Hiking Events

[+NeverSummer]

And if it comes to it that a former event host wants to provide an opportunity to simply socialize, they should keep the event going. If they only care to "get what they want" or "only allow people to log who have participated in the way I want"...well, then you're headed for the bench--have fun hosting your events off of Geocaching.com!

 

That's the problem: Those hosts not just want to provide an arbitrary opportunity for socializing, but one they themselves and their target audiences enjoy.

Which we've proven is still possible!

 

That's not an issue of logging as the alternative is to organize the events outside of gc.com where there are no logs.

 

Why should someone set up a meet and greet for say 150 persons and also need to take care to choose an appropriate location when the idea is to provide an opportunity for socializing for those 50 who come along on a hike?

Spaghetti Monster forbid that one actually considers those 150 and chooses an appropriate venue to host an opportunity for geocachers to socialize!

 

Having to deal with so large groups puts a lot of constraints on possible locations that are home-made. There a way enough meet and greets for those who want to attend such events.

This might be different in your place and of course does not apply to every place.

Well, there seems to be a lack of suitable spaces to host a group of people without permits, payments, or whatever else you have in your region or community. I understand that.

 

This is where I've seen a group of geocachers become a bit of an advocacy group--find a way to work with land managers to host events or geocaching activities. Advocacy for the game is helpful, and hosting a CITO or two for a park or host site oftentimes tips the scales in favor of the requesting geocacher-host (or hosting group, club, or organization).

 

How much, "Disperse, or we will fire on you!" kind of police or land manager intervention do you get at event sites? Is there really no suitable location for 150 people to get together? If not 150, how can 50 do it in your area? Do trailheads not have enough space to gather people together for 30 minutes? Are there not parking lots? Grassy knolls near the beginning of the trail? A space up the trail suitable to stop over with people?

 

It's really not the fault of Groundspeak if your city, country, or region have limited open space, or limited ability to gather a group without permitting. What one needs to do in your case is advocate, innovate, and reset your expectations in light of the clarified guidelines.

[+NeverSummer]

This past weekend, at a PI Day event, I sat down with one of the lackeys* and talked about this subject (it's nice to know so many of them and be close enough to talk face to face at times). It was stated that a hike/bike ride/moving activity CAN be part of/focus of the event. It is NOT required that someone be at the posted co-ords for the duration, but if not the CO must allow logs of people who arrived there and found nobody around (i.e.. if it's a four hour hike and someone arrives at the trailhead (posted co-ords) three hours in, they can still log the event - the event happens at the listed co-ords). If the CO isn't willing to allow such logs, they need to shorten the time to cover when they will be at the listed co-ords, which must be at least 30 minutes.

 

So hiking events can still occur as they have in the past, CO's will have to allow 'car seat' logging (as opposed to 'arm chair' logging), or adjust their timeframe. So the Ride Bike series that I mentioned before can occur as in the past, with maybe a minor change to the wording on the page. And the nice hikes HikingSeal (OP) puts on can occur.

 

So with this clarification of the guidelines, I'm satisfied and remove my objection - and myself from this discussion.

 

*I won't state a name, as I don't have permission to quote them directly.

 

The last thing I want to do is wade into this...meaty thread, but I wanted to clarify the information that the Jester posted, as I am the Lackey to whom he is referring.

 

The hike/bike ride/moving activity can be part of/focus of the event, but there MUST be at least 30 minutes during which the event is scheduled to be at the posted coordinates. This provides people of all abilities to gather to socialize - the primary focus of all events listed on Geocaching.com - and feel welcome. The event host is expected to be present during that time, but the attendees are not required to stay for the entirety, nor are they required to participate in the secondary activity in order to log a find.

Thanks for stopping in to say this, Moun10Bike. This all sounds very much in line with what Appeals has stated as well; there is no "conflict" from Groundspeak on the subject.

 

Cheers.

[+cheech gang]

The last thing I want to do is wade into this...meaty thread, but I wanted to clarify the information that the Jester posted, as I am the Lackey to whom he is referring.

 

The hike/bike ride/moving activity can be part of/focus of the event, but there MUST be at least 30 minutes during which the event is scheduled to be at the posted coordinates. This provides people of all abilities to gather to socialize - the primary focus of all events listed on Geocaching.com - and feel welcome. The event host is expected to be present during that time, but the attendees are not required to stay for the entirety, nor are they required to participate in the secondary activity in order to log a find.

 

Thank you for weighing in. This is the way I understood it all along.

 

Never fear, you did not wade into a "meaty" thread. More akin to tofu or rice cakes.

[+NeverSummer]

 

The hike/bike ride/moving activity can be part of/focus of the event, but there MUST be at least 30 minutes during which the event is scheduled to be at the posted coordinates. This provides people of all abilities to gather to socialize - the primary focus of all events listed on Geocaching.com - and feel welcome. The event host is expected to be present during that time, but the attendees are not required to stay for the entirety, nor are they required to participate in the secondary activity in order to log a find.

 

Thanks for letting us know that you have been the lackey The Jester referred to.

 

The above raises two questions

 

(1) If an event has to allow people of all abilities to gather, all events would need to take place at handicapped accessible places. So no events on a lake, mountain summit, no events in not wheelchair accessible restaurant etc. Do you really mean this in that way?

Good question, but I'll wager that this would be best dealt with on a case-by-case Event Cache submission, with accurate and honest terrain ratings. The Reviewer can and will be more familiar with the situation and can decide if it meets the guidelines. If the listing owner does not agree with a denial of publication, they can appeal to Groundspeak for clarification.

 

(2) Can the event move away from the posted coordinates after the period of 30 minutes? So can the meet and greet take part from 9:00 to 9:30, but 12:00 being given as end time of the event?

 

The answer from appeals appears to imply that the whole event has to take place at the posted coordinates or at least someone has to be present there.

It appeared that a hike cannot be part of an event on gc.com, but just be mentioned in the listing.

Both the examples we users have provided, and the feedback from Reviewer and Appeals have stated clearly that an event will need to clearly list when the event will be (start time+end time) at the listed coordinates.

 

One may list the additional activities, provide additional waypoints, and provide timing context for the additional activities within the description, or within an Announcement log. This would include the "return to trailhead, end of hike" timing you refer to.

