takes place during the picnic at the example event. If I wanted to have some socializing also during the hike I would have to contact some cachers by myself, apart from the fact that the walk is short.

 

Fine. Leave. You still get your smiley if that's what you came for. You still got your hike, if that's what you came for.

 

For me it's neither about smilies, nor about going for a hike alone or with some people I need to organize. A hiking event offers the same option for socializing than a meet and greet at a restaurant with the sole difference that the side activity is hiking and not eating. The example event not even suggests a route or a parking lot - so in this respect every normal hiking multi cache is to be preferred from my point of view. There I at least do not need to do the planning myself and if I want to organize someone who joins me, I can do that there too. A real hiking event is different in the sense that I do not need do all this planning and I do not need to try to convince others to join me.

 

If I hike in to a picnic event that takes place for 4 hours, I would feel extremely ashamed to leave after a few minutes and would not have ended up with lots of possibilities for socializing. Those who prefer socializing while hiking to socializing while sitting or standing are not well served by the example event. There are certainly people who are good at socializing and do not need special requirements - they can even socialize nicely if they do not feel well in a setting. I can't. The example event would typically work out for me as follows: I walk alone to the picnic area or accompanied by a friend who might have talked me into attending the even and then would spend some time at the picnic without ending up with that much socializing. A picnic event that takes place for 4 hours and is reachable by a short walk (so not at least 1 hour one way) attracts a completely different audience than a real hiking event.

In my area such an event have at least four times as many participants as a hiking event and it would already be hard for me to find and identify those at the event I'd like to talk to because there is something that connects me to them.

In a smaller group I can talk longer with a person which fits my personality and communication style much better. At events with 100 or more participants I feel terribly lost. Somehow the typical expected behaviour is to spend some minutes to talk to A, then talk to B etc and never get end up with a consider as an interesting communication. It's mainly smalltalk.

Link to comment

Cool! All of that is about YOU!

 

This means that you don't have to go to that picnic if you don't want to. You could coordinate ahead of time which people you'd hike to the hilltop picnic with, and then wave hello at the top and turn around to go back.

 

Also, if you hyperventilate at the idea of a 100 person event, then you don't have to go. If someone is a myopic anstisocial sociopath, then they're not well served by the ideal Groundspeak Event Cache, where socialization is the key to getting it published. It would be nice to cater to the most specific of events and to each person on their own personalities, but if they don't meet the Guidelines, they won't get published at Event Caches.

 

It sounds like you enjoy it when:

-Someone else organizes the event

-The event includes a physical activity such as a hike

-You don't have to do a thing other than show up; no planning beyond lacing your boots at home required for you, personally

-The event doesn't "sit still"

-The "smiley" doesn't matter

-Your needs are met on your terms for "socializing"

-Events are under 100 people, especially if any part of the event is sitting still

 

Have I missed anything? Perhaps I have.

 

Now, let me say, there is nothing wrong with having personal preferences. It's great that you like hiking or skating events which might move from the coordinates, or might be more active than sitting around "eating pizza". I agree completely. I enjoy some of the "sedentary" event aspects, but I prefer to get out and about, because that's what we geocachers are good at!

 

The reality is, the guidelines don't really allow for all of those things you want to be embedded in each event that gets published. It also limits your options for what you prefer seeing in an event, such as a "moving event" where you hike or raft, etc. The problem is, cezanne, the "no moving events" thing has been a part of the guidelines for some time. What has happened, most likely from what we can gather from what you've said on the forums, is that your Reviewers were not clear on this requirement that events be at coordinates listed, and therefore allowed your region and cachers within to publish caches which move. That did 2 things, in essence: 1. gave you the kind of caches you like. Woohoo! 2. Set a precedent where the guidelines were not being followed correctly.

 

Now, with the clarification and addition of these new parts to the guidelines, you're learning for the first time this week that your favorite kind of event is, well, not allowed. It's like you've been told there's a death in the family; you've grown so attached to events as you like them, and as they've been in your area, you didn't even realize that they were not aligned with the guidelines--even before this clarification. And that must stink for you. And I'm sorry. I think we're all very sorry, and feel some empathy or sympathy for your situation.

 

But the reality is, you can't have a moving event. You can, however, still include the hike or rafting or skating in the event, so long as it meets the guidelines. To meet the guidelines there only needs to be a clearly written description that a Reviewer can validate to include a period of required time at the coordinates. In this case now, going forward, means 30 minutes, minimum.

 

You can wallow for a bit longer, but you need to accept the reality of the situation. It's a bit of cognitive dissonance, yes? Ears ringing, head spinning, sadness in your heart...yeah, that. But take some time, work through your emotions, and embrace the fact that there is still a way to do what you like to do at events--hike, skate, bike, raft, paddle, walk, play leapfrog...move! Yes! Celebrate!

Edited by NeverSummer
Link to comment

Cool! All of that is about YOU!

 

Of course it is about me when I reply why I enjoy the type of hiking events I described and why a picnic event is not a hiking event for me. About whom else should it be?

 

I very well know that I do not need to attend events that are not to my liking - I'm attending so much fewer events than the cachers around me for a good reason.

It still makes me miss a special type of event very much that I enjoyed very much despite of whatever deficiencies you might attribute to me.

 

I did not say that the reviewers should publish events that do not meet the guidelines. I'm deeply regretting that the guidelines ban events that are the most suitable ones for me. That could hardly be a crime. Be happy that you can attend events of the type you enjoy.

