Jump to content

Complaint from CO


neilo10

Recommended Posts

I had Occassion last week to go and find about 20 caches hidden by the one CO. On one of these we were rushed for time and simply wrote TFTC with the intentions of adding to the log later (which we did). I received an email from the CO to say that he expectedmore than the TFTC . I replied and said that we were doing the follow up at that time. He rudely sent me the etiquette of Caching to read. Didn't bother to reply.

Link to comment

I had Occassion last week to go and find about 20 caches hidden by the one CO. On one of these we were rushed for time and simply wrote TFTC with the intentions of adding to the log later (which we did). I received an email from the CO to say that he expectedmore than the TFTC . I replied and said that we were doing the follow up at that time. He rudely sent me the etiquette of Caching to read. Didn't bother to reply.

 

My log would have been changed to "TFC".

Link to comment

Cache owner is out of line.

 

That said, if your initial log is TFTC and later you add more, cache owner is probably not going to know that. There's no email notification of log edits. The log the cache owner is emailed is the TFTC log.

 

If you intend to write a something in a log, wait and do it when you have time to write. There's no benefit to logging something quick NOW, and editing later. This costs you more time, making the initial log and then revisiting for edits, and takes the fun out of the log entry for the CO.

 

And mostly, when people write "TFTC, more later", more later never comes.

 

I'd never harass a user for TFTC logs (for a time, it was possible to create totally blank logs from some phone apps, now there's a thrilling entry :blink: )

Link to comment

Anyway, there are many more CO,s out there so might just give this grumpy old men a miss in the future. I acknowledged his comment in the first place but certainly didn't appreciate being sent the link for the Etiquette .no need to be nasty about it.

 

Thanks for all your comments.

Link to comment

The cache owner was out of line. And a control freak, apparently.

 

I'm not thrilled by logs that just say "tftc" or ".", but I don't feel I have any right to harass people to post longer logs.

 

If it was me that got a snarky email like that, I would turn all my logs on his caches into ones that just say "."

 

 

B.

Link to comment

I had Occassion last week to go and find about 20 caches hidden by the one CO. On one of these we were rushed for time and simply wrote TFTC with the intentions of adding to the log later (which we did). I received an email from the CO to say that he expectedmore than the TFTC . I replied and said that we were doing the follow up at that time. He rudely sent me the etiquette of Caching to read. Didn't bother to reply.

 

As a CO of 3 caches I have no problem with short logs. All my caches can be done as drive-bys, so I am not expecting a long essay.

 

The abovementioned CO can always archive his caches if he thinks the finders aren't grateful enough. I once logged a cache where the CO was threatening to do just that if people persisted in writing TFTC.

Link to comment

Depending on how much snark I was feeling at the time, I probably would have ante'd up their link to the cache etiquette page with the following apparent Guideline violation:

 

For physical caches all logging requirements beyond finding the cache and signing the log are considered additional logging requirements (ALRs) and must be optional.

 

I'm assuming that offline ALR enforcement would get the same warm reception from Groundspeak/Reviewers as if it were stated on the Listing page.

Link to comment

Okay, thanks. I'm not nasty so won't go back into the 20 caches but am tempted. Haha

 

Thanks everyone.

 

Have a great day or night which ever is appropriate.

 

Bye and happy caching .

 

Does that mean you're not coming back? Because it's kind of hard to defend the CO in this case, but those who know me, or my posting stance on lame logs, can probably guess that I'm going to. :laughing:

 

You say you're not new to this, but you pretty much are. Your earliest logs are "that's one more find for me, thanks so much for hiding this geocache", which isn't even a log you typed yourself, but the (since removed) standard log from the intro to Geocaching app. Here's a cache with 11 favorites points that you logged with 2 words, "nice hide".

 

The cache owner here seems to be frustrated by the proliferation of lame logging, which almost always comes from people thumbing out a couple words or an acronym from smartphones at the cache site. Once upon a time, namely from 2000-2009, everyone went home to a computer to log their finds, and "Tftc" logging was extremely rare. At the very least, you now know that many people who hide caches for others to find (and you have not), would like to see more than 2 words or an acronym for a Geocaching log. Despite the fact it came via an email rant. :)

Link to comment

I don't blame the CO for not liking that log. They won't know about it being edited unless they look at it later, and I don't know why you woul log it like that if you're going to change it, rather than just doing a longer one later. That being said, you did log it as found and indicate you found it. Better than some others I've seen which said "fun" "never been here before" or even "a" At least TFTC says you found the cache. Not saying the CO is right, I'm saying I understand what the CO is thinking.

