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Groundspeaks lays down some event time rules...


ArtieD
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No. You CAN go walk around. You can still hike, bike, run, raft, ride a train, or play leapfrog. Nothing is stopping you.

 

But the rule that what Groundspeak sees as event has to last at least 30 minutes means that one needs to stand and sit around for 30 minutes. Quite a waste of time for an event organizer and for event attendees who prefer other modes for socializing.

 

I still think that the combination of the two rules is unfortunate.

 

If one is forced to have this sedentary part, it could as well be as short as possible.

 

If what you're trying to do is go geocaching with friends, then go geocaching with friends. That is not, and has never been, what an event is.

Just a few years ago, didn't Groundspeak have a trial period of events designed for caching in your Country?

I remember a lackey saying it turned out well and we may look for them to be allowed in the future elsewhere.

Of course since it turned out well, we never heard back... :laughing:

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If what you're trying to do is go geocaching with friends, then go geocaching with friends. That is not, and has never been, what an event is.

 

No, it is not geocaching what I have in mind and I did not mention anything about friends.

 

There are activities that in my opinion should have the same value than sitting/standing around and I stick to that regardless of whether or not it's an activity I enjoy.

 

Moving with inline skates from A to B and socializing in the course of it is not different for me from sitting around at location X and socialising when it comes to socializing with other geocachers.

If the sedentary part is compulsory, it could at least be as short as possible. It does not make sense to me to claim that it should last at least for 30 minutes for a normal event in order to allow socializing when the socializing is intended to take part in the non sedentary part.

Edited by cezanne
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Is the social aspect of geocaching drinking a beer, or is it going out and finding caches? I think I now know what Groundspeak thinks it is.

 

It's definitely sitting or standing around and eat and drink. One cannot even go out and walk around (with no cache searching at all) for what an event means to Groundspeak.

 

My interpretation of Groundspeaks response regarding events is that geocaching events are about geocaching, not for geocaching.

Edited by NYPaddleCacher
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You DO realize how short 30 minutes is, right? :unsure:

 

With respect to something unwanted it is not short.

 

If you want to start out for a hike, go ice skating, go for a paddle trip, waiting for 30 minutes and reducing the event to the most boring part is somehow not my idea of an event.

If for some reason one ends up with vaing to wait for 30 minutes until everyone arrives, this is typically annoying for the participants for an activity and the same holds true here.

 

I just do not a see a single reason for combing the two rules with one another. So what is the rationale behind in your opinion? Do not reply with the rules are like that. I ask why does nit make sense to set up the rules in exacty this manner for every event?

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Is the social aspect of geocaching drinking a beer, or is it going out and finding caches? I think I now know what Groundspeak thinks it is.

 

It's definitely sitting or standing around and eat and drink. One cannot even go out and walk around (with no cache searching at all) for what an event means to Groundspeak.

 

My interpretation of Groundspeaks response regarding events is that geocaching events are about geocaching, not for geocaching.

 

So you think that hiking, paddling, ice skating and talking about geocaching is geocaching and sitting around and eating and talking about geocaching is about geocaching?

I cannot follow this weird kind of logic, sorry.

Edited by cezanne
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You DO realize how short 30 minutes is, right? :unsure:

 

With respect to something unwanted it is not short.

 

If you want to start out for a hike, go ice skating, go for a paddle trip, waiting for 30 minutes and reducing the event to the most boring part is somehow not my idea of an event.

If for some reason one ends up with vaing to wait for 30 minutes until everyone arrives, this is typically annoying for the participants for an activity and the same holds true here.

 

I just do not a see a single reason for combing the two rules with one another. So what is the rationale behind in your opinion? Do not reply with the rules are like that. I ask why does nit make sense to set up the rules in exacty this manner for every event?

You're trying to tell me that you've got people so punctual that one would not need 30 minutes to allow people to gather, meet, greet, discuss, and perhaps chat about geocaching--the one thing that you all have in common before heading out to do something else less...sedentary?

 

I'm sorry, but I really don't see the inconvenience of having a start time and an end time 30 minutes later, even if we're gathering at the coordinates to go for a hike or paddle. If I say noon, someone will still not be there at 12:15pm for some reason. That means I've only got to "suffer" for 15 minutes longer to meet the guideline expectation for Groundspeak's Geocaching.com Events. If you can't invest 30 minutes of your time to host an event, perhaps you shouldn't be hosting an event?

 

Also, you could set the time for, say, 5 hours of duration. People can come early to meet and greet, show up during the timeframe and join in, and/or meet at the trailhead at the end to meet and greet again. But, you'd have to be prepared as the host of the event to have people show up "late" for the departure, and still log an "attended" for the event.

 

Me, I wouldn't have a problem whatsoever with that. But then again, I don't seek ways to control how others play the game like SOME people do. :ph34r:

Edited by NeverSummer
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You're trying to tell me that you've got people so punctual that one would not need 30 minutes to allow people to gather, meet, greet, discuss, and perhaps chat about geocaching--the one thing that you all have in common?

 

Yes, whenever I participated in such events over the years, I never had to wait for 30 minutes.

In very few cases someone came late and then rushed to catch up.

 

I'm sorry, but I really don't see the inconvenience of having a start time and an end time 30 minutes later, even if we're gathering at the coordinates to go for a hike or paddle.

 

I asked why it makes sense to enforce such a requirement and declare the waiting time as the event.

Whoever wants to have an event like that with 30 minutes waiting time, could have it also in a more flexible system.

 

But, you'd have to be prepared as the host of the event to have people show up "late" for the departure, and still log an "attended" for the event.

 

If the whole world writes attended logs, that's not what I care about. People can show up late for the departure, but then they have to catch up and deal with the issue and it's not the obligation of the

organizer to wait in my opinion. He can wait if he expects certain people and wants to wait for them, but that's something different.

 

Me, I wouldn't have a problem whatsoever with that. But then again, I don't seek ways to control how others play the game like SOME people do. :ph34r:

 

Apparently this control type of argument is one you seem to like. The question that I asked why it is reasonable to come up with such rules when it comes to socializing is in no relation whatseover to controlling someone. It's rather that Groundspeak in a way controls how an event has to look like.

