Jump to content

Should Wherigo be grandfathered?


Geoscouts.eu

Recommended Posts

The build platform is no longer supported by Groundspeak (hasn't been for years as far as I can tell) and they do not allow us to link to the other more useful builders which independent parties have put considerable time and effort into. E.g. I created our very first Wherigo cache recently and was told that it couldn't be published until I removed all mention of third party builders (Wherigo\\kit) and links to apps in the app store and google play which allow you to actually find these cache types.

 

Input?

 

I had the same problem with a recent Wherigo I had published in Wyoming. (http://coord.info/GC5JQC0) I had discussed it with the reviewer, and even sent in a request to Groundspeak seeking clarification. They came back and told me the same, that I can't link to outside 3rd party sources. BUT said I COULD LINK TO THE GC FORUMS. I was even encouraged to make my own posted topic in the Wherigo section so I could link to their site and keep it "in house" so to say. Nothing prevents you from linking to outside sources from the GC forums! Here is the GC forum thread I started for my wherigos: http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=329127 If you look at my cache page, I have this linked in the last sentence of the first paragraph. There are ways around it, you just have to use all the tools you have at your discretion to do it!

 

Pathfinder33

Link to comment

This is (most likely) due to another well-known Wherigo issue ...

 

If the unlock code you are given at the end of playing a cartridge does not work, then discard anything after the 15th digit and enter only the first 15 digits as the unlock code.

 

The above seems to work in the vast majority of instances where people mention unlock codes not working.

 

 

Thank you for posting this, it is a work around to enter the code.

 

We just completed our first Wherigo today. I will say it was fun, but the final was a disappointment. Why create a multi stage virtual then hides a magnetic nano as the final? :(

 

Anyway, I got my icon for a Wherigo. :D

Link to comment

Please do not Grandfather Wherigo. This is the ultimate adventure!

Why not put more effort into further developing Wherigo's into a more functional and simpler to make a Wherigo. It seems that Groundspeak feels that this is too hard of a project to manage and just wants it to go away?

1) Make it simpler to make a Wherigo for developers. If it was simpler there would be more Wherigo's.

2) Make sure that the cartridges work in all devices. I never had a Garman that would run a Wherigo's, but I do have a iPhone and use it.

3) Assure that the Wherigo will save it self on all devices after each mission or leg. I've had it sometimes will quit in the middle and then I have to start it all over again.

4) Have the unlock key be emailed or texted to you so that I can show that I have completed the Wherigo. Do I really have to go to TWO sites to log the cache? Maybe once I logged the cache it would place a notation on the Wherigo site with the same information. What a concept!

5) Integrate Geocaching.com and Wherigo more seamless. Why not download the cartridge on the geocaching website?

 

Let's keep Wherigo around, but lets put some technology behind to make it more functional.

Link to comment

but I wouldn't want to see them grandfathered. There is a group called the "Wherigo Foundation" who are trying to move it forward.

 

This.

 

I love both finding and creating Wherigos. Unfortunately though, I may have single-handedly diluted the idea of Wherigos in my home area. I think I now own about 65 easy-to-run Wherigos. :ph34r:

Link to comment
I may have single-handedly diluted the idea of Wherigos in my home area.

One would argue light pole, guard rail, and stop sign geocaches has diluted an area of geocaching, where geocaching is viewed only as a box in the woods. Likewise, it would be good for people to have available cartridges of varying difficulties and styles. And until Wherigo is consistently stable and easily accessible across all devices, simpler cartridges tend to work best for all (so people don't get turned off to Wherigo by having a complicated cartridge not work for them--or even a simple cartridge on an unstable player app).

 

I do have this feeling that, if the Wherigo Foundation's work doesn't pan out, the Wherigo geocache type will be archived.