Link to comment

I don't blame the CO for not liking that log. They won't know about it being edited unless they look at it later, and I don't know why you woul log it like that if you're going to change it, rather than just doing a longer one later. That being said, you did log it as found and indicate you found it. Better than some others I've seen which said "fun" "never been here before" or even "a" At least TFTC says you found the cache. Not saying the CO is right, I'm saying I understand what the CO is thinking.

 

What was the CO thinking?

I went to all this trouble to hide this awesome cache and all you could type was "TFTC", I deserve better than this, I'm special, my cache is special, you have to acknowledge this!

Link to comment

I don't blame the CO for not liking that log. They won't know about it being edited unless they look at it later, and I don't know why you woul log it like that if you're going to change it, rather than just doing a longer one later. That being said, you did log it as found and indicate you found it. Better than some others I've seen which said "fun" "never been here before" or even "a" At least TFTC says you found the cache. Not saying the CO is right, I'm saying I understand what the CO is thinking.

 

What was the CO thinking?

I went to all this trouble to hide this awesome cache and all you could type was "TFTC", I deserve better than this, I'm special, my cache is special, you have to acknowledge this!

 

Wisenheimer. :lol: Additionally, if you look, all 20 caches are PMO. Perhaps this CO made his caches PMO thinking he/she has much less chance of intro app users, or Tftc loggers finding it.

Link to comment

Okay, thanks. I'm not nasty so won't go back into the 20 caches but am tempted. Haha

 

Thanks everyone.

 

Have a great day or night which ever is appropriate.

 

Bye and happy caching .

 

Does that mean you're not coming back? Because it's kind of hard to defend the CO in this case, but those who know me, or my posting stance on lame logs, can probably guess that I'm going to. :laughing:

 

You say you're not new to this, but you pretty much are. Your earliest logs are "that's one more find for me, thanks so much for hiding this geocache", which isn't even a log you typed yourself, but the (since removed) standard log from the intro to Geocaching app. Here's a cache with 11 favorites points that you logged with 2 words, "nice hide".

 

The cache owner here seems to be frustrated by the proliferation of lame logging, which almost always comes from people thumbing out a couple words or an acronym from smartphones at the cache site. Once upon a time, namely from 2000-2009, everyone went home to a computer to log their finds, and "Tftc" logging was extremely rare. At the very least, you now know that many people who hide caches for others to find (and you have not), would like to see more than 2 words or an acronym for a Geocaching log. Despite the fact it came via an email rant. :)

 

The CO was wrong (and a bit rude) to ask for a longer log...but I gotta agree with Mr. Yuck here. It's a little hard to defend someone who doesn't really appear to put much effort into logging more than a sentence or two on any given cache. And I'm not really talking about the OP specifically...I'd say those are the majority. Nobody expects a two paragraph description of one's journey to every cache, but this CO was receiving 20 emails from the OP and probably got a bit fed up with seeing 'TFTC' pop up 20 times. I can personally attest to the fact that it can be rather sad when all you get is pointless logs crowding your inbox. It's not at all about expecting glowing reviews or a lengthy description of the merits of one's cache. It's kind of like being part of a group text when everyone replies back to everyone else...all you can think is "OKAY! I GOT IT! NOW EVERYONE PLEASE STOP REPLYING 'LOL'!".

Link to comment
The downside of logging in the field with an app.

 

If you plan to write more later, why not save the log as a Field Note?

+1

 

As a cache owner, I'd rather read a real log, and I am extremely unlikely to view the online log for a "TFTC" log notification to see whether it was edited afterwards.

 

As a cache finder, I wait until I can write a real log (at a real keyboard). In the field, I enter only field notes.

Link to comment
The downside of logging in the field with an app.

 

If you plan to write more later, why not save the log as a Field Note?

+1

 

As a cache owner, I'd rather read a real log, and I am extremely unlikely to view the online log for a "TFTC" log notification to see whether it was edited afterwards.

 

As a cache finder, I wait until I can write a real log (at a real keyboard). In the field, I enter only field notes.