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You're trying to tell me that you've got people so punctual that one would not need 30 minutes to allow people to gather, meet, greet, discuss, and perhaps chat about geocaching--the one thing that you all have in common?

 

Yes, whenever I participated in such events over the years, I never had to wait for 30 minutes.

In very few cases someone came late and then rushed to catch up.

 

I'm sorry, but I really don't see the inconvenience of having a start time and an end time 30 minutes later, even if we're gathering at the coordinates to go for a hike or paddle.

 

I asked why it makes sense to enforce such a requirement and declare the waiting time as the event.

Whoever wants to have an event like that with 30 minutes waiting time, could have it also in a more flexible system.

Well, you can be a pessimist and call it "waiting", or you can call it the actual Event. If you and and your buddies are chomping at the bit to get going so hurriedly, than GO! Also, you don't have to host an event if you don't like "waiting" or investing 30 minutes back to the game and socializing with other geocachers.

 

But, you'd have to be prepared as the host of the event to have people show up "late" for the departure, and still log an "attended" for the event.

 

If the whole world writes attended logs, that's not what I care about. People can show up late for the departure, but then they have to catch up and deal with the issue and it's not the obligation of the

organizer to wait in my opinion. He can wait if he expects certain people and wants to wait for them, but that's something different.

Um, yup. You're right. You don't have to wait for people as an organizer. But you do have to abide by the duration guidelines to publish an event on Geocaching.com.

 

Me, I wouldn't have a problem whatsoever with that. But then again, I don't seek ways to control how others play the game like SOME people do. :ph34r:

 

Apparently this control type of argument is one you seem to like. The question that I asked why it is reasonable to come up with such rules when it comes to socializing is in no relation whatseover to controlling someone. It's rather that Groundspeak in a way controls how an event has to look like.

I like? Oh, come on. Seriously?

 

Groundspeak gets to call the shots because you have chosen to play here.

 

I think the rationale for the guideline clarification and change is apparent. You don't have to like it, but you just have to abide by it to participate in the game here on Geocaching.com.

 

I have a very, very, very simple option for you, cezanne, if you don't like the new guideline: Don't host an event. :anicute:

Edited by NeverSummer
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Well, you can be a pessimist and call it "waiting", or you can call it the actual Event.

 

Calling it the actual event means to me forcing people to declare what will be the most boring part to some as the actual event.

To me the whole thing conveys the message actual events are something extremely boring.

 

Also, you don't have to host an event if you don't like "waiting" or investing 30 minutes back to the game and socializing with other geocachers.

 

Tell me why spending 30 sedentary minutes is investing into the game and is socializing with other geocachers and why walking around with the other geocachers

is not at least as valuable in the sense of investing into the game and socializing with them?

An event organizer could sit around for 30 minutes and do not socialize and it would be fine for Groundspeak.

He/she could walk around and socialize for 5 hours and it would not be fine for Groundspeak. Not logical to me.

 

I just do not get it.

 

You don't have to wait for people as an organizer. But you do have to abide by the duration guidelines to publish an event on Geocaching.com.

 

Yes, I never questioned that. I just asked why this very combination of two rules makes sense when socializing is the argument.

 

I think the rationale for the guideline clarification and change is apparent.

You don't have to like it, but you just have to abide by it to participate in the game here on Geocaching.com.

 

It is not at all apparent to me and that's why I asked. My question was not about liking something.

Groundspeak is also free to come up with completely irrational rules as it is their site.

 

You seem to think that the rules are reasonable. So explain me why if you can. I like to understand things - I'm already aware of the fact that

nonone needs to organize an event.

Edited by cezanne
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No. You CAN go walk around. You can still hike, bike, run, raft, ride a train, or play leapfrog. Nothing is stopping you.

 

But the rule that what Groundspeak sees as event has to last at least 30 minutes means that one needs to stand and sit around for 30 minutes. Quite a waste of time for an event organizer and for event attendees who prefer other modes for socializing.

 

I still think that the combination of the two rules is unfortunate.

 

If one is forced to have this sedentary part, it could as well be as short as possible.

 

If what you're trying to do is go geocaching with friends, then go geocaching with friends. That is not, and has never been, what an event is.

Just a few years ago, didn't Groundspeak have a trial period of events designed for caching in your Country?

I remember a lackey saying it turned out well and we may look for them to be allowed in the future elsewhere.

Of course since it turned out well, we never heard back... :laughing:

Found it myself...Organized Group Hunts

- And along with the Lackey note here. :)

Edited by cerberus1
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I think the rationale for the guideline clarification and change is apparent.

You don't have to like it, but you just have to abide by it to participate in the game here on Geocaching.com.

 

It is not at all apparent to me and that's why I asked. My question was not about liking something.

Groundspeak is also free to come up with completely irrational rules as it is their site.

 

You seem to think that the rules are reasonable. So explain me why if you can. I like to understand things - I'm already aware of the fact that

nonone needs to organize an event.

My opinion that the guidelines are reasonable isn't all that controversial. I could go on and on about why I personally believe that events should be held to a higher standard for duration than the "5-minute flash mob" or an event where nobody really is there to make it happen. But that's not the point.

 

I think that you need to ask a Lackey, cezanne, about why they made the decision. I think it all makes perfect sense, and I think that you need to do the work to understand why Groundspeak chose to clarify and amend this way.

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My opinion that the guidelines are reasonable isn't all that controversial. I could go on and on about why I personally believe that events should be held to a higher standard for duration than the "5-minute flash mob" or an event where nobody really is there to make it happen. But that's not the point.

 

Wait a moment. I never asked why an event consisting of only a 5 minutes flash mob does not make much sense. I asked why you think that the combination of the two rules of having a lower limit for the duration and at the same time

force actual events to be the part taking place at a fixed location makes sense.

