Hiking Events

[+NeverSummer]

Geocaching events are intended to be social gatherings, available and accessible to everyone regardless of their abilities.

 

I guess that rules out having the event during the 30-minute lunch break at the summit, unless said summit is T1 accessible. Back to beer and pizza I'm afraid.

Test that theory!

 

I'll guess that you can have that event still. I don't know if Groundspeak has overtly stated that all events must be 1/1 or 1/1.5...

[+barefootjeff]

Geocaching events are intended to be social gatherings, available and accessible to everyone regardless of their abilities.

 

I guess that rules out having the event during the 30-minute lunch break at the summit, unless said summit is T1 accessible. Back to beer and pizza I'm afraid.

Test that theory!

 

I'll guess that you can have that event still. I don't know if Groundspeak has overtly stated that all events must be 1/1 or 1/1.5...

 

But isn't that what "accessible to everyone" means? Or does "everyone" exclude those in wheelchairs?

[+Ambrosia]

My other question would be if the hike (or other moving part) could still take place during the stated event time period, if people still stayed at the event coordinates. Example: a lot of my rafting events have attendees who stay at the event coords where the bbq takes place, while some people leave from there, raft, and then come back. The actual event still takes place for several hours at the coords while some people leave in the middle.

[+NeverSummer]

Geocaching events are intended to be social gatherings, available and accessible to everyone regardless of their abilities.

 

I guess that rules out having the event during the 30-minute lunch break at the summit, unless said summit is T1 accessible. Back to beer and pizza I'm afraid.

Test that theory!

 

I'll guess that you can have that event still. I don't know if Groundspeak has overtly stated that all events must be 1/1 or 1/1.5...

 

But isn't that what "accessible to everyone" means? Or does "everyone" exclude those in wheelchairs?

Again, this is a case that would be best handled by an actual cache submission.

 

Someone should place one, and then let us know how it goes.

[+NeverSummer]

My other question would be if the hike (or other moving part) could still take place during the stated event time period, if people still stayed at the event coordinates. Example: a lot of my rafting events have attendees who stay at the event coords where the bbq takes place, while some people leave from there, raft, and then come back. The actual event still takes place for several hours at the coords while some people leave in the middle.

I'd be willing to bet that this could get published, so long as you call out that fact clearly in the description.

 

Then it becomes are good example of "additional activities" and "additional waypoints" for those activities.

[knowschad]

Previously you could without any problems write something like

 

AWe start to meet from 9:00 on and will head for a hike at 9:30.

Come prepared for a hike of 5 hours.

 

Now you have to write in this setting

BStart of event: 9:00

End of event : 9:30

 

and it is just tolerated to mention that a hike will take place thereafter.

 

How is it that you are so certain of this? Have you yet tried? Every time somebody asks you to actually test your theories out by creating an event, you ignore them.

To clarify, the language that was recommended to me was the A option, with it a little more clear that the 30 minutes you've called out are the "meet and greet" social part of the event as required by Groundspeak. You can mention the hike, but the language for the duration of the event needs to be called out apart from the hike itself, as in A+ a little more clarificaton. So yes, it's a bit like A+B in what you've described.

 

What is great is that you're still able to have a hike! Yahoo! Case closed, Mods?

 

Yes, I saw your more recent posts and your own attempt to set up such an event. I tip my cap to you for all the hard work and patience that you have shown in this and the related threads. I was shocked to see you get a reprimand from a moderator in this very thread. You have been doing the footwork that I would have expected them to do! And you handled that little handslap with grace. You are a pleasure to have on this forum.

[knowschad]

Geocaching events are intended to be social gatherings, available and accessible to everyone regardless of their abilities.

 

I guess that rules out having the event during the 30-minute lunch break at the summit, unless said summit is T1 accessible. Back to beer and pizza I'm afraid.

 

Yes, based on what was said, I don't see how any event can ever be higher than a T1, if the purpose is to not exclude anyone at all.

[+Greatland Reviewer]

My other question would be if the hike (or other moving part) could still take place during the stated event time period, if people still stayed at the event coordinates. Example: a lot of my rafting events have attendees who stay at the event coords where the bbq takes place, while some people leave from there, raft, and then come back. The actual event still takes place for several hours at the coords while some people leave in the middle.

Seems reasonable since at least a portion of the event stays at the posted requirements during the entire posted time. I see this model working for events that feature hunts for temporary caches, scavenger hunts, or other contests such as featured at the Texas Challenge Mega this weekend. Edited March 14, 2015 by Greatland Reviewer

[+Ambrosia]

My other question would be if the hike (or other moving part) could still take place during the stated event time period, if people still stayed at the event coordinates. Example: a lot of my rafting events have attendees who stay at the event coords where the bbq takes place, while some people leave from there, raft, and then come back. The actual event still takes place for several hours at the coords while some people leave in the middle.

I'd be willing to bet that this could get published, so long as you call out that fact clearly in the description.

 

Then it becomes are good example of "additional activities" and "additional waypoints" for those activities.

Yes, it would make sense that it would just be an optional activity taking place during the regular event. I think it would only be a problem if everyone picked up and left the event coordinates, turning it into a moving event.

[+Ambrosia]

My other question would be if the hike (or other moving part) could still take place during the stated event time period, if people still stayed at the event coordinates. Example: a lot of my rafting events have attendees who stay at the event coords where the bbq takes place, while some people leave from there, raft, and then come back. The actual event still takes place for several hours at the coords while some people leave in the middle.

Seems reasonable since at least a portion of the event stays at the posted requirements during the entire posted time. I see this model working for events that feature hunts for temporary caches, scavenger hunts, or other contests such as featured at the Texas Challenge Mega this weekend.

 

The Block Party is another good example. The Block Party takes place from 11-5pm, and the "Activity" called The Block Party Adventure takes place at locations around the neighborhood of the Block Party from 11:10-5pm.

[knowschad]

 

 

The Block Party is another good example. The Block Party takes place from 11-5pm, and the "Activity" called The Block Party Adventure takes place at locations around the neighborhood of the Block Party from 11:10-5pm.

I don't get that one. Only 10 minutes at the posted coordinates for the event? Do you understand enough to explain it to me?

[+Ambrosia]

 

 

The Block Party is another good example. The Block Party takes place from 11-5pm, and the "Activity" called The Block Party Adventure takes place at locations around the neighborhood of the Block Party from 11:10-5pm.