 

I wonder where you took from that I learnt for the first time this week that Groundspeak does not allow any longer moving events. Of course I'm aware of that for a longer time and it also came up in the discussion we had about the T-rating. At the time when moving events were published in my area, they have been published all around the world. What happened this week however was that post using terms like overachievers which make it clear that there are also underachievers for Groundspeak and that really annoyed me as it automatically turns all events that use the workaround and include a short meeting period to something weak in the eyes of Groundspeak and that's definitely not a matter of the guidelines. I feel very much hurt by such statements.

Edited by cezanne
Link to comment

Cool! All of that is about YOU!

I very well know that I do not need to attend events that are not to my liking - I'm attending so much fewer events than the cachers around me for a good reason.

It still makes me miss a special type of event very much that I enjoyed very much despite of whatever deficiencies you might attribute to me.

 

Several methods to closely approximate the type of special event you want have been posited. Examples were even provided (yes, some were kayaking events, but the basic concept could be extended to hiking events). You seem unwilling to even try to embrace these "hacks"/"work-arounds" and try them.

 

My extended kayaking events seem to produce the effect you want - a bunch of people enjoying the company of others, discussing all manner of things (caching and non-caching alike) and having a ton of laughs - all within the framework of the GC guidelines. Yet you dismiss them because "Groundspeak doesn't allowing moving events, which is what I want to list."

 

Try it, you may like it.

 

[edit - minor grammar correction]

Edited by BBWolf+3Pigs
Link to comment

Several methods to closely approximate the type of special event you want have been posited. Examples were even provided (yes, some were kayaking events, but the basic concept could be extended to hiking events). You seem unwilling to even try to embrace these "hacks"/"work-arounds" and try them.

 

As I have said before I'm not able to meet the high expectations that modern geocaching has on event owners - I need to rely on what gets organized. And the more the rules change they more the oldtimers with old school ideas give up and leave. Others have their small inofficial events with their clique of friends. And the majority is enjoying events that do not appeal at all to me.

 

My extended kayaking events seem to produce the effect you want - a bunch of people enjoying the company of others, discussing all manner of things (caching and non-caching alike) and having a ton of laughs - all within the framework of the GC guidelines. Yet you dismiss them because "Groundspeak doesn't allowing moving events, which is what I want to list."

 

I do not want to list any event cache at all as I then would have duties I know I cannot fulfill and even less for the masses to be expected (that's another difference to your area - I envy how small those events are you provided as examples).

Link to comment

Several methods to closely approximate the type of special event you want have been posited. Examples were even provided (yes, some were kayaking events, but the basic concept could be extended to hiking events). You seem unwilling to even try to embrace these "hacks"/"work-arounds" and try them.

 

As I have said before I'm not able to meet the high expectations that modern geocaching has on event owners - I need to rely on what gets organized. And the more the rules change they more the oldtimers with old school ideas give up and leave. Others have their small inofficial events with their clique of friends. And the majority is enjoying events that do not appeal at all to me.

 

 

So, you don't like the events being offered, and don't want to organize one that you would like. Got it.

 

I am not sure what "high expectations" are being levied on event owners that you are unable to meet. If people don't want to go to your event, that is their issue, not yours.

 

List an event (similar to one of my kayaking events, but maybe with a shorter "lunch stop"), with the expectation that no one shows up. See what happens. You may be surprised that there are others out there that would love to join you on a hike through the woods, with a stop at some scenic location.

 

I figured I'd get a few people on my first kayak event. I got over 20 paddlers.

 

Try it, you'll like it.

 

[edit - quoting mistakes]

Edited by BBWolf+3Pigs
Link to comment

Cool! All of that is about YOU!

 

I see cezanne already responded. +1

 

Of course its about him. Geocaching is about many different individuals who enjoy various aspects of this activity for as many reasons are there are geocachers.

 

When guidelines limit options for caches or events, somebody is bound to feel that the thing they enjoyed is getting short schrift (even if not outright banned). What's worse is when there are people who insist on seeing only winners in the change. Sure your might prevent some abuses by requiring an activity at a fixed location for some minimum durataion. But perhaps there are other ways to prevent these abuses that would still allow an event to be just a hike. And perhaps the real issue is not that people find geocaches together but that Groundspeak would like to encourage people to go geocaching even when there isn't an event. If they really want events to have other activities beyond finding geocaches, maybe they need to have a list of acceptable event activities. If hiking isn't an acceptable stand alone activity for an event, perhaps a picnic, drinking beer, or playing pin the tail on the donkey, shouldn't be acceptable stand alone events. Maybe the guidelines should require a lecture on a geocaching topic, showing slides or video from a geocaching trip, or playing a party game with a geocaching theme (put the travel bug in the micro)?

Link to comment

So, you don't like the events being offered, and don't want to organize one that you would like. Got it.

 

The problem is that those who would want to organize events got demotivated by the rule changes.

As it concerns me, I know what I'm bad at.

 

I am not sure what "high expectations" are being levied on event owners that you are unable to meet. If people don't want to go to your event, that is their issue, not yours.

 

I agree, but that's not the issue.

 

I cannot cope with 100+ people who all expect to be welcomed, a few sentences here and there, a bit of smalltalk there and not the chance to talk more intensely with some people

when the topic becomes interesting.

 

 

List an event (similar to one of my kayaking events, but maybe with a shorter "lunch stop"), with the expectation that no one shows up. See what happens. You may be surprised that there are others out there that would love to join you on a hike through the woods, with a stop at some scenic location.