 

The answer to the original question of Toz and myself is even less apparent to me: Why is socializing an argument in favor of a 30 minutes sedentary event over an event consisting of say a 5 minutes meeting period and a moving activity of 5 hours?

Edited by cezanne
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Groundspeak gets to call the shots because you have chosen to play here.

Let's not have a forum then. Groundspeak calls the shots, no further discussion. <_<

 

I think the rationale for the guideline clarification and change is apparent. You don't have to like it, but you just have to abide by it to participate in the game here on Geocaching.com.

What is apparent is that somebody at Groundspeak decided that the event has to be half an hour for geocachers to be able to socialize. This is an arbitrary number - like 161 meters. There are those who may feel you can socialize in less time, and certainly that a short flash mob event may facilitate socializing that occurs over a longer period than just the event.

 

cezanne also has the problem that the way the guidelines are written the "event" itself has to be at the posted location for at least the half an hour. That means someone is at the posted location for the entire time at least to let people who show up know they have attended the event. If there are other activities, some people may not be able to participate as someone needs to be at the "event". There may be a reason for this. It's called the WIGAS point. Groundspeak is now creating guidelines for when you can log a WIGAS (and when the cache owner can delete it). Perhaps what they want to say that anybody who shows up at the coordinates between the start time and end time can log "attended". You can't require they sign a log, and you can't require they participate in any activities beyond showing up. Even if they don't drink beer, they can still log "attended".

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My opinion that the guidelines are reasonable isn't all that controversial. I could go on and on about why I personally believe that events should be held to a higher standard for duration than the "5-minute flash mob" or an event where nobody really is there to make it happen. But that's not the point.

 

Wait a moment. I never asked why an event consisting of only a 5 minutes flash mob does not make much sense. I asked why you think that the combination of the two rules of having a lower limit for the duration and at the same time

force actual events to be the part taking place at a fixed location makes sense.

 

The answer to the original question of Toz and myself is even less apparent to me: Why is socializing an argument in favor of a 30 minutes sedentary event over an event consisting of say a 5 minutes meeting period and a moving activity of 5 hours?

No, you asked me my opinion about why I think the guidelines are apparent for why there was a clarification/change. I gave you a partial response, but also stopped short because I knew it was pointless to discuss with you based on this, and other topics about events where you've been arguing your opinion against the guidelines.

 

Groundspeak gets to call the shots because you have chosen to play here.

Let's not have a forum then. Groundspeak calls the shots, no further discussion. <_<

Not at all what I'm trying to say--don't create hyperbole; you're taking me completely out of context.

 

I think the rationale for the guideline clarification and change is apparent. You don't have to like it, but you just have to abide by it to participate in the game here on Geocaching.com.

What is apparent is that somebody at Groundspeak decided that the event has to be half an hour for geocachers to be able to socialize. This is an arbitrary number - like 161 meters. There are those who may feel you can socialize in less time, and certainly that a short flash mob event may facilitate socializing that occurs over a longer period than just the event.

 

cezanne also has the problem that the way the guidelines are written the "event" itself has to be at the posted location for at least the half an hour. That means someone is at the posted location for the entire time at least to let people who show up know they have attended the event. If there are other activities, some people may not be able to participate as someone needs to be at the "event". There may be a reason for this. It's called the WIGAS point. Groundspeak is now creating guidelines for when you can log a WIGAS (and when the cache owner can delete it). Perhaps what they want to say that anybody who shows up at the coordinates between the start time and end time can log "attended". You can't require they sign a log, and you can't require they participate in any activities beyond showing up. Even if they don't drink beer, they can still log "attended".

Sure, that's one (pessimistic) way to look at it.

 

The fact of the matter is that you can still do things, and you can still host and attend "official" Groudspeak/Geocaching.com events.

 

IMHO, what this has done is make it more clear that things like a 5-minute flashmob are not the intent of the event cache type on this website. I think that enough versions of this WIGAS option have been created that they finally decided to do something about it so that you can't just have a random event with no social aspect built in.

 

Really, how many "flash mobs" are more than just being at the coords at a set time and then leaving quickly after. People could create as many of those as they wanted, and people could drive-by log. Others could claim an "attended" without actually attending.

 

Now, to solve the angst that cezanne is having, they could just work with a Reviewer to find a way to host the event type they want within the bounds of the Guidelines. I'll bet there's a way to make it work to have a "hike" be part of the event while also meeting the location and duration requirements, but I also doubt that cezanne will put in the effort to create such an event because it would mean doing work.

Edited by NeverSummer
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<paraphrased>How does...the combination of the two rules of having a lower limit for the duration(30 minutes), and at the same time taking place at a fixed location...make sense?

Well, this is a location-based game. People need to have a place to set their GPS to for an event, and they need to be able to find the event at the listed time.

 

A "fixed location" makes sense because of what this game is, and that events are, at their most simplistic, a gathering of geocachers together to socialize.

 

Events can go beyond that level: They can be Block Party-style bonanzas. They can be Geowoodstock parties with a zillion things going on. But they all occur at one spot, and at a designated time.

 

The lower bound for event timing is to allow more time to attend. I'm not sure of this, but I am pretty sure it is to move away from the "5-minute Flash Mob" event style that ends up just being a "WIGAS". This is, specifically, where a Lackey would be better prepared to talk about why the decision was made.

 

All I can say in this forum is that I agree with the decision to make events be 30 minutes or longer, CITO 1 hour or longer, etc. Abuses were happening more and more with having events serve as a quick-and-dirty "WIGAS" opportunity, and not what the Event Cache type was intended to be. At the rate Event Caches were going, I would have thought that either a duration and location requirements were necessary or a grandfathering and removal of the cache type were the options (ala Locationless and Virtuals, e.g.).

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Now, to solve the angst that cezanne is having, they could just work with a Reviewer to find a way to host the event type they want within the bounds of the Guidelines. I'll bet there's a way to make it work to have a "hike" be part of the event while also meeting the location and duration requirements, but I also doubt that cezanne will put in the effort to create such an event because it would mean doing work.