Link to comment

Why grandfather (or retire) something that seems to work perfectly well and enriches the geocaching experience significantly. Most fellow geocachers we know love this aspect of geocaching and want more of it. The increasing number of iPhone users means that geocaching itself is becoming more popular because there is no need to invest in an expensive GPSR to join the club. To take away the Wherigo experience would be regressive and an unnecessary vandalism of our ever increasing leisure experience opportunities. Don't even think about it!! John&Moira

Link to comment

We have used both Earwigo and Urwigo and found both easy to use after having played around for some time with them. There are no instruction manuals or guides as far as we can see so, although we have got Wherigos to work OK we still don't totally understand how. As we have posted elsewhere here one proble could poor compilation giving Wherigos a bad reputation. When they wok they enrich the geocaching experience significantly. If some effort was put into developing some instruction or guides there would be far fewer failures and much more fun could be had by all. Happy to help with that but wouldn't have clue how to start it off. John&Moira

Link to comment

This is (most likely) due to another well-known Wherigo issue ...

 

If the unlock code you are given at the end of playing a cartridge does not work, then discard anything after the 15th digit and enter only the first 15 digits as the unlock code.

 

The above seems to work in the vast majority of instances where people mention unlock codes not working.

 

 

Thank you for posting this, it is a work around to enter the code.

 

We just completed our first Wherigo today. I will say it was fun, but the final was a disappointment. Why create a multi stage virtual then hides a magnetic nano as the final? :(

 

Anyway, I got my icon for a Wherigo. :D

 

Yes! This was my exact complaint about the one Wherigo I did. I took a lovely hike throughout the woods, only to be lead to a micro in a parking lot.

Link to comment

We enjoy Wherigos.

Done them in places all over Europe. I really appreciate the efforts people put in to creating them. Much better than traditional multicaches. Please don't stop them. As a premium member, I think that our subscriptions could be used to improve the situation, it wouldn't take that much effort in view of the millions of paying members. Regards Derek

Link to comment

I agree. As it becomes more and more difficult (at least around here) to place physical caches, I see huge potential for Wherigo caches. It offers the opportunity for playing without physically hiding objects. If only the technology would become a bit more user and cache creator friendly.

 

I see Wherigo similar to Waymarking, it's just not Geocaching. :)

 

Some Wherigo cartridges are not caches - there is no container involved so you can play the cartridge in order to play the cartridge without it being listed on this site. II doubt if many of those cartridges are played that often. Most wherigos, however, lead to a physical container. They are as much a part of geocaching as solving puzzles in order to find a cache.

 

I recently a completed a Wherigo that begun in a national park where physical caches are not permitted and led to a container 10-15 miles away outside the boundaries. If a physical cache cannot be placed in an area for whatever reason, I suppose that same type of idea could be used. But ultimately it was not a very satisfying experience - too much of a leap of faith that I would be traveling near the final destination and too much of a disconnect between the Wherigo portion and the location of a cache. If it had been a traditional I would have driven by without giving it any thought and except for the Wherigo icon there was no reason to have done things any differently.

Link to comment

I agree. As it becomes more and more difficult (at least around here) to place physical caches, I see huge potential for Wherigo caches. It offers the opportunity for playing without physically hiding objects. If only the technology would become a bit more user and cache creator friendly.

 

I see Wherigo similar to Waymarking, it's just not Geocaching. :)

 

Some Wherigo cartridges are not caches - there is no container involved so you can play the cartridge in order to play the cartridge without it being listed on this site. II doubt if many of those cartridges are played that often. Most wherigos, however, lead to a physical container. They are as much a part of geocaching as solving puzzles in order to find a cache.

 

I recently a completed a Wherigo that begun in a national park where physical caches are not permitted and led to a container 10-15 miles away outside the boundaries. If a physical cache cannot be placed in an area for whatever reason, I suppose that same type of idea could be used. But ultimately it was not a very satisfying experience - too much of a leap of faith that I would be traveling near the final destination and too much of a disconnect between the Wherigo portion and the location of a cache. If it had been a traditional I would have driven by without giving it any thought and except for the Wherigo icon there was no reason to have done things any differently.

 

I have also found them problematic, not that I have played that many of them.

 

I started to create one of my own with a large cache at the end and just kind of lost interest. Wherigo is just not that popular locally.

 

The one that I did complete was tough to log, and the cache at the end was a nano under a park bench. :blink:

Link to comment

I see Wherigo similar to Waymarking, it's just not Geocaching. :)

 

Some Wherigo cartridges are not caches - there is no container involved so you can play the cartridge in order to play the cartridge without it being listed on this site. II doubt if many of those cartridges are played that often. Most wherigos, however, lead to a physical container. They are as much a part of geocaching as solving puzzles in order to find a cache.