 

Some people don't even know about field notes and just because you use them doesn't mean everyone wants to.

 

A good friend often posts TFTC in the field and later writes some pretty nice logs, he got a nasty email from a CO about how much effort they went to place the cache and that his log was ignorant and ever since all that CO ever gets is TFTC.

 

Expecting people to do things the way you do them is futile.

Link to comment

I always find it best to give everyone lots of slack. In this case, the CO's cranky, so big deal. Maybe he has a good reason, but it doesn't matter. I would have taken the position that I was, in fact, at fault, whether I thought I'd done anything wrong or not, apologized for the "TFTC" and explained that a better log was already in the works.

 

If I wasn't apologetic enough to satisfy him and he sent me further condemnations, I would have ignored it and moved on. Maybe that's exactly what you did, although it's hard to see why the CO would believe there was need for further instruction in etiquette unless your response gave him the impression that there was something to debate about his reaction. (By the way, even here I encourage you to try to think about how nice the CO's being, trying to help you with your etiquette, not be unappreciative just because you already know all about it.) There's absolutely no value in even thinking about retaliating by making your log even simpler (or removing the extended log you've already posted), as others have suggested. Why would you want to give the CO even more reason to be cranky? He's got enough problems with his natural amount of cranky, and people arguing with him when he was wrong might be exactly where he got it all.

 

Having said all that, I never write a log at all until I have time to write the true log since the true log is the point. What was so important about logging TFTC right away? All it does is bump the silly find count. If there's an important reason to log a find quickly, like a TB drop or something, then I make time.

Link to comment

I don't think anyone can judge the contents of an email that was never posted. Perhaps the OP defensively overreacted to it, but some people get annoyed at any type of email or communication from someone else, and it doesn't matter how it's written. Usually there are plenty of people in here complaining about those TFTC logs but it's funny how a little communication could be perceived the wrong way. Personally I wouldn't bother to communicate anything to someone who posts "TFTC", as there is always the possibility that they have lousy reading comprehension or are illiterate. You just can't tell anything from those logs, especially if they are on a simple P&G.

Link to comment
Having said all that, I never write a log at all until I have time to write the true log since the true log is the point. What was so important about logging TFTC right away? All it does is bump the silly find count. If there's an important reason to log a find quickly, like a TB drop or something, then I make time.

+1

Link to comment

This reminds me of a pretty insulting email I got from the owner of a TB hotel.

 

He did a bit of digging and discovered that we had taken 15 TB’s (of the 25 in there).

 

He was not happy. He said he put his rules in large bold coloured letters and I had no excuse for taking that many. He said that if everyone acted like us, the hobby would have died a long time ago. He closes by saying that he hopes in the future that we will be more responsible and respectful of the basic rules in geocaching as well as those in society in general.

Link to comment

This reminds me of a pretty insulting email I got from the owner of a TB hotel.

 

He did a bit of digging and discovered that we had taken 15 TB’s (of the 25 in there).

 

He was not happy. He said he put his rules in large bold coloured letters and I had no excuse for taking that many. He said that if everyone acted like us, the hobby would have died a long time ago. He closes by saying that he hopes in the future that we will be more responsible and respectful of the basic rules in geocaching as well as those in society in general.

 

You only took 15 of 25? :laughing: Did you leave any, or just take 15? :blink:

Link to comment

This reminds me of a pretty insulting email I got from the owner of a TB hotel.

 

He did a bit of digging and discovered that we had taken 15 TB’s (of the 25 in there).

 

He was not happy. He said he put his rules in large bold coloured letters and I had no excuse for taking that many. He said that if everyone acted like us, the hobby would have died a long time ago. He closes by saying that he hopes in the future that we will be more responsible and respectful of the basic rules in geocaching as well as those in society in general.

Good reason for an NA, with an explanation why, so the Reviewer could read about his TB prison requirements.

- Maybe he'd be more responsible and respectful in the future. :laughing:

Link to comment
Write a Great “Found It” or “Didn’t find It” Log – When you find a geocache, or even when you don’t find a geocache, make sure to share the spirit of adventure with the geocache owner and for other geocachers. Write a log detailing your journey.

 

http://www.geocaching.com/blog/2014/02/5-geocaching-etiquette-tips/

 

So if someone sent that, you'd change all of your logs to "SL" or "." ? :rolleyes:

 

That'll show them!

