Geocheck.org was hacked

[+narcissa]

If copy/pasting a link to a checker is too much hassle - don't complain when folks start asking for responses or a way of verifying.

 

I wasn't aware anyone was complaining - but as stated above, CO's have complete freedom of choice as to whether or not to respond to those types of request at all

 

Again...it's all narcissa talks about whenever the checker subject comes up...folks complaining to her about adding a checker. It's the whole reason I even brought it up.

 

I'll take it as a compliment that you've taken such a personal interest in my view on this topic, though it's strange. I don't have the foggiest idea what your point of view is on anything, except what I'm reading here. I actually find it astonishing that anyone would notice or track such a thing.

[+funkymunkyzone]

All this pointless arguing over the use of the word courtesy.

 

IMO, the use of the word courtesy was entirely appropriate, and did not mean to insult anyone or imply anyone shows a lack of courtesy to anyone.

 

courtesy

n.

favor, help, or generosity

 

It is unarguably a favour and help given by the CO to include a checker on the page, but it doesn't imply anything negative at all about a CO that doesn't include one.

 

[+The A-Team]

All this pointless arguing over the use of the word courtesy.

Yep, that's how these forums work. No matter how valid or innocuous someone's post may be, someone else will:

1. Pick out a single word and debate it ad nauseam

2. Recursively pick apart the post and explain what the poster was really saying

3. Post a list of generalizations that may or may not be correct ()

[knowschad]

Has this thread veered off course a bit?

[+Bubbles&Bonkers]

Has this thread veered off course a bit?

 

Nope! Pretty sure it's about threads that veer off course so you're right on course, of course.

[knowschad]

Has this thread veered off course a bit?

 

I might need a geochecker to help me know if I'm following it correctly.

[cezanne]

Has this thread veered off course a bit?

 

Not that much in my opinion as what happened to geocheck.org could more or less happen for all geocheckers even though some others will be harder to hack.

In my opinion, avoiding geocheckers wherever possible is something which suggests itself.

[+Bubbles&Bonkers]

Has this thread veered off course a bit?

 

I LOVE geocheckers and I hope no more get hacked!! Is that more on course? And I do love them. Love em love em looooove em! :D

[knowschad]

Has this thread veered off course a bit?

 

I LOVE geocheckers and I hope no more get hacked!! Is that more on course? And I do love them. Love em love em looooove em! :D

 

Check to see if your post was correct:

 

[+NYPaddleCacher]

Has this thread veered off course a bit?

 

Not that much in my opinion as what happened to geocheck.org could more or less happen for all geocheckers even though some others will be harder to hack.

In my opinion, avoiding geocheckers wherever possible is something which suggests itself.

 

You might as well avoid all web sites then because there isn't anything inherent about a coordinate verification site that makes any riskier than any other web site.

[+Chrysalides]

Check to see if your post was correct:

 

Rats, wrong again! This is too hard. Can someone send me the correct post?

[+L0ne.R]

You keep talking about all this pressure you feel. Why should you let that affect you? Use it or don't...but don't really expect us to feign sympathy because you choose not to provide a way of checking, a courtesy that many choose to use.

 

Oh, there's that silly word again. "Courtesy." Do as I say, or you're not courteous.

 

Placing a decent cache for people to find is courtesy enough, isn't it? The geochecker hand-holding isn't courtesy so much as a way to minimize emails.

 

Maybe, like me, people don't WANT the potential hassle of emailing and waiting for a response that may or may not come. That's where the concept of "courtesy" comes into play...a clear and immediate response without the need to rely on a fallible and fickle human. And no, it's not about "instant gratification"...it's about just not wanting to have to deal with a the expectation of a response that may never come.

 

It's kind of like not posting your business' hours of operation anywhere and expecting everyone to call to find out when you're open.

But hey, if you always plan to answer the phone and don't mind folks calling at all hours...up to you.

 

Since when did it become encumbent incumbent on cache owners to respond to coordinate check requests at all?

 

I think I must have missed that memo.

 

No checker? A non-responsive owner? Not fun. Could be a waste of time and gas money.

Edited February 3, 2015 by L0ne.R

[cezanne]

In my opinion, avoiding geocheckers wherever possible is something which suggests itself.

