Hiking Events

1.2k · March 12, 2015

For example, the holder of the ice skating event will not organize again an ice skating event on geocaching.com, but she plans to continue the acticity next year outside of geocaching.com.

However non locals and newcomers will never get to know about these non Groundspeak events and they will never ever experience one of the great outdoor events in those areas where event hosts are not at all happy with how they are treated.

For once you have stated a valid fact. If the lady does not put the event on GC.com then she will get fewer geocachers to the event. That is on her.

We have shown you time and again that she CAN put the entire event on GC.com, but you refuse to listen.

4.8k · March 12, 2015

As I said skating has not been enforced in previous years either.

Nobody's forced to skate. The ratings appear to be meaningless for those that post an Attended and did not participate in the skating.

It's as if the Host(ess) is saying, "yes, I'm going to rate this for the skating portion, but it's a meaningless gesture and of no value to those that chose to skate."

Such an underachieving attitude really hurts my soul.

6.8k · March 12, 2015

Nobody's forced to skate. The ratings appear to be meaningless for those that post an Attended and did not participate in the skating.

But I prefer a meaningless rating for those who just are there for the attended log to a meaningless rating for those who are there for the skating

as for me the event is the skating. I see the option to log attended without taking part just as something offered due to the guidelines.

If the skating cannot be part of the event, then the best is to get away from geocaching.com with such events at all. That is much less frustrating than the status quo.

9.1k · March 12, 2015

Well, apart from the fact that events exist where at least paying for the food is compulsory

Nope. Depending on the nature of the event, you can't have one that requires payment in order to attend. Exceptions may be granted for park admittance, and the issue can be discussed and negotiated with your reviewer and/or appeals, but the basic rule is that you cannot require a fee to attend an event. So no, paying for food can't be compulsory for attendance.

The pizza eating does take place during the interval between start and end time of the event (at least for a pizza eating event). So the pizza eating is officially recognized as part of the event.

Pizza eating is not required. It is an optional activity. It is not a pizza eating event. It's a social event at which pizza can be eaten.

Hiking is not required. Hiking is an optional activity. It is not a hiking event. It's a social event after which a hike can be taken.

The essential difference is the one mentioned above: The hike is not allowed to be part of the event, pizza eating is.

They are exactly the same.

Neither can be required. Both are optional. Whether during, before, or after the posted times and location.

Being part does not mean that every person who logs attended has participated in the hike.

Precisely.

Because the hike activity cannot be required in order to Attend the event.

If people leave the pizza eating and go caching on their own or in groups, this is not part of the event in the same way as it is required for the hike though the hike is what a hiking event is about.

If people leave the pizza eating place, the pizza eating was irrelevant. If they were at the event at the posted coordinates during its running time, then they did indeed attend the event. Even if they didn't eat pizza. Which isn't required. Just like hiking, which cannot be required. But can be optional.

Is it that hard to understand (you do not need to share my opinion) that I have an issue with the set up

No, it's not hard for us to understand. Not in the slightest. Your opinion is very, very clear. Annoyingly so.

I'm really looking forward to the 3 T hiking event we've attended for the past 3 years and had so much fun at. Wait. What? It's a 3 T still, but it's halfway up the trail and it's a break for lunch, so it's a lunch event, not a hike. I have NO idea how long it will take me to reach the location and even though the cache page says that we can set up plans to meet beforehand to hike up together, it's still just a lunch event. I REALLY wanted to go on the hike but because the event is only a lunch event and not a hike, I'm not as interested anymore and it won't be as fun, so I won't go.

THIS is the one that gets me the most. I just don't understand. This is the optimal solution for the "hike" ..thing. I cannot fathom how this is not acceptable.

I have not seen a pizza event where it was enforced to write "You do not need to eat pizza" (I would have been a ridiculous just in the same way as for ice skating, the hike etc).

Exactly. It's implied.

"We're meeting at a pizza restaurant, come join us" doesn't mean "your Attended log will be deleted if you don't eat pizza". The latter will not be published. Pizza eating is optional. Hiking is optional. Whether or not you do either is irrelevant to whether you Attended the event.

Minimal common denominator for geocache listings: Get to the posted coordinates, do what's required to post a success (Find/Attended) log. Nothing else can be required. An Event has a location and a duration. Get there during that time, and you've "Attended" the Event. Regardless of whatever else happens - before, after, or during. The concept is fundamentally opposed the "moving" activities. For this reason also, "moving geocaches" are disallowed. I'm frankly surprised that there's still one running around, likely grandfathered with a big exception. Moving geocaches are (now) against the rules. Thus, moving events are against the rules. A time window of at least 30 minutes must be required in order to "define" the Event Listing. The activities (wehther pizza eating or hiking) that occur during the Event period (or before or after), whether at the posted coordinates or elsewhere, are irrelevant to Attending and entirely up to the Event Host. As long as the Event Listing is valid at the posted coordinates for its time duration.

Get over it.

(I'm sure you won't)

But I prefer a meaningless rating for those who just are there for the attended log to a meaningless rating for those who are there for the skating
as for me the event is the skating. I see the option to log attended without taking part just as something offered due to the guidelines.

Bummer. That's not how it is.

It is an issue I have with Groundspeak's stance on what constitutes an event and how they treat cachers whose favourite geocaching events are active ones.

7.4k · March 12, 2015

If someone organizes a 5 hours hike, he/she does not deserve to be treated as someone fulfilling just the bare minimum of the event requirements.

Everyone who creates an event or a physical geocache is treated as someone fulfilling or not fulfilling the bare minimum requirements. The reviewers make sure the basic requirements are fulfilled, and if they are, the event is published.

I realize that everyone wishes their super special snowflake caches and events received some elevated status, but that's not reasonable.

If it hurts your soul to find out that your event is not a unique snowflake, that's a matter of your reaction, not the rules.