Link to comment

This reminds me of a pretty insulting email I got from the owner of a TB hotel.

 

He did a bit of digging and discovered that we had taken 15 TB’s (of the 25 in there).

 

He was not happy. He said he put his rules in large bold coloured letters and I had no excuse for taking that many. He said that if everyone acted like us, the hobby would have died a long time ago. He closes by saying that he hopes in the future that we will be more responsible and respectful of the basic rules in geocaching as well as those in society in general.

 

You only took 15 of 25? :laughing: Did you leave any, or just take 15? :blink:

 

And how many were listed in inventory? 30? 50?

Link to comment
Write a Great “Found It” or “Didn’t find It” Log – When you find a geocache, or even when you don’t find a geocache, make sure to share the spirit of adventure with the geocache owner and for other geocachers. Write a log detailing your journey.

 

http://www.geocaching.com/blog/2014/02/5-geocaching-etiquette-tips/

 

So if someone sent that, you'd change all of your logs to "SL" or "." ? :rolleyes:

 

That'll show them!

 

Yeah, I have to say, I'm kind of shocked by some of the early advice the OP got, and not only that, I'm rather shocked at some of the user accounts said advice was coming from. :o

 

I dunno man, would it have made a difference that I saw that the OP was once a "that's one more find for me" intro app logger? That they dropped a "nice hide" log on an excellent cache with 11 favorite points? That the 20 caches in question were PMO, and maybe the cache owner did that to cut down on intro app and Tftc loggers?

 

Plenty of people around here have said they make their caches PMO to keep intro app users away, and plenty of people rail against lame logging around here. Was it the fact an email was sent that makes it apparently so offensive to some people? :huh:

Link to comment

I had Occassion last week to go and find about 20 caches hidden by the one CO. On one of these we were rushed for time and simply wrote TFTC with the intentions of adding to the log later (which we did). I received an email from the CO to say that he expectedmore than the TFTC . I replied and said that we were doing the follow up at that time. He rudely sent me the etiquette of Caching to read. Didn't bother to reply.

 

My log would have been changed to "TFC".

I probably would have changed it to .

Edited by jholly
Link to comment

This reminds me of a pretty insulting email I got from the owner of a TB hotel.

 

He did a bit of digging and discovered that we had taken 15 TB’s (of the 25 in there).

 

He was not happy. He said he put his rules in large bold coloured letters and I had no excuse for taking that many. He said that if everyone acted like us, the hobby would have died a long time ago. He closes by saying that he hopes in the future that we will be more responsible and respectful of the basic rules in geocaching as well as those in society in general.

 

I would have taken all 25 and my log would have read "PRISON BREAK!"

 

I would have responded to his email explaining that his "rules" are in violation of the "basic rules in geocaching" which forbid such "rules" on a TB Hotel.

Link to comment
Write a Great “Found It” or “Didn’t find It” Log – When you find a geocache, or even when you don’t find a geocache, make sure to share the spirit of adventure with the geocache owner and for other geocachers. Write a log detailing your journey.

 

http://www.geocaching.com/blog/2014/02/5-geocaching-etiquette-tips/

 

So if someone sent that, you'd change all of your logs to "SL" or "." ? :rolleyes:

 

That'll show them!

 

Yeah, I have to say, I'm kind of shocked by some of the early advice the OP got, and not only that, I'm rather shocked at some of the user accounts said advice was coming from. :o

 

I dunno man, would it have made a difference that I saw that the OP was once a "that's one more find for me" intro app logger? That they dropped a "nice hide" log on an excellent cache with 11 favorite points? That the 20 caches in question were PMO, and maybe the cache owner did that to cut down on intro app and Tftc loggers?

 

Plenty of people around here have said they make their caches PMO to keep intro app users away, and plenty of people rail against lame logging around here. Was it the fact an email was sent that makes it apparently so offensive to some people? :huh:

 

People tend to imagine emotions in text that simply aren't there, which seems common in here also. This is one reasons emoticons are often used. :P Reading the same letter 3 different ways could have 3 different conclusions by 3 different people. We don't see the text of the email, but yet are given enough information to figure out who it is. If the text was posted, but without identifying info, there would certainly be more varied responses. Of course some people are offended by any email that doesn't praise them. Then again, it's Monday and most are at supposed to be working instead of posting in here. :D

 

Writing TFTC - poor behavior.

