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Groundspeaks lays down some event time rules...


ArtieD
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Now, if we want to have those types of events as publishable, then we need to try to convince them to do that.
Exactly.

 

This thread seems to have evolved into a discussion between those who see the guidelines as they are and those who envision the guidelines as they would like them to be.

 

 

 

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Show me a single newly published example where the hike or the raft is part of the geocache event.

 

Please

 

And no, this is not a 'moving event'. It's publishable because it's not a 'moving event'.

 

I know there's going to be some reason why this is still not a sufficient answer to the question. I have to be done with cezanne... :tired:

 

The raft is not part of the geocaching event which takes place from 7pm to 8pm in your example.

It most certainly is part of the event. The event coordinates are on the water, and lasts for 1 hour. It's about the paddle, obviously. Can't you just admit it??

Edited by NeverSummer
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It most certainly is part of the event. The event coordinates are on the water, and lasts for 1 hour. It's about the paddle, obviously. Can't you just admit it??

 

Because during that hour no moving around can take place.

Ok. That's it. I'm about to unleash a string of curse-words just to get this thread closed. STOP BEING SO OBTUSE, Cezanne. You pick nits so much...and for what??

 

That event takes place on the water, requiring a paddle to the coordinates, where the Event Cache takes place for an hour. Assuredly, there will be an obvious presence of geocachers at the coordinates for that hour. And they'll likely mill about the lake some.

 

But the Event Cache takes place at the coordinates for at least the minimum required amount of time.

 

Please, you must see this to be true...and it speaks to your requests to "prove it could be published".

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> The raft is not part of the geocaching event which takes place from 7pm to 8pm in your example.

 

Yes. Yes it is.

 

But you need to stay at the posted coordinates within that time or not?

 

1. Who? The host? A delegate? The group?

2. The reviewer judged the posted coordinates and the event centered on the coordinates was sufficient to satisfy the requirements that the event takes place at the coordinates and someone will be there the entire time.

 

Now, if we want to have those types of events as publishable, then we need to try to convince them to do that.
Exactly.

 

This thread seems to have evolved into a discussion between those who see the guidelines as they are and those who envision the guidelines as they would like them to be.

 

Well, there's a difference between "I don't understand, please tell us why (over and over and over again)" and "Hey I have an idea" or "Hey sign this petition to take to Groundspeak" or "Hey I think it would be better if". Dare I say, most of the criticism in this thread is of the former variety, and very little of the latter.

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Please, you must see this to be true...and it speaks to your requests to "prove it could be published".

 

So you would expect a hiking group to walk 1 hour in circles around the summit cross only to prove that the requirement for events to be stationary is not restricting the set of publishable events?

For a water event it might somehow probably less absurd than for the hiking or biking case.

 

Of course there are more options for water events which however are not very close to my heart as unlike hiking events I have never taken part in one and their number is extremely small in my coin of the world.

 

The example you listed is not an example demonstrating that events can move as along as they fulfill the 30 minutes requirement at the posted coordinates which is what I had in mind when asking for a proof.

 

The paddle example is a set up where you can argue that only people will be able to attend the event who go to the location in a boat and visits by those just eager for a cheap attended log are not possible. That has not been my issue however. Whatever set up is chosen, it does change the fact that for such events during the official event time an untypical behaviour for the activity is chosen - it could be either sitting or standing around, walking in circles around e.g. a summit cross, circling in the middle of a pond. Somehow all artificial.

Edited by cezanne
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Please, you must see this to be true...and it speaks to your requests to "prove it could be published".

So you would expect a hiking group to walk 1 hour in circles around the summit cross only to prove that the requirement for events to be stationary is not restricting the set of publishable events?

For a water event it might somehow probably less absurd than for the hiking or biking case.

 

I'm convince you will never be satisfied.

 

Publish an event that requires hiking to. Up a hill. Mid-point of a trail. Whatever.

Provide an optional departure time from a trailhead that gives enough time for people to get to the event on time, or don't and let people have their own adventure. Whatever.

Have the event as a lunch mid-hike for 30 minutes, 60 minutes, have a picnic for 2 hours. Whatever.

Publishable.

Guaranteed.

 

ETA: I take that 'guaranteed' back. I don't know every reviewer, and one of them might judge differently. In that case, I would take it to appeals. Instead. "99% guaranteed"

Edited by thebruce0
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Publish an event that requires hiking to. Up a hill. Mid-point of a trail. Whatever.

Provide an optional departure time from a trailhead that gives enough time for people to get to the event on time, or don't and let people have their own adventure. Whatever.

Have the event as a lunch mid-hike for 30 minutes, 60 minutes, have a picnic for 2 hours. Whatever.

Publishable.

Guaranteed.

 

I have no doubts that this is publishable, but then the event is the lunch or picnic and not the hike, and that's my point. You just do not get what my arguments are about.

Of course the hike can take place - it can also take place without geocaching.com.

I'm not happy with the event guideline in terms of what can be an official geocaching event.

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I have never been to an event, ever, that required the event host or event attendees to stand or sit shackled and chained to the posted coordinates, and not allowed to mill about at will. I've never been to an event where everyone had to stand in a 8' x 8' circle for 30 minutes and not move. I doubt anyone else has had to either. And I strongly doubt anyone in the future will, even with this minor tightening of the event guidelines.

 

On the other hand, I've been to events, in parks for example, during the posted event times, where if someone wanted to go on a nice little "walk" and smell the pretty flowers on the other end of the park just did it, without permission from anyone, and without the world coming to an end. I've been to events where if someone (or a group of someones) wanted to leave for a few minutes and - on their own free-will - go grab that new cache 842 feet to the north, just did it. Including the event owner. They came back and enjoyed everyone's company for the duration of that event. BBQ'd burgers and had a brew or 3. Nobody took away their smiley or birthday for doing that. The universe survived. *gasp*

 

Having posted coordinates are there for a reason. So people can find it. It's really that simple. This is a GPS based game. Whether the event is at a pizza joint, or a picnic shelter in a park, the posted coordinates indicate that's where people (the event) will be. Nothing says you MUST go there and stand frozen in place for a half hour. Or 3 hours.

 

This isn't rocket science. Why are we making this so complicated? :rolleyes:

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This thread seems to have evolved into a discussion between those who see the guidelines as they are and those who envision the guidelines as they would like them to be.
Well, there's a difference between "I don't understand, please tell us why (over and over and over again)" and "Hey I have an idea" or "Hey sign this petition to take to Groundspeak" or "Hey I think it would be better if". Dare I say, most of the criticism in this thread is of the former variety, and very little of the latter.
And there's been a fair bit of "I don't understand why, please tell us why" that has been interpreted as "I don't understand how, please tell us how".
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So you're doing the hike for a :) ?

 

If you want to show up and be hiking 5 minutes later then don't create a GC event just hike.

 

I see hiking as geocaching because odds are there's caches along the trail, I have never considered I deserve an extra smiley for doing the hike.

Yeah. You should only get a :) for drinking beer.

 

Why is is that people have such a visceral reaction to others getting a :)?

 

Why is that you describe a statement such as "I never considered that I deserve an extra smiley" as a visceral reaction?

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Having posted coordinates are there for a reason. So people can find it. It's really that simple. This is a GPS based game. Whether the event is at a pizza joint, or a picnic shelter in a park, the posted coordinates indicate that's where people (the event) will be. Nothing says you MUST go there and stand frozen in place for a half hour. Or 3 hours.

 

I have already mentioned that we used to have events that were not bound to fixed coordinates for many years and people could find them and could use their GPS-receivers to do so. All went well and everyone who attended was happy.

 

I have not been at an event where someone was chained to a chair either. I have attended however quite a number of events where moving around to get to talk to someone whom I wanted to talk to was almost impossible due to the crowdedness at typical indoor events in restaurants. I almost stopped to attend indoor events.

 

I'm fully aware of the fact that there are typically more types of outdoor events in North America than in my area due to the infrastructure and the legal situation. In the very early years private gardens could be used, but these have become much too small for the exponential growth of geocaching.

 

Hiking events have been a chance to offer an option targeted towards a particular audience for which the workaround approaches are rather ridiculous.

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I'm not happy with the event guideline in terms of what can be an official geocaching event.