6.8k · March 12, 2015

If someone organizes a 5 hours hike, he/she does not deserve to be treated as someone fulfilling just the bare minimum of the event requirements.

Everyone who creates an event or a physical geocache is treated as someone fulfilling or not fulfilling the bare minimum requirements. The reviewers make sure the basic requirements are fulfilled, and if they are, the event is published.

But that's not true. Groundspeak speaks of overachievers with respect to events that take longer than 30 minutes and makes it clear in other texts that the duration and food, rest rooms and parking space are essential criteria for them when it comes to tell cachers what is recommendable for an event.

The reviewers of course publish every event that meets the bare minimum, but it was not talking about the publishing business.

If it hurts your soul to find out that your event is not a unique snowflake, that's a matter of your reaction, not the rules.

It's hardly about me when Groundspeak uses such language.

Edited March 12, 2015 by cezanne

6.8k · March 12, 2015

Well, apart from the fact that events exist where at least paying for the food is compulsory

Nope. Depending on the nature of the event, you can't have one that requires payment in order to attend. Exceptions may be granted for park admittance, and the issue can be discussed and negotiated with your reviewer and/or appeals, but the basic rule is that you cannot require a fee to attend an event. So no, paying for food can't be compulsory for attendance.

This set up turns up when a buffet style food is ordered and the food place opens only for the cachers. Then the food costs compensate somehow for the overall costs.

One cannot have participants who do not pay their share. What one can do of course is offering the chance to log an attended for those who do not enter the location and just say hi at the entrance door.

But for the real participation one has to pay and it's just because you cannot expect that the event host is paying all the costs.

It's not required to wait 30 minutes in front of the restaurant.

Pizza eating is not required. It is an optional activity. It is not a pizza eating event. It's a social event at which pizza can be eaten.

Not necessarily true. While one cannot enforce that someone consumes something for logging an attended log, such events can only work if the big majority consumes

something of appropriate value in connection with the time spent in the inn as otherwise the owner of the inn will never offer the reserved room or the entire inn for the

geocaching group again.

I'm really looking forward to the 3 T hiking event we've attended for the past 3 years and had so much fun at. Wait. What? It's a 3 T still, but it's halfway up the trail and it's a break for lunch, so it's a lunch event, not a hike. I have NO idea how long it will take me to reach the location and even though the cache page says that we can set up plans to meet beforehand to hike up together, it's still just a lunch event. I REALLY wanted to go on the hike but because the event is only a lunch event and not a hike, I'm not as interested anymore and it won't be as fun, so I won't go.

THIS is the one that gets me the most. I just don't understand. This is the optimal solution for the "hike" ..thing. I cannot fathom how this is not acceptable.

The better solution is forget about Groundspeak events.

Edited March 12, 2015 by cezanne

1.1k · March 12, 2015

But that's not true. Groundspeak speaks of overachievers with respect to events that take longer than 30 minutes and makes it clear in other texts that the duration and food, rest rooms and parking space are essential criteria for them when it comes to tell cachers what is recommendable for an event.

Honestly, how is overachieving relevant for geocaches and how would you like to prize it?

The minimum for attending the event is to come there and go. Even signing logbook is not required. So you can go to pizza event without paying anything, say hello and log 'attended'. But if someone orders the most expensive pizza and 5 beers, he's overachiever having to pay twice as much as others. How would you honour him?

Or there's a T2 Drive-In cache near highway. But if you don't have an auto, you have to walk there 10 km from railway station. So it's sooo unjust to such overachievers that the cache is only T2. It should be T4 at least. Actually, any caches with T<3 should be forbidden because it hurts overachievers who aren't satisfied with just driving in.

I hope you get the analogy and that D/T ranking should be based on minimal effort needed to log cache, not the maximal.

Otherwise, all caches in UK should be T5, because there are some people who can swim throught La Mache Channel to log them.

7.4k · March 12, 2015

But that's not true. Groundspeak speaks of overachievers with respect to events that take longer than 30 minutes and makes it clear in other texts that the duration and food, rest rooms and parking space are essential criteria for them when it comes to tell cachers what is recommendable for an event.

So your feelings are hurt because the more unique events aren't specifically described as "overachievers" in some communication meant to help n00bs hold their first event.

Maybe it's simply that out-of-the-box events aren't the first thing people should aim for when they decide to host an event. It's much easier to just invite people to a restaurant than it is to organize a big skating event. If Groundspeak uses the skating event as an example of a good event, then everyone thinks they have to live up to that and then their souls are scorched with the fire of 1000 burning suns.

Edited March 12, 2015 by narcissa

2k · March 12, 2015

For example, the holder of the ice skating event will not organize again an ice skating event on geocaching.com, but she plans to continue the acticity next year outside of geocaching.com.

Why? I keep asking why and I get no answer. The only thing she had to do differently was to change the rating and the wording in the cache description. What is it about those two things that got her all upset?

However non locals and newcomers will never get to know about these non Groundspeak events and they will never ever experience one of the great outdoor events in those areas where event hosts are not at all happy with how they are treated.

I'm still not sure how they're mistreated. Is it because they can't rate it the way it used to be rated or have to change the wording in the description?

If someone organizes a 5 hours hike, he/she does not deserve to be treated as someone fulfilling just the bare minimum of the event requirements. Reading the guide on how to host an event, everyone who organizes a hike and just writes bring along your own food, will be a worse event host than those who host an event in a restaurant (food, rest rooms etc). Again it's something that shows the attitude of Groundspeak towards events and what they communicate to new cachers what events are about.#

No. In your opinion, someone will be a worse host because they tell cachers to bring their own food. If the host wants me to bring my own food, then the host wants me to bring my own food. I don't see how that makes a host who has an event at a restaurant a "better" host. You probably have to spend more money at a restaurant than you would if you packed your own lunch. Neither one is better than the other; they're just different. So you also want different standards of recognition for different types of events. Who determines how hard the host works to provide a great experience? If an event host plans a 5 hour hike and spends 2 hours doing so, how is that any different than an event host planning a 2 hour dinner in a private room who spends 5 hours arranging all the details? Who worked harder? Why should one of them get more recognition than the other? They're both doing the exact same thing, planning an event for others to enjoy. The bare minimum is there to allow a variety of events and to treat each event equally, with as little work on the reviewers' end so that cachers can have events, across borders and cultures so that there can be some sort of continuity in ratings.