 

Sending an email - highly offensive :rolleyes:

Edited by 4wheelin_fool
Link to comment
Write a Great “Found It” or “Didn’t find It” Log – When you find a geocache, or even when you don’t find a geocache, make sure to share the spirit of adventure with the geocache owner and for other geocachers. Write a log detailing your journey.

 

http://www.geocaching.com/blog/2014/02/5-geocaching-etiquette-tips/

 

So if someone sent that, you'd change all of your logs to "SL" or "." ? :rolleyes:

 

That'll show them!

 

Yeah, I have to say, I'm kind of shocked by some of the early advice the OP got, and not only that, I'm rather shocked at some of the user accounts said advice was coming from. :o

 

I dunno man, would it have made a difference that I saw that the OP was once a "that's one more find for me" intro app logger? That they dropped a "nice hide" log on an excellent cache with 11 favorite points? That the 20 caches in question were PMO, and maybe the cache owner did that to cut down on intro app and Tftc loggers?

 

Plenty of people around here have said they make their caches PMO to keep intro app users away, and plenty of people rail against lame logging around here. Was it the fact an email was sent that makes it apparently so offensive to some people? :huh:

 

People tend to imagine emotions in text that simply aren't there, which seems common in here also. This is one reasons emoticons are often used. :P Reading the same letter 3 different ways could have 3 different conclusions by 3 different people. We don't see the text of the email, but yet are given enough information to figure out who it is. If the text was posted, but without identifying info, there would certainly be more varied responses. Of course some people are offended by any email that doesn't praise them. Then again, it's Monday and most are at supposed to be working instead of posting in here. :D

 

It's lunch hour here on the east coast, as I'm sure you know. My first post, I can't talk about that one though. :)

Link to comment
Write a Great “Found It” or “Didn’t find It” Log – When you find a geocache, or even when you don’t find a geocache, make sure to share the spirit of adventure with the geocache owner and for other geocachers. Write a log detailing your journey.

 

http://www.geocachin...etiquette-tips/

 

So if someone sent that, you'd change all of your logs to "SL" or "." ? :rolleyes:

 

That'll show them!

 

Yeah, I have to say, I'm kind of shocked by some of the early advice the OP got, and not only that, I'm rather shocked at some of the user accounts said advice was coming from. :o

 

I dunno man, would it have made a difference that I saw that the OP was once a "that's one more find for me" intro app logger? That they dropped a "nice hide" log on an excellent cache with 11 favorite points? That the 20 caches in question were PMO, and maybe the cache owner did that to cut down on intro app and Tftc loggers?

 

Plenty of people around here have said they make their caches PMO to keep intro app users away, and plenty of people rail against lame logging around here. Was it the fact an email was sent that makes it apparently so offensive to some people? :huh:

 

People tend to imagine emotions in text that simply aren't there, which seems common in here also. This is one reasons emoticons are often used. :P Reading the same letter 3 different ways could have 3 different conclusions by 3 different people. We don't see the text of the email, but yet are given enough information to figure out who it is. If the text was posted, but without identifying info, there would certainly be more varied responses. Of course some people are offended by any email that doesn't praise them. Then again, it's Monday and most are at supposed to be working instead of posting in here. :D

 

Writing TFTC - poor behavior.

 

Sending an email - highly offensive :rolleyes:

 

I am highly offended. It's Tuesday here! :angry::laughing:

Link to comment

I can't really give an opinion either way without seeing exactly what was said by both sides. I can definitely see where the CO is coming from, though. "TFTC" is generally a final (albeit lame) log, not a placeholder that will be edited later, so it's understandable that they may not have liked it very much. I wouldn't go as far as to contact the logger, but that's just me.

 

I would use this situation as a lesson-learned. In the future, if you're in a situation where you feel you absolutely must submit a placeholder log, tell the CO that's what it is in the log (preferably with a rough timeframe so the CO knows when to go look at the log again). I think something along the lines of "Found it, more to come this evening" would be good.

Link to comment
Expecting people to do things the way you do them is futile.
Yeah, but if someone is routinely violating basic geocaching etiquette, then there's a chance they're doing it out of ignorance, rather than malice. If they're doing it out of ignorance, then letting them know how their actions are perceived by others might actually help them.