 

Good, then leave it at that. It's not your decision to make. All the stuff you want to do, you can still do. But if you insist on doing it your way, then you won't be able to let other people get that oh-so-coveted smiley in their profile. But they can still do what you want them to be able to do, and even have loads of fun doing it.

Edited by thebruce0
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Publish an event that requires hiking to. Up a hill. Mid-point of a trail. Whatever.

Provide an optional departure time from a trailhead that gives enough time for people to get to the event on time, or don't and let people have their own adventure. Whatever.

Have the event as a lunch mid-hike for 30 minutes, 60 minutes, have a picnic for 2 hours. Whatever.

Publishable.

Guaranteed.

 

I have no doubts that this is publishable, but then the event is the lunch or picnic and not the hike, and that's my point. You just do not get what my arguments are about.

Of course the hike can take place - it can also take place without geocaching.com.

I'm not happy with the event guideline in terms of what can be an official geocaching event.

Clear as a bell, this. You just don't get it.

 

Your "event" preference can still be a Geocaching.com Event Cache. You're just not willing to admit that you'd have to meet the guidelines to allow for what you want to happen...to happen. Just add the friggle-fraggin dizzle-dang language to make it meet the guidelines, and CACHE ON.

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Your "event" preference can still be a Geocaching.com Event Cache. You're just not willing to admit that you'd have to meet the guidelines to allow for what you want to happen...to happen. Just add the friggle-fraggin dizzle-dang language to make it meet the guidelines, and CACHE ON.

 

I cannot admit it since it is not true in my opinion. What I would like to have does not meet the guidelines and I still do not understand why the guideline could not be formulated in a different manner so that it both makes certain forms of abuse impossible and allows the type of events I have in mind.

 

Do you recall that it was you that told me that my preference can be included in an event, but not in the actual geocaching event at gc.com? And I happen to agree with you except for the fact that when I write event in the geocaching event, I mean geocaching event (and actually one listed on gc.com).

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Your "event" preference can still be a Geocaching.com Event Cache. You're just not willing to admit that you'd have to meet the guidelines to allow for what you want to happen...to happen. Just add the friggle-fraggin dizzle-dang language to make it meet the guidelines, and CACHE ON.

 

I cannot admit it since it is not true in my opinion. What I would like to have does not meet the guidelines and I still do not understand why the guideline could not be formulated in a different manner so that it both makes certain forms of abuse impossible and allows the type of events I have in mind.

 

Do you recall that it was you that told me that my preference can be included in an event, but not in the actual geocaching event at gc.com? And I happen to agree with you except for the fact that when I write event in the geocaching event, I mean geocaching event (and actually one listed on gc.com).

I'm not asking your opinion anymore. I'm asking you to admit that it is still possible to publish an Event Cache to include a hike/raft/paddle/whatever as the focus, or simply as part of the listing. We've proven it to be true. We've also provided a nauseating amount of clarity on how you, yourself, could include what you "want" into an Event Cache.

 

What you keep saying is that you don't think that the Event Cache would then include what you'd like it to include for the "event". But that's simply not true. What you're not willing to do is see that events simply need to have clear language that demonstrates the guidelines have been met. DONE DEAL.

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So I hear on Podcacher there have been some rule changes about events...regular events can be no less than 30 minutes, CITOs an hour and Mega events four hours. The last two I can see being no big deal, but the first, yeah, it could be. Unless you drag it out a bit, flash mobs are essentially toast. Thoughts?

Oh, lookie here! We've strayed waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay off topic. We should be discussing how "flash mobs are essentially toast". Oops!

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I'm not asking your opinion anymore. I'm asking you to admit that it is still possible to publish an Event Cache to include a hike/raft/paddle/whatever as the focus, or simply as part of the listing.

 

I never said anything contrary but the event is not the event listing. The hike and other activities can be mentioned, but it is not the part which warrants the event status from the point of view of Groundspeak. They apparently allow that other activities are mentioned as a kind of gray area. That's not the form of appreciation and being welcome that I wish there would be.

The way Groundspeak acts makes me feel that they would not miss hiking events.

 

I already provided the analogue how it would be if they decided to abolish all cache types other than traditional. You could still have a workaround by adding something to your final container and and/or to the cache page. I would not feel comfortable with such an approach either. I cannot help feeling that over the years Groundspeak has destroyed what event caches have been for me by a sequence of changes.

Edited by cezanne
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I'm not happy with the event guideline in terms of what can be an official geocaching event.

 

Good, then leave it at that. It's not your decision to make. All the stuff you want to do, you can still do. But if you insist on doing it your way, then you won't be able to let other people get that oh-so-coveted smiley in their profile. But they can still do what you want them to be able to do, and even have loads of fun doing it.

 

I'm not sure why someone who finds the change changes the way he and others might view a hiking event can't express their opinion. In the past you either had an event where you just went on the hike, or you had a very short period you set aside to comply with the requirment that an event be at the coordinates. Now you must set aside a bit longer time and in cezanne's opinion that takes away something from the hike.

 

Cleary one can still have the hike with this longer time spent standing around in one place, so in the end he may have to "let it go" and comply with the guidelines. But I certainly feel his pain that that under the new rules the hike is made to look like an afterthought.

 

So I hear on Podcacher there have been some rule changes about events...regular events can be no less than 30 minutes, CITOs an hour and Mega events four hours. The last two I can see being no big deal, but the first, yeah, it could be. Unless you drag it out a bit, flash mobs are essentially toast. Thoughts?

Oh, lookie here! We've strayed waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay off topic. We should be discussing how "flash mobs are essentially toast". Oops!

If the reason for the new guideline was to reduce or eliminate flash mob events, that doesn't necessarily mean that the guidelines don't have a impact othoer events. We're discussing the new time limit and the effect it has on other event as well a flash mobs.

 

I don't think it is cezanne or me that need to let it go but perhaps those who think you can convince people who are concerned about the intended or unintended consequence of the rule that "nothing has changed and nothing has been banned". That is utter nonsense, of course there has been changes and the option to have a five minute "event" has been banned. Great, for those who feel that five minutes is ridculously too short to call something an event, you're happy. For people who found the quick flash mob - either by itself or inconjunction with a hike or other activity a useful and valid option, things have changed and they are expressing their opinions.

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I'm not asking your opinion anymore. I'm asking you to admit that it is still possible to publish an Event Cache to include a hike/raft/paddle/whatever as the focus, or simply as part of the listing.

 

I never said anything contrary but the event is not the event listing. The hike and other activities can be mentioned, but it is not the part which warrants the event status from the point of view of Groundspeak. They apparently allow that other activities are mentioned as a kind of gray area. That's not the form of appreciation and being welcome that I wish there would be.

The way Groundspeak acts makes me feel that they would not miss hiking events.

 

I already provided the analogue how it would be if they decided to abolish all cache types other than traditional. You could still have a workaround by adding something to your final container and and/or to the cache page. I would not feel comfortable with such an approach either. I cannot help feeling that over the years Groundspeak has destroyed what event caches have been for me by a sequence of changes.

Perfect. I now understand. You do admit that it is possible, but you wish that featured activities were more "legitimized" .

 

Here's your answer, rather than continuing to post here (where there isn't much reading by TPTB going on...):

 

Post your suggestion that there be a new Event Cache type for each type of activity. Hiking Event Cache. Paddling Event Cache. Rafting Event Cache. Biking Event Cache. Perhaps just a "Moving Event Cache" type? Head over to the Website/Feature topic, post your new idea there, and let TPTB see it, and take it into account!

 

I think we're done here! B)

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If the reason for the new guideline was to reduce or eliminate flash mob events, that doesn't necessarily mean that the guidelines don't have a impact othoer events. We're discussing the new time limit and the effect it has on other event as well a flash mobs.

 

I don't think it is cezanne or me that need to let it go but perhaps those who think you can convince people who are concerned about the intended or unintended consequence of the rule that "nothing has changed and nothing has been banned". That is utter nonsense, of course there has been changes and the option to have a five minute "event" has been banned. Great, for those who feel that five minutes is ridculously too short to call something an event, you're happy. For people who found the quick flash mob - either by itself or inconjunction with a hike or other activity a useful and valid option, things have changed and they are expressing their opinions.