 

I recently a completed a Wherigo that begun in a national park where physical caches are not permitted and led to a container 10-15 miles away outside the boundaries. If a physical cache cannot be placed in an area for whatever reason, I suppose that same type of idea could be used. But ultimately it was not a very satisfying experience - too much of a leap of faith that I would be traveling near the final destination and too much of a disconnect between the Wherigo portion and the location of a cache. If it had been a traditional I would have driven by without giving it any thought and except for the Wherigo icon there was no reason to have done things any differently.

 

I have also found them problematic, not that I have played that many of them.

 

I started to create one of my own with a large cache at the end and just kind of lost interest. Wherigo is just not that popular locally.

 

The one that I did complete was tough to log, and the cache at the end was a nano under a park bench. :blink:

 

 

Every Wherigo I've ever did had a container, Most of the Wherigo's were great caches (high favorites number), well thought out an fun doing. It may have to do with the fact we select what to do well in advance and don't just pick up any cache. The ones we did were "themed" like trying to catch a bankrobber, hobbit trail, following a city guide, WW I historic places...

Link to comment

 

Now after you explain it that way I have a better understanding. They sound awful, and from looking at the very few near me and past logs... They don't sound very interesting to me.

Looks like the Wherigo is problematic with few interested in making them better.

 

Easily the two best caches I ever did were Wherigo's, one took me 8 months and many visits to complete. It incorporated UV stages, night-cache fire tacks, random zones / characters that would appear. It was just awesome. Yes, many visits over 8 months to finally complete it and get one smiley. It was worth it (most others completed it the same long day or over two visits but I had shorter time slots available).

http://coord.info/GC3MC70 (my 500th cache find)

http://coord.info/GC4RVTG (my 800 cache find)

 

Maybe half of the Wherigo's I've done are just a multi (visit sign/etc, enter answer, go to next sign/etc, enter answer, yawn...)and could be done as a multi. But the Wherigo gives you many other options - zones, timers, multiple choice...not easily replaced.

 

Please let them be, even without Groundspeak inventing in development and support of the platform, it continues to be developed by third parties and is now more accessible than ever. And many of the "problems" encountered with playing Wherigo's on Garmin's or on particular apps are avoidable but that takes a bit more work when writing the cartridge.

Link to comment

 

Some Wherigo cartridges are not caches - there is no container involved so you can play the cartridge in order to play the cartridge without it being listed on this site. II doubt if many of those cartridges are played that often. Most wherigos, however, lead to a physical container. They are as much a part of geocaching as solving puzzles in order to find a cache.

 

If it is listed on Geocaching.com as a Wherigo-type cache, it will have a physical container - always (I know someone will happily correct me if I am wrong). However, a Whergio cartridge can be hosted on Wherigo.com without the requirement for a cache - for example, play-anywhere types. Another situation is where the Wherigo cartridge is still available to download and play (on Wherigo.com) but the geocache listing has been archived.

 

A Wherigo cartridge takes you on an adventure...a Wherigo cache uses a Wherigo cartridge to take you on an adventure and at the end of the adventure you find a physical cache.

Link to comment

I think if Groundspeak had the sense/foresight, they would have made something like Foursquare/Swarm from their Waymarking site. Likewise, they could have made something like Ingress or some other location-based game from Wherigo. Or they could have spun off a game like Munzee before that became popular, even integrating parts of what became Munzee into Wherigo. The last new cache type innovation to come from Groundspeak was Wherigo in 2008. (Lab caches cannot be placed by players, so these don't count.) Since then, geocaching has been fairly stagnant.

 

No business is too big to give up their market leader status. You must innovate constantly and listen to your customers. And there are business mistakes, too, such as IBM not realizing the market potential for personal computers.

 

In my opinion, Garmin's Opencaching failed because it did not bring anything innovative to the table. You cannot introduce a clone of a product and expect it to succeed without also introducing something that would redefine the game. At least Garmin realized geocaching's major players have poured a ton of time and money into geocaching, and this prevents some people from switching games.