 

You might as well avoid all web sites then because there isn't anything inherent about a coordinate verification site that makes any riskier than any other web site.

 

I guess you misunderstood me. I was not referring to the potential danger of passwords getting hacked.

But why should someone contribute actively to the risk that the final coordinates of many geocaches can be rather easily obtained?

Of course, also the site geocaching.com could be hacked, but why adding to the risk and relying on sites which are taken care of only as a hobby without someone regularly taking care of security issues (which of course does not still not guarantee that no hacks are happening)? I think it is questionable to provide the final coordinates to more sites than necessary.

 

I cannot judge about the risk involved in North America. I live in an area where many countries are around where there are cachers for whom increasing their find numbers is an important goal that sets them almost no limits ....

 

Cezanne

Edited February 3, 2015 by cezanne

[+narcissa]

No checker? A non-responsive owner? Not fun. Could be a waste my time and gas money.

 

Could be the time of your life! The best I've ever done were ones with no checker and an unresponsive owner. Makes it all the more satisfying when I actually find them. No such thing as waste time or gas when I'm geocaching, even if I don't succeed that day.

[+L0ne.R]

No checker? A non-responsive owner? Not fun. Could be a waste my time and gas money.

 

Could be the time of your life! The best I've ever done were ones with no checker and an unresponsive owner. Makes it all the more satisfying when I actually find them. No such thing as waste time or gas when I'm geocaching, even if I don't succeed that day.

 

Yes, some like their geocaching to be a challenge. Me, I enjoy geocaching not for the challenge but for where it takes me and the fun of finding something that is hidden away from non-geocachers but meant to be found. I don't recall ever enjoying not finding a cache. Guess that's why I like having a geochecker on our cache. Those that would prefer the challenge could skip the checker.

[+narcissa]

No checker? A non-responsive owner? Not fun. Could be a waste my time and gas money.

 

Could be the time of your life! The best I've ever done were ones with no checker and an unresponsive owner. Makes it all the more satisfying when I actually find them. No such thing as waste time or gas when I'm geocaching, even if I don't succeed that day.

 

Yes, some like their geocaching to be a challenge. Me, I enjoy geocaching not for the challenge but for where it takes me and the fun of finding something that is hidden away from non-geocachers but meant to be found. I don't recall ever enjoying not finding a cache. Guess that's why I like having a geochecker on our cache. Those that would prefer the challenge could skip the checker.

 

Not all caches are for all people.

[knowschad]

No checker? A non-responsive owner? Not fun. Could be a waste my time and gas money.

 

Could be the time of your life! The best I've ever done were ones with no checker and an unresponsive owner. Makes it all the more satisfying when I actually find them. No such thing as waste time or gas when I'm geocaching, even if I don't succeed that day.

 

Yes, some like their geocaching to be a challenge. Me, I enjoy geocaching not for the challenge but for where it takes me and the fun of finding something that is hidden away from non-geocachers but meant to be found. I don't recall ever enjoying not finding a cache. Guess that's why I like having a geochecker on our cache. Those that would prefer the challenge could skip the checker.

 

Not all caches are for all people.

That's true. Some caches are crappy caches.

 

 

 

[+SwineFlew]

No checker? A non-responsive owner? Not fun. Could be a waste my time and gas money.

 

Could be the time of your life! The best I've ever done were ones with no checker and an unresponsive owner. Makes it all the more satisfying when I actually find them. No such thing as waste time or gas when I'm geocaching, even if I don't succeed that day.

 

Yes, some like their geocaching to be a challenge. Me, I enjoy geocaching not for the challenge but for where it takes me and the fun of finding something that is hidden away from non-geocachers but meant to be found. I don't recall ever enjoying not finding a cache. Guess that's why I like having a geochecker on our cache. Those that would prefer the challenge could skip the checker.

 

Not all caches are for all people.

But that is not for you to decided. I get so tired of cachers saying that.

[knowschad]

No checker? A non-responsive owner? Not fun. Could be a waste my time and gas money.

 

Could be the time of your life! The best I've ever done were ones with no checker and an unresponsive owner. Makes it all the more satisfying when I actually find them. No such thing as waste time or gas when I'm geocaching, even if I don't succeed that day.