 

I'm not fearing that not enough people show up, but rather too many. If I were the organizer with the responsability, I would need to select a very easy hike starting from a large parking lot etc.

Less people show up if it is remote and the trail is challenging, but there I would need to rely on someone experienced.

Link to comment

 

I figured I'd get a few people on my first kayak event. I got over 20 paddlers.

 

 

Just a heads up. I'll be submitting a proposal in a couple of days to teach a workshop at a conference August 14-16 in Boston (I've been pretty much been told I'll be going anyway). It's a short enough distance that I can drive and throw my kayak on my roof rack. If I recall, Boston is pretty close to R.I.

 

 

 

Link to comment

 

I figured I'd get a few people on my first kayak event. I got over 20 paddlers.

 

 

Just a heads up. I'll be submitting a proposal in a couple of days to teach a workshop at a conference August 14-16 in Boston (I've been pretty much been told I'll be going anyway). It's a short enough distance that I can drive and throw my kayak on my roof rack. If I recall, Boston is pretty close to R.I.

 

Keep me posted. I am sure we can arrange for something. Always looking for a reason to get my boat wet.

Link to comment

So, you don't like the events being offered, and don't want to organize one that you would like. Got it.

 

The problem is that those who would want to organize events got demotivated by the rule changes.

As it concerns me, I know what I'm bad at.

 

I am not sure what "high expectations" are being levied on event owners that you are unable to meet. If people don't want to go to your event, that is their issue, not yours.

 

I agree, but that's not the issue.

 

I cannot cope with 100+ people who all expect to be welcomed, a few sentences here and there, a bit of smalltalk there and not the chance to talk more intensely with some people

when the topic becomes interesting.

 

 

List an event (similar to one of my kayaking events, but maybe with a shorter "lunch stop"), with the expectation that no one shows up. See what happens. You may be surprised that there are others out there that would love to join you on a hike through the woods, with a stop at some scenic location.

 

I'm not fearing that not enough people show up, but rather too many. If I were the organizer with the responsability, I would need to select a very easy hike starting from a large parking lot etc.

Less people show up if it is remote and the trail is challenging, but there I would need to rely on someone experienced.

 

So, the way I read this, even if GS allowed the type of event you would love to have, you'd never run it.

Edited by BBWolf+3Pigs
Link to comment

So, the way I read this, even if GS allowed the type of event you would love to have, you'd never run it.

What's your point?

 

cezanne would like to go on hike with other geocachers. He prefers to be able to look on GC.com for events that are hikes or involve a hiking activity. It isn't important to him whether there are caches to find on the hike or not. He simply wants to socialize with other geocachers who enjoy the same hobbies he does.

 

Certainly someone could have an event with hiking as an activity and say that 1/2 before the hike they will meet at the trailhead for a meet and greet. cezanne may feel that this requirement may result in the hike not being listed at all, or he may feel that even though he could show up just before the hike, he is still being made to participate in the part of the event he is not interested in.

 

While he hasn't said it, there are those who also find this a bit unfair. If your hobby is scrapbooking, or bowling, or beer drinking you could have an event with just that activity. There is no requirement to tack on an extra half hour long activity. It may be implied that if you are at a bowling alley or restaurant people can show up and "attend" the event without participating in the stated activity, but you don't really have to say this. Except perhaps if you have a reviewer who insists that you have to put in the listing "Beer drinking is not required".

 

Yet on the other hand with a hike, you could post the coordinates for the 1/2 hour event in the middle of the hike. Now hiking is clearly required. So the point of the rule doesn't seem to be that the event be opened to non-hikers (or non beer drinkers) Instead it comes across as if TPTB think that geocachers can't walk and socialize at the same time.

 

Sure Groundspeak can have guidelines for what they list as events. But when they give a rationale that seems to have no logic, it should not be surprising the there multiple multi-page threads about it.

Link to comment

So, the way I read this, even if GS allowed the type of event you would love to have, you'd never run it.

What's your point?

 

He has stated in many previous posts, he would like to be able to hold a hiking event. But in the post I quote, I get the impression he wouldn't want to host one. That's the point.

Link to comment

...or he may feel that even though he could show up just before the hike, he is still being made to participate in the part of the event he is not interested in.

:rolleyes: You're joking, right? She could sit in her car, wait until 30 seconds before the "official" part of the event is over, then join everyone for the hike. I just cannot imagine anyone feeling that's an onerous requirement.

Link to comment

...or he may feel that even though he could show up just before the hike, he is still being made to participate in the part of the event he is not interested in.

:rolleyes: You're joking, right? She could sit in her car, wait until 30 seconds before the "official" part of the event is over, then join everyone for the hike. I just cannot imagine anyone feeling that's an onerous requirement.

 

Of course it is not this requirement that bothers me.

Link to comment

 

So, the way I read this, even if GS allowed the type of event you would love to have, you'd never run it.

 

If GS still allowed that type of event, others would hold them who are much better suited for such a job than myself. I already explained that for a hiking event where I'm responsible for everything I would have to expect much more participants than I could handle in a reasonable way. I cannot aim for a event in difficult terrain and in a lonesome area as I'm lacking the required experience to take that responsibility.

 

In any case, the guideline changes and also the way how the community changed, changed the type of available events in my area.

For example, I just attended an event which took place in the 5-th edition and has originally been planned as ice skating event. This year the event had to be a 1/1 event - in the years before the ratings were higher - cachers could log attended logs in the year before but they needed special tricks to motivate the event organizer to come over to the edge of the ice area and allowed them to log on her creative log cloth (actually, they could have logged without that too, but noone did so). It's quite likely that this year's event was the last one of that type. The event organizer is frustrated.