I don't get that one. Only 10 minutes at the posted coordinates for the event? Do you understand enough to explain it to me?

The official event is 6 hours long. I assume that they put 11:10 there because there is a group photo that happens right at the beginning of the event. They probably want as many people as possible to stay for the group picture before they start wandering about.

[knowschad]

 

The Block Party is another good example. The Block Party takes place from 11-5pm, and the "Activity" called The Block Party Adventure takes place at locations around the neighborhood of the Block Party from 11:10-5pm.

I don't get that one. Only 10 minutes at the posted coordinates for the event? Do you understand enough to explain it to me?

The official event is 6 hours long. I assume that they put 11:10 there because there is a group photo that happens right at the beginning of the event. They probably want as many people as possible to stay for the group picture before they start wandering about.

 

"Wandering about"... as in, 'hiking"?

 

That may sound slightly snarky, but not my intention. But seriously... "locations around the neighborhood"... isn't that analogous to a hike? How big is "the neighborhood"? How far from GZ? This whole thing sounds very fuzzy to me, and from what I'm reading, reviewers are equally confused.

[+Ambrosia]

 

The Block Party is another good example. The Block Party takes place from 11-5pm, and the "Activity" called The Block Party Adventure takes place at locations around the neighborhood of the Block Party from 11:10-5pm.

I don't get that one. Only 10 minutes at the posted coordinates for the event? Do you understand enough to explain it to me?

The official event is 6 hours long. I assume that they put 11:10 there because there is a group photo that happens right at the beginning of the event. They probably want as many people as possible to stay for the group picture before they start wandering about.

 

"Wandering about"... as in, 'hiking"?

 

That may sound slightly snarky, but not my intention. But seriously... "locations around the neighborhood"... isn't that analogous to a hike? How big is "the neighborhood"? How far from GZ? This whole thing sounds very fuzzy to me, and from what I'm reading, reviewers are equally confused.

And that's why I was saying that it would seem to make sense that there is a difference between everyone at the event taking off for a "hike" (or activity), essentially turning it into a moving event, vs. only some people leaving for an activity while others stay at the event area. The event is still happening in the latter case.

[knowschad]

 

The Block Party is another good example. The Block Party takes place from 11-5pm, and the "Activity" called The Block Party Adventure takes place at locations around the neighborhood of the Block Party from 11:10-5pm.

I don't get that one. Only 10 minutes at the posted coordinates for the event? Do you understand enough to explain it to me?

The official event is 6 hours long. I assume that they put 11:10 there because there is a group photo that happens right at the beginning of the event. They probably want as many people as possible to stay for the group picture before they start wandering about.

 

"Wandering about"... as in, 'hiking"?

 

That may sound slightly snarky, but not my intention. But seriously... "locations around the neighborhood"... isn't that analogous to a hike? How big is "the neighborhood"? How far from GZ? This whole thing sounds very fuzzy to me, and from what I'm reading, reviewers are equally confused.

And that's why I was saying that it would seem to make sense that there is a difference between everyone at the event taking off for a "hike" (or activity), essentially turning it into a moving event, vs. only some people leaving for an activity while others stay at the event area. The event is still happening in the latter case.

 

So, if you had an event that including a hike as a part of the entertainment, but not everybody that showed up wanted to hike but instead hang around and roast hot-dogs and drink beer, then it could be listed as the block party event?

 

Fuzzy. Very fuzzy.

[+thebruce0]

Ok, a few things to add.

 

1. The appeals' response to this seems to be perfectly in line with how I understood the guidelines. ie, saying "We're meeting for a hike, meet at 9am and we'll head off at 9:30 am" may meet the rules, but not the spirit of the rules - that the event cannot be about the hike. The event is about the period of time at the posted coordinates with the hike optional. Thus why I always worded it something along the lines of "Meet & greet from 9-9:30am, when a hike will take place. Hike is not required to attend the event, but you're welcome to join."

 

2. BBQ & rafting - yep, as long as the "event" BBQ remains at the posted coordinates for the duration of the listing, then additional side activities - static or moving - can take place as optional things to do, including rafting or a hike. That's always how I understood the guidelines. This is how I always read the Block Party events (which, btw, are Groundspeak's own events, so they're perfectly within their rights to make exceptions for themselves if they see fit, much like decisions about advertising in their own cache/event listings, eg)

 

3. THIS, however, is a new thing that has me raising a flag of concern:

Geocaching events are intended to be social gatherings, available and accessible to everyone regardless of their abilities.

This sounds like Groundspeak is requiring that Event Caches can no longer be listed as anything but 1/1, which means that hilltop or mid-hike, or mid-excursion, or mid-lake float events would all now be disallowed from publishing.

IF Groundspeak does indeed now require ALL events to be rated 1 terrain, then I'll cede my position, that a] the guidelines aren't clear enough and b] they are tightening the rules much further than I gathered. But something tells me that's not the case... nonetheless, flag raised.

Edited March 14, 2015 by thebruce0

[+Touchstone]

Geocaching events are intended to be social gatherings, available and accessible to everyone regardless of their abilities.

 

I guess I focus on a different part of the message (i.e. it doesn't say "required"), and I don't see anywhere in the Guidelines that support your concern. I kind of doubt they'll start rejecting Event submissions that aren't ADA certified. It would be much easier to just remove the +1 from your stats IMO.

[cezanne]

The "Final response on the matter" from Appeals, this afternoon:

Geocaching events are intended to be social gatherings, available and accessible to everyone regardless of their abilities. You can have a hike afterward, but the hike cannot be the event.

 

Thanks for posting it. This however confirms what I said from the beginning.

Having a hike after the event is something not even Groundspeak can forbid.

 

The reply above essentially means: If you want to have a hiking event and not a meet and greet, do it outside of geocaching.com.

[cezanne]

 

The skating event could still happen, as the rink is likely within "error" of coordinates listed, and would go for more than 30 minutes. I

 

First, there is no real rink - the area covers a larger area of an urban park.

Second, as there is an entrance fee the coordinates have to point to the outside anyway.

Third, it is not about whether the event could happen, but whether it will happen again on gc.com under those

premises and the answer is no and that's a good decision. Those who want to organize a meet and greet in front of

a skating area, are free to do so. Those who want to have an ice skating event, will take recourse to alternative ways of

hosting it without using gc.com and they do the right thing in my opinion.