To the point, cezanne wouldn't be happy with keeping the Flash Mob, 5-minute cache either, because those didn't have the ability to contain "moving" event cache types (which is nothing new according to the guidelines, just new according to how it will be enforced in cezanne's neighborhood now with this clear clarification from Groundspeak on 30-minute minimum requirements)

 

Also, Toz, ETA:

I think we should also suggest that a smiley as "reward" for attending an event be removed. With the valuation of a smiley, there's gonna be problems. If we took away the smiley, we could have events any way we want them: The Geocaching.com website could have a listing type were we can announce community events--apart from any facebook group or listserve/forum.

 

We can then still have events be searchable like any other cache type, still formatted like other cache pages, but with no smiley for logging that "Attended" log. Just the ability to log a "Will Attend" and "Attended" to talk about your experience at the event. I'd enjoy that.

 

Apart from how cezanne (incorrectly) paints me as anti-activity event and a fan of sitting still, tied to a pizza parlor booth, I really like the idea of being able to have any event you like become a gathering of geocachers.

 

If I have a GPS-based scouting event, list it on geocaching.com to bring in more geocachers. I want to bring people to a hockey game? List it for geocachers to find on Geocaching.com. A hike to a mountain? List it. A rafting trip? List it. A coffeeshop meet and greet? List it!

 

Take away the requirements, take away the "find" point, and we get events back the way we'd all like them.

 

...That is, except the people who want to earn another smiley for attending an event. Which is, I'm almost positive, a vast majority of players of this game. So..we're back to needing to address all the baggage that comes with listing an event and being sure that people can log to get a smiley, and without worrying about someone deleting their log or whatever.

Edited by NeverSummer
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I'm not sure why someone who finds the change changes the way he and others might view a hiking event can't express their opinion. In the past you either had an event where you just went on the hike, or you had a very short period you set aside to comply with the requirment that an event be at the coordinates. Now you must set aside a bit longer time and in cezanne's opinion that takes away something from the hike.

 

Cleary one can still have the hike with this longer time spent standing around in one place, so in the end he may have to "let it go" and comply with the guidelines. But I certainly feel his pain that that under the new rules the hike is made to look like an afterthought.

Yes. I sympathize. We can all sympathize. There is a change. And it affects the content of some cache listings. That was done intentionally and knowingly by Groundspeak. Reasons were given. Complaining continues. Ad nauseum. It happens whenever a guideline or rule change is put into effect. The world rolls on.

 

I don't think it is cezanne or me that need to let it go but perhaps those who think you can convince people who are concerned about the intended or unintended consequence of the rule that "nothing has changed and nothing has been banned". That is utter nonsense, of course there has been changes and the option to have a five minute "event" has been banned. Great, for those who feel that five minutes is ridculously too short to call something an event, you're happy. For people who found the quick flash mob - either by itself or inconjunction with a hike or other activity a useful and valid option, things have changed and they are expressing their opinions.

No one said "nothing has changed". And yes, indirectly, "nothing has been banned". The change was not "Flash mobs are no longer allowed." The change was "Events must now have a minimum duration of 30 minutes." Semantics? Sure. The point is, the rule change more stringently defines what an Event is and can be. Flash mobs can still happen - whether within the 30 minute time slot, or outside the 30 minute time slot; but it cannot be the entirety of a an official Geocaching.com Event Listing. Its event content is entirely up to the event creator, for approval by a reviewer.

 

 

This:

Here's your answer, rather than continuing to post here (where there isn't much reading by TPTB going on...):

 

Post your suggestion that there be a new Event Cache type for each type of activity. Hiking Event Cache. Paddling Event Cache. Rafting Event Cache. Biking Event Cache. Perhaps just a "Moving Event Cache" type? Head over to the Website/Feature topic, post your new idea there, and let TPTB see it, and take it into account!

 

I think we're done here! B)

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I think we should also suggest that a smiley as "reward" for attending an event be removed. With the valuation of a smiley, there's gonna be problems. If we took away the smiley, we could have events any way we want them: The Geocaching.com website could have a listing type were we can announce community events--apart from any facebook group or listserve/forum.

 

We can then still have events be searchable like any other cache type, still formatted like other cache pages, but with no smiley for logging that "Attended" log. Just the ability to log a "Will Attend" and "Attended" to talk about your experience at the event. I'd enjoy that.

 

Apart from how cezanne (incorrectly) paints me as anti-activity event and a fan of sitting still, tied to a pizza parlor booth, I really like the idea of being able to have any event you like become a gathering of geocachers.

 

If I have a GPS-based scouting event, list it on geocaching.com to bring in more geocachers. I want to bring people to a hockey game? List it for geocachers to find on Geocaching.com. A hike to a mountain? List it. A rafting trip? List it. A coffeeshop meet and greet? List it!

 

That would be an interesting new type - a non-smiley generic event listing. Remove the smiley, but retain all the other benefits of notifications and map placement and whatnot to keep the geocaching audience; add in the content flexibility... reviewer requirements would be fewer if that's kept.

 

But, I might guess Groundspeak would simply ask that people use social media to plan such events... except that in that case the geocaching.com general audience would be lost.

Still, interesting idea.

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Show me a single newly published example where the hike or the raft is part of the geocache event.

 

Please

 

And no, this is not a 'moving event'. It's publishable because it's not a 'moving event'.

 

I know there's going to be some reason why this is still not a sufficient answer to the question. I have to be done with cezanne... :tired:

 

And another:

 

http://coord.info/GC5KBKX

Published before the new Guidelines, BB. It also only has 15 minutes at the "above coordinates", not 30.

 

However, the "paddle" is certainly the focus of the event...so...

 

Yes - pre-30 minute rule. We would have stayed on station for 30 minutes if necessary.

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Show me a single newly published example where the hike or the raft is part of the geocache event.

 

Please

 

And no, this is not a 'moving event'. It's publishable because it's not a 'moving event'.

 

I know there's going to be some reason why this is still not a sufficient answer to the question. I have to be done with cezanne... :tired:

 

And another:

 

http://coord.info/GC5KBKX

Published before the new Guidelines, BB. It also only has 15 minutes at the "above coordinates", not 30.

 

However, the "paddle" is certainly the focus of the event...so...

 

Yes - pre-30 minute rule. We would have stayed on station for 30 minutes if necessary.

thumb-up-terminator_pablo_M_R.jpg

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I think we should also suggest that a smiley as "reward" for attending an event be removed. With the valuation of a smiley, there's gonna be problems. If we took away the smiley, we could have events any way we want them: The Geocaching.com website could have a listing type were we can announce community events--apart from any facebook group or listserve/forum.

 

We can then still have events be searchable like any other cache type, still formatted like other cache pages, but with no smiley for logging that "Attended" log. Just the ability to log a "Will Attend" and "Attended" to talk about your experience at the event. I'd enjoy that.

 

Apart from how cezanne (incorrectly) paints me as anti-activity event and a fan of sitting still, tied to a pizza parlor booth, I really like the idea of being able to have any event you like become a gathering of geocachers.

 

If I have a GPS-based scouting event, list it on geocaching.com to bring in more geocachers. I want to bring people to a hockey game? List it for geocachers to find on Geocaching.com. A hike to a mountain? List it. A rafting trip? List it. A coffeeshop meet and greet? List it!

 

Take away the requirements, take away the "find" point, and we get events back the way we'd all like them.

 

...That is, except the people who want to earn another smiley for attending an event. Which is, I'm almost positive, a vast majority of players of this game. So..we're back to needing to address all the baggage that comes with listing an event and being sure that people can log to get a smiley, and without worrying about someone deleting their log or whatever.

 

For what it's worth, I'd support changing the reward for attending an event from a smiley to something else. The fact that events even are counted as a find seems like a carryover from some bygone era. I envision you could implement something similar to trackables, wherein hosting/attending events would have their own set of stats. This could divorce some of the issues with how events need to be hosted, but still provides folks that are used to seeing events "count" towards something a tangible stat to keep track of, should they want to. It's not going to happen, but I'd see this as a pretty reasonable solution.