 

I dared to ask a question as I wanted to understand the rationale behind arguing with socializing with respect to the combination of two rules for events. Organizing an event in one or the other form does not contribute to making me understand what I questioned. Toz provided one possible explanation while you just told me things I have already been aware of before.

We all cannot know what has been Groundspeak's rationale. But so far I do not even get your rationale (for which Groundspeak and the fact that there may be workarounds etc does not play a role at all).

 

As the last part of your post is regarded, I wonder why you dare to make such statements without knowing me. Those knowing my caches know very well that it is not the work to be invested that keeps me from doing certain things.

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Now, to solve the angst that cezanne is having, they could just work with a Reviewer to find a way to host the event type they want within the bounds of the Guidelines. I'll bet there's a way to make it work to have a "hike" be part of the event while also meeting the location and duration requirements, but I also doubt that cezanne will put in the effort to create such an event because it would mean doing work.

 

I dared to ask a question as I wanted to understand the rationale behind arguing with socializing with respect to the combination of two rules for events. Organizing an event in one or the other form does not contribute to making me understand what I questioned. Toz provided one possible explanation while you just told me things I have already been aware of before.

We all cannot know what has been Groundspeak's rationale. But so far I do not even get your rationale (for which Groundspeak and the fact that there may be workarounds etc does not play a role at all).

 

As the last part of your post is regarded, I wonder why you dare to make such statements without knowing me. Those knowing my caches know very well that it is not the work to be invested that keeps me from doing certain things.

Fair enough.

 

Prove me wrong--put on an event where you've taken the time to work with a Reviewer to get what you want from that event: A hike instead of "just sitting at the coordinates for 30 minutes". Let us know how that effort went.

 

Also, reach out to a Lackey and get a response for why the 30-minute boundary was chosen for events. Post what you hear back from them.

 

And then please tell me what would be so hard about having an event where the 30 minute time requirement would be such a hardship to build into the other aspect(s) of an event you would like to create/attend. I still don't see what is so painful or difficult about having an event include time before, during, or after to allow the "socialization requirement" to be met for 30 minutes.

 

1. You can have the event be a mid-point lunch break on your hike.

2. You can have the event be a trailhead meeting and introduction session.

3. You can have the event be a trailhead/parking lot apres meeting with refreshments and debriefing

4. A combination of all of the above.

 

Is that really such a hardship?

Edited by NeverSummer
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<paraphrased>How does...the combination of the two rules of having a lower limit for the duration(30 minutes), and at the same time taking place at a fixed location...make sense?

Well, this is a location-based game. People need to have a place to set their GPS to for an event, and they need to be able to find the event at the listed time.

 

Which is clearly the case when the event starts at the trailhead of a hike (with given coordinates) at time x:00 and then the group starts together for place B.

 

I have often used my GPS-receiver to get to a trailhead. I never used it to navigate to a restaurant in a city - I always use the address for that purpose and everyone else does so as well.

 

Events can go beyond that level: They can be Block Party-style bonanzas. They can be Geowoodstock parties with a zillion things going on. But they all occur at one spot, and at a designated time.

 

All your examples are not very typical for real outdoor activities - it's more like a party (whether indoor or outdoor does not make a huge difference).

 

I do not understand why socializing is bound to a party style and why your meet and greet has to take place while standing or sitting around.

I find it so much more relaxing to talk when I'm allowed to move.

 

If I had to come up with event rules: I would allow events that move, but would not allow events that only take place for 5 minutes.

Edited by cezanne
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Events "stand on their own merit as an event meeting." Also, "If an event is already organized outside of the geocaching community or it will happen without a Geocaching.com listing, it is likely not an Event Cache."

 

Meaning, I think that you could classify a hike as something that would or could take place without an event listing, just as a football game or underwater basket-weaving competition.

 

"An event is a gathering of geocachers, facilitating the social aspect of geocaching. It is organized by geocachers and is open to other geocachers and those interested in learning about the game. It takes place at the posted coordinates, includes start and end times, and lasts at least 30 minutes. Events with several elements, a sequence of events, or events that are near the same time or location and intended for the same audience should be submitted as a single event. Additional waypoints may be added to the event listing for the locations of event activities."

 

I don't see what the problem is with adding a hike with additional waypoints, or as part of the event taking "place at the posted coordinates". An event can include other activities, but the event "itself" happens at the listed coordinates at the specified time. This is something, cezanne, we discussed in another similar thread.

 

ETA:

Here's an idea for that cache you should try to get published to prove the point: Event at X coordinates starts at 09:00 and is listed to go until 15:00. Additional Waypoints are added for a mid-way lunch meeting point at 12:30. People are welcome to come at any time, but the event "Ground Zero" is at the listed coordinates for the Event itself. If someone comes to the listed coordinates between 09:00 and 15:00, they've attended your event. As organizer, you're welcome to wait at the coordinates from 09:00 to 15:00, but I'll guess you want to go on the hike. So you do. Leave a flag on your car, or a "logbook" at the trailhead for those who miss the start and can't make the mid-way lunch break or the return meet-n-greet when everyone gets back to GZ.

 

See if you can get that published. I think you might be able to. But you'd have to do the work. :anibad:

Edited by NeverSummer
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Prove me wrong--put on an event where you've taken the time to work with a Reviewer to get what you want from that event: A hike instead of "just sitting at the coordinates for 30 minutes". Let us know how that effort went.

 

We both know that reviewers cannot intentionally break the guidelines. They can allow that a hike is involved, but still 30 sedentary minutes need to be spent somewhere.

 

I will not organize such an event, but not due to the involved work, but rather because being a good event host and my personality do not fit together and in the setting where it probably could work out at all it would need to involve physical movement (not because I enjoy it, but because I need it like I need sleep).

 

 

Also, reach out to a Lackey and get a response for why the 30-minute boundary was chosen for events.

 

You still did not get that this was not the gist of my question.

As a reply from a lackey is regarded, why couldn't they post it here?

 

I still don't see what is so painful or difficult about having an event include time before, during, or after to allow the "socialization requirement" to be met for 30 minutes.