 

Yes, some like their geocaching to be a challenge. Me, I enjoy geocaching not for the challenge but for where it takes me and the fun of finding something that is hidden away from non-geocachers but meant to be found. I don't recall ever enjoying not finding a cache. Guess that's why I like having a geochecker on our cache. Those that would prefer the challenge could skip the checker.

 

Not all caches are for all people.

And some caches are not for anybody.

[+niraD]

Not all caches are for all people.

But that is not for you to decided. I get so tired of cachers saying that.

Who is deciding anything for anyone else?

 

If narcissa (or anyone else) hides a puzzle cache that YOU don't enjoy, then it is YOU who should be free to decide that that particular cache is not for YOU. It is not the cache owner deciding that the cache isn't for YOU. It is YOU making the decision YOURSELF.

[+SwineFlew]

Not all caches are for all people.

But that is not for you to decided. I get so tired of cachers saying that.

Who is deciding anything for anyone else?

 

If narcissa (or anyone else) hides a puzzle cache that YOU don't enjoy, then it is YOU who should be free to decide that that particular cache is not for YOU. It is not the cache owner deciding that the cache isn't for YOU. It is YOU making the decision YOURSELF.

Yelling at people is rude. No need to do that. It was uncalled for.

 

Its the tone when people say Not all caches are for you to find.

 

Most local caching community are helpful in sharing puzzle coordinates. Especially when the CO of the puzzle is hard to deal with.

[4wheelin_fool]

..

Edited February 3, 2015 by 4wheelin_fool

[+GeoLog81]

 

Most local caching community are helpful in sharing puzzle coordinates. Especially when the CO of the puzzle is hard to deal with.

 

Yeah. And it's exactly what has happened...

 

AFAIK it was not what the geocaching was originally intended to be...

[+niraD]

Not all caches are for all people.

Its the tone when people say Not all caches are for you to find.

Maybe that's where the miscommunication lies.

 

I read narcissa's comment as equivalent to "Not all movies are enjoyed by all people." Not everyone enjoys action flicks, or horror flicks, or romantic comedies, or musicals, or whatever. So go see the kinds of movies that you enjoy, instead of the kinds of movies that you don't enjoy. Likewise, go find the kinds of caches that you enjoy, instead of the kinds of caches that you don't enjoy.

 

But SwineFlew seems to be interpreting narcissa's comment as something along the lines of "Not all movies are available to all people." And around the world, there are various age-based rating systems. Depending on its rating, a movie may not be available to younger audience members unless they are accompanied by their parents (or other adults). But I really don't think this is an appropriate interpretation or analogy for comment like "Not all caches are for all people."

[cezanne]

Most local caching community are helpful in sharing puzzle coordinates. Especially when the CO of the puzzle is hard to deal with.

 

In my experience the sharing does not depend at all on the cache owners. Getting the final coordinates means saving the time and effort even to start dealing with a cache whether it be a single stage puzzle cache, a multi cache, a Wherigo or a puzzle cache with several stages.

 

I provide more help and feedback for my caches than geocheckers ever could, but of course I do not hand out solutions and do not give away the key elements of a cache which is however exactly what those who share coordinates wish to get. That's not a question geochecher yes or no.

[cezanne]

 

Most local caching community are helpful in sharing puzzle coordinates. Especially when the CO of the puzzle is hard to deal with.

 

Yeah. And it's exactly what has happened...

 

AFAIK it was not what the geocaching was originally intended to be...

 

Sharing of coordinates: no.

 

Caches with mystery elements: I do not agree with you. Consider e.g. my most favourited cache. The questions to be answered at home are only smart part of the cache and they prepare for the rest. Of course the cache is targeted towards a certain group of cachers - not those who want a quick find and are into geocaching to find hidden containers.

However my caches attracts much more cachers than caches like these two for example

http://www.geocaching.com/geocache/GC4947M_johann-und-paul-direttissima

http://www.geocaching.com/geocache/GC506DC_langlaufen-auf-der-hebalm

which are undoable for 99% of the cachers in the area due to the rigorous time limits.

 

Geocaching became more diverse over the years - the bucket hidden with some items is not any longer the only available form of cache.

The diversity brings with it that not everyone will like each type of cache.