 

The question becomes, would attendance drop off significantly from such a change when folks realize that it doesn't add to their find count? My inclination is to say no, and as example I'd relate to something else, the phenomenon of placing new caches in support of an event. A local cacher I knew began hosting events on a somewhat regular basis and each time he would post on the event page about how many new caches would be placed for the event. The events were well attended. After a number of these though, he began to grow weary of placing so many caches, for events or otherwise. Rather cautiously, he held one of his trademark events but without any new caches placed for it. And it was attended just as well as the previous events. And he was thrilled to unburden himself from this idea that he had to place new geocaches in order to draw geocachers to his events. Turns out, being a good host and throwing a fun event doesn't require placing geocaches at all. In a more general sense, I think this worry that people will not attend your event if they are not going to get a "big payout" in the form of finds is a real one that event hosts deal with. And I'd like to think that it is mostly an artificial worry, and that geocachers will get together because we like to. cute_animated.gif

 

[edit to correct grammar]

Edited by Fugads
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I think we should also suggest that a smiley as "reward" for attending an event be removed.

 

I support this and have supported it already many years ago but I guess it won't happen ever.

 

Apart from how cezanne (incorrectly) paints me as anti-activity event and a fan of sitting still, tied to a pizza parlor booth, I really like the idea of being able to have any event you like become a gathering of geocachers.

 

If you misunderstood me in that way, I apologize. I wrote that what Groundspeak does makes me feel that hiking/paddling is not an activity for events they really appreciate in the same way as other activities. I might even be wrong with this.

I never ever said that you are anti-activity event.

 

What I still feel is that noone here sofar provided a convincing argument why if debates about logging attended are the most important issue one could not have events which have to spend at least 30 minutes at the posted coordinates in a fixed time frame, but can do whatever else outside of that frame. That still would be a compromise but very different from having to declare the stationary part as the official event and everything else as just tolerated on the cache page.

Of course the hike itself will not be different, but the way Groundspeak makes me and others feel would change considerably.

 

I do not appreciate to have the feeling that Groundspeak thinks of a 30 minute event at a parking lot as lame and just meeting the minimum requirement when in reality all what the event is about happens outside of the 30 minute frame and it is Groundspeak who enforces it that way.

 

The workarounds you and many other post are not so creative that I would not have had the same idea (even when I had not seen it before). They do not change the fundamental issue I have.

 

I often explained that I'm disappointed by the fact that so much in geocaching is now apparently driven by needs that come from debates what is a legitimate log. It sometimes appears to be more important than almost everything else. I cannot change this, but I'm unhappy about the situation.

 

By the way (off topic): I'm also among the supporters of virtual caches, and yet again I would want to have them in a form where they count seperately.

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But, I might guess Groundspeak would simply ask that people use social media to plan such events... except that in that case the geocaching.com general audience would be lost.

 

Social media simply do not work for such purposes (at least in my area). (They of course work well when a group of friends wants to go for group caching.)

First, there are cachers who do not want to use them.

Second, there are so many insider groups (most of them by the way closed and open only by invitation) - cliques of friends very often.

Third, with so many different groups hardly anyone really would realize the existence of a new group and would follow it.

Local forums died out in many areas and are no alternative.

 

gc.com is the only approach to attract the target audience (which by the way can often also come from other regions).

My country e.g. is not large - it can easily happen that some one from another province looks for events in my province and vice vera, but they would not want to watch all social media groups. Looking up events in a calendar is something you do in a more targeted way, e.g. when you know you will be in area A at time t.

 

In theory one could make up a separate site for events (with a lot of work), but then again geocachers would hardly use it as they cannot use the same maps, interface etc they already use. Moreover in Europe one also has the issue with so many countries being close to each other. So e.g. an Austrian event site would not be that useful. A European project of that scale is hardly manageable and it would duplicate would essentially is already there anyway.

Edited by cezanne
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Show me a single newly published example where the hike or the raft is part of the geocache event.

 

Please

 

And no, this is not a 'moving event'. It's publishable because it's not a 'moving event'.

 

I know there's going to be some reason why this is still not a sufficient answer to the question. I have to be done with cezanne... :tired:

 

And another:

 

http://coord.info/GC5KBKX

Published before the new Guidelines, BB. It also only has 15 minutes at the "above coordinates", not 30.

 

However, the "paddle" is certainly the focus of the event...so...

 

Yes - pre-30 minute rule. We would have stayed on station for 30 minutes if necessary.

 

So here's a better example:

 

http://coord.info/GC420VB

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So here's a better example:

 

http://coord.info/GC420VB

 

For sure a nice event, but such a construction is not possible for a hiking event in my area. It would only be possible at a very remote location in a very lonesome mountain area and the slow walkers (like me) then would either have to start earlier than the rest alone or not arrive during the official event timeframe.

 

Your examples just demonstrate that there as outdoor events are regarded, there is a huge difference between North America and my area which is not too surprising. My area has to offer for more historic places than North America but certainly much less locations that could be used for events like the above. Moreover, only few people own paddle boats and could transport them if they owned one.

I sat in a kayak only twice in my life (both times in very quiet water) and both times in Germany and most cachers I know have never sat in a kayak.

 

Hiking events were pretty much the only form of attractive non garden party style outdoor event available in my area. Of course there are some occasional outliers - like one diving events in a decade e.g.

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For sure a nice event, but such a construction is not possible for a hiking event in my area. It would only be possible at a very remote location in a very lonesome mountain area and the slow walkers (like me) then would either have to start earlier than the rest alone or not arrive during the official event timeframe.

 

I am still not getting it I guess.

 

List a similar hiking event, and you provide the time you plan on leaving the trailhead (start time would have to be earlier to reach the meet location at or about the event start time). Most people will probably meet you at the start location/time. You all walk in together. Yes, you may have slower/faster people, but I suspect most people will match the slower folks, since everyone likes to be social on these group hikes (or at least you will have one or more clusters of people). When people are ready to depart, they depart. Some may leave early, some may leave late.

 

People keep giving you work-arounds to manage your event within the Geocaching.com guidelines, but none seem to satisfy you. I have help both hiking and kayaking events of this nature, and they all seem to work out quite well.

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People keep giving you work-arounds to manage your event within the Geocaching.com guidelines, but none seem to satisfy you. I have help both hiking and kayaking events of this nature, and they all seem to work out quite well.

 

They give workarounds, that is exactly the problem. I did not ask for for workarounds. Those people do in good intent because their approach is pragmatic. They describe how one can circumvent the guidelines in some sense and still invite geocachers for a joint activity via gc.com. It has always been clear to me that this can be done and how.

That however never addressed my issue - I'm not taking the pragmatic approach at all. I come from the opposite side.

 

Your example of the paddle event however is in a way different that despite the fact that it has to use the workaround it does not end up as something which is a lame event to me and which I would not want to attend. (With event I mean the official Groundspeak part.)

 

So such events like yours do not change my feeling that Groundspeak does not show appreciation for events in which hiking, biking, paddling etc are integral parts, but at least the outcome is something I'm not that unhappy with. In the hiking case I could not think of a setup in my area where the outcome would be the same. 100 further suggestions for workarounds will not change that.

 

Moreover, despite this long thread noone managed to explain me convincingly why events in a restaurant where the event is about a quiz competition (questions typically not geocaching related) is of higher value to Groundspeak than a hiking event (not used for searching and finding caches). The quiz is not a side activity - it is the central activity of the geocaching event. One finds there less options to socialize that on any hiking event I have ever heard about. Yet socializing is what is used as the key argument. Some people have argued that food is seen as a good basis for some people to socialize, I hardly think that taking part in quiz competitions is seen at the same level. I just feel that almost every sort of stationary event is possible and the socializing argument is not really the one it is about though it is used by Groundspeak as the strongest one.

Edited by cezanne
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Events with several elements, a sequence of events, or events that are near the same time or location and intended for the same audience should be submitted as a single event. Additional waypoints may be added to the event listing for the locations of event activities.

 

Seems to me this would include anything from hiking a trail to kayaking a lake. What's all the fuss about?

The purpose of an event cache is to get folks together. If you don't care about having a group get together at a specific time and place, why would you even make it an event cache?

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Events with several elements, a sequence of events, or events that are near the same time or location and intended for the same audience should be submitted as a single event. Additional waypoints may be added to the event listing for the locations of event activities.