Link to comment

... in the years before the ratings were higher - cachers could log attended logs in the year before but they needed special tricks to motivate the event organizer to come over to the edge of the ice area and allowed them to log on her creative log cloth (actually, they could have logged without that too, but noone did so). It's quite likely that this year's event was the last one of that type. The event organizer is frustrated.

Sounds like the problem here is not the minimum time or even the cache in one place guideline, but the guideline for logging an event which states "Event Cache owners can request that cachers sign a logbook, but this is optional and cannot be a requirement for logging an Event Cache." The event owner can still have the log cloth, particularly since she didn't delete online log of people came and didn't skate whether or not they signed the log.

 

Seems you're more upset that the reviewer says the D/T is 1/1. I find this a silly requirement that is put on the reviewers. If there are activities at the event that have a higher terrain why not allow that to be reflected even if not everyone participates in the activity. Same for difficulty; if an activity is difficult to complete, allow the event to show that difficulty.

 

The problem is that Groundspeak and reviewers seem to want to force the D to be the difficulty in scoring a W_I_G_A_S point (sorry about circumventing the profanity filter, I felt it was appropriate place to use that acronym). If a cache or event has a difficult component that may be optional, is can't be reflected in the D/T rating.

 

cezanne will be happy to know that I am reviewing the D rataing on all my puzzles since no one is actually required to solve the puzzle to log a find. Someone can get the answers from a friend or from a "spoiler" site. I suspect I'll be changing some 5/4 puzzle to 1.5/4 (Can't do anything about shortening the hike.)

Edited by tozainamboku
Link to comment

 

Sounds like the problem here is not the minimum time or even the cache in one place guideline, but the guideline for logging an event which states "Event Cache owners can request that cachers sign a logbook, but this is optional and cannot be a requirement for logging an Event Cache." The event owner can still have the log cloth, particularly since she didn't delete online log of people came and didn't skate whether or not they signed the log.

 

No, it is not really the problem as she never deleted a log. It was just a nice thing that those who really did not want to skate, brought along chocolates and other sweets (even though it was not necessary to log on the cloth for logging an attended log - it was just nice to sign the very special cloth) and more cachers were motivated to take part in skating when it was not a 1/1 event. It was not a must to skate and not a must to sign anything.

 

Seems you're more upset that the reviewer says the D/T is 1/1.

 

I guess for the cachers around here who were used to much less strict guidelines, it is just a combination of many changes over the time and the increased interference of Groundspeak what an event could be and what one is allowed to write etc

 

The ice skating event was just one example. The hiking events I liked the most do not even take place any longer.

 

And to be honest, even if I lived in an area where only say 30 participants came to an easy hiking event and not much more (so a group I could handle), I would very much feel ashamed to announce an event at Groundspeak where what Groundspeak official recognizes as event takes only 30 minutes. I still feel that Groundspeak is not welcoming 30 minutes events followed by a hike which cannot be part of the event in the same way than a 5 hours event at a restaurant and that's the point which bothers me the most as my own opinion is concerned. And I think that many other cachers in my area share this opinion and so the workaround is not attractive for them.

 

Having 30 minutes events cheapens events for me in the same manner as 1/1 ratings and the enforcement to stay on one place.

 

 

Cezanne

Link to comment

I cannot cope with 100+ people who all expect to be welcomed, a few sentences here and there, a bit of smalltalk there and not the chance to talk more intensely with some people

when the topic becomes interesting.

 

This just has to be an excuse. Events more or less run themselves. There is no obligation to hold hands and do sing-a-longs at an event. Some of the biggest events in our area are hosted by the infamous King Boreas and he usually just sits at a table and waits for cachers to come to him to talk (no, not because he has an attitude, but because he's naturally shy and introverted).

 

I have the same fears so I choose to host events with a specific theme.. paddling events, rappelling events, etc.

Link to comment

I cannot cope with 100+ people who all expect to be welcomed, a few sentences here and there, a bit of smalltalk there and not the chance to talk more intensely with some people

when the topic becomes interesting.

 

This just has to be an excuse. Events more or less run themselves.

 

Good events which are something special do not run themselves.

 

There is no obligation to hold hands and do sing-a-longs at an event. Some of the biggest events in our area are hosted by the infamous King Boreas and he usually just sits at a table and waits for cachers to come to him to talk (no, not because he has an attitude, but because he's naturally shy and introverted).

 

It could well be that this is a commonly accepted behaviour in your area for an event host. In mine this is not the case.

 

 

I have the same fears so I choose to host events with a specific theme.. paddling events, rappelling events, etc.

 

I would do the same if I had those abilities which unfortunately is not the case. That's why I tried to explain that the outdoor events involving physical activity that I could organize and at the same time cope with the involved responsibility would have to be events with lots of attendants. There are simply too many cachers in my area meanwhile.

 

I think that it's very difficult for people coming from a completely different area and geocaching scene to understand the particular situation I'm writing about.

Link to comment

I cannot cope with 100+ people who all expect to be welcomed, a few sentences here and there, a bit of smalltalk there and not the chance to talk more intensely with some people

when the topic becomes interesting.

 

This just has to be an excuse. Events more or less run themselves.

 

Good events which are something special do not run themselves.

 

There is no obligation to hold hands and do sing-a-longs at an event. Some of the biggest events in our area are hosted by the infamous King Boreas and he usually just sits at a table and waits for cachers to come to him to talk (no, not because he has an attitude, but because he's naturally shy and introverted).