 

Please explain me what a socialization requirement has to do with sitting and standing around. You all the time make it sound that one is not socializing when moving around.

 

Of course there are ways to combine standing around for 30 minutes with doing something else. But why is the something else not sufficient for sozializing?

What makes standing/sitting around so unique?

Edited by cezanne
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Events "stand on their own merit as an event meeting." Also, "If an event is already organized outside of the geocaching community or it will happen without a Geocaching.com listing, it is likely not an Event Cache."

 

Meaning, I think that you could classify a hike as something that would or could take place without an event listing, just as a football game or underwater basket-weaving competition.

 

Sitting in a restaurant and eating can be classified in the very same manner.

 

Here's an idea for that cache you should try to get published to prove the point: Event at X coordinates starts at 09:00 and is listed to go until 15:00. Additional Waypoints are added for a mid-way lunch meeting point at 12:30. People are welcome to come at any time, but the event "Ground Zero" is at the listed coordinates for the Event itself. If someone comes to the listed coordinates between 09:00 and 15:00, they've attended your event. As organizer, you're welcome to wait at the coordinates from 09:00 to 15:00, but I'll guess you want to go on the hike. So you do. Leave a flag on your car, or a "logbook" at the trailhead for those who miss the start and can't make the mid-way lunch break or the return meet-n-greet when everyone gets back to GZ.

 

See if you can get that published. I think you might be able to. But you'd have to do the work. :anibad:

 

I'd like to hear from a reviewer or lackey that such an event would be published. I very much doubt it if the event organizer is never present for at least 30 minutes at a fixed location within a fixed time interval.

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I still don't see what is so painful or difficult about having an event include time before, during, or after to allow the "socialization requirement" to be met for 30 minutes.

 

Please explain me what a socialization requirement has to do with sitting and standing around. You all the time make it sound that one is not socializing when moving around.

 

Of course there are ways to combine standing around for 30 minutes with doing something else. But why is the something else not sufficient for sozializing?

What makes standing/sitting around so unique?

Wow, your idea of an event is bo-ring! I'm still trying to imagine your event where people "sit or stand around" for 30 minutes. :unsure:

 

I'd guess that those 30 minutes would be filled with lively conversation, introductions, sharing of caching stories, and perhaps some other banter about the game. Then, there might be a few moments where the organizer gets everyone's attention to announce that those going for the hike should lace up their boots and zip up their jackets. Hardly just "sitting and standing around".

 

The idea that the event is found at coordinates is the "sitting and standing around" part to you. Those coordinates are where the event is happening (additional coordinates can be added for parts of the Event Cache listing...).

 

You're making this so, so much harder than it needs to be, and I can't fathom why. (Other than for arguments' sake?)

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ETA:

Here's an idea for that cache you should try to get published to prove the point: Event at X coordinates starts at 09:00 and is listed to go until 15:00. Additional Waypoints are added for a mid-way lunch meeting point at 12:30. People are welcome to come at any time, but the event "Ground Zero" is at the listed coordinates for the Event itself. If someone comes to the listed coordinates between 09:00 and 15:00, they've attended your event. As organizer, you're welcome to wait at the coordinates from 09:00 to 15:00, but I'll guess you want to go on the hike. So you do. Leave a flag on your car, or a "logbook" at the trailhead for those who miss the start and can't make the mid-way lunch break or the return meet-n-greet when everyone gets back to GZ.

As described, this event would not be publishable under the new guidelines.

 

A thirty minute event associated with the hike could be a trailhead meeting with safety talk, route description, TB exchange, prehike snack or other activities from 0830-0900, a prehike breakfast at a restaurant from 0830-0900, a meet-up at a carpool location from 0830-0900, or a posthike debrief at a restaurant/pub over a beverage of one's choice between 1500 and 1530.

Edited by Greatland Reviewer
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Events "stand on their own merit as an event meeting." Also, "If an event is already organized outside of the geocaching community or it will happen without a Geocaching.com listing, it is likely not an Event Cache."

 

Meaning, I think that you could classify a hike as something that would or could take place without an event listing, just as a football game or underwater basket-weaving competition.

 

Sitting in a restaurant and eating can be classified in the very same manner.

Not when the event isn't about just eating a meal, and it is instead about gathering people at coordinates to socialize in regards to the game of Geocaching.

 

Here's an idea for that cache you should try to get published to prove the point: Event at X coordinates starts at 09:00 and is listed to go until 15:00. Additional Waypoints are added for a mid-way lunch meeting point at 12:30. People are welcome to come at any time, but the event "Ground Zero" is at the listed coordinates for the Event itself. If someone comes to the listed coordinates between 09:00 and 15:00, they've attended your event. As organizer, you're welcome to wait at the coordinates from 09:00 to 15:00, but I'll guess you want to go on the hike. So you do. Leave a flag on your car, or a "logbook" at the trailhead for those who miss the start and can't make the mid-way lunch break or the return meet-n-greet when everyone gets back to GZ.

 

See if you can get that published. I think you might be able to. But you'd have to do the work. :anibad:

 

I'd like to hear from a reviewer or lackey that such an event would be published. I very much doubt it if the event organizer is never present for at least 30 minutes at a fixed location within a fixed time interval.

Riddle me this: CITO events have been going on for-eh-VER (Sandlot voice required), and I'm pretty sure that the organizers wander off to pick up trash, plant trees, or remove invasive species. I think you're covered, man... But to be safe--why don't you put in the work to create the event, or ask a Lackey or Reviewer, if you're so unsure!

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ETA:

Here's an idea for that cache you should try to get published to prove the point: Event at X coordinates starts at 09:00 and is listed to go until 15:00. Additional Waypoints are added for a mid-way lunch meeting point at 12:30. People are welcome to come at any time, but the event "Ground Zero" is at the listed coordinates for the Event itself. If someone comes to the listed coordinates between 09:00 and 15:00, they've attended your event. As organizer, you're welcome to wait at the coordinates from 09:00 to 15:00, but I'll guess you want to go on the hike. So you do. Leave a flag on your car, or a "logbook" at the trailhead for those who miss the start and can't make the mid-way lunch break or the return meet-n-greet when everyone gets back to GZ.