 

Of course the guidelines have to be respected, but they do not say that events need to be organized via gc.com.

This solution has disadvantages, but is much better than the meet and greet solution if one does not want to host a meet and greet event.

Edited March 14, 2015 by cezanne

[cezanne]

She then went on to say that it is not a loss for gc.com if events like the ice skating event and some hiking events are not hosted any longer on gc.com because they are not related to geocaching. That's why I asked my question.

 

No, actually, I think there are many wonderful examples of geocaching events that encompass all sorts of activities like pizza eating, hiking, skating, etc.

 

I just don't think it's a loss if someone who has no interest in geocaching chooses to take their event elsewhere.

 

Where did you take the no interest in geocaching from?

 

To me, it really looks like this is all sour grapes from people who are just using the "event cache" to drum up participants for whatever thing they feel like doing with a group. That's not a statement about the activities at these events. It's a statement about the more general purpose of the event.

 

I happen to disagree heavily. The main reason why I like active events is that it provides the best offer for me with respect to combining physical activity which is my main target in my spare time with meeting other cachers and talking to them. A 30 minutes event is way too short from my perspective - if I have 5 hours at my disposition I want to use them actively and not with spending 5 hours at one location.

This variant provides me with 5 hours where socializing can happen, but also all the time is spent actively.

 

The more general purpose of an event in my opinion is socializing and it seems weird to me to prescribe to people that the socializing during events has to be happen at one location.

[+narcissa]

A 30 minutes event is way too short from my perspective - if I have 5 hours at my disposition I want to use them actively and not with spending 5 hours at one location.

 

So, as discussed numerous times, get over your philosophical issue with the definition of event, have the 30 minutes as a meet-and-greet, and then go on a five hour hike.

[cezanne]

A 30 minutes event is way too short from my perspective - if I have 5 hours at my disposition I want to use them actively and not with spending 5 hours at one location.

 

So, as discussed numerous times, get over your philosophical issue with the definition of event, have the 30 minutes as a meet-and-greet, and then go on a five hour hike.

 

I do not see it as a philosophical issue. Tell me why someone who wants to have a hiking event, an ice skating event etc should turn it into a 30 minutes meet a greet on geocaching.com. For those who do not care about smileys, there is no real motivation. An event on gc.com is more visible, but at the same time one attracts an additional target group one might not be interested in when offering an active event. So for example for an ice skating event you might end up with 2/3 of the participants only attend the meet and greet part. If the idea is to offer a meet and greet event, then the entrance of a ice skating event is not the best choice and one should go for an event much longer than 30 minutes. The workaround in my opinion is neither fish nor meat and does not have any advantages except the visibility.

[+thebruce0]

Tell me why someone who wants to have a hiking event, an ice skating event etc should turn it into a 30 minutes meet a greet on geocaching.com.

They. Don't. Have. To.

1) They can do a 30 minute meet'n'greet followed by skating or a hike, if they want.

2) They can do an event all day where skating can take place, or a hike can take place. --> As long as there is something happening at the coordinates all day. Because the event cannot be about (cannot require participation in) such activities.

[+GeoLog81]

 

I do not see it as a philosophical issue. Tell me why someone who wants to have a hiking event, an ice skating event etc should turn it into a 30 minutes meet a greet on geocaching.com. For those who do not care about smileys, there is no real motivation.

 

According to your profile, you're a member since 13 years. In that time, you've participated in 26 events (2 a year!) and you haven't hosted any single one.

 

It seems you aren't interested in both participating and hosting geocaching events. So why you're so persistent about criticizing something you don't care to use?

 

At the begin, I've thought, this discussion is about some real issues. Apparently it's not the case.

[cezanne]

Tell me why someone who wants to have a hiking event, an ice skating event etc should turn it into a 30 minutes meet a greet on geocaching.com.

They. Don't. Have. To.

1) They can do a 30 minute meet'n'greet followed by skating or a hike, if they want.

2) They can do an event all day where skating can take place, or a hike can take place. --> As long as there is something happening at the coordinates all day. Because the event cannot be about (cannot require participation in) such activities.

 

If one assumes (what I do) that the event host wants to take part in the activity too and we are not talking about events with a kind of registration desk, then 2) does not work.

 

Your last statement is no argument for why the hike cannot be part of the event as one cannot require that the participants stay during the meet and greet either. It's just an arbitrary requirement made by Groundspeak.

[cezanne]

 

I do not see it as a philosophical issue. Tell me why someone who wants to have a hiking event, an ice skating event etc should turn it into a 30 minutes meet a greet on geocaching.com. For those who do not care about smileys, there is no real motivation.

 

According to your profile, you're a member since 13 years. In that time, you've participated in 26 events (2 a year!) and you haven't hosted any single one.

 

It seems you aren't interested in both participating and hosting geocaching events. So why you're so persistent about criticizing something you don't care to use?

 

I have explained before that others are doing a better job in hosting events I enjoy. I prefer to participate in active events and their number gets smaller and smaller. My interest to sit in a smoky, crowded place is zero. If I had not joined a friend for an event several times (BTW: I attended 27, but have a backlog in logging of 3 days), my number of attended events would have been even smaller.

 

Among the events I enjoyed the most none of that type will be hold again. All these event hosts got frustrated by the stance of Groundspeak (and some also due to how geocaching devolved in general). I have not participated in a single event I enjoyed that still could be done in the way it has be done. So, yes indeed this is a real issue.

 

As to the 2 per year average. I have written before that the early cachers in my country including myself

considered events as something special. For example in my home town we had a regular meeting about every month that was not organized via gc.com but via a mailing list (back then possible as the community was small). We reserved events for the special things. It'a a bit like that one will not have a special festive meal (like for Thanksgiving in the US) every week.

 

Moreover, the regular meet and greet event in my home town until 2014 followed the policy that even if one attends that event 5 or 6 times a year, one only writes a single attended log per year while in other regions for each such event a new listing has been published. I also need to mention that I always considered that (not having an event for each meeting) the right way to go provided that one goes the way via Groundspeak at all. Maybe this makes you understand why the workaround to organize events where the event is staying for 30 minutes at some place and then moving onwards outside of the event collides with nearly all what an event means to me and others with a similar background.