 

Seems to me this would include anything from hiking a trail to kayaking a lake. What's all the fuss about?

The purpose of an event cache is to get folks together. If you don't care about having a group get together at a specific time and place, why would you even make it an event cache?

 

The problem is that unlike to the reviewing practice in many areas over many years now these activities that do not take part at the posted coordinates can be mentioned on the cache page, but they are not part of the actual event. Get together for me does not mean that everyone spends a fixed amount of time at the same coordinates.

Of course one could have a hike where one offers 30 minutes at the start point and 30 minutes at the end point and both 30 minutes period would receive the recognition

of Groundpeak (of course only as one event and not two).

They do not regard however moving from A to B as part of the event, and that's what I have an issue with.

 

I still think that going for a 3 hours hike with a group of geocachers and talking about geocaching during fits better to what from the very start has been my idea about a geocaching event than taking part in a quiz competition in a restaurant (the quiz is not a side activity). At least I can socialize and chat much better while walking than while finding answers to quiz questions and having to reply in order not to embarrass the team of which I am part of.

Edited by cezanne
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bash-head.gif

 

 

> I wrote that what Groundspeak does makes me feel that hiking/paddling is not an activity for events they really appreciate in the same way as other activities.

Right. They aren't. They are moving events, which is not how they want to define official Geocaching.com Event Listings.

 

> They give workarounds, that is exactly the problem. I did not ask for for workarounds.

You have been given answers and solutions to your precise problems. - yes, pragmatically. But you will never be satisfied. Thus, you are continually arguing until you get your way. You're arguing for the sake of arguing.

 

> I still think that going for a 3 hours hike with a group of geocachers and talking about geocaching during fits better to what from the very start has been my idea about a geocaching event

But it is not what an official Geocaching.com Event Listing is defined as. Yet there is nothing stopping you from still doing those things. There is a clear, solid, absolute line, a rule you do not like, in regards to what constitutes an official Geocaching.com Event Listing. You do not get it, or understand it. You will not be satisfied by simply accepting the fact that its definition is their decision. The reasons they gave, the reasons we've echoed explained ad nauseum, you do not like, you do not feel are relevant, you do not feel are sufficient.

 

> At least I can socialize and chat much better while walking

 

Then go walk with your geocaching friends. You just can't list THAT WALK as an official Geocaching.com Event Listing, unless you meet beforehand, or meet afterwards. Get it.

 

:signalviolin:

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Events with several elements, a sequence of events, or events that are near the same time or location and intended for the same audience should be submitted as a single event. Additional waypoints may be added to the event listing for the locations of event activities.

 

Seems to me this would include anything from hiking a trail to kayaking a lake. What's all the fuss about?

The purpose of an event cache is to get folks together. If you don't care about having a group get together at a specific time and place, why would you even make it an event cache?

The purpose of event is to facilitate socialization. A group hiking together or floating on a raft can socialize just as well (if not better) than a group trying to have a conversation in a noisy restaurant while drinking beer.

 

One may want to disassociate the particular activities from the "event" and say you can have hiking, eating, three-legged race, lab caches, beer drinking, and a raffle as activities. Attendees just need to show up at coordinates and can choose whether or not to participate in any of the activities. But the guidelines do not treat all activities equally. If the activities take place close to or at the posted coordinates for most or all of the length of the event, your event gets published. If your activity moves away from the posted coodinates you are forced to add activities that don't move. You must add a 1/2 hour activity of standing around, then schedule the event for that 1/2 hour and only then can you have other activities you want, even ones that move away from the posted coordinates and even take place outside the 1/2 hour or the 'event'.

Edited by tozainamboku
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One may want to disassociate the particular activities from the "event" and say you can have hiking, eating, three-legged race, lab caches, beer drinking, and a raffle as activities. Attendees just need to show up at coordinates and can choose whether or not to participate in any of the activities. But the guidelines do not treat all activities equally. If the activities take place close to or at the posted coordinates for most or all of the length of the event, your event gets published. If your activity moves away from the posted coodinates you are forced to add activities that don't move. You must add a 1/2 hour activity of standing around, then schedule the event for that 1/2 hour and only then can you have other activities you want, even ones that move away from the posted coordinates and even take place outside the 1/2 hour or the 'event'.

 

Exactly.

The only event prejudice happening with these rules is the difference between a stationary 30minute event and moving events or short events. By my understanding the best reason for stationary is to avoid events published for the sake of finding caches as opposed to be 'about geocaching'. The non-moving rule however has been around for some time now. The only new rule is the 30 minute minimum. While the stationary rule reduces event listing content from containing moving-style events (but does not deny that those activities can still take place above and beyond the listing), a 30 minute minimum rule reduces event listing content from short or flash mob event listings (an activity which can also still take place above and beyond the listing).

 

This is how they are defining official Geocaching.com Event Listings.

Not everyone likes it.

They've explained it, and defended it.

Every activity can still happen as it did before - except for what constitutes the content of a publishable, official Geocaching.com Event Listing.

The world will not end.

Edited by thebruce0
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Events with several elements, a sequence of events, or events that are near the same time or location and intended for the same audience should be submitted as a single event. Additional waypoints may be added to the event listing for the locations of event activities.

 

Seems to me this would include anything from hiking a trail to kayaking a lake. What's all the fuss about?

The purpose of an event cache is to get folks together. If you don't care about having a group get together at a specific time and place, why would you even make it an event cache?

The purpose of event is to facilitate socialization. A group hiking together or floating on a raft can socialize just as well (if not better) than a group trying to have a conversation in a noisy restaurant while drinking beer.

 

One may want to disassociate the particular activities from the "event" and say you can have hiking, eating, three-legged race, lab caches, beer drinking, and a raffle as activities. Attendees just need to show up at coordinates and can choose whether or not to participate in any of the activities. But the guidelines do not treat all activities equally. If the activities take place close to or at the posted coordinates for most or all of the length of the event, your event gets published. If your activity moves away from the posted coodinates you are forced to add activities that don't move. You must add a 1/2 hour activity of standing around, then schedule the event for that 1/2 hour and only then can you have other activities you want, even ones that move away from the posted coordinates and even take place outside the 1/2 hour or the 'event'.

 

I still don't see a problem. Post a hike event: start at coordinates X/Y at 9am, picnic lunch at coordinates X2/Y2 at noon, wrap-up at 4pm at coordinates X/Y. It's just a framework or an agenda for anyone participating...but not necessary for everyone to meet at X2/Y2 at noon if they're not hungry or if they are slow hikers. Just like going to a conference downtown and they schedule a catered lunch hour for attendees, but maybe you live in-town and know a good place to eat five blocks away. You're still taking part in the conference, you're just deviating from whatever set schedule they set up for folks. It's not a "workaround" to create that lunchtime picnic, it's an opportunity to gather and be social as part of the event.

 

The conference may also have a number of lectures scheduled that attendees may or may not sit in on. Because some of them may not sit in on all of the lectures doesn't mean they didn't take part in the conference. It's just a schedule...it's what makes it a conference to begin with. Without some timeline or agenda, it's just a disorganized milling about of like-minded people.

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I still don't see a problem. Post a hike event: start at coordinates X/Y at 9am, picnic lunch at coordinates X2/Y2 at noon, wrap-up at 4pm at coordinates X/Y. It's just a framework or an agenda for anyone participating...but not necessary for everyone to meet at X2/Y2 at noon if they're not hungry or if they are slow hikers. Just like going to a conference downtown and they schedule a catered lunch hour for attendees, but maybe you live in-town and know a good place to eat five blocks away. You're still taking part in the conference, you're just deviating from whatever set schedule they set up for folks. It's not a "workaround" to create that lunchtime picnic, it's an opportunity to gather and be social as part of the event.

Actually to be published, the listing would have to be clear in that the Event itself is at noon for a period of at least 30 minutes for a lunch picnic at coordinates X2/Y2. The listing can provide a suggested start time & coordinates at 9am, and wrap up time & coordinates at 4pm, but the only requirement to log an Attended for the Event is that you be at X2/Y2 at any point between 12:00 and 12:30+, where there will be someone/people.