 

Just be sure the listing states clearly enough for the Reviewer (and appeals) to see that there will be 30 minutes, minimum, at the listed coordinates--and that attending the "activity" is not a requirement for logging "Attended".

[cezanne]

 

The hike/bike ride/moving activity can be part of/focus of the event, but there MUST be at least 30 minutes during which the event is scheduled to be at the posted coordinates. This provides people of all abilities to gather to socialize - the primary focus of all events listed on Geocaching.com - and feel welcome. The event host is expected to be present during that time, but the attendees are not required to stay for the entirety, nor are they required to participate in the secondary activity in order to log a find.

 

Thanks for letting us know that you have been the lackey The Jester referred to.

 

The above raises two questions

 

(1) If an event has to allow people of all abilities to gather, all events would need to take place at handicapped accessible places. So no events on a lake, mountain summit, no events in not wheelchair accessible restaurant etc. Do you really mean this in that way?

Good question, but I'll wager that this would be best dealt with on a case-by-case Event Cache submission, with accurate and honest terrain ratings. The Reviewer can and will be more familiar with the situation and can decide if it meets the guidelines. If the listing owner does not agree with a denial of publication, they can appeal to Groundspeak for clarification.

 

Actually, I was interested into Mountain10Bike's answer in this thread. As it comes to an actual submission you are probably right.

The same remarks holds true with respect to my question (2).

[+NeverSummer]

Actually, I was interested into Mountain10Bike's answer in this thread. As it comes to an actual submission you are probably right.

The same remarks holds true with respect to my question (2).

Appeals already provided you an answer to your...ahem...#2.

 

 

 

Edited March 17, 2015 by NeverSummer

[Keystone]

However I think the fact that we needed to rely on getting an answer from appeals and that it took them quite a while and the fact that different people from Groundspeak provide different answers is an indication that the formulation of the guidelines is less clear than it could/should be.

I need to take issue with these statements. NeverSummer's "test case" event was submitted on March 11th to his local reviewer. Appeals was consulted. NeverSummer pasted the responses into this thread on March 13th, two days later.

 

Likewise, Moun10Bike's recent post clarified that Geocaching HQ is very much on the same page. Moun10Bike is not part of the Appeals team, but I can assure you that all of the Appeals team would give the same answer that Cathy gave to NeverSummer.

 

It is fine to express an opinion that the guidelines are less clear than you think they should be. Facts, however, should not be twisted in support of that opinion.

Edited March 17, 2015 by Keystone

[cezanne]

However I think the fact that we needed to rely on getting an answer from appeals and that it took them quite a while and the fact that different people from Groundspeak provide different answers is an indication that the formulation of the guidelines is less clear than it could/should be.

I need to take issue with these statements. NeverSummer's "test case" event was submitted on March 11th to his local reviewer. Appeals was consulted. NeverSummer pasted the responses into this thread on March 13th, two days later.

 

Actually I was referring to the duration between point in time when the question has been asked and the reply and not the length of the interval between when NeverSummer submitted an event listing and the reply by the appeals team. Until recently I had not even realized that NeverSummer had submitted an event. I just thought that he asked a question. I would prefer if one can ask questions about the guidelines without having to submit caches, but apparently Groundspeak prefers it in another way and that's of course their right.

 

 

 

Likewise, Moun10Bike's recent post clarified that Geocaching HQ is very much on the same page. Moun10Bike is not part of the Appeals team, but I can assure you that all of the Appeals team would give the same answer that Cathy gave to NeverSummer.

 

I'm sorry. Then I'm apparently too stupid and apologize for it. To me the answers of the appeal team and Mountain10Bike's statement contradict each other in certain aspects. I asked my questions to understand how the contradiction could be resolved and to find out what I might have misunderstood and definitely not to twist facts.

Edited March 17, 2015 by cezanne

[cezanne]

Actually, I was interested into Mountain10Bike's answer in this thread. As it comes to an actual submission you are probably right.

The same remarks holds true with respect to my question (2).

Appeals already provided you an answer to your...ahem...#2.

 

 

I try to understand what seems a contradiction between Mountain10Bike's answer and the appeals team's answer.

But maybe you are more clever than I'm and can explain me why Keystone claims that the answers essentially say the same.

[+NeverSummer]

Actually, I was interested into Mountain10Bike's answer in this thread. As it comes to an actual submission you are probably right.

The same remarks holds true with respect to my question (2).

Appeals already provided you an answer to your...ahem...#2.

 

 

I try to understand what seems a contradiction between Mountain10Bike's answer and the appeals team's answer.

But maybe you are more clever than I'm and can explain me why Keystone claims that the answers essentially say the same.

I updated my above reference to include this link: http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=330055&view=findpost&p=5482614

[+coachstahly]

 

In my country (far larger than my area) for the events I have in mind, yes. It already happened.

 

Can you provide a link to just such an event that follows the new guidelines, has a hike that follows (or some other active activity), and the attended logs show that most people left before the hike (or whatever activity it was)? I can't do that for events in my area because none exist that have been done that way by attendees. Can anyone else provide links that show most attendees leaving before the active event takes place?

 

I do believe however that it depends on the region and also how urban the area is and how far the event is from densely populated areas with many competitive cachers.

 

An event, is an event, is an event, regardless of where it takes place. The only difference will be the audience that it could possibly reach. Urban areas obviously will have a higher concentration of cachers but that does NOT equate to more cachers interested in an event solely for the smiley. We have our fair share of competitive cachers over here too, but they don't all go to events just to log the smiley. One of the top 10-15 (changes from week to week) finders in the world goes to events to socialize and do whatever happens after the event officially ends, whether it's to kayak, hike, or eat pizza. Yes, I'm sure she (I know her personally and have cached with her two times and attended events with her at least twice) cares about the smiley, but that's not the ONLY thing on her mind. If it were, she would only stay long enough to be seen and then head out to cache. She doesn't do that.

Edited March 17, 2015 by coachstahly

[+coachstahly]

 

Never fear, you did not wade into a "meaty" thread. More akin to tofu or rice cakes.

[cezanne]

Can you provide a link to just such an event that follows the new guidelines, has a hike that follows (or some other active activity), and the attended logs show that most people left before the hike (or whatever activity it was)?