 

Somehow it's a somewhat sarcastic situation that back when we organized the ordinary geocacher gathering which I compare with 0815 glas stones of no special appeal outside of gc.com and kept events for special things (the jewels) and no the way to go is the other way round: Have the jewels outside and have the regular ordinary routine on gc.com. Of course if Groundspeak wants to have it way, it is to be respected. I do think however that it is a loss.

 

BTW: How many events took you part in where you stayed for at least 4 hours and almost everyone else did so as well?

(Do not count mega events). Those events that are conceived to last up to one hour (even if some might stay longer) do not fulfill my requirements for a decent event at all.

 

To sum up, comparing the number of attended logs does not make too much sense anyhow. In order to obtain a fair evaluation you would have to look at the proportion of events that appealed to me available and those I participated in. It's clear anyway that most events meanwhile are meet and greets at restaurants, coffee houses etc. I never denied the fact that I'm interested in a small subgroup of events, but that should not mean a need to forbid them.

 

The way for the future to go will be simply do not use geocaching.com at all for activities like skating, hiking etc which I regard as a loss and as cutting down the diversity of events on gc.com considerably.

 

Those who wish to go for meet and greets, will not win anything if all events on gc.com have to be that style. Some events that took place previously, will not take place in the future. The ice skating example I mentioned, is one such example.

Edited March 15, 2015 by cezanne

[+coachstahly]

 

I happen to disagree heavily. The main reason why I like active events is that it provides the best offer for me with respect to combining physical activity which is my main target in my spare time with meeting other cachers and talking to them. A 30 minutes event is way too short from my perspective - if I have 5 hours at my disposition I want to use them actively and not with spending 5 hours at one location.

This variant provides me with 5 hours where socializing can happen, but also all the time is spent actively.

 

The more general purpose of an event in my opinion is socializing and it seems weird to me to prescribe to people that the socializing during events has to be happen at one location.

So go on the 10K hike that happens right after the event and show up in the last couple minutes of the event so that way you won't have to meet with the other cachers and talk with them. Instead you can socialize with those that are going on the hike and share your love of hiking instead of those who are just there to log an attended and have no interest hiking. You're going to have to be there early anyway, just to make sure you leave with the group at the specified departure time.

 

I fail to see how this insistence you have about the event and hike being linked would diminish the hike or prevent you from going on the hike. The event was created in order to gather geocachers who want to go on a hike together, especially those events that state, "Feel free to join us after this short meet and greet as we go on a 10 K hike (5 up and 5 back down) that will last approximately 5 hours. There might even be a cache or two along the way." Yes, it's outside of the official event. You're still going hiking and getting the exercise you so desire. You can still socialize ALL 5 HOURS with the hikers (who also happen to be geocachers) just like you always have AND it won't be at one single location the entire time. The ONLY difference we (ALL of us) see is that it's now not part of the event. SO WHAT that it's not part of the event. You can still do all those things you used to be able to do EXCEPT get Groundspeak's sanction that the hike is part of the event. You continue to reinforce my beliefs how it's all about the smiley and not about the hike. If it were, you'd be out hiking.

[+coachstahly]

 

If one assumes (what I do) that the event host wants to take part in the activity too and we are not talking about events with a kind of registration desk, then 2) does not work.

So the host gets someone else to stay at GZ. It doesn't HAVE to be the host at GZ, just someone affiliated with the event. Can you really not see that or are you arguing to argue?

 

 

Your last statement is no argument for why the hike cannot be part of the event as one cannot require that the participants stay during the meet and greet either. It's just an arbitrary requirement made by Groundspeak.

You don't have to stay for the entire time of ANY event to be able to log the event as attended. I agree that it's arbitrary, but not with the rest of your position.

Edited March 15, 2015 by coachstahly

[+coachstahly]

 

I do not see it as a philosophical issue. Tell me why someone who wants to have a hiking event, an ice skating event etc should turn it into a 30 minutes meet a greet on geocaching.com. For those who do not care about smileys, there is no real motivation. An event on gc.com is more visible, but at the same time one attracts an additional target group one might not be interested in when offering an active event. So for example for an ice skating event you might end up with 2/3 of the participants only attend the meet and greet part. If the idea is to offer a meet and greet event, then the entrance of a ice skating event is not the best choice and one should go for an event much longer than 30 minutes. The workaround in my opinion is neither fish nor meat and does not have any advantages except the visibility.

So if you're not interested in those that don't want to do the activity that follows, DON'T TALK TO THEM. That's also rather condescending on your part. If they don't ice skate, I'm not interested in meeting them. If they don't hike, I'm not interested in meeting them. If they don't eat pizza, I'm not interested in meeting them.

 

It almost sounds like you want to have events that exclude some types of geocachers (non-skaters, non-hikers, non-pizza eaters) from an event solely because they're opting not to participate in whatever activity that might follow. Unless I'm wrong, you've NEVER been able to have an event that excludes anyone.

[+coachstahly]

 

BTW: How many events took you part in where you stayed for at least 4 hours and almost everyone else did so as well?

(Do not count mega events). Those events that are conceived to last up to one hour (even if some might stay longer) do not fulfill my requirements for a decent event at all.

 

This one, which was my event. While most of the locals had already done the series (so had no need to stick around to do the hike), those that came from my area stayed the entire time. The others did some cool "gadget" caches and were there for at least two hours.

 

This one.

 

This one. However, it was only for a couple hours, but a group of about 6 of us stayed the entire time, freezing in the cold rain but enjoying each other's company.

 

This one. I was the EXCEPTION, as I had to leave. The others all stayed.

 

This one. Again, I was the exception as I was on a family vacation and couldn't stay the entire time.

 

This one. There was supposed to be kayaking/canoeing afterwards but the river was at a flood stage, so that ended up driving most people away. Those of us who attended made an entire day out of it.

 

This one. Even with all the rain, we managed to stick together for half the day.

 

This one. EVERYONE stuck around for this one!

 

This one. Again, I'll say that many people went their own ways, but they all stayed most of the day. I left about an hour before daylight ended and the lot where we met was still full.

 

This one. I left after 2 1/2 hours and it was still going strong.

 

This one.

 

This one.

 

This one. GREAT day out on the water.

 

This one.

 

This one.

 

This one.

 

This one. It was an event that occurred during the time a mega event was in the area.

 

This one. They couldn't get us to leave and we were also there at least an hour early too.

 

This one. I left after three hours and the party was in full swing.