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I still don't see a problem. Post a hike event: start at coordinates X/Y at 9am, picnic lunch at coordinates X2/Y2 at noon, wrap-up at 4pm at coordinates X/Y. It's just a framework or an agenda for anyone participating...but not necessary for everyone to meet at X2/Y2 at noon if they're not hungry or if they are slow hikers. Just like going to a conference downtown and they schedule a catered lunch hour for attendees, but maybe you live in-town and know a good place to eat five blocks away. You're still taking part in the conference, you're just deviating from whatever set schedule they set up for folks. It's not a "workaround" to create that lunchtime picnic, it's an opportunity to gather and be social as part of the event.

 

The conference may also have a number of lectures scheduled that attendees may or may not sit in on. Because some of them may not sit in on all of the lectures doesn't mean they didn't take part in the conference. It's just a schedule...it's what makes it a conference to begin with. Without some timeline or agenda, it's just a disorganized milling about of like-minded people.

 

The difference is that the lectures are a well recognized part of the conference and not something which is just tolerated to be mentioned in the program and needs a workaround to be possible at all.

It's not about the choice for the attendants of an event in which parts to take part and in which not to take part, but about the point of view of Groundspeak and how they treat event activities differently in a way that I regard as unfair.

 

The workaround is not that a lunchtime picnic takes place, but that the geocache event as seen by Groundspeak is only the picnic and not the hike too. I do not have an issue with a timeline, just with the fact that Groundspeak only declares the static elements as parts of the event. It's like claiming that the lectures are not part of the conference, only the social activities and the lectures are just allowed to be announced in the conference program. I would not want to organize or attend a conference under such premises. I would feel degraded.

 

By the way, the change that they now allow several additional waypoints for events to take account of nearby activities (introduced not too long ago apparently for the purpose to avoid event stacking) makes it even harder for me to understand why Groundspeak has this big issue with events that involve a moving aspect as part of the event. Due to these multi waypoint structure one cannot even use the comparison that events are the equivalent of traditional caches.

 

One could have e.g. 3 consecutive locations and 3 meeting periods or activities in parallel at different locations - it just matters that they are stationary.

As soon as they move, it's an issue. This can neither be explained with the one waypoint principle nor with socializing nor with trying to avoid group hikes for finding geocaches (those who want to get something through under all means do not care much whether they have to use workarounds and workarounds always exist). It's rather people who care about the principles and reasons behind and do not like workarounds if they do not see a reason for their need that are affected in a negative manner.

Edited by cezanne
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I still don't see a problem. Post a hike event: start at coordinates X/Y at 9am, picnic lunch at coordinates X2/Y2 at noon, wrap-up at 4pm at coordinates X/Y. It's just a framework or an agenda for anyone participating...but not necessary for everyone to meet at X2/Y2 at noon if they're not hungry or if they are slow hikers. Just like going to a conference downtown and they schedule a catered lunch hour for attendees, but maybe you live in-town and know a good place to eat five blocks away. You're still taking part in the conference, you're just deviating from whatever set schedule they set up for folks. It's not a "workaround" to create that lunchtime picnic, it's an opportunity to gather and be social as part of the event.

 

The conference may also have a number of lectures scheduled that attendees may or may not sit in on. Because some of them may not sit in on all of the lectures doesn't mean they didn't take part in the conference. It's just a schedule...it's what makes it a conference to begin with. Without some timeline or agenda, it's just a disorganized milling about of like-minded people.

 

The difference is that the lectures are a well recognized part of the conference and not something which is just tolerated to be mentioned in the program and needs a workaround to be possible at all.

It's not about the choice for the attendants of an event in which parts to take part and in which not to take part, but about the point of view of Groundspeak and how they treat event activities differently in a way that I regard as unfair.

 

The workaround is not that a lunchtime picnic takes place, but that the geocache event as seen by Groundspeak is only the picnic and not the hike too. I do not have an issue with a timeline, just with the fact that Groundspeak only declares the static elements as parts of the event. It's like claiming that the lectures are not part of the conference, only the social activities and the lectures are just allowed to be announced in the conference program. I would not want to organize or attend a conference under such premises. I would feel degraded.

 

"degraded"? Really?

 

How else are they supposed to define an event? Look it up in the dictionary...most will say something like "something that occurs in a certain place during a particular interval of time". How else can they publish it aside from listing a set of coordinates and a time, with additional coordinates for gatherings during the hike? I seriously do not understand what the problem is here. Time? Check. Place? Check. Geocachers? Check. Publish.

 

I fail to see how GS is saying a meet-up at a restaurant is more valid than a hike.

 

I think you'd find you wouldn't get much positive feedback if you somehow posted an event where people just to a particular trail and hike as long as they want. You'd hear people say it wasn't organized or that they didn't get to meet any other cachers. It would just be a bit silly. Giving designated times (opportunities) for people to meet up and get to know each other is the whole point and I'm sure that's all they need to approve it for publication.

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I think you'd find you wouldn't get much positive feedback if you somehow posted an event where people just to a particular trail and hike as long as they want. You'd hear people say it wasn't organized or that they didn't get to meet any other cachers. It would just be a bit silly. Giving designated times (opportunities) for people to meet up and get to know each other is the whole point and I'm sure that's all they need to approve it for publication.

 

Additionally, you'd get people making use of that allowance to organize group caching events, which is a no-no. :P

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The only event prejudice happening with these rules is the difference between a stationary 30minute event and moving events or short events. By my understanding the best reason for stationary is to avoid events published for the sake of finding caches as opposed to be 'about geocaching'.

 

At the latest at the point when they reformulated the event guidelines to allow multiple waypoints and activities as long as they are stationary at the waypoints, they turned this sort of argument into something absurd. They introduced this to avoid event stacking but now one can have events

where one meets for 30 minutes at the trail head (posted coordinates), for 30 minutes at a restaurant along a hike (or even less of that's not the posted coordinates) and for 30 minutes (or less) at the end of the hike. One can also come up with more waypoints. This of course very well allows for doing this with the real intent of going for a geocaching group hunt.

 

None of the hiking events I participated in was used for a geocaching group hunt.

 

Given that multiple waypoints are possible as long as what happens at the waypoints is stationary, all arguments provided in this thread pro the event guidelines do not make any sense. The guidelines are simply not consistent and favour some activities over others.

 

 

This is how they are defining official Geocaching.com Event Listings.

Not everyone likes it.

They've explained it, and defended it.

 

No, they neither explained nor defended it. The guidelines have been repeated and it was mentioned that events are for socializing and that the socializing should take place for a minimum amount of time.

The hiking events which are not feasible fulfill all this. A quiz event at a restaurant does not and is publishable.

 

Every activity can still happen as it did before - except for what constitutes the content of a publishable, official Geocaching.com Event Listing.

The world will not end.

 

We do not a thread to realize that Groundspeak is not the governor of the world. Of course they cannot avoid that cachers go for a hike.

Edited by cezanne
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"degraded"? Really?

 

Yes, that's how I feel and I tried endlessly to explain it why while I'm constantly being told that workaround exists which is nothing new to me, but does not change the way I feel.

 

How else are they supposed to define an event? Look it up in the dictionary...most will say something like "something that occurs in a certain place during a particular interval of time". How else can they publish it aside from listing a set of coordinates and a time, with additional coordinates for gatherings during the hike? I seriously do not understand what the problem is here. Time? Check. Place? Check. Geocachers? Check. Publish.

 

They managed to publish events of the type I have in mind for many, many years and so their usage of event included something which moved.

Also the fact that they now allow multiple waypoints demonstrates that the event can stretch over time and is not taking necessarily place at one single place - it can be a sequence of periods spent in a stationary manner which also makes your dictionary argument not convincing. With your interpretation 5 activities would boil down to 5 events - but this is what they do not want to have due to the event stacking. So in a way all what they care is about avoiding debates about attended logs and the publish process for the reviewers.

 

 

I've always thought of e.g. a day excursion of a company or school class as an event and not only breakfast, the lunch breaks and dinner.

 

I fail to see how GS is saying a meet-up at a restaurant is more valid than a hike.

 

The meet-up at a stationary location is part of an official geocaching event, the hike is not.