 

If you mean by new guidelines the most recent ones, then I can only tell you that at the ice skating event I attended considerably less than 50% of the participants were on the ice and considerably less than in the years before. In that case it was not a moving event and so it was not about leaving before the activity, but just spending all the time outside of the ice area which is not the idea of a skating event and the more people are outside the more it attracts additional people to stay outside too. In this manner such an event gets a completely different flavour and is not be distinguished any longer from most 0815 events.

 

As hiking events are concerned, it is not the best season right now and most event hosts who host hiking events since the guidelines were made stricter shift them to the summit and do not hold them at the starting point of the hike as it is quite clear from related experiences what would happen otherwise.

[Keystone]

 

Never fear, you did not wade into a "meaty" thread. More akin to tofu or rice cakes.

It makes one wish there was a thread about sandwich meats or hot dogs.

[+coachstahly]

 

So, sort of like the paddle events that I host and described waaaaaaay back on pages x, y & z (heck, I ain't wading through all 15 pages to find them).

 

I jumped in on page 8 (I think) and your comments were before that. I got rid of half the pages for you!

[+coachstahly]

 

As hiking events are concerned, it is not the best season right now and most event hosts who host hiking events since the guidelines were made stricter shift them to the summit and do not hold them at the starting point of the hike as it is quite clear from related experiences what would happen otherwise.

 

Two points.

 

One - so there's nothing available to show the dire consequences of having a meet and greet before the hike where most cachers are there for the smiley instead of the hike. Perhaps we can revisit this when the weather warms up, but as of right now, there's nothing to back up your claims.

 

Two - Event hosts have moved the cache events to the summit of a hike instead of at the trailhead, exactly like what almost all of us have suggested, at some point, they do in order to both get a higher T rating AND attract only those interested in the hike. So they've adapted to the new guidelines. That's great news!

Edited March 17, 2015 by coachstahly

[cezanne]

One - so there's nothing available to show the dire consequences of having a meet and greet before the hike where most cachers are there for the smiley instead of the hike. Perhaps we can revisit this when the weather warms up, but as of right now, there's nothing to back up your claims.

 

There are enough indications from related experiences that the same that happened for the ice skating will happen for the hike too when it is not shifted and when it takes place in an urban area with many cachers.

 

Two - Event hosts have moved the cache events to the summit of a hike instead of at the trailhead, exactly like what almost all of us have suggested, at some point, they do in order to both get a higher T rating AND attract only those interested in the hike. So they've adapted to the new guidelines. That's great news!

 

No, it isn't for cachers like myself and I explained why. Also I never could host such an event while I could host an event starting at the trailhead and for example ending at the summit.

I would also feel very uncomfortable as attendant.

[+NeverSummer]

However I think the fact that we needed to rely on getting an answer from appeals and that it took them quite a while and the fact that different people from Groundspeak provide different answers is an indication that the formulation of the guidelines is less clear than it could/should be.

I need to take issue with these statements. NeverSummer's "test case" event was submitted on March 11th to his local reviewer. Appeals was consulted. NeverSummer pasted the responses into this thread on March 13th, two days later.

 

Actually I was referring to the duration between point in time when the question has been asked and the reply and not the length of the interval between when NeverSummer submitted an event listing and the reply by the appeals team. Until recently I had not even realized that NeverSummer had submitted an event. I just thought that he asked a question. I would prefer if one can ask questions about the guidelines without having to submit caches, but apparently Groundspeak prefers it in another way and that's of course their right.

And I provided context, cezanne:

I submitted my question to Appeals, as stated in this thread, via direct email on the email form.

 

After a delay of more than 2-3 days, I submitted again the same way.

 

Then, after reading more in the "Appeals" section of the Help Center, I realized that the delay might be because of my lack of actual cache to appeal.

 

After submitting my event, the Reviewer took under 24 hours to reply that he was looking into it. I then submitted a tandem appeal to his inquiry to Groundspeak. Both his inquiry and my appeal came to the same conclusion, which is aligned clearly with what Moun10Bike has now stated to TheJester, and here in the forums.

 

Case closed on that one...

Edited March 17, 2015 by NeverSummer

[+NeverSummer]

One - so there's nothing available to show the dire consequences of having a meet and greet before the hike where most cachers are there for the smiley instead of the hike. Perhaps we can revisit this when the weather warms up, but as of right now, there's nothing to back up your claims.

 

There are enough indications from related experiences that the same that happened for the ice skating will happen for the hike too when it is not shifted and when it takes place in an urban area with many cachers.

 

Are you sure that's the causation? Did you pass along a survey to find out why people were in smaller numbers, or chose not to attend?

 

You're grasping at straws! They could have stopped coming because they don't like skating. Maybe there was a TV show people didn't want to miss. Maybe the weather was poor. Maybe they've tired of the "socialization" that happens at those events , and long for something more meaningful and sedentary. Maybe they don't want to pay a fee, and are making more frugal choices with how they spend their money. On, and on and on and on...

 

You see? You have NO idea why numbers are in decline, and stating the conversations with a low N of attendees will not give reliable results. Science!

[cezanne]

And I provided context, cezanne:

I submitted my question to Appeals, as stated in this thread, via direct email on the email form.

 

After a delay of more than 2-3 days, I submitted again the same way.

 

Then, after reading more in the "Appeals" section of the Help Center, I realized that the delay might be because of my lack of actual cache to appeal.

 

Yes, I understand that now, but I have not realized the intermediary steps initially.

 

Both his inquiry and my appeal came to the same conclusion, which is aligned clearly with what Moun10Bike has now stated to TheJester, and here in the forums.

 

I'm sorry in my understanding what Moun10Bike wrote contradicts the former and it does not help if you refer to your answer from appeals and it does not help if 100 people state that they think that the statements are in line. I will still not understand where the source for my different understanding lies.

[cezanne]

One - so there's nothing available to show the dire consequences of having a meet and greet before the hike where most cachers are there for the smiley instead of the hike. Perhaps we can revisit this when the weather warms up, but as of right now, there's nothing to back up your claims.

 

There are enough indications from related experiences that the same that happened for the ice skating will happen for the hike too when it is not shifted and when it takes place in an urban area with many cachers.

 

Are you sure that's the causation? Did you pass along a survey to find out why people were in smaller numbers, or chose not to attend?