 

Can you explain me why the two Wherigos or tree climbing caches are e.g. better suited for geocaching than this combined mystery/multi cache of mine

http://www.geocaching.com/geocache/GCT7RB_chacun-a-son-gout?guid=811ad559-6814-4833-bf80-ad1faa3b8195 ?

You get an extensive outdoor experience when you do that cache (of course only when visiting all the stages and not when just going to the final).

 

 

Cezanne

[+Team Microdot]

Its the tone when people say Not all caches are for you to find.

 

Most local caching community are helpful in sharing puzzle coordinates. Especially when the CO of the puzzle is hard to deal with.

 

Sometime controlling puzzle CO is one of the reason why some cachers look another way to find the coordinates.

 

I know a case that happen to me. A puzzle CO didnt want to give me any hints but he was giving hints to everybody else. It said so in many logs on the cache page.

 

Another case and different puzzle CO, I asked for a hint and he gave me a bad hint on propose and I finally gave up after many emails between me and him. When I finally asked someone that solved it, I found out what the CO was doing to me! I found the cache and told the CO via email that hes a jerk, but he cant delete my log.

 

This is a small example of behaviors that puzzle CO could lead cachers to find the coordinates in other means.

 

I am afraid that most puzzle CO aren't fair of picking who they want to help. From my point of view of a bunch puzzle CO, they are power tripper.

 

I dont support hacking in any websites. However, I think this would had be avoided if GS change the rules about spoilers on their forum.

 

I can see quite how puzzle cache owners wouldn't wish to help people with this type of viewpoint.

 

If I were a gambling man I would wager, on the balance of statistical probabilities, that whoever hacked geocheck.org shared a very similar viewpoint.

[+L0ne.R]

1422948195[/url]' post='5469817']

1422930558[/url]' post='5469761']Not all caches are for all people.

1422940077[/url]' post='5469795']Its the tone when people say Not all caches are for you to find.

Maybe that's where the miscommunication lies.

 

I read narcissa's comment as equivalent to "Not all movies are enjoyed by all people." Not everyone enjoys action flicks, or horror flicks, or romantic comedies, or musicals, or whatever. So go see the kinds of movies that you enjoy, instead of the kinds of movies that you don't enjoy. Likewise, go find the kinds of caches that you enjoy, instead of the kinds of caches that you don't enjoy.

 

But SwineFlew seems to be interpreting narcissa's comment as something along the lines of "Not all movies are available to all people." And around the world, there are various age-based rating systems. Depending on its rating, a movie may not be available to younger audience members unless they are accompanied by their parents (or other adults). But I really don't think this is an appropriate interpretation or analogy for comment like "Not all caches are for all people."

Maybe SwineFlew is interpreting it as the movie could have Closed Captioning for the Deaf and Hard of Hearing, but instead of providing CC the theatre owner shrugs and says 'Well not all movies are for all people'.

[+Team Microdot]

I think I detect a whiff of Godwin's law on the breeze...

[cezanne]

Maybe SwineFlew is interpreting it as the movie could have Closed Captioning for the Deaf and Hard of Hearing, but instead of providing CC the theatre owner shrugs and says 'Well not all movies are for all people'.

 

But wouldn't that be an overreaction in the geocaching/geochecker context?

 

As I have said before I offer more help and feedback to cachers with an honest interest into my caches than any geochecker can offer.

But my caches are targeted to be enjoyed by a certain group of cachers. Those who look for a very fast gratification and are interested only in searching for containers and not at all

in history will not enjoy my most favourited caches. There is nothing bad in making this explicit right from the beginning and I do not think that I should provide the coordinates of the final for free to those who just want to add another "+1" to their finds.

 

To me that's comparable to requesting that caches are not allowed to be hidden on trees because I'm physically not able to do tree climbing. I also do not request that the time limit for the Wherigos I have linked to above is increased such that I manage the challenge. This would seem ridiculous to me.

 

I think that caches that are made such that they are doable for everyone will finally not appeal to anyone - people are different and I do not think that this is a problem.

 

Cezanne

[+GeoLog81]

 

You get an extensive outdoor experience when you do that cache (of course only when visiting all the stages and not when just going to the final).

 

I was writing about the mysteries with (almost) no outdoor experience. Sit 5 hours before screen and drive to find a micro under the stone near road.