As described, this event would not be publishable under the new guidelines.

 

The thirty minute event associated with the hike could be a trailhead meeting with safety talk, route description, TB exchange, prehike snack or other activities from 0830-0900, a prehike breakfast at a restaurant from 0830-0900, a meet-up at a carpool location from 0830-0900, or a posthike debrief at a restaurant/pub over a beverage of one's choice between 1500 and 1530.

Excellent to see you chime in, GR. Thanks.

 

I'm not saying the hike is the event. Rather, I'm saying that the event has a hike as part of the event--not unlike other parts of events that have played out all over the world at "additional waypoints".

 

I have to ask (here, versus on a future Event Cache I might want to publish along the lines of SSOJoat's rafting trip last summer), why couldn't it be published? Is it because someone has to be present (the owner of the listing, or their proxy) for the duration of the event at the assigned coordinates? I don't see that outlined in the guidelines, and I also don't see how that's possible with a CITO event as I mention above.

 

If an event does not require a logbook, why would someone also have to serve as gatekeeper at GZ instead?

 

Thanks for any clarification; I welcome your feedback! :anicute:

 

ETA:

Assume that the owner of the listing for this hypothetical event is present at the coords for at least 30 minutes.

Edited by NeverSummer
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Very sorry about that. We had to roll back yesterday's site release due to some bugs that unexpectedly popped up. Which means the updated guidelines aren't appearing at the moment. Hope to have it rolled back out soon.

Oh, good. I thought I was just having trouble reading.

 

But the rule that what Groundspeak sees as event has to last at least 30 minutes means that one needs to stand and sit around for 30 minutes.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but from the discussion and the help page, I don't see a problem with a flashmob event where the flashmob, including the event organizer, comes and goes in 2 minutes. As far as I can see, the new rules only say that someone showing up 28 minutes later has to be allowed to log that they attended even though they didn't make it in time to flash with the mob. I'm I misreading something?

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Very sorry about that. We had to roll back yesterday's site release due to some bugs that unexpectedly popped up. Which means the updated guidelines aren't appearing at the moment. Hope to have it rolled back out soon.

Oh, good. I thought I was just having trouble reading.

 

But the rule that what Groundspeak sees as event has to last at least 30 minutes means that one needs to stand and sit around for 30 minutes.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but from the discussion and the help page, I don't see a problem with a flashmob event where the flashmob, including the event organizer, comes and goes in 2 minutes. As far as I can see, the new rules only say that someone showing up 28 minutes later has to be allowed to log that they attended even though they didn't make it in time to flash with the mob. I'm I misreading something?

An event is a gathering of geocachers, facilitating the social aspect of geocaching. It is organized by geocachers and is open to other geocachers and those interested in learning about the game. It takes place at the posted coordinates, includes start and end times, and lasts at least 30 minutes.

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Assume that the owner of the listing for this hypothetical event is present at the coords for at least 30 minutes.

This is all that is required. The Event page can then say something to the effect of, "after the event, please join us for a hike up Skyline Ridge or a raft trip down the Kenai River. Note that the float trip you referenced included the language "It is not mandatory that you buy passage on the charter rafts to participate in the event."

 

With respect to CITO Events, it may be necessary for someone to be at the posted coordinates for the full hour to check in cachers and to pass out gloves, garbage bags and to assign an area. This is necessary because of the transient nature of CITOs where cachers are expected to disperse to pick up garbage, remove invasive species, plant trees, or perform other community service.

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With respect to CITO Events, it may be necessary for someone to be at the posted coordinates for the full hour to check in cachers and to pass out gloves, garbage bags and to assign an area. This is necessary because of the transient nature of CITOs where cachers are expected to disperse to pick up garbage, remove invasive species, plant trees, or perform other community service.
I've been to CITO events where the organizer left a log and a supply of trash bags at the posted coordinates and then wandered off to help with the cleanup. It really isn't that confusing for late arrivals: sign the log, take a trash bag, and join the others who are already at work.
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With respect to CITO Events, it may be necessary for someone to be at the posted coordinates for the full hour to check in cachers and to pass out gloves, garbage bags and to assign an area. This is necessary because of the transient nature of CITOs where cachers are expected to disperse to pick up garbage, remove invasive species, plant trees, or perform other community service.
I've been to CITO events where the organizer left a log and a supply of trash bags at the posted coordinates and then wandered off to help with the cleanup. It really isn't that confusing for late arrivals: sign the log, take a trash bag, and join the others who are already at work.

Yes. That's why I used the word may. Conversely, there have been CITOs for instance, where cachers met at the posted coordinates, the Land Manager took the group to an isolated area for removal of invasive plant species, and late comers couldn't find the event. The situation will vary by CITO location and type of service project. The bare minimum for a CITO is to provide posted coordinates and a start time and end time that are at least 60 minutes apart. No signature of a log is required. Edited by Greatland Reviewer
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I'd guess that those 30 minutes would be filled with lively conversation, introductions, sharing of caching stories, and perhaps some other banter about the game.

The way this thread has been going, I can easily imagine 30 minutes spent with everyone complaining bitterly about Groundspeak rules.

I'm sure it has happened and will continue to happen. Edited by Greatland Reviewer
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[Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but from the discussion and the help page, I don't see a problem with a flashmob event where the flashmob, including the event organizer, comes and goes in 2 minutes. As far as I can see, the new rules only say that someone showing up 28 minutes later has to be allowed to log that they attended even though they didn't make it in time to flash with the mob. I'm I misreading something?

The slam dunk way to have a flash mob published will include something along the lines of "come join us for coffee and prizes at the posted coordinates between 0900 and 0930. From there, we will quickly travel to Waypoint A for a flashmob where we will sing a medley from "The Sound of Music."
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[Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but from the discussion and the help page, I don't see a problem with a flashmob event where the flashmob, including the event organizer, comes and goes in 2 minutes. As far as I can see, the new rules only say that someone showing up 28 minutes later has to be allowed to log that they attended even though they didn't make it in time to flash with the mob. I'm I misreading something?