 

Yes, it's a causation in that case. There were not fewer people, only fewer that took part in the skating part and more which stood outside.

Of course several things come together and for some it also makes a difference how an event is rated. For a high rating they feel more effort is appropriate than for a 1/1 (which is somehow a rating normal physical caches have in our area if they are lame).

 

It makes a huge difference whether an event invites for a skating activity or for a meet and greet in front of the skating area with the explicit mention that paying an entrance fee is not

required for the event (the reviewer insisted on this to be mentioned along with the explicit mention that no skating is required). It did not suffice to rely on the rules that say that activities cannot be enforced anyhow.

 

 

A much greater number of people who might have had moral issues with logging an attended for the old format without skating, don't have those any longer.

For an ice skating event many might feel that is worth to invest additional money to rent skates or time to try to borrow skates from some friends, for a meet and greet the situation changes.

Edited March 17, 2015 by cezanne

[+NeverSummer]

 

Both his inquiry and my appeal came to the same conclusion, which is aligned clearly with what Moun10Bike has now stated to TheJester, and here in the forums.

 

I'm sorry in my understanding what Moun10Bike wrote contradicts the former and it does not help if you refer to your answer from appeals and it does not help if 100 people state that they think that the statements are in line. I will still not understand where the source for my different understanding lies.

Care to share how you find them contradictory? They're nearly a mirror image of each other.

[+NeverSummer]

One - so there's nothing available to show the dire consequences of having a meet and greet before the hike where most cachers are there for the smiley instead of the hike. Perhaps we can revisit this when the weather warms up, but as of right now, there's nothing to back up your claims.

 

There are enough indications from related experiences that the same that happened for the ice skating will happen for the hike too when it is not shifted and when it takes place in an urban area with many cachers.

 

Are you sure that's the causation? Did you pass along a survey to find out why people were in smaller numbers, or chose not to attend?

 

Yes, it's a causation in that case. There were not fewer people, only fewer that took part in the skating part and more which stood outside.

Of course several things come together and for some it also makes a difference how an event is rated. For a high rating they feel more effort is appropriate than for a 1/1 (which is somehow a rating normal physical caches have in our area if they are lame).

 

It makes a huge difference whether an event invites for a skating activity or for a meet and greet in front of the skating area with the explicit mention that paying an entrance fee is not

required for the event (the reviewer insisted on this to be mentioned along with the explicit mention that no skating is required). It did not suffice to rely on the rules that say that activities cannot be enforced anyhow.

 

 

A much greater number of people who might have had moral issues with logging an attended for the old format without skating, don't have those any longer.

For an ice skating event many might feel that is worth to invest additional money to rent skates or time to try to borrow skates from some friends, for a meet and greet the situation changes.

Oh, I see. Fewer people took part in the non-required activity, but just as many showed up. How is this a problem, except for those who wish to mandate you participate in a certain way?

 

You think that is because people in your region feel that they must take part to a certain "level" to gain that "Attended" smiley. If there is a 1/3 (D/T) skating event, you claim more people would skate out of obligation for the ratings provided.

 

Well, that ship has sailed. They can't be required to skate (or hike), so they chose to stand and chat instead. Sounds like a great way to socialize, and if people liked the idea of skating, they could skate.

 

Not unlike going to a building which happens to serve pizza, and choosing not to eat any pizza. (Or even choosing not to go to a building at all if there is smoking allowed, and you do not like being around cigarette smoke...)

[+niraD]

That's what the docent did by canceling the Geocaching.com Event Cache™.

But the docent did not cancel the Geocaching.com Event Cache™. The docent submitted a listing, and Groundspeak (via the volunteer reviewer) declined to publish it.

 

Sometimes, the host's goal is to have a Geocaching.com Event Cache™. In that case, the host is more likely to make whatever compromises Groundspeak requires (as has been discussed ad nauseam in this thread). Other times, the host's goal is to have a specific type of event. In that case, the host is less likely to make such compromises.

 

Locally, I've seen very similar geocaching events go both ways. One host made the compromises required to get the event listed as a Geocaching.com Event Cache™. The other didn't. That doesn't make one right and the other wrong. It just means they had different priorities.

[+coachstahly]

 

There are enough indications from related experiences that the same that happened for the ice skating will happen for the hike too when it is not shifted and when it takes place in an urban area with many cachers.

 

Just because it happens there does NOT immediately mean that it will happen at a different kind of event with a different activity (after the official event). That's bad science and bad logic. That's like saying if less people go this restaurant to eat then less people will go to that coffeehouse to drink coffee. You are more than welcome to hypothesize what you think will happen, but there's currently no evidence to support your hypothesis, only conjecture about unrelated events and their possible effect on a hiking event.

 

No, it isn't for cachers like myself and I explained why.

 

You certainly have explained why it's not for you, but you also have stated that event hosts won't host that type of event because it's not about the hike and it's stationary so it's therefore better done outside of gc.com. You just provided a statement that contradicts one of your claims. They are hosting those types of events by using the workaround suggested many times on this thread. Unless I'm mistaken, you MUST hike to get to the summit, unless you're rich enough to own a helicopter or it's a ski slope and there's a lift to take you to the summit. So whether cachers want to or not, they're required to hike to attend the event at the summit.

 

Also I never could host such an event while I could host an event starting at the trailhead and for example ending at the summit.

 

Irrelevant as you've already mentioned that you would never host an event. OTHER people couldn't host an event that had a duration of time that allowed for a hike from the trailhead to the summit, but they have opted to host it at the summit, which allows you to plan, on the cache page with notes or on your own via emails (or heaven forbid, if the host of the event says that they'll be meeting three hours before the event at a trailhead, designated by a waypoint), to hike up together with a group to attend the event at the summit. You get the hike, you get the people you want to socialize with, you avoid all those who are there solely to socialize only, and you get the appropriate T rating for the event on top of the summit.

 

I would also feel very uncomfortable as attendant.

Why? Because you object to a stationary event on top of a summit after a great hike with fellow cachers who share the same interest?

Edited March 18, 2015 by coachstahly

[+BBWolf+3Pigs]

One - so there's nothing available to show the dire consequences of having a meet and greet before the hike where most cachers are there for the smiley instead of the hike. Perhaps we can revisit this when the weather warms up, but as of right now, there's nothing to back up your claims.