 

This one. Although the flash mob was the impetus for going, they offered a behind the scenes tour of Churchill Downs that lasted just under three hours. About 20 of us were lucky enough to tag along.

 

This one. There most of the day, together and hiking.

 

This one.

[+GeoLog81]

@cezanne

 

So resuming, you have no interest in hosting event. You have almost no interest in attending events, since most of the events you've participated were organized via mailing lists. Yet you're persistent in criticizing the way the Groundspeak defines events.

 

Have you asked yourself, what's the logic there?

[cezanne]

 

So if you're not interested in those that don't want to do the activity that follows, DON'T TALK TO THEM. That's also rather condescending on your part. If they don't ice skate, I'm not interested in meeting them. If they don't hike, I'm not interested in meeting them. If they don't eat pizza, I'm not interested in meeting them.

 

I never talk to all participants of an event - that's not what my statement was about.

I'm not interested into stationary events for reasons I explained and I do not see why someone should be motivated to organize a 30 minutes meet and greet when the real intent is something else. There a thousands of events where no physical activities are involved.

 

It almost sounds like you want to have events that exclude some types of geocachers (non-skaters, non-hikers, non-pizza eaters) from an event solely because they're opting not to participate in whatever activity that might follow. Unless I'm wrong, you've NEVER been able to have an event that excludes anyone.

 

Of course the T=5* events on the water are exluding people so does every event in a restaurant which is not wheelchair accesible. I do not mind either of them as there enough events for everyone. I see no reason to turn every event in a stationary meet and greet and if that's the way Groundspeak wants to go, ok, but this does not provide a motivation to turn what used to be nice events in 30 minutes meet and greets. Even if only my friends showed up at such an event, it would not turn it in my eyes in something that fulfills my personal quality criteria for an event.

 

The difference between you and me is that for me the activity that follows is the event, and the event is not a meeting before the activity. As Groundspeak does not accept that format any longer, I see no reason to create artificial events before or after what is thought to be the event except for the situation when someone wants to use gc.com to announce the activities after or before the event. There is nothing wrong about that format if someone uses it because he/she wants to do that. Doing it only to satify the guidelines, is not very convincing.

[cezanne]

 

So resuming, you have no interest in hosting event. You have almost no interest in attending events, since most of the events you've participated were organized via mailing lists. Yet you're persistent in criticizing the way the Groundspeak defines events.

 

To clarify:

The meetings (personally I never saw them as geocaching events even though they took much longer than the average modern event) that have been hosted via mailing lists took place quite some time ago. I mentioned them to provide background information on the number of events I attended which is not comparable to your number.

 

I still have great interest in attending active events - I have no interest in meet and greets and in general no interest in short events.

 

As all the events I'm interested into cannot take place any longer on gc.com, I'd say that I'm heavily affected. For example, next year the ice skating event will not be hosted on gc.com and I doubt that I will get to know about it as I'm not a local and I'm also not a participant in Austria's main geocaching forum as it is a closed one.

 

I have no intent to visit an event every 2 months, 2-3 per year if they are special is about what I would have in mind. While those who like to attend meet and greets have a huge choice, there is almost nothing to choose from for me.

Edited March 15, 2015 by cezanne

[cezanne]

 

BTW: How many events took you part in where you stayed for at least 4 hours and almost everyone else did so as well?

(Do not count mega events). Those events that are conceived to last up to one hour (even if some might stay longer) do not fulfill my requirements for a decent event at all.

 

 

 

Thank you for your impressive list. It was a question soley dedicated to GeoLogic81. I have been aware that you attended several long events.

[cezanne]

 

So go on the 10K hike that happens right after the event and show up in the last couple minutes of the event so that way you won't have to meet with the other cachers and talk with them. Instead you can socialize with those that are going on the hike and share your love of hiking instead of those who are just there to log an attended and have no interest hiking. You're going to have to be there early anyway, just to make sure you leave with the group at the specified departure time.

 

Yes, of course I can do that, but what's the advantage an event host gets from listing the event on gc.com? The hike can take place also outside.

 

I fail to see how this insistence you have about the event and hike being linked would diminish the hike or prevent you from going on the hike.

 

I did not say so. I asked why should the event host be motivated to host an event on gc.com? The only reason can be to make it known to non locals, but it is questionable whether this will be important enough to make event hosts whose intent is not a meet a greet decide to host their event on gc.com?

 

You continue to reinforce my beliefs how it's all about the smiley and not about the hike. If it were, you'd be out hiking.

 

It is not about the smiley as I argued that what will happen is that the moving events are organized outside of geocaching.com.

 

My arguments have not been about me not being willing to take part in a hike that is organized in conjunction with a gc.com event.

 

I said that the motivation for event hosts who want to organize moving events and not meet and greets, there is only a very low motivation to organize their events via gc.com and that this is a loss to gc.com in my opinion.

 

There are many event hosts who would feel ashamed to list a 30 minutes (or 1 hour event) and so it definitely matters whether the hike/bike ride/train ride etc is recognized as part of the event.

Edited March 15, 2015 by cezanne

[+narcissa]

A 30 minutes event is way too short from my perspective - if I have 5 hours at my disposition I want to use them actively and not with spending 5 hours at one location.

 

So, as discussed numerous times, get over your philosophical issue with the definition of event, have the 30 minutes as a meet-and-greet, and then go on a five hour hike.

 

I do not see it as a philosophical issue. Tell me why someone who wants to have a hiking event, an ice skating event etc should turn it into a 30 minutes meet a greet on geocaching.com. For those who do not care about smileys, there is no real motivation. An event on gc.com is more visible, but at the same time one attracts an additional target group one might not be interested in when offering an active event. So for example for an ice skating event you might end up with 2/3 of the participants only attend the meet and greet part. If the idea is to offer a meet and greet event, then the entrance of a ice skating event is not the best choice and one should go for an event much longer than 30 minutes. The workaround in my opinion is neither fish nor meat and does not have any advantages except the visibility.

 

You don't need to. You can just invite people to do any of those activities without worrying about listing it on this site. Since you don't care about "smileys" anyway, what's the problem?

 

The rest of your comment is just blather about trying to control what other people do. Not relevant.

[+thebruce0]

There are many event hosts who would feel ashamed to list a 30 minutes (or 1 hour event) and so it definitely matters whether the hike/bike ride/train ride etc is recognized as part of the event.