 

I think you'd find you wouldn't get much positive feedback if you somehow posted an event where people just to a particular trail and hike as long as they want. You'd hear people say it wasn't organized or that they didn't get to meet any other cachers. It would just be a bit silly. Giving designated times (opportunities) for people to meet up and get to know each other is the whole point and I'm sure that's all they need to approve it for publication.

 

I did not suggest something along these lines. Every single hiking event I attended was organized and everyone could meet everyone which was definitely not true for most other events I participated in.

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The only event prejudice happening with these rules is the difference between a stationary 30minute event and moving events or short events. By my understanding the best reason for stationary is to avoid events published for the sake of finding caches as opposed to be 'about geocaching'. The non-moving rule however has been around for some time now. The only new rule is the 30 minute minimum. While the stationary rule reduces event listing content from containing moving-style events (but does not deny that those activities can still take place above and beyond the listing), a 30 minute minimum rule reduces event listing content from short or flash mob event listings (an activity which can also still take place above and beyond the listing).

I did a quick search to see what if any discussion occured when the guidelines were changed to say the event takes place at the posted coordinated and has a stop time and start time. I did't find anything; perhaps someone else will have more luck.

 

I suspect that there were people who express an concern that this would effect hiking caches and other "moving" events. I also suspect that they were told not to worry becuase there was an easy work around to have a minimal time set aside at the start or end of the hike.

 

It is possible that the workaround was abused. I.E. people were creating "flash mobs" just to start off or end a day of geocaching, or to get a bunch of geocachers to meet them a the airport to exchange travel bugs when the were going on vacation. So perhaps TPTB feel that making the mini-event have to be at least 1/2 would dissuade the abuse. If does seem pretty clear that legitimate hiking or paddling events are being affected, but in the past when a guidline created such a restriction this was at least acknowledge by TPTB. Here they simple imply that hiking, paddle, or any activity that doesn't stay in one place isn't socializing.

 

This is how they are defining official Geocaching.com Event Listings.

Not everyone likes it.

They've explained it, and defended it.

Every activity can still happen as it did before - except for what constitutes the content of a publishable, official Geocaching.com Event Listing.

The world will not end.

The world doesn't end. But when guidelines restrict or treats unfairly what a substantial number of geocachers view as a legitimate cache or event, some may take their case to the forums. Perhaps someone from Grounspeak is listening, or perhaps they get annoyed by someone using certain acronyms or speculating on the real reason for the change :unsure:. For sure there will always be people who simply accept Groundspeak's decision and feel its their job to object to the critics.

 

We all agree that under the new guidelines you can still have a hiking activity. We all agree that by adding a 1/2 hour activity that does stay in one place you can get the event listed. It seems legitimate to ask Groundspeak to review the impact of all the guidelines on events that previously got published, that people enjoyed, and that facilitated socialization in many cases better that the traditional pizza and beer event.

Edited by tozainamboku
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Why am I even bothering...

 

> when they reformulated the event guidelines to allow multiple waypoints and activities as long as they are stationary at the waypoints, they turned this sort of argument into something absurd.

 

You think they're absurd. The rules make logical sense. You just don't like the reasoning. Bummer, eh?

 

> They introduced this to avoid event stacking but now one can have events...

 

One always could, now you're just trying to set up straw-men.

 

> where one meets for 30 minutes at the trail head (posted coordinates)

 

If an event host wanted to do that, then yes. If the reviewer felt that it was an event sufficient and worthy of publishing as a Geocaching event, then yes.

 

> for 30 minutes at a restaurant along a hike (or even less of that's not the posted coordinates)

 

If an event host wanted to do that, then yes - the event would be the 30 minutes at the restaurant. Regardless of the hike, the host may entice people to do it, but not require them to do it.

 

> and for 30 minutes (or less) at the end of the hike.

 

Not included as a part of the official event. No.

 

> One can also come up with more waypoints. This of course very well allows for doing this with the real intent of going for a geocaching group hunt.

 

The event is not the hunt. The event is what takes place at the posted coordinates. AND if the reviewer feels that the event's actual intent is for group caching, they may well decide not to publish it. That's their judgement. Even if it falls in line with the rules for a listing. Because one of the guidelines is that events are not to be used as group caching events. So it comes down to how the event creator words the event listing, and whether they're being sincere and honest about their intentions for the event. And that's a judgement call up to the reviewer, which, as usual, is appealable if you disagree.

 

> None of the hiking events I participated in was used for a geocaching group hunt.

 

Too bad then that those who did abuse the events for that purpose have ruined it for everyone who wanted to do legitimate hiking events. That's unfortunately no longer the case. As I said, I sympathize. But that's the way that things are now.

 

> Given that multiple waypoints are possible as long as what happens at the waypoints is stationary

 

I don't think that's a requirement at all. Additional waypoints are optional. What happens at additional waypoints is not restricted like the posted coordinates. The requirement is that the event takes place at the posted coordinates. You can very easily add additional waypoints for things like trailheads, or additional meeting points for other activities taking place throughout the day. As long as the posted coordinates is where someone will be for the duration of the listed event for a minimum of 30 minutes.

Do you comprehend yet? Probably not.

 

> all arguments provided in this thread pro the event guidelines do not make any sense.

 

I'm sorry you feel that way. There's no other way to describe them. They are what they are. We've given examples to help explain them. You still don't get it though. I don't know what else can be said. Because everything is simply being re-stated, over and over again.

 

 

> The guidelines are simply not consistent and favour some activities over others.

 

The guidelines for Event Listings are consistent, and yes, they implicitly favour some activity types over others.

 

> No, they neither explained nor defended it.

 

Yes. They have explained it and defended it. You just don't want to accept it. (or unfortunately can't grasp it for lack of understanding, whether due to language or otherwise)

 

> The hiking events which are not feasible fulfill all this.

 

No they do not. Hiking activities are moving activities which are not allowed as defining an Event Listing. They can be an optional activity beyond the static Event Listing.

 

> A quiz event at a restaurant does not and is publishable.

 

It does. It is static. It is at the posted coordinates. It is geocaching related. It is publishable if it is at least 30 minutes long. It could even be followed by a hike.

 

> They managed to publish events of the type I have in mind for many, many years and so their usage of event included something which moved.

 

And this is no longer the case.

Rule changes tend to do this.

 

> the fact that they now allow multiple waypoints demonstrates that the event can stretch over time and is not taking necessarily place at one single place

 

Wrong. The event does take place at one single place. At the posted coordinates. Additional waypoints are informational and optional, on top of, or as part of the event taking place at the posted coordinates.

 

> I've always thought of e.g. a day excursion of a company or school class as an event and not only breakfast, the lunch breaks and dinner.

 

This would not be allowed if you were requiring attendance at all three locations. You would need to select one of the meals, post the listed Event coordinates at that location and provide a period of time one can visit and Attend. You could also provide additional coordinates and times and encourage people to be there for those meals as well, but the only legitimate Attended logs could be posted by those who were in attendance at the posted coordinates during its announced period of time (if the event owner chose to enforce that logging guideline).

 

>> I fail to see how GS is saying a meet-up at a restaurant is more valid than a hike.

> The meet-up at a stationary location is part of an official geocaching event, the hike is not.

 

That is not a statement of geocaching validity. It is a statement of what is allowable for a Geocaching.com Event Listing. DO the hike. But you cannot have the hike with its moving location as a required element in order to 'Attend' the (Single Location Stationary 30-minute-minimum Geocaching.com) Event Listing.

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I'll say it.

 

It's not a "workaround". It's what you do if you want to meet the guidelines and have the event include activities which might take you away from the listed coordinates.

 

If you want to include a "hike" address the guidelines with how you write your event listing.

 

Groundspeak and all the people here with an opinion apart from yours, cezanne, are not trying to assign "value" to a hike versus a pizza parlor. A hike will be just as valid as anything else...so long as you meet the guidelines. We've shown over and over and over and over and over how you can still have your cake and eat it too, but that doesn't "convince" you for some reason. And we may never "convince" you. To that end, let's just drop it. You've been provided all of the options, and even the opportunity to 1. create your own event as you would like to see if it can be published and, 2. contact TPTB in the suggestion thread of the forums to suggest your moving event idea.

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Here they simple imply that hiking, paddle, or any activity that doesn't stay in one place isn't socializing.

I don't get that from them at all.