 

There are enough indications from related experiences that the same that happened for the ice skating will happen for the hike too when it is not shifted and when it takes place in an urban area with many cachers.

 

Are you sure that's the causation? Did you pass along a survey to find out why people were in smaller numbers, or chose not to attend?

 

Yes, it's a causation in that case. There were not fewer people, only fewer that took part in the skating part and more which stood outside.

Of course several things come together and for some it also makes a difference how an event is rated. For a high rating they feel more effort is appropriate than for a 1/1 (which is somehow a rating normal physical caches have in our area if they are lame).

 

Could it be that fewer people wanted to pay to ice skate? Or fewer people who knew how to skate?

 

Without asking everyone, you cannot state with certainty why fewer people went inside (or conversely more people stayed outside).

[+BBWolf+3Pigs]

One - so there's nothing available to show the dire consequences of having a meet and greet before the hike where most cachers are there for the smiley instead of the hike. Perhaps we can revisit this when the weather warms up, but as of right now, there's nothing to back up your claims.

 

There are enough indications from related experiences that the same that happened for the ice skating will happen for the hike too when it is not shifted and when it takes place in an urban area with many cachers.

 

Two - Event hosts have moved the cache events to the summit of a hike instead of at the trailhead, exactly like what almost all of us have suggested, at some point, they do in order to both get a higher T rating AND attract only those interested in the hike. So they've adapted to the new guidelines. That's great news!

 

No, it isn't for cachers like myself and I explained why. Also I never could host such an event while I could host an event starting at the trailhead and for example ending at the summit.

I would also feel very uncomfortable as attendant.

 

care to explain why you could host one but not the other? Both start at point A and end at Point B.

[+coachstahly]

That's what the docent did by canceling the Geocaching.com Event Cache™.

But the docent did not cancel the Geocaching.com Event Cache™. The docent submitted a listing, and Groundspeak (via the volunteer reviewer) declined to publish it.

 

Sometimes, the host's goal is to have a Geocaching.com Event Cache™. In that case, the host is more likely to make whatever compromises Groundspeak requires (as has been discussed ad nauseam in this thread). Other times, the host's goal is to have a specific type of event. In that case, the host is less likely to make such compromises.

 

Locally, I've seen very similar geocaching events go both ways. One host made the compromises required to get the event listed as a Geocaching.com Event Cache™. The other didn't. That doesn't make one right and the other wrong. It just means they had different priorities.

 

Ok. It wasn't cancelled because it was never active and published, but the initial intent was to get it published and the docent didn't do what was required by Groundspeak to get the Geocaching.com Event Cache™ published. It still purposely limited the audience that might have been able to contribute time or money to a worthy preserve because they were exposed to the facility by a Geocaching.com Event Cache™.

 

I'm not saying that either one is right or wrong. There's validity in both situations. I am saying that in this case, limiting the audience (for whatever reason, event related or not) limits the impact that the preserve might have gotten in return. Why would one willingly shrink the potential donor and volunteer pool?

[knowschad]

Here is a water event (kayak, canoe, swimming, rafting, tubing, wind surfing) event by bflentje, who posts here occasionally. D/T 2.5/5

 

http://coord.info/GC5MC1D

 

Location: Lake Calhoun, Minneapolis, MN, N 44° 56.736 W 093° 18.675

 

Date: Saturday June 13th, 2015

 

Time: NOON to no later than 1pm

 

Requirements: You MUST get to the posted coordinates of the event in order to properly attend this event. Attendance from shore will NOT be allowed unless you are the designated photographer, you are legitimately wheelchair bound or physically handicapped, or if there is a rain-out [WEATHER CONTINGENCY PLAN IN THE WORKS]. Event hosts can no longer require you to sign an event log but you must be in attendance in order to log this event as Attended.

 

[+coachstahly]

Too bad I'm heading to Orlando the next day or I'd consider driving up for that one!

[+NeverSummer]

Here is a water event (kayak, canoe, swimming, rafting, tubing, wind surfing) event by bflentje, who posts here occasionally. D/T 2.5/5

 

http://coord.info/GC5MC1D

 

Pretty dern good for an introvert.

[cezanne]

Here is a water event (kayak, canoe, swimming, rafting, tubing, wind surfing) event by bflentje, who posts here occasionally. D/T 2.5/5

 

I'm not sure what this example should show. Water events are privileged anyway in the sense that the water setting allows for a lot of things that do not work in other settings like a hike in a semiurban area or in a flat area.

 

Time: NOON to no later than 1pm

 

Maybe it's an language issue. I would understand this in a way that it were also fulfilled if for whatever reasons the event is ended at 12:10.

 

Requirements: You MUST get to the posted coordinates of the event in order to properly attend this event. Attendance from shore will NOT be allowed unless you are the designated photographer, you are legitimately wheelchair bound or physically handicapped, or if there is a rain-out [WEATHER CONTINGENCY PLAN IN THE WORKS]. Event hosts can no longer require you to sign an event log but you must be in attendance in order to log this event as Attended.

 

Is it because of this part that you posted the example?

 

I guess the event host offered exceptions for these groups out of his own initiative. If so, there is nothing to argue. If not, then I'd say that groups are excluded that have more reasons than being the designated photographer (but it might again be that I do not understand the term and it is a local meaning with respect to that event and refers to exactly one person chosen by the event host).

 

Would the event have been published also if say one had to pay 4 or 5 Dollar entrance fee to the lake in Summer time (there are lots of lakes used for swimming and other water sports where fees have to be paid here)?

 

Might it be also a regional thing that maybe in an area where almost noone owns a boat a reviewer might insist on a logging option from the shore? (I'm not requiring one - it's a real question.)

 

And another question: Suppose the event host would have included also an optional picnic in the submitted event listing and said something like "After the water trip, feel free to join us starting from 1 pm for a picnic at .....". Would the reviewer then have asked to reverse the event setting and turn the picnic into the real event and leave the water trip as optional one?

Edited March 18, 2015 by cezanne

[cezanne]

There's validity in both situations. I am saying that in this case, limiting the audience (for whatever reason, event related or not) limits the impact that the preserve might have gotten in return. Why would one willingly shrink the potential donor and volunteer pool?

 

In the ice skating example there is no such donor and volunteer pool behind, and you could as well apply the same reasoning. Having a smaller audience there is even of advantage. You did not need 150-200 participants.