 

And those are the typical mysteries where you need a checker.

[Mr.Yuck]

I think I detect a whiff of Godwin's law on the breeze...

 

I think Hitler would have shared puzzle cache coordinates.

[+Team Microdot]

I think I detect a whiff of Godwin's law on the breeze...

 

I think Hitler would have shared puzzle cache coordinates.

 

Redacted - more vulgar language in that youtube video than I remembered

Edited February 3, 2015 by Team Microdot

[+L0ne.R]

Maybe SwineFlew is interpreting it as the movie could have Closed Captioning for the Deaf and Hard of Hearing, but instead of providing CC the theatre owner shrugs and says 'Well not all movies are for all people'.

 

But wouldn't that be an overreaction in the geocaching/geochecker context?

 

As I have said before I offer more help and feedback to cachers with an honest interest into my caches than any geochecker can offer.

But my caches are targeted to be enjoyed by a certain group of cachers. Those who look for a very fast gratification and are interested only in searching for containers and not at all

in history will not enjoy my most favourited caches. There is nothing bad in making this explicit right from the beginning and I do not think that I should provide the coordinates of the final for free to those who just want to add another "+1" to their finds.

 

To me that's comparable to requesting that caches are not allowed to be hidden on trees because I'm physically not able to do tree climbing. I also do not request that the time limit for the Wherigos I have linked to above is increased such that I manage the challenge. This would seem ridiculous to me.

 

I think that caches that are made such that they are doable for everyone will finally not appeal to anyone - people are different and I do not think that this is a problem.

 

Cezanne

 

My beef is with people who share coordinates and don't attempt the puzzle or the stages. At least if they attempt the puzzle they will get a fuller experience and understand why the final cache is the way it is. Using a checker to confirm that they got the puzzle right, at least for my puzzle caches (not saying every cache owner needs to do the same) doesn't distract from the experience and hopefully enhances the experience. There are so few visits to my puzzles that adding another roadblock would probably cut the visits to maybe 4 visits a year, except for the monthly mega power cachers visits when one person shares the final coords with 30 other people who visit en masse never having laid eyes on the puzzle page. It's possible that not having a geochecker would decrease the individual player who at least tries at the puzzle, and might contribute the problem of sharing.

[cezanne]

My beef is with people who share coordinates and don't attempt the puzzle or the stages. At least if they attempt the puzzle they will get a fuller experience and understand why the final cache is the way it is. Using a checker to confirm that they got the puzzle right, at least for my puzzle caches (not saying every cache owner needs to do the same) doesn't distract from the experience and hopefully enhances the experience.

 

There is nothing bad in itself by offering a geochecker (apart from the risk that a large number of solutions gets into the wrong hands, but that's not something at the level of the cache owner).

The point I tried to make is that there is nothing bad in itself by not offering a geochecker and deciding that for certain caches other approaches are more suitable.

 

I have used geocheckers to confirm my solutions to caches, too, and I also need to admit that sometimes I played around with them instead of answering all questions (if they bored me).

There is no black white picture in my opinion.

 

I think there should be room for puzzle caches with checkers and puzzle caches without checkers (both with owners providing help and with owners not providing help).

If I'm not sure about the correctness of a solution to a puzzle cache far from my home and the owner does not reply to my request for confirmation, I simply decide not to go for that

cache expect I wanted to visit that candidate spot anyway for other reasons. That way I do not waste anything (the time invested into the puzzle would have been invested with and without geochecker).

 

 

There are so few visits to my puzzles that adding another roadblock would probably cut the visits to maybe 4 visits a year, except for the monthly mega power cachers visits when one person shares the final coords with 30 other people who visit en masse never having laid eyes on the puzzle page. It's possible that not having a geochecker would decrease the individual player who at least tries at the puzzle, and might contribute the problem of sharing.

 

I do not think that the non availability of a geochecker contributes to the sharing issue at non neglectable level. For example, in the case which now showed up in Germany the file had about about half the size before it very quickly increased by the addition of several thousands of final solutions of caches which all had geocheck.org as checker. So the list could grow that much only be exploiting the geochecker hack. Many of the really hard puzzle caches are not in the list while many trivial and very easy caches are in the list because the final coordinates were part of geocheck.org.