Of course for those who take part in a nice hike, the hike itself is not cheapened, but the fact that Groundspeak does not consider the hike as a valuable event contribution, makes me sad. Taken together with all their other recent changes it feels like they say "Leave. You are not welcome here."

Where/when has Groundspeak EVER said the hike is not a valuable event contribution? You're not allowed to have a moving event. That doesn't mean that Groundspeak considers the hike as having no value. It ONLY means you can't have a moving event. THERE IS NO VALUE, IMPLIED OR OTHERWISE. YOU value the moving event so you make the assumption that Groundspeak is de-valuing the hike by not allowing moving events. They're not. They're simply saying that you can't have a moving event, like you can't have a moving cache.

I read many of your posts and there's all this negativity as it pertains to geocaching with very little to say about the positive aspects of geocaching in your life. If you truly believe that's what Groundspeak is doing, then perhaps it's time to leave. I'm in NO way happy with everything that Groundspeak has done, just in the 4 1/2 years I've been involved, but I still manage to enjoy the activity, even with my disagreements in some of their decisions.

6.8k · March 12, 2015

For example, the holder of the ice skating event will not organize again an ice skating event on geocaching.com, but she plans to continue the acticity next year outside of geocaching.com.

Why? I keep asking why and I get no answer. The only thing she had to do differently was to change the rating and the wording in the cache description. What is it about those two things that got her all upset?

I answered already: Once again "With the old rating and the old listing, much more cachers participated in the skating (maybe some felt morally obliged".

The idea of the event has to get cachers on the ice and not to provide ice skating as an additional attraction to an event that otherwise would take place too.

I'm still not sure how they're mistreated. Is it because they can't rate it the way it used to be rated or have to change the wording in the description?

No, there is far more into it including degrading additional activities to be not part of the geocaching event.

Why should someone with no interest in a meet and greet style event host an event which is exactly that and then is allowed to announce an additional actitivity as something not part of the event?

No. In your opinion, someone will be a worse host because they tell cachers to bring their own food.

Not in mine. When judged upon some Groundspeak authored texts.

So you also want different standards of recognition for different types of events.

No, the same.

Who determines how hard the host works to provide a great experience? If an event host plans a 5 hour hike and spends 2 hours doing so, how is that any different than an event host planning a 2 hour dinner in a private room who spends 5 hours arranging all the details? Who worked harder?

I do not care. It's about the recognition from Groundspeak and not you or me.

That doesn't mean that Groundspeak considers the hike as having no value. It ONLY means you can't have a moving event. THERE IS NO VALUE, IMPLIED OR OTHERWISE. YOU value the moving event so you make the assumption that Groundspeak is de-valuing the hike by not allowing moving events. They're not. They're simply saying that you can't have a moving event, like you can't have a moving cache.

Even if one excludes moving events, they allow for additional activities and inclusion of further waypoints, but it is food and playing games they mention

and if you read through their event guide, there is not even a mention of optional activities which are not food and game related.

They apparently think that it is necessary to instruct event hosts about food and rest rooms, but do not spend one sentence on optional activities beyond what fits in their narrow concept of what is an event.

They do not even mention that hikes, boat trips etc could be announced on event pages. The reviewers currently allow this, but there is not a single Groundspeak document dealing with this.

So, yes, I think that from this a low value attributed to such activities can be read off.

I read many of your posts and there's all this negativity as it pertains to geocaching with very little to say about the positive aspects of geocaching in your life. If you truly believe that's what Groundspeak is doing, then perhaps it's time to leave. I'm in NO way happy with everything that Groundspeak has done, just in the 4 1/2 years I've been involved, but I still manage to enjoy the activity, even with my disagreements in some of their decisions.

Actually, I have been unhappy with everything Groundspeak has done in the last years and I'm sorry that it is really true.

Groundspeak has not contributed an epsilon to why I'm still there. All the positive experiences come from the contributions of some cachers in my area (hiders of caches I enjoyed and finders of my caches).

Edited March 12, 2015 by cezanne

2k · March 12, 2015

Pizza eating is not required. It is an optional activity. It is not a pizza eating event. It's a social event at which pizza can be eaten.

Not necessarily true. While one cannot enforce that someone consumes something for logging an attended log, such events can only work if the big majority consumes

something of appropriate value in connection with the time spent in the inn as otherwise the owner of the inn will never offer the reserved room or the entire inn for the

geocaching group again.

Now you're just arguing to argue. If the event is at a restaurant, it's my assumption that it's around a meal time, otherwise why schedule it in a restaurant. If it's not a meal time event, a library, a park shelter, a coffeehouse or any other facility that would work would probably be preferable. So people are going to a restaurant at a meal time and aren't going to order anything to fill their empty bellies? No drinks, no snacks, no food. That certainly sounds appealing. I'll give you this - it COULD happen but I've yet to see that happen. EVERY event I've been to at a restaurant, I've seen the majority of attendees order food.

I'm really looking forward to the 3 T hiking event we've attended for the past 3 years and had so much fun at. Wait. What? It's a 3 T still, but it's halfway up the trail and it's a break for lunch, so it's a lunch event, not a hike. I have NO idea how long it will take me to reach the location and even though the cache page says that we can set up plans to meet beforehand to hike up together, it's still just a lunch event. I REALLY wanted to go on the hike but because the event is only a lunch event and not a hike, I'm not as interested anymore and it won't be as fun, so I won't go.

THIS is the one that gets me the most. I just don't understand. This is the optimal solution for the "hike" ..thing. I cannot fathom how this is not acceptable.