The slam dunk way to have a flash mob published will include something along the lines of "come join us for coffee and prizes at the posted coordinates between 0900 and 0930. From there, we will quickly travel to Waypoint A for a flashmob where we will sing a medley from "The Sound of Music."

I want to be a part of that flash mob!

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30 minutes for an event is no big deal. A good event would be longer any way. I spent the last 30 minutes reading this thread, so it is not a long time. Many events are now just an excuse to do some group geocaching or to sign in at a fixed point and then go out geocaching. To me, that is really not an event, but rather it is an excuse for another smiley. Good events has stuff like food, drink, games, prizes, vendors, kids activities, and true socializing.The Hampton Roads Geocachers put on a good mega event like this. But something simple like meeting at a clubhouse or restaurant works too.

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If what you're trying to do is go geocaching with friends, then go geocaching with friends. That is not, and has never been, what an event is.

 

No, it is not geocaching what I have in mind and I did not mention anything about friends.

 

There are activities that in my opinion should have the same value than sitting/standing around and I stick to that regardless of whether or not it's an activity I enjoy.

 

Moving with inline skates from A to B and socializing in the course of it is not different for me from sitting around at location X and socialising when it comes to socializing with other geocachers.

If the sedentary part is compulsory, it could at least be as short as possible. It does not make sense to me to claim that it should last at least for 30 minutes for a normal event in order to allow socializing when the socializing is intended to take part in the non sedentary part.

 

Cezanne, what you're writing here sounds like you are very much afraid that someone will strap you to a chair for 30 minutes or, in case of a cito for an hour. Calm down! I would think the cache owner should be available for the duration of 30 minutes, but you can leave after 5 minutes if you wish and go on a hike. You can also still organize a socializing, followed by a skating tour.

 

Actually, at least an hour for citos is a great improvement. In combination with a megaevent I've seen the saddest excuse for a cito ever. People came together, signed the log book, went to find some caches - which was the moment the organizers went mia. My friend and me tidied up the area for surely an hour, not that there was much to cito (the D5 cache nearby might have been the driver for this location) and found we were pretty much the only ones.

An hour means the organizers should stay there for an hour. It's not too long, really: waiting for people to arrive, giving a little speech, handing out materials and 30 minutes is probably gone already. Even an hour is not a lot of time to do some meaningful cleaning up.

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"An event is a gathering of geocachers, facilitating the social aspect of geocaching. It is organized by geocachers and is open to other geocachers and those interested in learning about the game. It takes place at the posted coordinates, includes start and end times, and lasts at least 30 minutes. Events with several elements, a sequence of events, or events that are near the same time or location and intended for the same audience should be submitted as a single event. Additional waypoints may be added to the event listing for the locations of event activities."

 

I don't see what, in this description, precludes a hike-type event with a structured agenda and additional waypoints.

 

Agenda:

 

9am to 9:10am Meet at trailhead. I realize this ten minutes of SEDENTARY behaviour will be horrible, but let's give the stragglers a fighting chance to get here before we head off.

 

9:10am to 9:30am Hike to Waypoint 2.

 

9:30am to 9:35am Five minute break to be sedentary and enjoy view from Waypoint 2.

 

Etc.

 

Alternatively:

 

Hiking Bonanza at Non-Sedentary Park, Germany

9am to 12pm

 

Main event held at Waypoint 1, trailhead.

 

Event attendees are free to hike or not hike throughout the gorgeous Non-Sedentary Park.

 

Sedentary event attendees are free to sit at the picnic tables and chat.

 

Or you can do both.

 

Also, there is frisbee over to the left of the picnic tables. And beer.

 

Event host 1 will lead hikes. Event host 2 will point you to the beer.

 

Woohoo!

Edited by narcissa
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"An event is a gathering of geocachers, facilitating the social aspect of geocaching. It is organized by geocachers and is open to other geocachers and those interested in learning about the game. It takes place at the posted coordinates, includes start and end times, and lasts at least 30 minutes. Events with several elements, a sequence of events, or events that are near the same time or location and intended for the same audience should be submitted as a single event. Additional waypoints may be added to the event listing for the locations of event activities."

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No matter the rationale, new guidelines always result in banning some sort of cache that is popular - at least for some segment of geocachers.

 

There were not always flash mob events, but I do recall some event that were very short. We met, perhaps we got a coffee, and then we were off for the day's adventure. Sure the events had some attendees who weren't going on the hike. They might hang around longer. Or they might do some urban caching or highway caching in the area.

 

I believe the Podcacher proposed the first flash mobs. They seem to be very popular. I suppose one reason may be that they leave more time to geocache than attending an event for the whole afternoon. You still had a few minutes to socialize (and as I stated above, that often was to find a group to cache with the rest of the day). Some people seem to be upset that those attending a flash mob event get a WIGAS point. I don't understand why they make a deal over this. Maybe they just like getting their knickers in a twist over silly things.

 

For a while it appeared that Groundspeak was all in favor of these short events. I suspect that in moderation there would have been no problem. If most events are the "traditional" type where you sit in one place and have a beer, then TPTB probably wouldn't mind a few flash mobs. It could be that in some areas the standard event has become the flash mob (and perhaps the standard geocache has become a nano). The change in the requirement is removing a popular option, maybe because it became too popular. I'm not sure what problem is solved. What could happen is that there will be a lot of half hour events. Maybe the host will show up at the appointed time to greet anyone who shows up. The people in the know will show up for the last five minutes and have their flash mob.

 

fizzymagic has good reason to worry an activity he likes will be taken away whenever people complain there are too many silly challenges. Some people like flash mobs. They certainly have a social aspect regardless of how you want to define socializing. But perhaps there just got to be too many of them. What will be banned next?