 

I'm not arguing however that anyone should remove an existing geochecker option from his/her caches. My argument is just that the existence of caches without geocheckers does not contribute to the sharing issue.

 

For my own caches, people typically need a feedback of what they got wrong and I'm sure I'm better in providing with carefully placed hints than a machine. Some of my caches are quite complex and everyone who knows them will agree that geochecker are not a good idea of them. Of course there will be cachers who decide to not visit my caches because they do not want to ask me for confirmation and/or help, but that's life. There are many other caches for them to visit and I do not mind to lose certain potential visitors to my caches.

 

I do not an issue if someone decides to include a geochecker. I do have an issue with those who want to force every puzzle cache owner to add a checker for every puzzle cache and who use the absence of a geochecker as an argument for behaving very unfairly.

 

 

Cezanne

[+narcissa]

No checker? A non-responsive owner? Not fun. Could be a waste my time and gas money.

 

Could be the time of your life! The best I've ever done were ones with no checker and an unresponsive owner. Makes it all the more satisfying when I actually find them. No such thing as waste time or gas when I'm geocaching, even if I don't succeed that day.

 

Yes, some like their geocaching to be a challenge. Me, I enjoy geocaching not for the challenge but for where it takes me and the fun of finding something that is hidden away from non-geocachers but meant to be found. I don't recall ever enjoying not finding a cache. Guess that's why I like having a geochecker on our cache. Those that would prefer the challenge could skip the checker.

 

Not all caches are for all people.

But that is not for you to decided. I get so tired of cachers saying that.

 

Individual cachers have many tools at their disposal to assess caches and select the ones that are best suited to them. It is *your* decision which caches are for you. If you want to find a cache, great! Go for it! Your desire to find a cache does not oblige the owner to assist you. The owner is responsible for maintaining the cache itself, and for maintaining the cache listing to give you the information you need to make the decision yourself. That's it.

 

Cache owners are under no obligation to create caches that appeal to everyone, or are accessible to everyone. Some barriers are a matter of physical ability, some are a matter of personal inclination. We don't expect every traditional cache to be a park and grab, so why do so many people expect every mystery cache to be easy for them? Should I cry and complain every time I see a terrain 4.5 because I don't feel like climbing a mountain and I want the owner to help me?

Edited February 3, 2015 by narcissa

[+Team Microdot]

Individual cachers have many tools at their disposal to assess caches and select the ones that are best suited to them. It is *your* decision which caches are for you. If you want to find a cache, great! Go for it! Your desire to find a cache does not oblige the owner to assist you. The owner is responsible for maintaining the cache itself, and for maintaining the cache listing to give you the information you need to make the decision yourself. That's it.

 

Cache owners are under no obligation to create caches that appeal to everyone, or are accessible to everyone. Some barriers are a matter of physical ability, some are a matter of personal inclination. We don't expect every traditional cache to be a park and grab, so why do so many people expect every mystery cache to be easy for them? Should I cry and complain every time I see a terrain 4.5 because I don't feel like climbing a mountain and I want the owner to help me?

 

+1

[cezanne]

 

You get an extensive outdoor experience when you do that cache (of course only when visiting all the stages and not when just going to the final).

 

I was writing about the mysteries with (almost) no outdoor experience. Sit 5 hours before screen and drive to find a micro under the stone near road.

 

And those are the typical mysteries where you need a checker.

 

But the more involved the outdoor part of a cache is, the more cachers tend to share coordinates as they do not want to invest much time into a single cache.

Many cachers do not even feel ashamed when visiting the final of a 140km hiking multi cache without having went for the hike. That's certainly not an issue of

too many puzzles and no geocheckers, it is a sign of a geocaching world in which increasing find counts and finding many containers regardless of how has become the

priority number 1. People argue like that "I do not have time to go for a long hike, or I hate hiking, but I like increasing my find count. So why shouldn't I log whichever cache.

It's just a game". In my opinion, this line of arguing is the much greater problem than the proportion of mystery caches can ever be.

 

For a puzzle cache with a single stage where a micro is to be found at a boring location, it will not hurt the cache owner that much if the coordinates of the final are shared than it

does for caches with multiple intermediate stages of interest. Then caches that show a lot will get lame logs due to the fact that those cachers skip all the interesting parts of a cache.