The better solution is forget about Groundspeak events.

Really? Why do we even bother?

7.4k · March 12, 2015

Why? I keep asking why and I get no answer. The only thing she had to do differently was to change the rating and the wording in the cache description. What is it about those two things that got her all upset?

We all know why people get upset about T/D and it has nothing to do with the actual purpose of those ratings.

6.8k · March 12, 2015

Now you're just arguing to argue.

No, I was taking real examples of events I have come across.

There are events where a certain type of food is arranged and it is then the only one available.

So the option then is take the food or at least pay your share of the buffet (this is often chosen to deal with a larger number of people where a la carte orderings do not work or are at least unwanted)

or stay at home. People tend to accept that. The same could work for hiking, paddling etc

If it's not a meal time event, a library, a park shelter, a coffeehouse or any other facility that would work would probably be preferable.

All these places are linked with a cost or it is not legal to stay there as a group without special arrangements.

Indoor events in restaurants are the by far most common events in my country.

The better solution is forget about Groundspeak events.

Really? Why do we even bother?

My original hope was to arrive at something where the hike/bike ride etc can be part of the event if the event

includes a period of 30 minutes at the posted coordinates.

If the only chance is to organize the hike etc outside of the window between start and end times, then hosting such events

on gc.com makes no sense at all.

2k · March 12, 2015

I answered already: Once again "With the old rating and the old listing, much more cachers participated in the skating (maybe some felt morally obliged".

The idea of the event has to get cachers on the ice and not to provide ice skating as an additional attraction to an event that otherwise would take place too.

So a change in D/T and a change in the description caused less people to ice skate? Am I the only one that finds this an odd correlation?

Not in mine. When judged upon some Groundspeak authored texts.

Which are for general public consumption (non-geocachers) and newer geocachers and are not meant to be the ONLY type of events you can do, just a basic type that they might be interested in.

I do not care. It's about the recognition from Groundspeak and not you or me.

Why does Groundspeak owe you, me, or anyone recognition? Groundspeak has NO idea on how hard a host has worked on their event, how much money they've spent, how many hours of planning, or how much stress it has caused the host. They only care about getting it published. The ONLY events I can think of where Groundspeak might/probably need to know more than usual would be the mega-events.

Even if one excludes moving events, they allow for additional activities and inclusion of further waypoints, but it is food and playing games they mention

and if you read through their event guide, there is not even a mention of optional activities which are not food and game related.

They apparently think that it is necessary to instruct event hosts about food and rest rooms, but do not spend one sentence on optional activities beyond what fits in their narrow concept of what is an event.

They do not even mention that hikes, boat trips etc could be announced on event pages. The reviewers currently allow this, but there is not a single Groundspeak document dealing with this.

So, yes, I think that from this a low value attributed to such activities can be read off.

Again, that fine piece of literature is for general public consumption (non-geocachers) and newer geocachers and is not meant to be the ONLY type of event you can do, just a basic type that they might be interested in. It is NOT their guidelines of what an event MUST be, just what one example CAN be. Would you be happier if they used this event as their boilerplate for a brochure for the masses? Have you emailed TPTB with your concerns about how it appears that they're only advocating for one type of event and all others are therefore considered worthless? Have you mentioned to them that it would be great if the next general article about events contained a more well-rounded representation of the myriad of events that are actually out there? Or have you just mentioned this complaint here on the forums? BE THE AGENT OF CHANGE instead of the complainer about how things are done.

2k · March 12, 2015

If it's not a meal time event, a library, a park shelter, a coffeehouse or any other facility that would work would probably be preferable.

All these places are linked with a cost or it is not legal to stay there as a group without special arrangements.

Indoor events in restaurants are the by far most common events in my country.

I know. I just provided examples of alternative sites that would be suitable if not around a meal time event. I assumed that the host would make sure that a group could legally gather at ANY of these locations. Again, you raise issues where none really needed to be raised to try to make a point.

Indoor events in restaurants are some of the most common ones in my state as well. They're not the ONLY type though.

March 12, 2015

I marvel that this thread keeps going strong! When last I looked it was at 7 pages and now it's up to 10. I have a running bet with someone that it will get to a certain number. Please let me win so he has to dress up like a woman the next time we cache together!! Pleeeeeease!!

2k · March 12, 2015

Apparently in your quest to make your points about events, you forgot to include some gems taken from the same page you linked to that specify something about outdoor events.

I am hosting an outdoor event. What if it rains?

Decide this ahead of time and post this clearly on the event page. Keep in mind that the terrain and difficulty ratings may increase with inclement weather and that will determine much of your attendance and activities.

If you are hosting an outdoor event, make sure to ask land managers about any required permits.

What are Event Caches?

Event caches are gatherings that are organized and attended by geocachers. It’s the geocaching version of a party. Check out the event calendar to see examples.

It doesn't say it's a party, it's a geocaching version of a party (whatever that might mean) and they provide a hyperlink to see other examples, which provides you with a calendar listing of all events on a day by day time frame.

Here's the link.

Yes, the majority of the text is about food, games, and rest rooms (although I find the rest rooms to be very important!), but activities can be construed to mean a variety of things like biking, hiking, kayaking, etc...

Also, I see this section more of an introduction to events targeted specifically at new geocachers instead of seasoned cachers. Should they provide more information about the variety? It certainly couldn't hurt, but I don't see them as endorsing these types of events, just providing examples of the most common events (of which one is the most common in your country and in my state).

2k · March 12, 2015

I marvel that this thread keeps going strong! When last I looked it was at 7 pages and now it's up to 10. I have a running bet with someone that it will get to a certain number. Please let me win so he has to dress up like a woman the next time we cache together!! Pleeeeeease!!

So what's the number? I'll do my best to make it happen but you MUST post pictures of the loser! :laughing:

9.1k · March 12, 2015

If the only chance is to organize the hike etc outside of the window between start and end times, then hosting such events

on gc.com makes no sense at all.