 

So, anyway, back to Wherigo. What does it need to be a phenomenal success? Honestly, a lot more than anyone can provide while working in their free time. Wherigo needs to be easier to access, first and foremost, and this can be accomplished relatively easily. It needs to be more immersive and the UI needs to be flexible enough for authors to tailor a look to their game. It needs a fun and engaging scoring system, with a leaderboard, prizes (think Munzee: their clan war prizes do not cost the company anything), and a way to get people to encourage each other to continue playing (e.g. geocaching power trails, Munzee clan wars, Ingress factions). It needs something simple that would balance out the complexity of cartridges while still making cartridges the main draw. I wouldn't mind QR codes or something giving small points and the cartridges being the main source of a player's score. One approach (side game, but across all cartridges) I created called Wherigo Invaders could be a step in the right direction, but it needs something more to keep people engaged and coming back for a quick few minute fix every day.

 

There's a lot you can do with Wherigo, but the time commitment to make it a reality is high. While giving control of Wherigo to the Wherigo Foundation would be a band-aid approach to preventing the ship from sinking, I doubt the Wherigo Foundation will have the time it needs to bring many of these innovations to market in a timely fashion.

Link to comment

Never done one...I have no interest in downloading an entirely separate app in order to participate. Maybe if they somehow built in the functionality to run one into the Geocaching app...

 

There's a "Peach State" GeoArt series of 85 Wherigos east of Atlanta. They are all "play anywhere" cartridges, which I didn't know was even possible. I thought the whole point of a Wherigo was to have you walk through a particular zone. I think the CO just wanted to throw out a bunch of crappy caches.

Link to comment

In any activity, you'll have a mix of approaches. At the very least, I like the Peach State series asked Georgian trivia and some were park and grabs and the rest were within a park. There was a mix, at least. As with geocaching, Wherigo will have what people consider a light pole cache equivalent. But, you know, I'm just happy someone took the time and put something out. I'm the only one in my area who does anything with Wherigo, part of which I blame on myself for jumping right into creating some complicated cartridges instead of bringing everyone else up to speed. So I'll take something over nothing until we have a whole lot of something or people think that's what the game is exclusively about.

 

Yes, it might be annoying to have to switch apps. I hope, though, it gets a lot easier to search for and load cartridges into the app. That's step one in a long process to bring a lot of improvements to Wherigo. But this does require Groundspeak's cooperation, and that's what everyone is waiting for.

 

Oh, and all geocache types aren't for everyone. If you don't want to do a Wherigo geocache, you don't have to. Personally, I spend enough time in front of computers as it is, so I don't care for most puzzle caches, which require me to be in front of a computer even more to figure out how to solve.

 

At work, the more critical I am of something, the more that obligates me to fix it.

Link to comment

Never done one...I have no interest in downloading an entirely separate app in order to participate. Maybe if they somehow built in the functionality to run one into the Geocaching app...

 

There's a "Peach State" GeoArt series of 85 Wherigos east of Atlanta. They are all "play anywhere" cartridges, which I didn't know was even possible. I thought the whole point of a Wherigo was to have you walk through a particular zone. I think the CO just wanted to throw out a bunch of crappy caches.

 

The "app" used to be build-in if you had a Colorado or Oregon (old series).

 

Since you've never done one, how do you know they are "crappy caches"? Besides, being "crappy" is not something for Wherigo only, There are A LOT of crappy trads around too. At least I've never done a crappy Wherigo.

 

Maybe you should go out a do one, you might like it :ph34r:

Link to comment

Was Wherigo a venture between Garmin and Groundspeak? I do recall that Garmin released its BrokenCaching site in December of 2010, so seems the two companys parted was at that time. I forgot that the older Garmin units supported Wherigo.

 

If I had to sum it up all I know about Wherigo, I would just have to say it's Ranger Fox's baby. I think he knows more about it than anyone. :)

Link to comment

I take "crappy cache" to mean "it's not my cup of tea". No one is going to like everything and while you can urge someone to try it, you can't make someone like it. And that's okay because this difference in opinion fuels the variety of caches we see today.