 

For some people just being able to type out TFTC is a great feat last thing they need is some rude CO criticizing them.

 

Fact is if you publish a cache you will get canned logs, if you can't handle them maybe you shouldn't be a CO.

Link to comment

I personally do not think a CO has the right to try and correct how people log. I am not a CO myself, so I haven't experienced the frustrations of crappy logs firsthand, but just from looking at caches, I like to read the logs and am more likely to go after ones that have interesting tidbits. The CO may have had every justification for feeling like they deserved more than a TFTC, but I don't think COs have the right to demand that and try to force other people to play the way the CO thinks they should play.

 

In particular, in this situation, if a finder has written a nice log on nineteen out of the twenty finds, I'm not sure how the CO felt justified in demanding a better log of the one single cache that only had TFTC.

 

That being said, when I first started geocaching, I just kinda went for it on my own with no more experienced cacher guiding me along. I did not know for a long time that TFTC was as unappreciated as it is, and would have appreciated a CO politely pointing it out to me. I learned after a while, but even now, I try to write a bit more, but sometimes there are those P&G hides where I'm straining to think of what I could possibly say about it.

 

I think this whole situation is just another example of how no matter what, you're pretty much darned if you do and darned if you don't.

Link to comment

I personally do not think a CO has the right to try and correct how people log. I am not a CO myself, so I haven't experienced the frustrations of crappy logs firsthand, but just from looking at caches, I like to read the logs and am more likely to go after ones that have interesting tidbits. The CO may have had every justification for feeling like they deserved more than a TFTC, but I don't think COs have the right to demand that and try to force other people to play the way the CO thinks they should play.

 

In particular, in this situation, if a finder has written a nice log on nineteen out of the twenty finds, I'm not sure how the CO felt justified in demanding a better log of the one single cache that only had TFTC.

 

That being said, when I first started geocaching, I just kinda went for it on my own with no more experienced cacher guiding me along. I did not know for a long time that TFTC was as unappreciated as it is, and would have appreciated a CO politely pointing it out to me. I learned after a while, but even now, I try to write a bit more, but sometimes there are those P&G hides where I'm straining to think of what I could possibly say about it.

 

I think this whole situation is just another example of how no matter what, you're pretty much darned if you do and darned if you don't.

 

Don't feel bad my first log on the first cache I ever found was simply

 

:)

 

I went back over a year later and edited it and wrote my story of how I discovered geocaching. Had the CO back then sent me a rude email I probably would have never found another cache again.

Link to comment
Expecting people to do things the way you do them is futile.
Yeah, but if someone is routinely violating basic geocaching etiquette, then there's a chance they're doing it out of ignorance, rather than malice. If they're doing it out of ignorance, then letting them know how their actions are perceived by others might actually help them.

 

I like that point. But the OP is long gone from this thread in this case and thinks everything is hunky dory, after like the first 4 people, including a reviewer, told them the CO was an idiot for emailing them. :ph34r:

Link to comment

I had Occassion last week to go and find about 20 caches hidden by the one CO. On one of these we were rushed for time and simply wrote TFTC with the intentions of adding to the log later (which we did). I received an email from the CO to say that he expectedmore than the TFTC . I replied and said that we were doing the follow up at that time. He rudely sent me the etiquette of Caching to read. Didn't bother to reply.

 

The cache owner can feel however he/she wants, but writing to berate you for your log is totally out of line.

Link to comment

I had Occassion last week to go and find about 20 caches hidden by the one CO. On one of these we were rushed for time and simply wrote TFTC with the intentions of adding to the log later (which we did). I received an email from the CO to say that he expectedmore than the TFTC . I replied and said that we were doing the follow up at that time. He rudely sent me the etiquette of Caching to read. Didn't bother to reply.

 

The cache owner can feel however he/she wants, but writing to berate you for your log is totally out of line.

 

Berate or educate? Attempting a friendly dialog with a TFTC author is not necessarily meant to be taken negatively, although it's likely futile.

 

If he is to receive trite, meaningless, banal, and vapid notifications on their hides from lazy loggers, then it's not out of line to send some feedback to them.

Edited by 4wheelin_fool
Link to comment

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
×
×
  • Create New...