BINGO!

4.8k · March 12, 2015

If the only chance is to organize the hike etc outside of the window between start and end times, then hosting such events

on gc.com makes no sense at all.

It really seems like your efforts to fit a square peg in a round hole are just going to end in disappointment and frustration.

Let's look at this problem from a business standpoint:

Groundspeak's primary role in the game is data management. At that task, they have no equal. Even an 800 lb gorilla like Garmin is such a distant second, that it's not even in the field of view.

There second task is to evaluate their customer base, and cater to their target audience. To that end, Groundspeak seems willing to take a few chances and try some new things to attempt to capture as many customers as possible.

When I started caching, Events had to be at the posted coordinates. It sounds like from what you're saying (and others), that this was relaxed a bit, for whatever reason. We're now going back to the original intent of how an Event is defined, so that kind of begs the question why. There have been any number of conjectures presented, and certainly any number of them can be correct (or maybe all of them).

But back to the point at hand. cezanne I truly believe you need to find another outlet, and I have a solution: OCR

Advantages:

1. Very social. I entered one with a team from work. The object of the race is to stick together and help each other over the obstacles, so there's lots of time to talk and socialize.

2. Great community. Even if you're not on a team (and I highly recommend a team), you can usually find someone to give you some help and avoid the penalties (see disadvantages below).

3. You get recognition. Most of the races have all manner of swag, and most involve getting a medal of some sort at the end.

4. Other than yourself, you aren't expected to bring anything. Water is usually provided on the course, and there's food vendors at the end of the race for a very reasonable cost.

Disadvantages:

1. Cost. It ain't cheap

2. Can't make it over/under the obstacle, there's usually some sort of penalty. This varies from one race to the next. The one I did involved doing penalty burpees. Some will add 5-10 minutes to your time; it all depends on how the race is set up.

3. You're going to get scratched and dirty. If you care about how you look or have an aversion to pain, this might not be the activity for you.

Here's me on the barbed wire crawl....see how much fun I'm having!

6.8k · March 12, 2015

Apparently in your quest to make your points about events, you forgot to include some gems taken from the same page you linked to that specify something about outdoor events.

I read them and took them into account. I did not mean that the event guidelines favour indoor events. But when it comes to outdoor events again topics like food and shelter seem to be the

primary ones for Groundspeak.

What are Event Caches?

Event caches are gatherings that are organized and attended by geocachers. It’s the geocaching version of a party. Check out the event calendar to see examples.

It doesn't say it's a party, it's a geocaching version of a party (whatever that might mean) and they provide a hyperlink to see other examples, which provides you with a calendar listing of all events on a day by day time frame.

I have read that before - I object against the formulation "geocaching version of a party" and have mentioned that before.

A hike, boat trip etc do not fit at all into this context.

Yes, the majority of the text is about food, games, and rest rooms (although I find the rest rooms to be very important!), but activities can be construed to mean a variety of things like biking, hiking, kayaking, etc...

They could, but not a single word is spent on them and not a single statement of a reviewer or lackey is to be found where they welcome an event that for example works like the ones suggested here:

30 minutes event and then head off for a hike/boat trip etc.

It really makes me wonder whether what is behind is not indeed a lack of appreciation and the stance that events should be like parties.

Also, I see this section more of an introduction to events targeted specifically at new geocachers instead of seasoned cachers. Should they provide more information about the variety? It certainly couldn't hurt, but I don't see them as endorsing these types of events, just providing examples of the most common events (of which one is the most common in your country and in my state).

In any case reading their texts makes me feel that all what an event has meant to me since 2002 differs from what it apparently means to Groundspeak. In combination with all the changes I are making and which they sell as exciting new improvements I more and more feel that I'm at the wrong place and that Groundspeak does not appreciate at all the events and caches that cachers like myself prefer.

(It is not only related to events.) Of course some part of this is a psychological issue.

6.8k · March 12, 2015

Now you're just arguing to argue.

No, I was taking real examples of events I have come across.

There are events where a certain type of food is arranged and it is then the only one available.

So the option then is take the food or at least pay your share of the buffet (this is often chosen to deal with a larger number of people where a la carte orderings do not work or are at least unwanted)

or stay at home. People tend to accept that. The same could work for hiking, paddling etc

If it's not a meal time event, a library, a park shelter, a coffeehouse or any other facility that would work would probably be preferable.

All these places are linked with a cost or it is not legal to stay there as a group without special arrangements.

Indoor events in restaurants are the by far most common events in my country.

The better solution is forget about Groundspeak events.

Really? Why do we even bother?

My original hope was to arrive at something where the hike/bike ride etc can be part of the event if the event

includes a period of 30 minutes at the posted coordinates.

If the only chance is to organize the hike etc outside of the window between start and end times, then hosting such events

on gc.com makes no sense at all.

Edited March 12, 2015 by cezanne

7.4k · March 12, 2015

In any case reading their texts makes me feel that all what an event has meant to me since 2002 differs from what it apparently means to Groundspeak. In combination with all the changes I are making and which they sell as exciting new improvements I more and more feel that I'm at the wrong place and that Groundspeak does not appreciate at all the events and caches that cachers like myself prefer.

Maybe you should stop reading between the lines. It's a diverse game. The fact that they focus on one aspect of it in a given communication doesn't mean they hate you.

One of their recent blog posts featured a geocacher from Hungary who organizes, among other things, rowing events. They praise him for growing the game with his events.

6.8k · March 12, 2015

When I started caching, Events had to be at the posted coordinates. It sounds like from what you're saying (and others), that this was relaxed a bit, for whatever reason. We're now going back to the original intent of how an Event is defined, so that kind of begs the question why. There have been any number of conjectures presented, and certainly any number of them can be correct (or maybe all of them).

In my area they never had to be at the posted coordinates and whenever within the last 2-3 years event pages had to be rewritten the reviewer told the even owners that they have to change their page becuase the guidelines have changed. In some cases even the reviewer notes with the text have been made public, so I have proof of that.