 

It could well be that this is a commonly accepted behaviour in your area for an event host. In mine this is not the case.

 

 

I have the same fears so I choose to host events with a specific theme.. paddling events, rappelling events, etc.

 

I would do the same if I had those abilities which unfortunately is not the case. That's why I tried to explain that the outdoor events involving physical activity that I could organize and at the same time cope with the involved responsibility would have to be events with lots of attendants. There are simply too many cachers in my area meanwhile.

 

I think that it's very difficult for people coming from a completely different area and geocaching scene to understand the particular situation I'm writing about.

 

You have been a member since 2002 and not hosted a single event so not quite sure how the new rules affect you.

Link to comment

You have been a member since 2002 and not hosted a single event so not quite sure how the new rules affect you.

 

I had no need to host an event as others who did a better job than I ever could organized the events I enjoyed to participate in.

I already provided a concrete example of an event (though not a hiking event) which will not take place in the future as the event host got fed up by the changed rules.

Many others have already given up due to some earlier changes. So, yes, the event rules definitely affect me.

Edited by cezanne
Link to comment

You have been a member since 2002 and not hosted a single event so not quite sure how the new rules affect you.

 

I had no need to host an event as others who did a better job than I ever could organized the events I enjoyed to participate in.

I already provided a concrete example of an event (though not a hiking event) which will not take place in the future as the event host got fed up by the changed rules.

Many others have already given up due to some earlier changes. So, yes, the event rules definitely affect me.

 

The new rules have a very minor impact on hiking events, I'd hate to see what would happen in your area if GS made a drastic change.

 

what-are-some-weird-state-laws-811588945-sep-20-2012-1-600x400.jpg

Link to comment

The new rules have a very minor impact on hiking events, I'd hate to see what would happen in your area if GS made a drastic change.

 

The sum of the changes over the last years let real hiking events almost die out in my area.

Edited by cezanne
Link to comment

The new rules have a very minor impact on hiking events, I'd hate to see what would happen in your area if GS made a drastic change.

 

The sum of the changes over the last years let real hiking events almost die out in my area.

 

I revert you back to my picture, maybe it's a prediction for your area if GS keep making changes in the coming months/years.

 

There is a saying about those that can not adapt.

Edited by Roman!
Link to comment

There is a saying about those that can not adapt.

Geocachers are well know for adapting (finding workarounds) and I suspect that various kinds of events will find ways to continue.

 

Perhaps cezanne (who has been around far longer than most) still recalls when the guidelines actually contained language to encourage innovations, along with suggestions to bring ideas to the forum to gauge interest as well as discuss ways to acomplished things not necessarily considered in the guidelines.

 

What may have changed is the number of geocachers who never knew a situation other than one where the guidelines are what they are and aren't worth challenging.

 

There seems to be some concern that the current set of guidelines changes effect some events that either were just the hike or got by with a short meeting as the start after which most of those who showed up went on the hike. It seems likely that some people who did host hiking events will not bother anymore because of the new rules. If that happens, cezanne can be legitimately concerned that he will have trouble finding hikes.

 

Perhaps Groundspeak could have a new listing type for hikes and other activities that don't involve sitting in one place long enough to form meaningful relationships <_<. And if some of you are concerned that people will earn a smiley for hiking or ice skating, not count these activities in the "find" (not the word I wanted to use) count.

Edited by tozainamboku
Link to comment

I wanted to say thank you to everyone who provided a useful reply to Question 3 of my original post. Between this and a local discussion I have some good ideas on how to keep the SMHS hikes going while keeping Groundspeak happy with the cache pages.

 

As for Question 1 it's clear there is not a definitive answer. It's a darn shame that some folks are too obtuse both as attendees and owners to make any event work. It seems like any time we get ridiculous rule changes like no "moving" events and time limits, it is because someone was going for numbers or trying to deny someone else's number seeking behaviors. Heck, the mere fact that we in Utah are experiencing a change a year after everyone else is a testament to people pointing fingers and saying "Hey, they are not playing this world wide cross cultures game the same way we are. That's not fair to ME!" Not sure why hiking events bother people in Europe or other parts of the US but so be it. dadgum shame! It would be lovely if people would just play nice.

 

As for Question 2 a few people expressed interest in discussing it but no one seems interested in doing so. If anyone would like to, I'd love to hear your thoughts on that.

 

Otherwise thanks for the ideas!

Link to comment

I cannot cope with 100+ people who all expect to be welcomed, a few sentences here and there, a bit of smalltalk there and not the chance to talk more intensely with some people

when the topic becomes interesting.

 

This just has to be an excuse. Events more or less run themselves. There is no obligation to hold hands and do sing-a-longs at an event. Some of the biggest events in our area are hosted by the infamous King Boreas and he usually just sits at a table and waits for cachers to come to him to talk (no, not because he has an attitude, but because he's naturally shy and introverted).

 

I have the same fears so I choose to host events with a specific theme.. paddling events, rappelling events, etc.

 

For those that don't know, the poster is known locally as the shy, introverted bflentje.

Link to comment

There is a saying about those that can not adapt.

Geocachers are well know for adapting (finding workarounds) and I suspect that various kinds of events will find ways to continue.

 

Perhaps cezanne (who has been around far longer than most) still recalls when the guidelines actually contained language to encourage innovations, along with suggestions to bring ideas to the forum to gauge interest as well as discuss ways to acomplished things not necessarily considered in the guidelines.