 

Wherigo wasn't quite a joint business venture in the regard you might think. From what was explained to me and what I theorize is Garmin was coming out with the Colorado and wanted to include GPX files (theory, confirmed by observation). They asked Groundspeak if there was anything else (hearsay) and somehow Groundspeak mentioned this other side project called Wherigo, which wasn't really meant to be related to geocaching (partial theory; had it been, the Wherigo cache type would have been available from the start and the Wherigo site would have had more geocaching-related text).

 

Specifically to Manville Possum Hunters:

Please allow me to explain my relationship with Wherigo and Groundspeak. I had no involvement with Wherigo before it was released in January 2008. I had no prior knowledge of it, either. I participated off an on almost exclusively in the geocaching website forum, but was not among the major contributors. The moment Wherigo was released, I began tinkering with it. My background is in web application programming. Wherigo meant a way for me to tell stories and provide a different experience you could not get with geocaching. My stance on geocache types is this: use the lowest denomination to get the job done (applying this, the Peach State series would have been mystery caches with a multiple choice puzzle on the cache page). Anyway, I tend to pick things up very quickly, so I was assisting most of the forum community by mid-January 2008. This was when Groundspeak asked if I would like to moderate the forum. I accepted on one condition: the moderator role would not inhibit my main role of helping people.

 

My current take on being a moderator is this: non-reviewer moderators get some backing from Groundspeak to help with forum activities, but seem to have little voice in geocaching policy decisions. So if you encounter a non-reviewer moderator, be nice and remember they're just trying to keep the peace.

 

After a couple months, Groundspeak's day-to-day involvement in the Wherigo forum slacked and mostly disappeared around May. I attribute this to the community settling down and being able to fare for itself than Groundspeak's abandonment of the project, though that was when the last builder update was released. A Wherigo web developer position was open at Groundspeak. I applied for this, but the position was rescinded and never filled. Earwigo was in development by sTeamTraen shortly after May or June as I remember his showing me an early build on his laptop in September 2008. matejcik introduced his Java-based player in November 2008, meaning the community had both a builder and player within the first year. Time went on and smartphones began to gain importance. New builders and players were released. I continued to be part of the community, trying to urge Groundspeak to fix certain high priority issues during some phone calls, which at times were monthly. Some of those issues, such as the Google Maps issue for the emulators, I could fix, though I was promised an official fix shortly after. Show-stoppers, such as login issues, needed to be fixed--and were--by Groundspeak, but that's the extent of support I can expect. I remember hearing them lament that Wherigo hadn't taken off as much as they wanted due to its high learning curve to build cartridges. I created Wherigo\\kit to show them it was possible to design a builder that could remove the learning curve (Kit was later released silently to the community when I put a link to it on my forum signature and didn't say anything else about it; I hated to see my work go to waste and thought some people would find it helpful). Kit was created mostly in two weeks around Christmas 2011.

 

In 2012, I was getting anxious about all these separate builders and players, and disorganized developer community--not united, no real communication channel available. I still wanted Groundspeak to come in and resume Wherigo's development. Do you know that old adage about if you want something done, you'll just have to do it yourself? I was mulling that over during 2011 and most of 2012. In December 2012, Charlenni approached me with a compiler he had created. This was an important trigger as the community now had builders, players, and a compiler, but just lacked an API and site to tie them all together. Being a web developer, that's right up my alley. After a few years of trying to get Groundspeak to do something, I thought I'd try organizing the developer community and that would either convince Groundspeak to continue Wherigo's development or let community volunteers do it. I happened to be positioned in the right place and was already a liaison to Groundspeak. Groundspeak seemed to be mildly interested in what would come out of that.

 

At the moment, the WF web site and API is almost as complete as I want to make it in its current form. You see, my skills have improved drastically since I started the site and the only reason I'm avoiding temptation to rip into it and update it to my current higher standards is due to the massive time commitment. I'm waiting for the WF.Player to reach a state where it's feature complete and ready to publish to app stores. That's what's currently going on, WF-side. The problem with the site at the moment is I created something that works and people are beginning to use it. I'm monitoring it for issues, so that's great for testing (it is a tech demo, after all). But if Groundspeak finally adopts the WF site, merging the databases is going to be more challenging than just importing the Wherigo.com database and making sure there aren't any duplication--and I have to make sure all the links on cache pages function after.