It might well be that they acted differently in different coins of the world (as it happened with respect to many other aspects, too).

It is also clear that for those in other areas the change will be less dramatic than if after more 12.5 years into geocaching one is confronted with the feeling that apparently almost everything one believed events are about is wrong.

But back to the point at hand. cezanne I truly believe you need to find another outlet, and I have a solution: OCR

I would not even manage a single obstacle, not even with the greatest help ever.

What I wrote is much less about me than you might suspect. It is about the effect on the local community as a whole. I have watched so many leaving and this focus on

party style of events fits well into the development. Geocaching becomes less and less attractive for those who seek out for physical activity and more and more absurd rules are

added which care about logging and not about the real experience. This turns more and more people away and changes the expectations with which people start to geocache.

I have never read logs for a hiking event where people complained that no new caches nearby have been hidden while for party style events this is often the case.

Many people do expect at least a few new caches to come out around an event. Also the expectations with regard to the quality of the supplied food have risen considerably.

No wonder somehow if food plays such a predominant role on Groundspeak's pages about events. Etc

The ice skating event I mentioned that will not take place on gc.com again and some other event series that stopped after an event setup had to be changed and did not continue in the year to follow

did not involve me at all. It was no my decision not to host those events again. It happened and I have to live with the result.

You need not understand why those hosts are frustrated - fact is that they reacted by stopping to host such events on gc.com.

6.8k · March 12, 2015

In any case reading their texts makes me feel that all what an event has meant to me since 2002 differs from what it apparently means to Groundspeak. In combination with all the changes I are making and which they sell as exciting new improvements I more and more feel that I'm at the wrong place and that Groundspeak does not appreciate at all the events and caches that cachers like myself prefer.

Maybe you should stop reading between the lines. It's a diverse game. The fact that they focus on one aspect of it in a given communication doesn't mean they hate you.

One of their recent blog posts featured a geocacher from Hungary who organizes, among other things, rowing events. They praise him for growing the game with his events.

Side note: I really wonder why they meanwhile use so many side communication channels, facebook, blog etc

I take this site as reference for their rules and what they expect cachers to do.

Hate is too strong in any case - I just feel at the wrong place and not welcome and their new starting page, the new search tool and many other things reinforce that feeling.

On the other hand, they praised illegal caches on their blog pages or linked to videos showing such caches. These reports typically seem to come into existence because a particular person liked a particular cache - this is not so much an official Groundspeak stance.

Do you have a link?

I found events like that one

http://www.geocaching.com/geocache/GC4K8NR_ratour-i-nagy-szenas

but they are moving and do not mention start and end time (apart from the fact that they have been published by one of the reviewers active also in my country where they only recently changed the policy).

Such events are a perfect example what goes missing with the new rules.

Edited March 12, 2015 by cezanne

3.1k · March 12, 2015

Wait...so in the last additional page since I posted last night (10 hours ago!), I've learned that I can't have a pizza eating event?

My soul! Now cast into a furnace of a thousand fires, I fear that I will never regain the joy and camaraderie I once knew when I was a child! Woe is me! I will resign myself instead to eating only the decaying flesh of the spring's crabapple, soaked in the tears of a thousand children... :tired:

2k · March 12, 2015

I read them and took them into account. I did not mean that the event guidelines favour indoor events. But when it comes to outdoor events again topics like food and shelter seem to be the

primary ones for Groundspeak.

Primary or most common? There's a difference. Primary means that's what they're specifically focusing on while most common refers to the most common types of things to be on the lookout for to make your event a success. I think it's on there because it's the most common type of thing to look for when creating an event, not necessarily the MAIN kind they want people to focus on.

They could, but not a single word is spent on them and not a single statement of a reviewer or lackey is to be found where they welcome an event that for example works like the ones suggested here:

30 minutes event and then head off for a hike/boat trip etc.

That doesn't mean that they WON'T or CAN'T welcome an event that works like ones suggested here. It only means that they provided the most common type.

Again, I say, have you emailed TPTB with your concerns about how it appears that they're only advocating for one type of event and all others are therefore considered worthless? Have you mentioned to them that it would be great if the next general article about events contained a more well-rounded representation of the myriad of events that are actually out there? Or have you just mentioned this complaint here on the forums? BE THE AGENT OF CHANGE instead of the complainer about how things are done.

3.1k · March 12, 2015

In any case reading their texts makes me feel that all what an event has meant to me since 2002 differs from what it apparently means to Groundspeak. In combination with all the changes I are making and which they sell as exciting new improvements I more and more feel that I'm at the wrong place and that Groundspeak does not appreciate at all the events and caches that cachers like myself prefer.

Maybe you should stop reading between the lines. It's a diverse game. The fact that they focus on one aspect of it in a given communication doesn't mean they hate you.

One of their recent blog posts featured a geocacher from Hungary who organizes, among other things, rowing events. They praise him for growing the game with his events.

Side note: I really wonder why they meanwhile use so many side communication channels, facebook, blog etc

I take this site as reference for their rules and what they expect cachers to do.

Hate is too strong in any case - I just feel at the wrong place and not welcome and their new starting page, the new search tool and many other things reinforce that feeling.

On the other hand, they praised illegal caches on their blog pages or linked to videos showing such caches. These reports typically seem to come into existence because a particular person liked a particular cache - this is not so much an official Groundspeak stance.

Now you're going to talk about how Groundspeak doesn't communicate to you on your terms?? Are you kidding me?

I don't often get to the blog, and really don't follow their Facebook (even though I participate on other Facebook groups often). But I still understand the vector Groundspeak is on... Strange!

As you can see, the pessimistic homebody that you portray yourself as has simply found that the reality of this game is apart from the bubble you've formed on your own.

Groundspeak celebrates innovation and creative events--even ROWING EVENTS!