 

What may have changed is the number of geocachers who never knew a situation other than one where the guidelines are what they are and aren't worth challenging.

 

There seems to be some concern that the current set of guidelines changes effect some events that either were just the hike or got by with a short meeting as the start after which most of those who showed up went on the hike. It seems likely that some people who did host hiking events will not bother anymore because of the new rules. If that happens, cezanne can be legitimately concerned that he will have trouble finding hikes.

 

Perhaps Groundspeak could have a new listing type for hikes and other activities that don't involve sitting in one place long enough to form meaningful relationships dry.gif. And if some of you are concerned that people will earn a smiley for hiking or ice skating, not count these activities in the "find" (not the word I wanted to use) count.

 

Well put.

Link to comment

I have the same fears so I choose to host events with a specific theme.. paddling events, rappelling events, etc.

 

For those that don't know, the poster is known locally as the shy, introverted bflentje.

 

Yes, and what's that going to prove? I cannot choose to host such events as I do not have the required capabilities and moreover the events in my area are larger. For example, a camp fire event would not have 30 attended logs, but say 120 and more than 200 participants. The last time I encountered events with 15 attended logs was many years ago.

Link to comment

There seems to be some concern that the current set of guidelines changes effect some events that either were just the hike or got by with a short meeting as the start after which most of those who showed up went on the hike. It seems likely that some people who did host hiking events will not bother anymore because of the new rules. If that happens, cezanne can be legitimately concerned that he will have trouble finding hikes.

 

Yes, it would be a shame if the local event holders would be unwilling to modify their events to come into compliance with the new guidelines (regardless of what one may think of them) and continue to hold events with the same flavor.

 

As has been shown, you can host an event where hiking/kayaking/biking/etc. is the main activity, but stay compliant to the guidelines.

Link to comment

I have the same fears so I choose to host events with a specific theme.. paddling events, rappelling events, etc.

 

For those that don't know, the poster is known locally as the shy, introverted bflentje.

 

Yes, and what's that going to prove? I cannot choose to host such events as I do not have the required capabilities and moreover the events in my area are larger. For example, a camp fire event would not have 30 attended logs, but say 120 and more than 200 participants. The last time I encountered events with 15 attended logs was many years ago.

 

Chill. That was strictly a joke!

Link to comment

There seems to be some concern that the current set of guidelines changes effect some events that either were just the hike or got by with a short meeting as the start after which most of those who showed up went on the hike. It seems likely that some people who did host hiking events will not bother anymore because of the new rules. If that happens, cezanne can be legitimately concerned that he will have trouble finding hikes.

 

Yes, it would be a shame if the local event holders would be unwilling to modify their events to come into compliance with the new guidelines (regardless of what one may think of them) and continue to hold events with the same flavor.

 

As has been shown, you can host an event where hiking/kayaking/biking/etc. is the main activity, but stay compliant to the guidelines.

I think you miss the point I'm making. Sure, one can make a hike/kayak/bike event compliant by including a 30 minute period at a fixed location.

 

For many people who organize these events adding that period may not be as trivial as you make it. You need a location where everyone can stand around comfortably for the period. Maybe that means some shelter from the elements. Maybe that means benches or picnic tables to sit at. Maybe it means drinking water, or toilet facilities. For some people 30 minutes is short enough to do without, but that can't be generalized. Particularly as people who may not be physically able to do the hike/kayak/bike may attend this compliance activity.

 

Add to this that someone who wants to organize a bike ride or other moving event may find the compliance activity a silly burden that none of the people participating in the ride really care to do. Of course everyone could show up at the very end of the compliance activity and just do the ride, but then you've basically just added an activity that either has nobody attends or that simply exists to accomodate the people who don't ride. Why bother just to get the event listed on GC.com? You can have hiking/kayaking/biking events but they will be organized on Facebook. Only the people who follow the local geocaching groups on Facebook will know of these events. People who rely on GC.com to find events will simply not know about them. The rules will result in events that are enjoyed by many cachers no longer being listed on GC.com. Only a few will add the compliance activity now that it must be at least 30 minutes.

Edited by tozainamboku
Link to comment

There seems to be some concern that the current set of guidelines changes effect some events that either were just the hike or got by with a short meeting as the start after which most of those who showed up went on the hike. It seems likely that some people who did host hiking events will not bother anymore because of the new rules. If that happens, cezanne can be legitimately concerned that he will have trouble finding hikes.

 

Yes, it would be a shame if the local event holders would be unwilling to modify their events to come into compliance with the new guidelines (regardless of what one may think of them) and continue to hold events with the same flavor.

 

As has been shown, you can host an event where hiking/kayaking/biking/etc. is the main activity, but stay compliant to the guidelines.

I think you miss the point I'm making. Sure, one can make a hike/kayak/bike event compliant by including a 30 minute period at a fixed location.

 

For many people who organize these events adding that period may not be as trivial as you make it. You need a location where everyone can stand around comfortably for the period. Maybe that means some shelter from the elements. Maybe that means benches or picnic tables to sit at. Maybe it means drinking water, or toilet facilities. For some people 30 minutes is short enough to do without, but that can't be generalized. Particularly as people who may not be physically able to do the hike/kayak/bike may attend this compliance activity.

 

Add to this that someone who wants to organize a bike ride or other moving event may find the compliance activity a silly burden that none of the people participating in the ride really care to do. Of course everyone could show up at the very end of the compliance activity and just do the ride, but then you've basically just added an activity that either has nobody attends or that simply exists to accomodate the people who don't ride. Why bother just to get the event listed on GC.com? You can have hiking/kayaking/biking events but they will be organized on Facebook. Only the people who follow the local geocaching groups on Facebook will know of these events. People who rely on GC.com to find events will simply not know about them. The rules will result in events that are enjoyed by many cachers no longer being listed on GC.com. Only a few will add the compliance activity now that it must be at least 30 minutes.