 

As I can't bring myself to respond to the rest of the comment, I'll just respond to this: If there are event hosts who would feel ashamed to list a 30-60 minute event (with no qualification as to what that event may be, merely that it's 30-60 minutes) - I have zero sympathy if they no longer care to list events on geocaching.com. I wouldn't want them to host an event, and I probably wouldn't care to attend one if that's their attitude about Official Geocaching.com Events. It's insulting to people who enjoy events that may be under 60 minutes, it's self-righteous to take shame at such a vague standard, and clearly if they were to publish one, they wouldn't be putting nearly as much energy and passion into it as someone who actually cares about providing a fun, entertaining, informative event for the local community. Even one that's as short as 30 minutes.

Edited March 16, 2015 by thebruce0

[Keystone]

 

BTW: How many events took you part in where you stayed for at least 4 hours and almost everyone else did so as well?

(Do not count mega events). Those events that are conceived to last up to one hour (even if some might stay longer) do not fulfill my requirements for a decent event at all.

 

 

 

Thank you for your impressive list. It was a question soley dedicated to GeoLogic81. I have been aware that you attended several long events.

Private messages addressed to a single user are best handled by the Forum PM system or the Geocaching.com email system.

 

Under the forum guidelines:

7. Private discussions: Sometimes, a discussion thread strays off into a friendly dialogue or a heated debate among a very small number of users. For these exchanges, we ask that you please use the Private Message feature that is provided through the Groundspeak forums, or the Geocaching.com e-mail system. Public forum posts should be reserved for matters of interest to the general geocaching community.

We may fast be approaching the point where the discussion is of interest to a very small number of users, and not of interest to the general geocaching community -- if we have not yet passed that point. With the clarification having been provided by Geocaching HQ, this thread may be closed if it continues going in circles.

[cezanne]

Consider that I went out for an perfectly epic traditional cache. I chose the cache. I planned my route. It was a glorious day. I had a perfect length hike on the way to the cache. I saw beautiful plants and wildlife, and even took some pictures. I even happened to meet up with a friend as I was walking along. The search for the cache was not too long, just right, and the container and its contents were in good shape. I traded swag and signed the log and put it back. I found a different path back out, and found a secret vista. The sun was just above the horizon and gave a great view, and I took some more photos. I went home and logged about my experience.

 

When I logged about the experience -- did I only mention the two minutes of finding the cache and putting it back? No, I told you all about the great day I had on the way to and from the cache, shared my photos, my enjoyment.

 

I would do exactly the same as you, but for me the way to the traditional cache is part of the cache - physical caches are not containers for me, but only involve a container at the end.

 

 

Just like in the story above, the 'event cache' is the part that is listed. It lasts 30 minutes or more, and follows all the rules. It is not lame.

If I have an epic day, hiking and skating with the folks I talked to at the event cache, I am going to log about it, and that it was a great event.

 

The whole of the activity is the 'event'. The 30+ minutes at one designated time and place is the 'event cache'.

 

An event cache for me is the gathering of cachers to socialize. The unorganized route to the event location or back from it however nice it might be

is not part of the event cache if one follows Groundspeak's rules.

 

While it still makes perfect sense to hide a traditional, I see no motivation any longer to host an event cache which only exists due to the planned hike on geocaching.com.

 

 

 

It is not lame that there is a 30 minute window (event cache) at the beginning of an epic hike, because the whole of it, including the hike, represents the event.

The 30 minute window just makes sure that everyone has a chance to check in and share their enthusiasm, so no one gets accidentally left behind.

 

I do have the issue with the definition that the end of the window also ends the event cache.

 

If more than 50% of the participants do not take part in an activity, that's not any longer about making sure that noone is accidentally left behind. It's apparently about reducing event

caches to smilies and everything else has to happen outside, but then why bother using gc.com for events at all?

[+Ambrosia]

Consider that I went out for an perfectly epic traditional cache. I chose the cache. I planned my route. It was a glorious day. I had a perfect length hike on the way to the cache. I saw beautiful plants and wildlife, and even took some pictures. I even happened to meet up with a friend as I was walking along. The search for the cache was not too long, just right, and the container and its contents were in good shape. I traded swag and signed the log and put it back. I found a different path back out, and found a secret vista. The sun was just above the horizon and gave a great view, and I took some more photos. I went home and logged about my experience.

 

When I logged about the experience -- did I only mention the two minutes of finding the cache and putting it back? No, I told you all about the great day I had on the way to and from the cache, shared my photos, my enjoyment.

 

I would do exactly the same as you, but for me the way to the traditional cache is part of the cache - physical caches are not containers for me, but only involve a container at the end.

 

 

Just like in the story above, the 'event cache' is the part that is listed. It lasts 30 minutes or more, and follows all the rules. It is not lame.

If I have an epic day, hiking and skating with the folks I talked to at the event cache, I am going to log about it, and that it was a great event.

 

The whole of the activity is the 'event'. The 30+ minutes at one designated time and place is the 'event cache'.

 

An event cache for me is the gathering of cachers to socialize. The unorganized route to the event location or back from it however nice it might be

is not part of the event cache if one follows Groundspeak's rules.

 

While it still makes perfect sense to hide a traditional, I see no motivation any longer to host an event cache which only exists due to the planned hike on geocaching.com.

 

 

 

It is not lame that there is a 30 minute window (event cache) at the beginning of an epic hike, because the whole of it, including the hike, represents the event.

The 30 minute window just makes sure that everyone has a chance to check in and share their enthusiasm, so no one gets accidentally left behind.

 

I do have the issue with the definition that the end of the window also ends the event cache.

 

If more than 50% of the participants do not take part in an activity, that's not any longer about making sure that noone is accidentally left behind. It's apparently about reducing event

caches to smilies and everything else has to happen outside, but then why bother using gc.com for events at all?

Because earlier, you said that you might have 100 people go on a hike before, but that only 50% would go if the event was reduced to just a smilie in a parking lot. So, great! That means that you have 50 people going on a hike? What's wrong with that? Pretend the other 50 people don't exist (event-wise), and have a nice hike with the people who actually went to the event to hike. I'd not want to hike with people who don't like hiking, anyway.

[cezanne]

There are many event hosts who would feel ashamed to list a 30 minutes (or 1 hour event) and so it definitely matters whether the hike/bike ride/train ride etc is recognized as part of the event.