Groundspeak has left room for hiking events to still happen, but only if you follow their guidelines for publication.

Groundspeak asks that we rate our caches appropriately.

If these things are too hard to grasp, then we'll never reach you on your level. You've fallen too deep into your despair and presumption.

(BTW, I have a "hiking event" in the hopper, under review. This could be interesting! Look at me, putting my action where my words are!)

6.8k · March 12, 2015

Groundspeak celebrates innovation and creative events--even ROWING EVENTS!

Do they? It appears to me that it refers to a nominee for Geocacher of the Month and those rowing events

were all against the guidelines in the way you understand them and cannot happen again in this form.

The praise rather seems to come from the local community which is not surprising.

Show me a link of a Hungarian rowing event where the event was meeting for 30 minutes at the starting point.

Side comment: The guy from Hungary has no chances at all. Most geocachers from Hungary do not even know the blog and for many writing argumentive things in in

English is pretty hard and I doubt that they have someone at Groundspeak who reads Hungarian (which is very difficult).

Edited March 12, 2015 by cezanne

3.1k · March 12, 2015

Groundspeak celebrates innovation and creative events--even ROWING EVENTS!

Do they? It appears to me that it refers to a nominee for Geocacher of the Month and those rowing events

were all against the guidelines in the way you understand them and cannot happen again in this form.

The praise rather seems to come from the local community which is not surprising.

Show me a link of a Hungarian rowing event where the event was meeting for 30 minutes at the starting point.

Well the, if you think this is deplorable recognition, leave your comments on the nomination that this person is getting credit for posting Events which are against the guidelines.

That's what happened to the blog post about the desert buried caches--people started calling attention to the "buried" guideline, and Groundspeak had to walk it back. They even clarified the guideline, and someone (if memory serves) event made public comment about the exception granted (they're allowed to do that...as ill-advised as that might be for "copy-cat" issues) and clarification of the guidelines.

Event today there is an active debate about "what is buried", even though Groundspeak made it even more clear what that means.

So here Groundspeak has clarified what Event Caches are, and you're here trying to argue against it. This is no different a case. Groundspeak has found that they needed to clarify even more what "buried" meant, just as they felt a need to clarify what an official "event" is.

Edit to add:

And you then recognize the "regionality" of inconsistent application of the guidelines! If you see that fact in this case, you understand how regional your beloved style of events were/are also against the guidelines!

Groundspeak has clarified, as I stated above in this box, many things about this game. This includes "buried" and "what constitutes a Groundspeak Geocaching.com Event Cache".

Edited March 12, 2015 by NeverSummer

6.8k · March 12, 2015

Well the, if you think this is deplorable recognition, leave your comments on the nomination that this person is getting credit for posting Events which are against the guidelines.

No, I will not. It was in any case not the fault of that person. He believed like myself and also the acting reviewers that the events are within the guidelines.

It was you that claimed that they never have been.

In any case, regardless of happened back then, such events most probably will not be published from now on in Hungary thought I'm not sure about it as the reviewer is more lenient.

I think it's a great loss for the community that such events get lost.

7.4k · March 12, 2015

Side note: I really wonder why they meanwhile use so many side communication channels, facebook, blog etc

Precisely because geocachers are a diverse group of people and they want to engage them in the different channels they might use.

Showcasing examples of geocachers doing certain things doesn't mean that those are the only thing geocachers are allowed or expected to do.

4.8k · March 12, 2015

I would not even manage a single obstacle, not even with the greatest help ever.

My direct experience tells me otherwise. While waiting for a couple members of my team at one of the aid stations, lo and behold, up hobbles a gentleman with two arm crutches. He fell into conversation with others in his group, who praised his ability on the rope obstacles (one of the obstacles I failed at). Turns out he had severe muscular dystrophy, and had suffered from the disease since childhood. The obstacles he couldn't manage (which turned out to be very few), he had help from his large extended family of team members (a very popular group in the U.S. under the team name Weebly).

Your imagination is your only limitation.

3.1k · March 12, 2015

Well the, if you think this is deplorable recognition, leave your comments on the nomination that this person is getting credit for posting Events which are against the guidelines.

No, I will not. It was in any case not the fault of that person. He believed like myself and also the acting reviewers that the events are within the guidelines.

It was you that claimed that they never have been.

In any case, regardless of happened back then, such events most probably will not be published from now on in Hungary thought I'm not sure about it as the reviewer is more lenient.

I think it's a great loss for the community that such events get lost.

A moment of silence, then, for the loss. :tired:

6.8k · March 12, 2015

Side note: I really wonder why they meanwhile use so many side communication channels, facebook, blog etc

Precisely because geocachers are a diverse group of people and they want to engage them in the different channels they might use.

Yes, but they stopped to use more traditional channels for certain type of feedback.

14k · March 12, 2015

Wait...so in the last additional page since I posted last night (10 hours ago!), I've learned that I can't have a pizza eating event?

But you can still have a calzone eating event. You can provide a knife to all the participants so they can cut open their calzone and unfold it so that it looks like a pizza. You might want to screen the "will attend" list to make sure there aren't going to be any combative participants as passing around a knife could result in things getting ugly.

14k · March 12, 2015

Well the, if you think this is deplorable recognition, leave your comments on the nomination that this person is getting credit for posting Events which are against the guidelines.

No, I will not. It was in any case not the fault of that person. He believed like myself and also the acting reviewers that the events are within the guidelines.

It was you that claimed that they never have been.

In any case, regardless of happened back then, such events most probably will not be published from now on in Hungary thought I'm not sure about it as the reviewer is more lenient.

I think it's a great loss for the community that such events get lost.

A moment of silence, then, for the loss.

Okay

That's enough silence, now let's party! [checking out what events are coming up using the new search interface]

2k · March 12, 2015

Events that appear to be like what you want, but probably won't pass muster with you, although I think there's one that's right up your alley.

This one.

This one. Not one hike but two hikes offered.