[cezanne]

No, it isn't for cachers like myself and I explained why. Also I never could host such an event while I could host an event starting at the trailhead and for example ending at the summit.

I would also feel very uncomfortable as attendant.

 

care to explain why you could host one but not the other? Both start at point A and end at Point B.

 

How can they both start at A and end at B if events according to the guidelines start and end at the same point without moving away?

What I meant is that even under the old guidelines (or how they have been used in my country) I would not have felt comfortable with hosting a hiking event where the event hike includes the descent. If I'm not the host, I would not matter if I take 1 hour longer and stay very much behind. Also as a normal participant, I would have ample of choice to socialize during hiking with others on the way up and could cope with not being part of the group on the descent. When having been part of the hike for a longer time, it feels much better to me.

 

If the event starts at the summit, it is indeed easier to find a subgroup to join on the descent in particular for newer cachers and non locals. But what would be helpful for me is the group hike on the way up. Setting up an organized hike where the event takes place at the summit at some given time is problematic when one tries to estimate how long a quite heterogenous group might need to reach the target.

In the old setup one would have arrived at the summit whenever possible and there was no requirement to be there within a certain prespecified time windows. Having the official event at the start does not have the problem I addressed, but it has a number of other drawbacks.

[+BBWolf+3Pigs]

 

Requirements: You MUST get to the posted coordinates of the event in order to properly attend this event. Attendance from shore will NOT be allowed unless you are the designated photographer, you are legitimately wheelchair bound or physically handicapped, or if there is a rain-out [WEATHER CONTINGENCY PLAN IN THE WORKS]. Event hosts can no longer require you to sign an event log but you must be in attendance in order to log this event as Attended.

 

I hope there is never a requirement to make all events accessible to any- and everyone. They might as well disallow any cache that isn't in a lamp post skirt in a parking lot.

[+BBWolf+3Pigs]

Setting up an organized hike where the event takes place at the summit at some given time is problematic when one tries to estimate how long a quite heterogenous group might need to reach the target.

 

You keep saying that, and we keep showing you ways to alleviate any issues. "Official Event" at summit from 1200-1300. In the listing you state "we're going to leave parking at 1000. Hike is about 2 hours long." So, most people will meet at 1000 and walk up. Some slower, some faster. Event starts at 1200. If you are not sure how long the hike is for you, do a dry-run. or give yourself extra time. If you are there early, great, enjoy the view. If you (as the host) are there a little late, don't worry about people who may have logged the "Attended" if they arrived and left before you did. If they didn't want to stick around and socialize, that's their problem. And at 1300, or 1330 or whenever you feel like leaving, you leave. If it's a great group of people along for the adventure, you'll have a pretty good sized group to socialize with on the descent. And don't worry if people walk faster or slower than you on the way up or down. You'll eventually be walking alongside everyone at some point.

 

My all-time greatest caching experience was this cache. About 12 of us met up and did the hike. What was great was I got a chance to chat with everyone along the way. We each took our time, and rested when we felt like it. Which meant that at some point I was walking next to someone else in the group over the 6+ hours. This is what will happen with an event as I've described (and it will happen - that's how my kayak events have turned out).

 

Here's a picture of that hike:

 

[edit to add picture then correct formatting]

Edited March 18, 2015 by BBWolf+3Pigs

[cezanne]

 

You keep saying that, and we keep showing you ways to alleviate any issues. "Official Event" at summit from 1200-1300. In the listing you state "we're going to leave parking at 1000. Hike is about 2 hours long." So, most people will meet at 1000 and walk up. Some slower, some faster. Event starts at 1200. If you are not sure how long the hike is for you, do a dry-run. or give yourself extra time. If you are there early, great, enjoy the view. If you (as the host) are there a little late, don't worry about people who may have logged the "Attended" if they arrived and left before you did. If they didn't want to stick around and socialize, that's their problem. And at 1300, or 1330 or whenever you feel like leaving, you leave.

 

I guess I'm a too formal person to feel comfortable with that. being late as a host even by 1 minute without a very serious reason does not feel appropriate to me but on the other hand I do not want to spend 1 hour in addition at the target area in the worst case just to be sure not to be late.

 

I also think that it's my formalism that makes me have a big issue with start and end times for the event that do not match with the start and end times of what I consider as event.

That apparently is not an issue to most people here while it is a serious one for me.

 

If it's a great group of people along for the adventure, you'll have a pretty good sized group to socialize with on the descent. And don't worry if people walk faster or slower than you on the way up or down. You'll eventually be walking alongside everyone at some point.

 

My all-time greatest caching experience was this cache. About 12 of us met up and did the hike. What was great was I got a chance to chat with everyone along the way. We each took our time, and rested when we felt like it. Which meant that at some point I was walking next to someone else in the group over the 6+ hours. This is what will happen with an event as I've described (and it will happen - that's how my kayak events have turned out).

 

I believe you that with groups of the size you describe that works pretty well and if I look at the photo, it does not surprise me that you did not end up with a large group. However my area looks differently.

 

By the way the event indeed looks great, but much above my abilities. When seeing only the picture I first thought that it was kind of joke about me and somehow suggested that the event host got stuck in despair.

[+coachstahly]

 

Maybe it's an language issue. I would understand this in a way that it were also fulfilled if for whatever reasons the event is ended at 12:10.

 

It can't end earlier than 1 PM, but if you're an attendee, it ends whenever you leave the posted coordinates. If you know anything about kayaks or canoes and unloading and loading, it's NEVER a ten minute time from arrival to departure. An event attendee, as long as they were out on the water at 1200 could be done with the event at 1210, but the host will stay until NO LATER than 1300, meaning the host will be there until that time but not past it. 1200-1300 but NOT later than 1300 and it can't end earlier than that. You could paddle out to the coordinates, say a quick thanks to the host and then paddle back to get out of the water and you'd be able to log the event as attended. That being said, those of us who own boats (canoes/kayaks/motorboats) aren't going to go to all that work for that brief period of time we spend on the water. We'll make sure we have some time cleared to enjoy our time on the water. You could also swim unless swimming isn't allowed there.

 

Would the event have been published also if say one had to pay 4 or 5 Dollar entrance fee to the lake in Summer time (there are lots of lakes used for swimming and other water sports where fees have to be paid here)?