 

As I can't bring myself to respond to the rest of the comment, I'll just respond to this: If there are event hosts who would feel ashamed to list a 30-60 minute event (with no qualification as to what that event may be, merely that it's 30-60 minutes) - I have zero sympathy if they no longer care to list events on geocaching.com. I wouldn't want them to host an event, and I probably wouldn't care to attend one if that's their attitude about Official Geocaching.com Events. It's insulting to people who enjoy events that may be under 60 minutes, it's self-righteous to take shame at such a vague standard, and clearly if they were to publish one, they wouldn't be putting nearly as much energy and passion into it as someone who actually cares about providing a fun, entertaining, informative event for the local community. Even one that's as short as 30 minutes.

 

Why is it insulting to people who enjoy events that are under 60 minutes?

I did not say that those who host short events should feel ashamed. Nor did I say that someone who enjoys short events should feel ashamed. I also did not ask for a rule that events have to be longer than one hour.

 

Are there rules when I or others are allowed to feel ashamed? I feel ashamed in many situations and it's absurd to blame me for insulting others by feeling ashamed in situations where others do not feel ashamed or regard it as inappropriate that I feel ashamed.

For example, I feel ashamed because I cannot climb up trees. This is not to insult others who cannot climb up trees and do not feel ashamed about it.

Somehow it appears to me that it is you that wants to prescribe how others have to feel and not me.

 

There are cachers whom I like to meet and who even offered me to call them (they check their e-mails only very occasionally) if want to go on a hike with them for which I do not feel comfortable to go on my own. I have never done so and will never do so as I'm worried to disturb them at the wrong moment and I also then start a long debate with myself whether it is appropriate to prefer for that specific endeavour not to alone. I also never would ask them to join me on a hike to the event location. My only chance to meet them is within the organized event setting where the event is the event hike.

 

I explained the event background I'm coming from in detail. I cannot change the fact that I associate something special with events. I already have mentioned that we did not even handle 3 hour bimonthly to monthly meetings at a restaurant as gc.com event in the early years and reserved gc.com events for the special things that happen to take place maybe only 1-2 times per year and per region.

 

Where did you take it from that those who only want to host special events who last longer than 1 hour invest less energy and passion? I did not make a statement about the amount of passion invested by someone who deliberately hosts a short event. The issue here is being forced into a short event (cache) because it does not fit into a 5 hours hike to offer a 4 hours picnic, raffle etc if these activities are taking place one after the other and moreover, the target audiences are different.

 

Of course the minimum reasonable event duration will also depend on the number of expected participants. How do you handle 30 minutes events with 200 participants?

I do not even manage to talk to 5 people within this period in the way I'd like to do. I do not even manage to become aware of who is there in such a short period.

Others are faster or have other priorities.

Edited March 16, 2015 by cezanne

[cezanne]

Because earlier, you said that you might have 100 people go on a hike before, but that only 50% would go if the event was reduced to just a smilie in a parking lot. So, great! That means that you have 50 people going on a hike? What's wrong with that? Pretend the other 50 people don't exist (event-wise), and have a nice hike with the people who actually went to the event to hike. I'd not want to hike with people who don't like hiking, anyway.

 

There is nothing wrong with it. It just appears to make more sense and provide more flexibility to organize the hike outside of gc.com where one is not forced to add statements into the invitation that the

hike is optional etc (those who do not want to hike, will simply not come in the setting outside of gc.com).

If the hike is not seen as part of the geocaching event, then why register the event at all at gc.com? To provide additional options for smilies for the 50%?

 

Of course, I'm not saying that noone should organize hikes via listed events on gc.com. If the host feels comfortable with this approach or even wants to provide a meet and greet too, fine.

There is nothing bad about it. I just say that the motivation to host active events via gc.com for many cachers in my area has considerably been decreased by the changes and clarifications obtained here and from reviewer reactions.

Edited March 16, 2015 by cezanne

[+coachstahly]

 

Of course the T=5* events on the water are exluding people so does every event in a restaurant which is not wheelchair accesible. I do not mind either of them as there enough events for everyone. I see no reason to turn every event in a stationary meet and greet and if that's the way Groundspeak wants to go, ok, but this does not provide a motivation to turn what used to be nice events in 30 minutes meet and greets. Even if only my friends showed up at such an event, it would not turn it in my eyes in something that fulfills my personal quality criteria for an event.

 

The T 5 event is exclusionary only in the fact that a cacher might not have access to a boat to be able to join. That's why you see many events that mention rentals (without mentioning names of places) in the area so they can join in. As to a restaurant that doesn't have wheelchair access, that's on the restaurant. I understand many restaurants in Europe are in oder buildings where it's not feasible (I've been in many like that). In this day and age, as an event host, I'd try to make sure the restaurant was handicap accessible so as NOT to exclude those with wheelchairs.

[cezanne]

 

Of course the T=5* events on the water are exluding people so does every event in a restaurant which is not wheelchair accesible. I do not mind either of them as there enough events for everyone. I see no reason to turn every event in a stationary meet and greet and if that's the way Groundspeak wants to go, ok, but this does not provide a motivation to turn what used to be nice events in 30 minutes meet and greets. Even if only my friends showed up at such an event, it would not turn it in my eyes in something that fulfills my personal quality criteria for an event.

 

The T 5 event is exclusionary only in the fact that a cacher might not have access to a boat to be able to join.

That's why you see many events that mention rentals (without mentioning names of places) in the area so they can join in.

 

I did not say anything contrary. However, there are further restrictions too. One must be able to use the boat and dare that too.

 

In any case, if exlusionary is meant really strictly, then almost no event makes sense any longer.

Events where there is smoke also exclude some people.

Events where cats are present are not suited for those allergic against cats etc

 

 

In this day and age, as an event host, I'd try to make sure the restaurant was handicap accessible so as NOT to exclude those with wheelchairs.

 

Actually, I have not met a cacher in a wheelchair in my whole country. I believe the greater issue for such cachers would be that only very few caches are accessible to cachers in a wheelchair.

There are areas in public where offering handicapped access is much more important and where it still does not exist.

 

If you want to find a restaurant that is both large enough for a group with well over 50 people, offers good food and does not involve any steps (also not inside the restaurant and not as access to the toilettes is regarded), you will in many places in Europe end up with an empty set. So have no events is the option to go if you really want to have events for everyone.