[+narcissa]

I think I detect a whiff of Godwin's law on the breeze...

 

I think Hitler would have shared puzzle cache coordinates.

 

I think Hitler would have gradually implemented arbitrary rules on cache owners until just a select handful of people could hide film cans in lampposts.

[+narcissa]

 

You get an extensive outdoor experience when you do that cache (of course only when visiting all the stages and not when just going to the final).

 

I was writing about the mysteries with (almost) no outdoor experience. Sit 5 hours before screen and drive to find a micro under the stone near road.

 

And those are the typical mysteries where you need a checker.

 

Incorrect. A mystery doesn't ever *need* a checker. It is solely the discretion of the cache owner.

 

You can choose to ignore mysteries that don't have them, if you feel they would be a waste of your time. You don't have to find every cache.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

 

Cache owners are under no obligation to create caches that appeal to everyone, or are accessible to everyone.

 

I can agree with this but I think it's just an excuse for a stubborn reluctance to include a coordinate checker. Puzzle caches, in general, appeal to me, and unless the cache is located somewhere that I would be physically incapable of getting to accessibility isn't an issue either. If I solve a puzzle cache and there isn't a coordinate checker, and I decide to look for the cache without confirmed coordinates, at best I might just waste a lot of time searching somewhere that isn't anywhere close to where the cache is hidden. I might also be searching in a place where I shouldn't be at all. If the coordinates take me to a place that is on private property I (or anyone else that came up with the solution to the puzzle) could run the risk of being arrested, or jeopardize the game if the land manager makes a big enough stink about it. After all, cache owners or not obligated to specifically state that permission was granted to place the cache on the cache listing.

[cezanne]

If I solve a puzzle cache and there isn't a coordinate checker, and I decide to look for the cache without confirmed coordinates,

 

But if you make the decision to look for a cache without confirmed coordinates (a situation which by the way arises in almost every multi cache), that's your decision. You as well could ask the cache owner for confirmation and stay at home when you do not get a reply.

 

narcissa clearly stated that she is replying to mails regarding confirmation. Instead of calling her approach stubborn, I rather think that those who insist on automatic checkers are much closer to being stubborn. Automatic checkers have advantages and drawbacks, as have other methods for providing checks.

Not everyone will have the same preferences. There are people who prefer if they can arrange appointments with their physician by electronically instead of having to call, but noone will require all physicians to provide the option to arrange appointments by mail or web form.

Edited February 3, 2015 by cezanne

[+cerberus1]

Much of my area, only the tougher puzzles have a checker.

Having a multiple choice of an artist's real name isn't the same as solving a cipher.

 

We were thinking if we decide to place any new caches, they'd be ridiculously easy puzzles too, likely not needing a checker.

[Andronicus]

Well I use GeoChecker.com. That is a different site altogether right?

[+cerberus1]

...if you make the decision to look for a cache without confirmed coordinates (a situation which by the way arises in almost every multi cache), that's your decision.

+1

Never heard of anyone asking for confirmation between stages...

[+NYPaddleCacher]

If I solve a puzzle cache and there isn't a coordinate checker, and I decide to look for the cache without confirmed coordinates,

 

But if you make the decision to look for a cache without confirmed coordinates (a situation which by the way arises in almost any multi caches), that's your decision. You as well could ask the cache owner for confirmation and stay at home when you do not get a reply.

 

In that case, the choice not to look for the cache isn't because the cache appears to be unappealing or inaccessible, but because the CO intentionally hasn't provided information that would help make that determination. In my case, since most of my geocaching is done while traveling, emailing a cache owner and waiting for a response just isn't practical.

 

 

narcissa clearly stated that she is replying to mails regarding confirmation. Instead of calling her approach stubborn, I rather think that those who insist on automatic checkers are much closer to being stubborn.

 

I am not insisting that every CO provide an automatic checker. I just think that those that do are making an extra effort to help potential finders of their caches and I can't imagine any potential finder would prefer that the CO didn't provide that extra help. No, the CO isn't obligated to do, but there are many things in life that we're not obligated to do but we do anyway as an act of kindness or courtesy and expect nothing in return.