We could address each specific case where this might be an issue, but it's just not productive.

 

What is productive is looking at the site where a hike might originate, and finding a way to make that site work according to the guidelines.

 

That might mean:

  • Parking lot
  • Trailhead sign
  • I wait at my vehicle for 30 minutes and wave attendees my way
  • I assign a meadow down the way as the rally point
  • I create an event where a mid-point becomes the event location, and the hike is included in the write-up as part of the event
  • etc
  • etc
  • etc

 

I said it in the other thread: If someone isn't sure how to make their event work with the new guidelines, they can email me directly and I'll help with the write up. Why is it that much harder to ask a few questions of another cacher (including a Reviewer!) how to make the event one wants get published on Geocaching.com?

 

If someone is "so overwhelmed" by the new guidelines that they choose to no longer host, they're not someone who I think really should be hosting an event anyway. It would be great if people would just see this as an opportunity to keep the events going in the way they like. It just means being a little more thoughtful and deliberate with the listing...which isn't all bad, is it??

Link to comment

Add to this that someone who wants to organize a bike ride or other moving event may find the compliance activity a silly burden that none of the people participating in the ride really care to do. Of course everyone could show up at the very end of the compliance activity and just do the ride, but then you've basically just added an activity that either has nobody attends or that simply exists to accomodate the people who don't ride. Why bother just to get the event listed on GC.com? You can have hiking/kayaking/biking events but they will be organized on Facebook. Only the people who follow the local geocaching groups on Facebook will know of these events. People who rely on GC.com to find events will simply not know about them. The rules will result in events that are enjoyed by many cachers no longer being listed on GC.com. Only a few will add the compliance activity now that it must be at least 30 minutes.

Yep.

All of this.

You've just described what presumably Groundspeak has willingly accepted in deciding to set these rules.

They want Official Geocaching.com Event Listing to be specifc types of activities. And, once again, moving activities are not the types of activities they want defining said Events.

So everything you said is completely true.

Link to comment

They want Official Geocaching.com Event Listing to be specifc types of activities. And, once again, moving activities are not the types of activities they want defining said Events.

 

But then you essentially agree with what is my major concern, namely that Groundspeak is not welcoming hiking and similar activities as central activities for a geocaching event at the same level than say eating or playing card games and just leaves a workaround where they tolerate that activities are announced on the cache page that take place outside of the actual event.

 

While certainly some cachers will be willing to use that workaround, there will be others for whom this is not a feasible alternative as they won't feel welcome with what they do and will choose other ways to organize their events that however exclude a certain group of cachers who would have had access only via gc.com. Groundspeak is willingly taking this into account and that's what I regret.

 

Groundspeak does a lot to encourage weird events (which more seem like a joke to me than to something special of the type I always associated with a geocaching event) by introducing souvenirs like the Pi day souvenirs, but have no interest to encourage events where the an outdoor physical activity is the central element.

Edited by cezanne
Link to comment

If someone is "so overwhelmed" by the new guidelines that they choose to no longer host, they're not someone who I think really should be hosting an event anyway. It would be great if people would just see this as an opportunity to keep the events going in the way they like. It just means being a little more thoughtful and deliberate with the listing...which isn't all bad, is it??

 

An event is not only about writing up a listing. The atmosphere also plays a role.

Of course an event only reachable by boats will have a different atmosphere than an event at an urban ice skating area in the centre of a town under the new guidelines (I'm referring to several changes - not only the most recent one with respect to the event duration). The first will much less affected than the latter.

 

Somehow for Groundspeak the rules for logging events are apparently much more important than the atmosphere at events.

 

Cezanne

Link to comment

They want Official Geocaching.com Event Listing to be specifc types of activities. And, once again, moving activities are not the types of activities they want defining said Events.

But then you essentially agree with what is my major concern, namely that Groundspeak is not welcoming hiking and similar activities as central activities for a geocaching event

Yes. Those are not to be the primary activities for Geocaching.com Event Listings. They are moving events. That should be absolutely clear by now. They are optionally supplemental to the event listing.

 

at the same level than say eating or playing card games

Strawmen. Stop it. Events can be whatever your mind can imagine, however fun and exciting or sedentary and boring, as long as it abides by the Event Listing content rules, and your reviewer has reviewed it and judged it sufficient for publishing as an official Geocaching.com Event Listing.

 

and just leaves a workaround where they tolerate that activities are announced on the cache page that take place outside of the actual event.

Yes, because they cannot control what happens outside the Event.

Edited by thebruce0
Link to comment

If someone is "so overwhelmed" by the new guidelines that they choose to no longer host, they're not someone who I think really should be hosting an event anyway. It would be great if people would just see this as an opportunity to keep the events going in the way they like. It just means being a little more thoughtful and deliberate with the listing...which isn't all bad, is it??

 

An event is not only about writing up a listing. The atmosphere also plays a role.

Of course an event only reachable by boats will have a different atmosphere than an event at an urban ice skating area in the centre of a town under the new guidelines (I'm referring to several changes - not only the most recent one with respect to the event duration). The first will much less affected than the latter.

 

Somehow for Groundspeak the rules for logging events are apparently much more important than the atmosphere at events.