They have said that geocaching events are to promote socializing and be geocaching-related. That's not a negative statement about anything not allowed as a geocaching event. I think it's ridiculous to think that Groundspeak somehow now feels that moving events are not socializing or geocaching-related. The key point is that those are moving events, and the reason they are disallowed is because it's been abused to create group caching events, which they do not want to allow - even though there have been legitimate hiking and other moving-activity geocaching events. But because they can't control what actually happens during an event, only what the host intends and announces in the listing with the presumption that they are being honest, they tightened the rules about what constitutes an official event. That means, in dissuading event listings that are abuses of freedom, it may also adversely affect legitimate events that weren't abusing said freedom.

But it's a cost they apparently were willing to accept.

 

The world doesn't end. But when guidelines restrict or treats unfairly what a substantial number of geocachers view as a legitimate cache or event

...and yet those activities can still be done - just not required in order to receive your coveted find smiley.

That's the only issue here. Nothing is being restricted, only what constitutes an event listing, which awards Attendees with a Smiley.

All those acitivities can still be done.

 

Perhaps someone from Grounspeak is listening, or perhaps they get annoyed by someone using certain acronyms or speculating on the real reason for the change :unsure:. For sure there will always be people who simply accept Groundspeak's decision and feel its their job to object to the critics.

As I've said many times, I'm all for discussion and improvement, but there's a line between that and constant complaining with no effort to seek a solution. Key: constant. Everyone has the right to post whatever they want within the forum guidelines. Everyone has an opinion. But threads become like this one when people simply cannot accept any resolution, nor present any of their own beyond their stationary position. And continue to argue it. It's frustrating, and this is one of the reasons that fewer staff ever visit the forums.

Ultimately, it does a disservice to those who do want to respectably find solutions and move forward while recognizing that Groundspeak is the authority and makes the final decisions.

 

It's not simply bowing and accepting whatever decisions TPTB make. It's about being reasonable and rational and humble given the context that we are customers using a listing service managed and controlled by a private entity. It is in their best interest to listen to us, but it's not in the community's best interest to cause them to have no desire to listen.

 

We all agree that under the new guidelines you can still have a hiking activity. We all agree that by adding a 1/2 hour activity that does stay in one place you can get the event listed. It seems legitimate to ask Groundspeak to review the impact of all the guidelines on events that previously got published, that people enjoyed, and that facilitated socialization in many cases better that the traditional pizza and beer event.

 

This! Yes! (the first part, I'd like to hear cezanne agree)

Now if cezanne can echo that sincerely and mean the bold part, and act accordingly in the forum, then I, for one, would be satisfied.

 

But first note: Groundspeak has already experimented with one solution to the issue of moving events - the temporary beta testing of group caching events. If those ever get implemented, then I'm confident in saying that moving events like hikes and rafting trips will be publishable, likely with some minor wording stipulations.

Edited by thebruce0
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> when they reformulated the event guidelines to allow multiple waypoints and activities as long as they are stationary at the waypoints, they turned this sort of argument into something absurd.

 

You think they're absurd. The rules make logical sense. You just don't like the reasoning. Bummer, eh?

 

Of course it is absurd to have rules that allow for 100 waypoints spaced each 100m from each other and spending 30 minutes at the first and the last and 1 minute at the middle 98 ones while not allowing an event to move over 10km continously. I did not say that something will submit a discretized event of the first kind, but it fulfills the guidelines in every respect. If you want you can include a different activity at each of the waypoints.

 

If you take an example with a smaller number of waypoints you could also have a 30 minutes interval at each of them.

 

 

 

If an event host wanted to do that, then yes. If the reviewer felt that it was an event sufficient and worthy of publishing as a Geocaching event, then yes.

 

That's exactly the point: If the reviewers take into account what they regard as worthy, then we do not need rules that forbid flash mobs etc

The rules seem to be an attempt to provide the reviewers with something where it is as clear as possible whether the event is publishable or not regardless of whether an event (or other cache) is worthy to be published.

 

 

> for 30 minutes at a restaurant along a hike (or even less of that's not the posted coordinates)

 

If an event host wanted to do that, then yes - the event would be the 30 minutes at the restaurant. Regardless of the hike, the host may entice people to do it, but not require them to do it.

 

I did not say anything about requirements and logging rules. It was about comparing a continuous approach with a discrete one, see what I wrote above.

 

> and for 30 minutes (or less) at the end of the hike.

 

Not included as a part of the official event. No.

 

Yes, of course, I understood it in the way that wherever you show up, it has to be counted as attended.

 

For example, consider the following situation: The organizers want to submit and get published two events:

One in lecture room A of the local high school where cachers are provided with a seminar on GSAK (say from 9am to 11 am) followed by a traditional meet and greet at

the local village restaurant (500m from the school) from 11:30 am to 4 pm. Until recently this got through as two independent events while now it has to be submitted as a single

event with an additional waypoint and the cachers can choose whether they are present at both places or only one of them.

 

What I wrote about is playing this game with more than 2 locations. It does not mean that I think that having an event with 10 locations in sequence makes much sense - it should explain why I think that

the new rules are simply not well thought up and are not as reasonable as some here suggest.

 

Hiking from A to B is a much more natural concept than having three meeting points and times along the way.

 

 

> One can also come up with more waypoints. This of course very well allows for doing this with the real intent of going for a geocaching group hunt.

 

The event is not the hunt. The event is what takes place at the posted coordinates. AND if the reviewer feels that the event's actual intent is for group caching, they may well decide not to publish it. That's their judgement. Even if it falls in line with the rules for a listing. Because one of the guidelines is that events are not to be used as group caching events. So it comes down to how the event creator words the event listing, and whether they're being sincere and honest about their intentions for the event. And that's a judgement call up to the reviewer, which, as usual, is appealable if you disagree.

 

Apparently you did not understand my argument. When the reviewer has the feeling that then intent is a group geocache hunt, he/she can deny (or should be allowed to deny) the publication regardless of whether it's a moving event or whether an event with one or 100 meetings points and times along the way. Some people here argued that moving events are not allowed as they are abused for group hunts.

I do not see why this should be any more the case than if the workaround is used. In my personal experience, hiking events are attended by people who like hiking and geocache hunts are there much less in the focus than on most other events I attended.

 

 

> Given that multiple waypoints are possible as long as what happens at the waypoints is stationary

 

I don't think that's a requirement at all. Additional waypoints are optional. What happens at additional waypoints is not restricted like the posted coordinates. The requirement is that the event takes place at the posted coordinates. You can very easily add additional waypoints for things like trailheads, or additional meeting points for other activities taking place throughout the day. As long as the posted coordinates is where someone will be for the duration of the listed event for a minimum of 30 minutes.

Do you comprehend yet? Probably not.

 

Are you sure that someone can be denied an attended log if he/she only is present at some of the alternative waypoints at the given time?

 

Of course alternative points are optional.

 

I'm sorry you feel that way. There's no other way to describe them. They are what they are. We've given examples to help explain them. You still don't get it though. I don't know what else can be said. Because everything is simply being re-stated, over and over again.

 

You do exactly the same. Toz and NiraD apparently are also not satisfied by what came as as arguments.

 

 

No they do not. Hiking activities are moving activities which are not allowed as defining an Event Listing. They can be an optional activity beyond the static Event Listing.

 

Of course hiking events that last for several hours fullill the socializing requirement. I did not say that they fulfill the current guidelines.

 

 

> A quiz event at a restaurant does not and is publishable.

 

It does. It is static. It is at the posted coordinates. It is geocaching related. It is publishable if it is at least 30 minutes long. It could even be followed by a hike.

 

It is not at all geocaching related - otherwise all in life is geocaching related. It's not communicative at all.

 

This would not be allowed if you were requiring attendance at all three locations. You would need to select one of the meals, post the listed Event coordinates at that location and provide a period of time one can visit and Attend. You could also provide additional coordinates and times and encourage people to be there for those meals as well, but the only legitimate Attended logs could be posted by those who were in attendance at the posted coordinates during its announced period of time (if the event owner chose to enforce that logging guideline).

 

No, that's not true due to the way they tried to get rid of event stacking. You cannot require that they are all present at all 3 places, but they can choose where they attend (and they also could leave after 1 minute).

Edited by cezanne
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