 

 

[cezanne]

Well I use GeoChecker.com. That is a different site altogether right?

 

Yes, it is. There are others like evince as well (evince e.g. stores only hashes if exact verification is chosen while geocheck.org did not apply any hashing).

[cezanne]

If I solve a puzzle cache and there isn't a coordinate checker, and I decide to look for the cache without confirmed coordinates,

 

But if you make the decision to look for a cache without confirmed coordinates (a situation which by the way arises in almost any multi caches), that's your decision. You as well could ask the cache owner for confirmation and stay at home when you do not get a reply.

 

In that case, the choice not to look for the cache isn't because the cache appears to be unappealing or inaccessible, but because the CO intentionally hasn't provided information that would help make that determination. In my case, since most of my geocaching is done while traveling, emailing a cache owner and waiting for a response just isn't practical.

 

I did not say anything about unappealing or inaccessible.

I know many puzzle caches where one does not find the solution within a few seconds, so the time to write an e-mail for confirmation does not play a major role.

 

I am not insisting that every CO provide an automatic checker. I just think that those that do are making an extra effort to help potential finders of their caches and I can't imagine any potential finder would prefer that the CO didn't provide that extra help. No, the CO isn't obligated to do, but there are many things in life that we're not obligated to do but we do anyway as an act of kindness or courtesy and expect nothing in return.

 

There are many more reasons not to provide an automatic checker than not doing it because one does not get anything in return.

Believe me that providing manual checks and helpful comments for my caches does certainly take more time than offering geocheckers (which would not be that helpful for my caches anyhow).

 

There are certainly puzzle caches where providing automatic checkers makes sense (like some of the old Earth caches with weak logging tasks could be handled by automatic responders), but there are others where this does not make sense and would at best lead to attacks by some kind of partial battleship games.

 

Moreover, as mentioned the risk that the final coordinates get into wrong hands is increased when using geocheckers.

 

None of my caches is suited for a traveler who has not several hours at his/her disposition. SO explain my convincingly why I should provide a geochecker for my caches? Those who want to be sure to be at the right location, are not well off with my caches anyway as they will have the same doubts about some further stages and/or the final too. (That's not a guess - I know it from mails I received over the years.)

 

I agree with you that offering a checker and a manual check will certainly increase the number of cachers who potentially take a cache into consideration. One should not forget however that it does not mean to be unkind when one does not design a cache upfront in the manner that it attracts the highest number of cachers possible for that sort of cache. Sometimes e.g.

I intentionally write long paragraphs at the beginning of the cache listing to scare a certain group of people away. Of course I lose with this approach some cachers that potentially would enjoy my caches, but I also manage to deter many of those I want to deter. The motivation behind is not at all unkindness or expecting anything in return. I try to manage to make my caches work as long as possible for those who are my main target audience. The way my caches are they would not have survived for that long if I had set up in a way that they appeal to the masses.

 

If you happened to travel to my area, my caches certainly would not be a good fit for you, not even if you had plenty of time available. Of course, every cache owner who does not use geocheckers has his/her reasons. One of the biggest mistakes in all these sorts of discussions seems to be however the assumption that every cache owner minds if he/she loses certain visitors which is simply wrong.

 

Cezanne

[+narcissa]

...if you make the decision to look for a cache without confirmed coordinates (a situation which by the way arises in almost every multi cache), that's your decision.

+1

Never heard of anyone asking for confirmation between stages...

 

Oh, I sure have.

[+narcissa]

I am not insisting that every CO provide an automatic checker. I just think that those that do are making an extra effort to help potential finders of their caches and I can't imagine any potential finder would prefer that the CO didn't provide that extra help. No, the CO isn't obligated to do, but there are many things in life that we're not obligated to do but we do anyway as an act of kindness or courtesy and expect nothing in return.

 

No, not insisting, just putting that "kindness" and "courtesy" silliness into it. Your sense of "courtesy" is based on your personal preferences.

 

There are, in fact, cachers who think that a checker diminishes a tricky mystery cache by making it easier. In order to be "courteous" to you, I must be "discourteous" to them.

 

Since I have to be "discourteous" to someone, I might as well trust my own feelings on the issue. It is, after all, my cache. I am not losing out if some people choose not to find it because it doesn't meet their needs.