 

One of my goals in the future follows what I call the "hit by a bus principle". I need to make sure the Wherigo Foundation can get along fine without me. I've no intention of leaving at this time; I just recognize this could be a single point of failure and needs to be avoided. I've considered open sourcing the site to encourage others to help, but I'd rather update it to my current coding standards than let people look at how I used to code two and a half years ago and judge me for it. It's not bad code; I just think I'm far better now.

 

But, anyway, I've been involved so long with Wherigo that I'd like to see it work out, both in getting up to smartphone standards and also making it commercially viable. That last means Wherigo needs to generate revenue to pay its own bills. I'm not seeing Wherigo as a way to make money, but I do want to say "I told you so" to Groundspeak if I can get Wherigo to make its own income and pay for its own expenses. And bringing money into something altruistic tends to introduce complications to relationships.

 

So, Manville Possum Hunters, using your own phrasing, you can say this about my relationship with Groundspeak and Wherigo: Groundspeak had the baby and I'm the nanny. Groundspeak pays for the baby's expenses, is the mother, and checks in on it. My family, the Wherigo Foundation, and I have been trying to teach the baby to walk and talk, but we're not the baby's legal guardian. I don't think this kid is going to grow up healthy in a household where its parents dote on its older brother, geocaching, and leave it and its middle sibling, Waymarking, to fare for themselves. So adoption might be a good way to go. Give the kid an education, attention, and love before returning him to his parents.

 

This was very long, wasn't it?

Edited by Ranger Fox
Removed some opioions about being a volunteer because I could upset people.
  • Upvote 1
Link to comment

Very helpful information Ranger Fox. I enjoy listing alternative cache types, and Wherigo is interesting. I have also looked at Intercaching on one of the other sites that I use. My Wherigo is work in progress, and it is a large one that would take a few hours at least to complete. I've been careful how much time that I put into Wherigo, but hopefully it's going to be around for the long haul. I'm not putting much more into the Waymarking site, but I feel that the experience that I have gained there and with virtual listings on the alternative sites that Wherigo may be my new interest. Also, I don't own a icon for that cache type, yet. :laughing:

Link to comment

Never done one...I have no interest in downloading an entirely separate app in order to participate. Maybe if they somehow built in the functionality to run one into the Geocaching app...

 

There's a "Peach State" GeoArt series of 85 Wherigos east of Atlanta. They are all "play anywhere" cartridges, which I didn't know was even possible. I thought the whole point of a Wherigo was to have you walk through a particular zone. I think the CO just wanted to throw out a bunch of crappy caches.

 

The "app" used to be build-in if you had a Colorado or Oregon (old series).

 

Since you've never done one, how do you know they are "crappy caches"? Besides, being "crappy" is not something for Wherigo only, There are A LOT of crappy trads around too. At least I've never done a crappy Wherigo.

 

That statement was not based on the Wherigo system...it was based on my experience with that particular CO's other hides. I have no reason to believe this person changed hiding styles just for the Wherigo series.

Edited by J Grouchy
Link to comment

With all of the focus on UX design coming from Groundspeak lately I had the thought today that I had better get working on some of the Wherigos I want to get out. I have a sneaking suspicion that their time may be up soon. Interesting to see all of you have had this discussion already. Personally, I think grandfathering them would be a smart decision on Groundspeak's part....but it will certainly leave a lot of us enthusiasts disappointed.

Link to comment

No do not Grandfather the Wherigo. Wherigo is the true adventure cache.

We have Urwigo, Earwigo and Wherigo\\Kit (see them at this site https://wherigofoundation.com/builders/) Maintained by Ranger Fox (Thanks RF)

I wished that Groundspeak would update their platform and also the iPhone app to take the new API. Maybe someone out there will make a new iPhone app.

 

It seems that Groundspeak likes the Adventure Labs app which does not normally have a geocache attached.  They also tried the Metaverse App for AR geocaches.  Again Wherigo caches are very fun, but the mobile apps need to be update.

Edited by gjhimages
  • Love 2
Link to comment

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
×
×
  • Create New...