In my area, yes, and I would assume the same for MN. In my state, if it's a state owned water facility, you also have to have the appropriate watercraft registration sticker, which costs another 5$.

 

And another question: Suppose the event host would have included also an optional picnic in the submitted event listing and said something like "After the water trip, feel free to join us starting from 1 pm for a picnic at .....". Would the reviewer then have asked to reverse the event setting and turn the picnic into the real event and leave the water trip as optional one?

No, because the picnic is the optional event in this case. The event as written is actually published, meaning that this stands alone as an event sanctioned by Groundspeak. ANYTHING else is extra on the part of the host and is not required. Otherwise, it would have never been published in its current form.

Edited March 18, 2015 by coachstahly

[cezanne]

 

Maybe it's an language issue. I would understand this in a way that it were also fulfilled if for whatever reasons the event is ended at 12:10.

 

It can't end earlier than 1 PM, but if you're an attendee, it ends whenever you leave the posted coordinates.

 

I would understand the formulation "to no later than" in the sense that the event will not end later than 1pm but could end earlier too.

 

I know that unloading boats and getting ready takes longer than 10 minutes, I used 12:10 as an example.

 

but the host will stay until NO LATER than 1300, meaning the host will be there until that time but not past it.

 

Does that follow when writing no later than 13:00 without writing 12:00-13:00 (which then again "no later" seems not necessary).

 

In my area, yes, and I would assume the same for MN. In my state, if it's a state owned water facility, you also have to have the appropriate watercraft registration sticker, which costs another 5$.

 

Good to know.

 

And another question: Suppose the event host would have included also an optional picnic in the submitted event listing and said something like "After the water trip, feel free to join us starting from 1 pm for a picnic at .....". Would the reviewer then have asked to reverse the event setting and turn the picnic into the real event and leave the water trip as optional one?

No, because the picnic is the optional event in this case. The event as written is actually published, meaning that this stands alone as an event sanctioned by Groundspeak. ANYTHING else is extra on the part of the host and is not required. Otherwise, it would have never been published in its current form.

 

I asked because of Moun10Bike's statement of making an event attendable by everyone.

[+BBWolf+3Pigs]

 

I guess I'm a too formal person to feel comfortable with that. being late as a host even by 1 minute without a very serious reason does not feel appropriate to me but on the other hand I do not want to spend 1 hour in addition at the target area in the worst case just to be sure not to be late.

 

 

Then you just need to relax a little. No one will care if you are a minute or two or ten late. Not unless they are jerks.

[+coachstahly]

 

I guess I'm a too formal person to feel comfortable with that. being late as a host even by 1 minute without a very serious reason does not feel appropriate to me but on the other hand I do not want to spend 1 hour in addition at the target area in the worst case just to be sure not to be late.

 

 

I'm pretty sure attendees will forgive you if you're late by just a couple minutes, especially if some of them are with you while hiking up. If they can forgive you, you should be willing to forgive yourself for being a minute late.

 

If you're an hour early, continue hiking 28 minutes in the opposite direction so you have a 28 minute hike back to the summit and therefore only have 4 extra minutes. You don't have to stay at the summit if the event hasn't started yet. Go explore and enjoy your time doing the thing you love to do until it's time to be at the posted coordinates.

 

This talk about how hard it is for a heterogenous group to figure out how long it will take to get to the summit is purely for the sake of argument. It's really nice that you care that everyone gets to the event on time, but since you're an attendee (and not the host), the only person you should worry about is yourself and getting there on time. I'm pretty sure the rest of the attendees are thinking about how long it will take them to get to the summit and planning appropriately. It will take a heterogenous group a variety of times to walk 1 Km on a paved street. It could take 4-6 minutes if they walk at a REALLY fast pace, 7-10 if at a steady and quick pace, 10-15 at a leisurely pace, and even longer under other situations. The same goes for a hike to the summit. If you don't know your pace (which in your case I find hard to believe) and how long it will take you to get there, contact the host and start asking questions. Exactly how long is the hike (or close enough to get a good time frame)? What is the trail like? Rocky? Packed dirt? Animal trail? What sort of elevation changes? Slow and steady rises? Flat except at one stretch where it's really steep? Switchbacks to increase the length to lessen the elevation changes? Once you have as much information as you need, you post to the page and say I'm meeting at the trailhead at this time to start my hike because this is how long it will take me to get to the summit and still arrive slightly before the start of the event. Some will be faster hikers, some will be slower hikers, and some hikers will be near your pace. Those that are faster might slow down to talk with slower paced hikers and slower paced hikers would be well-served to allow some extra time, just in case.

[+coachstahly]

 

I would understand the formulation "to no later than" in the sense that the event will not end later than 1pm but could end earlier too.

 

 

As a native English speaking American, NO LATER THAN means that the person will be there until that exact time and will NOT stay later or leave earlier. It would prevent anyone from logging the event who shows up AFTER 1300.

 

 

I asked because of Moun10Bike's statement of making an event attendable by everyone.

 

Why this insistence on being so literal? THIS event allows for some attendees to log the event if they're physically unable to paddle to the coordinates. It does NOT allow for someone, in good health and with the ability to paddle a boat, swim, or float to log the event from the shore because they don't have a boat, can't swim, or don't have a raft or inner tube. A 5 T rated event explicitly means that special equipment is needed and if you don't have the special equipment, you can't log the event, except in situations where the host defines them. There are a variety of ways to get the special equipment and I'm willing to bet that the host would be more than happy to let a possible attendee know how to get ahold of the special equipment.

 

The host of the event WANTS people to kayak/swim/raft, not just log an attended to get the smiley, so they post the coordinates in the middle of a lake. If a host WANTS people to hike, not just log an attended to get the smiley, they post the coordinates at the top of a summit, requiring them to hike to get there.

Edited March 18, 2015 by coachstahly

[+thebruce0]

My all-time greatest caching experience was this cache. About 12 of us met up and did the hike. What was great was I got a chance to chat with everyone along the way. We each took our time, and rested when we felt like it. Which meant that at some point I was walking next to someone else in the group over the 6+ hours. This is what will happen with an event as I've described (and it will happen - that's how my kayak events have turned out).