 

Cezanne

Wait, what? :blink: The...atmosphere?

 

It seems that the "atmosphere" of any event is more tightly wound around the organizers and those who attend. They all get to determine if the event "atmosphere"--if it is fun or a complete drag--not the guidelines.

 

The guidelines have nothing to do with "atmosphere"...that is, unless you're talking about requiring a gathering of a bunch of Eeyores together for an event. Then you can count me out! B)

Link to comment

I cannot cope with 100+ people who all expect to be welcomed, a few sentences here and there, a bit of smalltalk there and not the chance to talk more intensely with some people

when the topic becomes interesting.

 

This just has to be an excuse. Events more or less run themselves. There is no obligation to hold hands and do sing-a-longs at an event. Some of the biggest events in our area are hosted by the infamous King Boreas and he usually just sits at a table and waits for cachers to come to him to talk (no, not because he has an attitude, but because he's naturally shy and introverted).

 

I have the same fears so I choose to host events with a specific theme.. paddling events, rappelling events, etc.

Funny thing is, I remember a KB event (the one that became Mega, at Long Lake Regional Park) where Ian was actually one of a few folks who did say hello while I was munching on snacks and waiting for some side-event to start (film can toss, I think?). :laughing:

 

There were hikes around the park, games on the lawn, food on the grills, conversations in the parking lot...what a drag!

Link to comment

Strawmen. Stop it. Events can be whatever your mind can imagine, however fun and exciting or sedentary and boring, as long as it abides by the Event Listing content rules, and your reviewer has reviewed it and judged it sufficient for publishing as an official Geocaching.com Event Listing.

 

Not strawmen. As what you write above just repeats in different words what I said. Hiking, biking, skating etc apparently do not abide by the current event listing guidelines.

 

and just leaves a workaround where they tolerate that activities are announced on the cache page that take place outside of the actual event.

Yes, because they cannot control what happens outside the Event.

 

Exactly, but that's by far not enough for a lot of cachers to feel appreciated when they host hiking etc events. So those who decide not to host such events any longer are not inflexible, they just do not like to be just tolerated because Groundspeak cannot control what happens outside of the actual event.

Link to comment

The guidelines have nothing to do with "atmosphere"...

 

Of course they have.

 

An event which should be about hiking and where 90% of the participants only come to the parking lot during the initial 30 minutes period (= the actual event for Groundspeak) is a completely different atmosphere than an event where the event is the hike and the participants take part in the hike.

Link to comment

Strawmen. Stop it. Events can be whatever your mind can imagine, however fun and exciting or sedentary and boring, as long as it abides by the Event Listing content rules, and your reviewer has reviewed it and judged it sufficient for publishing as an official Geocaching.com Event Listing.

 

Not strawmen. As what you write above just repeats in different words what I said. Hiking, biking, skating etc apparently do not abide by the current event listing guidelines.

 

and just leaves a workaround where they tolerate that activities are announced on the cache page that take place outside of the actual event.

Yes, because they cannot control what happens outside the Event.

 

Exactly, but that's by far not enough for a lot of cachers to feel appreciated when they host hiking etc events. So those who decide not to host such events any longer are not inflexible, they just do not like to be just tolerated because Groundspeak cannot control what happens outside of the actual event.

Link to comment

The guidelines have nothing to do with "atmosphere"...

 

Of course they have.

 

An event which should be about hiking and where 90% of the participants only come to the parking lot during the initial 30 minutes period (= the actual event for Groundspeak) is a completely different atmosphere than an event where the event is the hike and the participants take part in the hike.

No, no...nononononononono

 

The event is the whole of whatever you put on your listing. The minimum time that your event and activities must take place at the set coordinates is 30 minutes. You're welcome to put on an event where you depart those coordinates for other parts of your event, so long as this minimum is met within the description of your event.

Link to comment

Funny thing is, I remember a KB event (the one that became Mega, at Long Lake Regional Park) where Ian was actually one of a few folks who did say hello while I was munching on snacks and waiting for some side-event to start (film can toss, I think?). :laughing:

 

There were hikes around the park, games on the lawn, food on the grills, conversations in the parking lot...what a drag!

Yeah it's fairly hard to think of a large event that didn't consist of multiple activitives that take place over the course of the event, some of which may even take you some distance away from the posted event coordinates. For these large events there is almost always an unspecified activity of showing up at some central locations that is available for the the entire duration of the event, or a least the majority of the duration.

 

It has always been the case is that in addtion to large events there have been small events. Many small event have been dedicated to just one activity. Sometimes that activity takes place in one location and last more than half an hour. Prior to the latest change there were events that took place in one location but may have only lasted a few minutes. Prior to a previous change were events that had a starting location and time, but may have left this location a few minutes after the start time.

 

The new guideline ban (I don't underastand some people's instance that nothing has been banned) events that last less than half an hour and events that move from the posted coordinates without lingering half an hour. Groundspeak might have a good rationale for banning these events. But, in spite of attempts by lackeys and reviewers in the other thread and by individuals who are posting in this thread, I have not heard a rationale that convinces me that these events really needed to be banned.

 

There are reasonable concerns that activities that people enjoy may not get listed as events since you now must include other activities in order to comply with the guidelines. There is a also a feeling that the guidelines show favoritism to certain activities because these activities meet the guidlines without being combined with other activities. It seems reasonable to point out that you can drink beer or eat pizza and make these activities an event, but you can't make a hike an event without adding an activity to stand around in one place for half an hour.

Link to comment
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
Followers 5
×
×
  • Create New...