 

 

I'd say it would be better to have a diversity of events and not trying to have events for everyone which in the end will not please many.

Edited March 16, 2015 by cezanne

[+cheech gang]

We may fast be approaching the point where the discussion is of interest to a very small number of users, and not of interest to the general geocaching community

 

This thread is like Blue Man Group. I really enjoyed watching them and would likely see them again. But if I were to sit through the show three or four times a day for a couple of weeks I think it would put me to sleep.

[+coachstahly]

 

There is nothing wrong with it. It just appears to make more sense and provide more flexibility to organize the hike outside of gc.com where one is not forced to add statements into the invitation that the hike is optional etc (those who do not want to hike, will simply not come in the setting outside of gc.com).

If the hike is not seen as part of the geocaching event, then why register the event at all at gc.com? To provide additional options for smilies for the 50%?

 

 

As far as listing the event on gc.com, you can opt to set it up in the way in which you've described, outside of the site, but you're excluding all new cachers who have no idea of how to figure out where to go and whom to contact. That's fine, but I still remember what it was like as a brand new cacher. I didn't know anyone, I had lots of questions, and I had NO way of knowing what cachers were doing outside of the official channels (email, FB, text, phone) because I didn't know any cachers or where they went (digitally) to set up things they were doing. It was SOLELY because of events that I was able to meet fellow cachers, get to know them, and find out about other official events as well as unofficial outings and the way in which they were set up. My favorite events ended up being the "active" type events and they still are. That didn't mean I didn't enjoy the restaurant events or flash mobs, or other shorter events. It just means the active ones (using your words) are ones I remember more because there was more involved. I was able to attend some of them due to more experienced cachers alerting me to them (at other events) and also because I ended up enjoying the events I attended and was more comfortable attending events where I didn't know the host personally.

 

This event is, and has been for as long as I can recall, set up in a manner that meets the current guidelines, with the exception of an end time. It's an event set up with a great hike that takes place right after the pop tart breakfast meet and greet. I've been fortunate enough to attend two of them and had a great time hiking afterwards with fellow cachers who live in an area I get to every once in a while. If I hadn't gone to my very first one, because it was listed as a meet and greet style event instead of a hiking event, I wouldn't have had the opportunity to meet the host and wouldn't have had the pleasure of working with him to do his cache the next day, with him in attendance and taking pictures. He contacted me, after my will attend log, that he was free the next day to tackle his multi. I don't go, because it's a meet and greet and not an active event, I don't hear from him and get the pleasure of talking to him about the early beginnings of geocaching and some of the great stories he has, both on the Trail Mix hike and on the hike to do his multi. THAT'S what I miss if I'm so insistent that the hike be part of the event and that's what I MIGHT miss if I don't go to events set up in this manner. I'm not willing to take that chance, solely because the event is listed as a meet and greet instead of a hiking event.

[+narcissa]

It just appears to make more sense and provide more flexibility to organize the hike outside of gc.com where one is not forced to add statements into the invitation that the

hike is optional etc (those who do not want to hike, will simply not come in the setting outside of gc.com).

If the hike is not seen as part of the geocaching event, then why register the event at all at gc.com?

 

Glad we've finally reached a consensus on this issue - sometimes, a hike is just a hike, and doesn't need to be a geocaching event.

[+thebruce0]

Why is it insulting to people who enjoy events that are under 60 minutes?

Because when you say you feel "ashamed", you are implying that those events are shameful. With no other reasoning except that they are under 60 minutes. Ludicrous, ridiculous, and insulting both to hosts who create amazing <60 minutes, and to people who enjoy such events.

Colourful language. Choose your words.

 

For example, I feel ashamed because I cannot climb up trees. This is not to insult others who cannot climb up trees and do not feel ashamed about it.

No, but to say you would be ashamed to hide a cache that requires climbing a tree - that is insulting to tree climb caches because you imply there is something shameful about the caches.

Additionally, the fact you can't climb trees is not shameful. Many can't. You shouldn't (let yourself) feel ashamed because of your thoughts about yourself.

 

Of course the minimum reasonable event duration will also depend on the number of expected participants. How do you handle 30 minutes events with 200 participants?

Let the host deal with that. Length and attendance have nothing to do with whether the event will be good or not.

[cezanne]

Why is it insulting to people who enjoy events that are under 60 minutes?

Because when you say you feel "ashamed", you are implying that those events are shameful. With no other reasoning except that they are under 60 minutes. Ludicrous, ridiculous, and insulting both to hosts who create amazing <60 minutes, and to people who enjoy such events.

Colourful language. Choose your words.

 

Actually, I had neither any intent to insult someone nor to use colourful language. I just wrote how I and some others feel. I have no better word for it. I of course was not intending to imply that short

events are shameful in their own right.

 

Additionally, the fact you can't climb trees is not shameful. Many can't. You shouldn't (let yourself) feel ashamed because of your thoughts about yourself.

 

I still feel that way regarding both tree climbing (and a lot of other things) and short events when it comes to me.

 

Of course the minimum reasonable event duration will also depend on the number of expected participants. How do you handle 30 minutes events with 200 participants?

Let the host deal with that. Length and attendance have nothing to do with whether the event will be good or not.

 

I only explained why there are people who would feel very uncomfortable with hosting short events. I'm not putting any constraint on the event duration. Groundspeak is doing so implicitely by

limiting event caches that involve a moving activity to typically a short meeting period. I did not ask for any constraint. Your answer just sounds as if I had asked for a rule that each

event should last two hours or more.

 

If it comes to me as an attendant. I cannot handle 30 minutes events with 200 participants. I do not even manage to talk to 5 in that time frame in the way I want to.

[cezanne]

It just appears to make more sense and provide more flexibility to organize the hike outside of gc.com where one is not forced to add statements into the invitation that the

hike is optional etc (those who do not want to hike, will simply not come in the setting outside of gc.com).

If the hike is not seen as part of the geocaching event, then why register the event at all at gc.com?

 

Glad we've finally reached a consensus on this issue - sometimes, a hike is just a hike, and doesn't need to be a geocaching event.

 

No concensus. I still regard it as geocaching event, but not one hosted on gc.com. Geocaching happens outside of gc.com too.

 

A 5 hours hike with geocachers who spend the hike to talk about geocaching comes my idea of a geocaching event much closer than a 30 minutes flash mob event.

Edited March 16, 2015 by cezanne