 

Here's a picture of that hike:

 

Dude. I have totally bookmarked that cache in my special bookmark list for the off chance I EVER get to Hawaii

 

ETA: OH OH ! And I may host a half hour lunch event at the best point along the hike! Brilliant!

Edited March 18, 2015 by thebruce0

[knowschad]

Here is a water event (kayak, canoe, swimming, rafting, tubing, wind surfing) event by bflentje, who posts here occasionally. D/T 2.5/5

 

I'm not sure what this example should show.

 

Take from it what, if anything, you can. You don't seem to want to have your mind changed, but I offer that as proof that not all events need to take place in a smoky restaurant, as you seem to fear.

[+BBWolf+3Pigs]

My all-time greatest caching experience was this cache. About 12 of us met up and did the hike. What was great was I got a chance to chat with everyone along the way. We each took our time, and rested when we felt like it. Which meant that at some point I was walking next to someone else in the group over the 6+ hours. This is what will happen with an event as I've described (and it will happen - that's how my kayak events have turned out).

 

Here's a picture of that hike:

 

Dude. I have totally bookmarked that cache in my special bookmark list for the off chance I EVER get to Hawaii

 

ETA: OH OH ! And I may host a half hour lunch event at the best point along the hike! Brilliant!

 

There was no "best point" along the hike. There were many!

[cezanne]

Here is a water event (kayak, canoe, swimming, rafting, tubing, wind surfing) event by bflentje, who posts here occasionally. D/T 2.5/5

 

I'm not sure what this example should show.

 

Take from it what, if anything, you can. You don't seem to want to have your mind changed, but I offer that as proof that not all events need to take place in a smoky restaurant, as you seem to fear.

 

No, I never feared that on a worldwide scale, not even for the whole of my country but for the more urban areas around Vienna and my home town.

I always talked about the affects on the event scene in those areas I know the best.

[cezanne]

 

I would understand the formulation "to no later than" in the sense that the event will not end later than 1pm but could end earlier too.

 

 

As a native English speaking American, NO LATER THAN means that the person will be there until that exact time and will NOT stay later or leave earlier. It would prevent anyone from logging the event who shows up AFTER 1300.

 

Does no later than in the US really enforce that it can't be earlier?

Of course I know the phrase in the sense of "hand in your assignments no later than ...." or some formulations in legal contexts but there it is never meant that it can't be earlier.

It's of course obvious that the attendants need not to be there until 13:00, but I wonder how one formulates the difference between the situation when a shop is opened until 10:00 with a guarantee and a party which ends no later than 10:00.

 

 

I asked because of Moun10Bike's statement of making an event attendable by everyone.

 

Why this insistence on being so literal? THIS event allows for some attendees to log the event if they're physically unable to paddle to the coordinates. It does NOT allow for someone, in good health and with the ability to paddle a boat, swim, or float to log the event from the shore because they don't have a boat, can't swim, or don't have a raft or inner tube. A 5 T rated event explicitly means that special equipment is needed and if you don't have the special equipment, you can't log the event, except in situations where the host defines them. There are a variety of ways to get the special equipment and I'm willing to bet that the host would be more than happy to let a possible attendee know how to get ahold of the special equipment.

 

I do not have an issue with the event - I even would not have one if I were in a wheelchair and no logging option for people in a wheelchair were offered.

I was confused by Moun10Bike's formulation and that was also one of the points where I still do not understand why Keystone and NeverSummer claim that Moun10Bike essentially said the same as the appeals team.

And yes, of course I try to interpret the guidelines and what is said here exactly and literally.

 

The host of the event WANTS people to kayak/swim/raft, not just log an attended to get the smiley, so they post the coordinates in the middle of a lake. If a host WANTS people to hike, not just log an attended to get the smiley, they post the coordinates at the top of a summit, requiring them to hike to get there.

 

I regret that this is the only way to achieve this goal.

[+BBWolf+3Pigs]

By the way the event indeed looks great, but much above my abilities. When seeing only the picture I first thought that it was kind of joke about me and somehow suggested that the event host got stuck in despair.

 

Here's a thought to stay within your abilities...

 

You enjoy hiding "walking tour" type caches, which is pretty cool (I have one in Newport, RI).

 

Have you considered a "Walking Tour" event? Find a convenient midpoint for your tour (a park with picnic benches, etc.).

 

List an official event at that location from 1200-1230 (or whatever a reasonable timer period is) as the "official" event. Make it a "Bring your own lunch" type event.

 

In the listing, state you will start a "walking tour" of the locale at whatever time is appropriate to do the tour to the picnic site. Include the waypoints you will be visiting (including approximate times of when you will be there).

 

Start your tour, pointing out all of the cool and interesting history along the walk path at the listed waypoints. People can join you from the start, or meet up at one of the waypoints, or at the picnic area. After the picnic, continue your tour. People may continue with you or not.

 

You will have people the whole tour, portions of the tour, or just at the picnic. Everyone does what they want/are comfortable with. And there's plenty of time between the waypoints for people to socialize along the walk. And since it is "street level", you should have no issues with timing or ability level.

 

Wins all the way around.

 

(And for the record, I would definitely attend the whole tour, especially if the host is very knowledgeable about the area and would provide new and interesting info about locations I pass by everyday. In fact, I may steal my own idea for just such an event in my area!)

Edited March 18, 2015 by BBWolf+3Pigs

[+GeoLog81]

List an official event at that location from 1200-1230 (or whatever a reasonable timer period is) as the "official" event. Make it a "Bring your own lunch" type event.

 

Now she'll write it is not acceptable, because she'll have to sit on the coordinates for at least half an hour, and it's not walking event anymore, and it kills spontaneity because it may happen the group will arrive sooner and will want to leave sooner etc.

 

Many people have tried hard proposing many solutions, but nothing has worked.

[+BBWolf+3Pigs]

List an official event at that location from 1200-1230 (or whatever a reasonable timer period is) as the "official" event. Make it a "Bring your own lunch" type event.

 

Now she'll write it is not acceptable, because she'll have to sit on the coordinates for at least half an hour, and it's not walking event anymore, and it kills spontaneity because it may happen the group will arrive sooner and will want to leave sooner etc.

 

Many people have tried hard proposing many solutions, but nothing has worked.

 

I know we've tried, but I guess I am just a bit too stubborn to give up.