This one.

This one. Interesting concept.

Edited March 12, 2015 by coachstahly

7.4k · March 12, 2015

Side note: I really wonder why they meanwhile use so many side communication channels, facebook, blog etc

Precisely because geocachers are a diverse group of people and they want to engage them in the different channels they might use.

Yes, but they stopped to use more traditional channels for certain type of feedback.

I have a hard time trying to imagine what you think is a "traditional" channel for feedback for something that has only existed for 15 years. No, I imagine mailing them a stern letter isn't the best way to give them feedback.

3.1k · March 12, 2015

Events that appear to be like what you want, but probably won't pass muster with you, although I think there's one that's right up your alley.

This one.

This one. Another one similar to what you're looking for (I think).

This one.

This one.

This one

This one.

This one.

This one

This one.

This one.

This one.

This one.

This one. Not one hike but two hikes offered.

This one.

This one.

This one. Interesting concept.

This one. This sounds exactly like what you're looking for.

This one. Talk about a plethora of events! This has it all.

Comprehensive!

Well done!

March 12, 2015

Wait...so in the last additional page since I posted last night (10 hours ago!), I've learned that I can't have a pizza eating event?

But you can still have a calzone eating event. You can provide a knife to all the participants so they can cut open their calzone and unfold it so that it looks like a pizza. You might want to screen the "will attend" list to make sure there aren't going to be any combative participants as passing around a knife could result in things getting ugly.

All this talk about food and pizza and calzones is making me hungry, even though I just ate about 2 hours ago. Maybe the wife and I will go out tonight. Maybe we'll invite some friends. Pizza, Calzones, and Beers with the Furrballs. I bet we'll have a blast. And we won't even need to get an "official event" smiley to do that.

2k · March 12, 2015

I'm pretty sure he could have his rowing event as it's listed if he extended the time to 30 minutes.

4.8k · March 12, 2015

Events that appear to be like what you want, but probably won't pass muster with you, although I think there's one that's right up your alley.

To be fair to cezanne, you should limit your list to Events Published after 2/18/15, the date the change went live. I just browsed a few of your examples and they appeared to be Published prior to the change.

2k · March 12, 2015

Comprehensive!

Well done!

What's somewhat funny is that i only looked at English language events on weekends through April. Who know how many others there might be?

3.1k · March 12, 2015

This one. This sounds exactly like what you're looking for.

This event is owned by the OP. I've inquired with Blue Rajah for how it meets the criteria, as it doesn't seem to list that the event takes place at the coordinates for the minimum 30 minutes. But, it should be noted that this event was published before the new guidelines were rolled out...

6.8k · March 12, 2015

Events that appear to be like what you want, but probably won't pass muster with you, although I think there's one that's right up your alley.

I looked at some. They look nice and did not have many attendants, but this is probably because there are fewer cacher and the distance to a city is larger.

If a event takes place in or close my home town or in or close to Vienna, and it has a set up as those example events, it would end up as a quite different

experience.

You wrote that you do not understand the host of the ice skating event. If she moves away from gc.com she will have hardly any visits from those who

do not come for ice skating. In the examples you provided this seem to work automatically despite the chosen setup. Around here it does not work like that.

If people come across a 1/1 event which is not remote they treat it in the same way than a meet and greet at the main square. Go there, get the point, chat a bit, leave.

3.1k · March 12, 2015

Events that appear to be like what you want, but probably won't pass muster with you, although I think there's one that's right up your alley.

I looked at some. They look nice and did not have many attendants, but this is probably because there are fewer cacher and the distance to a city is larger.

If a event takes place in or close my home town or in or close to Vienna, and it has a set up as those example events, it would end up as a quite different

experience.

You wrote that you do not understand the host of the ice skating event. If she moves away from gc.com she will have hardly any visits from those who

do not come for ice skating. In the examples you provided this seem to work automatically despite the chosen setup. Around here it does not work like that.

If people come across a 1/1 event which is not remote they treat it in the same way than a meet and greet at the main square. Go there, get the point, chat a bit, leave.

So they don't bother to read? Even if an event has a clear name such as "Hike to Summit Peak"?!

6.8k · March 12, 2015

Events that appear to be like what you want, but probably won't pass muster with you, although I think there's one that's right up your alley.

To be fair to cezanne, you should limit your list to Events Published after 2/18/15, the date the change went live. I just browsed a few of your examples and they appeared to be Published prior to the change.

I have no issues with the list. It just demonstrates what I have been aware before as well. That such events are more common in other parts of the world and also that they work better there without ending up as something they have not been planned for. That's both related to the number of cachers and also the area where the events take place.

But anyway, if the new seach tool stays, it will become very tiresome to search for events anyway and maybe impossible at some point. So maybe it's a moot issue anyway, but I did not know before yesterday night.

Edited March 12, 2015 by cezanne

3.1k · March 12, 2015

Events that appear to be like what you want, but probably won't pass muster with you, although I think there's one that's right up your alley.

To be fair to cezanne, you should limit your list to Events Published after 2/18/15, the date the change went live. I just browsed a few of your examples and they appeared to be Published prior to the change.

I have no issues with the list. It just demonstrates what I have been aware before as well. That such events are more common in other parts of the world and also that they work better there without ending up as something they have not been planned for. That's both related to the number of cachers and also the area where the events take place.

But anyway, if the new seach tool stays, it will become very tiresome to search for events anyway and maybe impossible at some point. So maybe it's a moot issue anyway, but I did not know before yesterday night.

So you admit that it is possible to have them as you like! Good! The problem seems to be how you describe those in your region. They either care more about the rating (they don't bother with a hike or skating event unless it has a higher T rating, apparently?), or they just don't read the description--they don't care what the event IS...just what it gets them for being there--a rating they wish for. (As you stated clearly in previous pages)

This event, especially, seems to work just fine for what you want, and was published after the Guideline clarification.

Satisfied?!

Hiking Events

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