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I'm curious if there will be changes to what counts as an "attended". If people are still allowed to show up for 30 seconds and then leave, but still count it as "attended" than I really don't see how the rule change will have much of an effect. On the other hand, will event organizers be given leave to delete/police attended logs for folks that don't really stick around for the minimum duration? I don't see that happening either, especially for Mega events (requiring people to be there for 4 hours!). On first examination, the only thing that may have changed is what you are allowed to write on the listing itself. Maybe I'm just not thinking clearly though.

 

No, you've misunderstood the things.

 

The fact that the event should take at least 30 minutes means only that it should take at least 30 minutes, not that every participant should stay at least 30 minutes!

 

It's just like the fact that the physical cache should be placed for at least 3 months doesn't mean, you must visit it once again after 3 months or otherwise you log will be deleted!

 

That timelines are for owner, not for finders/attenders!

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An event is a gathering of geocachers, facilitating the social aspect of geocaching. It is organized by geocachers and is open to other geocachers and those interested in learning about the game. It takes place at the posted coordinates, includes start and end times, and lasts at least 30 minutes.

I understand that the event has to take place for 30 minutes, but I'm still not seeing anything that requires any individual to be there for the entire 30 minutes.

 

Assume that the owner of the listing for this hypothetical event is present at the coords for at least 30 minutes.

This is all that is required.

Oh, wait, this is an even bigger change than the time limit. Until now, the owner didn't have to attend for the event to be legitimate. Now if the owner doesn't show up, it doesn't count as an event? If he leaves early, is someone supposed to report it to the reviewer?

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I don't see what, in this description, precludes a hike-type event with a structured agenda and additional waypoints.

 

Keystone's reply makes it apparent that they require 30 minutes (I guess they mean contiguous 30 minutes) at the posted coordinates and apparently

this is also meant in the way that at least one event host or co-organizer has to be present. If I understand it correctly they would have an issue

with an event that moves and where 5 minutes are offered at location 1, 5 minutes at location 2, etc until to 5 minutes at location 6 where these locations are say each at least 1 km apart from each other.

 

I would not mind at all if there existed the chance to log attended also for those who not come for the group activity which starts without spending first 30 sedentary minutes.

The issue I have is however that the possible type of events is restricted considerably by these combination of rules.

 

It given standing/sitting around a much too high value with respect to geocaching in my opinion.

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Cezanne, what you're writing here sounds like you are very much afraid that someone will strap you to a chair for 30 minutes or, in case of a cito for an hour. Calm down! I would think the cache owner should be available for the duration of 30 minutes, but you can leave after 5 minutes if you wish and go on a hike. You can also still organize a socializing, followed by a skating tour.

 

I'm not concerned from the point of view of an event attendant - I have never attended an event only for 30 minutes, but I more and more decide not to visit events at all because the new events do not appeal that much too me. The organizers of the type of events I appreciate get seriously demotivated by such rules. Over the last 4 years what is possible for an event has considerable changed and almost every event has to be rewritten before it can go online - that demotivates event organizers and helps those who are tightly organized in closed facebook groups and things the like.

 

The issue I have is that what is taken as the actual event is the sedentary part and so the organizer is bound to spend this time in the required manner for at least 30 minutes which are a waste of time if the event is not intended as sitting around.

 

Your sentence "you can still organize a socializing, followed by a skating tour" makes me wonder how socializing is defined for you. It appears that something in my mindset apparently keeps me from understanding why socializing has to take place when standing or sitting around.

 

An hour means the organizers should stay there for an hour. It's not too long, really: waiting for people to arrive, giving a little speech, handing out materials and 30 minutes is probably gone already. Even an hour is not a lot of time to do some meaningful cleaning up.

 

Actually, my idea of a CITO is that everyone collects gargabe, including the organizers. Requiring them to wait for a hour for arriving people is ridiculous in my opinion and hardly less ridiculous than the situation that everyone including the organizers leave very quickly as they only care for the CITO icon on that day.

 

I do not see the role of an event organizer as a person sitting at the registration table of a conference, but it's exactly this type of impression that I more and more get from what Groundspeak is doing.

Edited by cezanne
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30 minutes for an event is no big deal. A good event would be longer any way. I spent the last 30 minutes reading this thread, so it is not a long time. Many events are now just an excuse to do some group geocaching or to sign in at a fixed point and then go out geocaching. To me, that is really not an event, but rather it is an excuse for another smiley. Good events has stuff like food, drink, games, prizes, vendors, kids activities, and true socializing.The Hampton Roads Geocachers put on a good mega event like this. But something simple like meeting at a clubhouse or restaurant works too.

 

Good events for me do not involve anything what you mentioned. I enjoy events the most where some outdoor physical activity takes place which is not geocaching. I do not even appreciate if new caches are hidden in connection with an event which are then visited by all attendants before or after their visit to the event.

 

I really wonder why some cachers apparently think that every event needs to be exactly as it is convenient for them. Who has the right to define what is true socializing? I'm neither interested into games, prizes, even less vendors nor kids activities at an event which pleases me. Do not misunderstand me: The events you like are great for their audience and I welcome that they exist. But I find it quite strange that every event has to appeal to the same kind of people.

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What do you think about new guideline requirements for minimum durations of event ?

(30 mins for event, 1 hour for Cito)

 

My personal opinion is: I've already been doing that...unless it was an official WWFM event - I basically already used those time frames for my events anyways, including the 31 Days of events I did for the month of August that one year - ea were at least 30mins long. Not to mention some of my events I even had (If I'm still there past the posted time frame, then the event is still going strong) I've had events that were 7-9pm posted , but I stayed till the pub closed and had people showing up till midnight for a few

Edited by Capt Biggins
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Conversely, there have been CITOs for instance, where cachers met at the posted coordinates, the Land Manager took the group to an isolated area for removal of invasive plant species, and late comers couldn't find the event.

 

My opinion on this is "Bad luck - next time they come earlier." They still could log an attended if they wish to do so and they could try to phone a participant to catch up if that much desired.

 

Having someone sitting for a full hour around and welcoming CITO participants is something crazy in my opinion and in no relation to the CITO idea. It's really punishing the organizer.

Edited by cezanne
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