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Benefits of Premium membership


greganon

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It seems I'm under attack so I'll resort to some of your methods of quoting specific statements and making snide remarks.

To be clear, with a couple of possible exceptions, the majority of the posts in this discussion have been attempting to provide you with useful information. Any attitude you have received was likely triggered by a similar attitude initiated by you. We've tried to be helpful, but it seems like you've already made your mind up and nothing we say will change your mind. You're free to have your own opinion of this website, but some of us feel you may be basing it on flawed information and assumptions. We're just trying to give you the necessary information so you can make an informed decision.

 

Yes, there are limitations if you play for free. That's the way this site (and many others) work. It certainly isn't impossible to play for free, though. If you read through this discussion again, you'll see several cachers who cached for years without paying, so it's definitely viable. As for shady apps, most of the "unofficial" apps are approved by Groundspeak to access information from their database and are perfectly safe to use.

 

If you'll only consider playing a game if you get complete and unlimited access using official tools for free, then I'm sorry to say that this website isn't for you. Millions have decided to use it, but it can never be a perfect fit for everyone. Unfortunately, it seems that your specific situation and opinion just don't mesh with what this website has to offer. That's nobody's fault. The game just isn't for everyone.

 

Thank you A-Team, this is the nicest post by far. And you're absolutely right that many of the posts tried to be helpful. Unfortunately some did not and those bad apples really soured this experience. If you reread my posts, I apologized if my viewpoints offended anyone, so I insist that it was never my goal to trigger all of those defensive responses. As your last paragraph states, we can just agree to disagree, no need for calling my post hogwash or a "hissy-fit" or saying I smell with a picture of a sock monkey. That's just plain rude.

 

Shucks, i thought post #12 was very nice. Oh well, :(

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Wait a minute, you're saying if I become a premium member, I still have to pay $10 for the app?!?! If I'm paying a recurring fee, that app should be free!
So, what other products should be "free" when you buy some other related product? Should gasoline be free when you buy a car? Should a car be free when you buy gasoline? Should reusable grocery bags be free when you buy groceries? Should groceries be free when you buy a reusable grocery bag?

 

Personally, I hope Groundspeak does well. I want them to be successful and stable so they'll keep providing the service that they provide to the geocaching community. It would be nice if they could afford a huge top-tier programming staff (which would require a huge budget for top-tier salaries and benefits), so the service they provide could improve more quickly. I do not begrudge them their profitable business.

 

Those of you stating you can play this game completely and for FREE using the tools Groundspeak provides are WRONG.
I must have completely imagined finding hundreds of geocaches for FREE using only the tools Groundspeak provides and the tools Google provides (and the transportation I provided, of course). I didn't even pay for a GPS device until I had found hundreds of caches.

 

So sorry that you were misled.

Edited by niraD
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Huh. Seems we're going around in circles.

Access to the forums and webpage, and access to the app that allows play - completely free. Really.

When it's an obsession, pay for extra features - if you want to.

There's not even a trial period - it's when YOU want to. Complete, utter, choice.

 

Can I ask what it is that's bothering you, now knowing you can participate free of cost?

Edited by FourFunKiwis
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Can I ask what it is that's bothering you, now knowing you can participate free of cost?

I don't speak for the OP. The only thing that I find irksome about playing without paying for a premium membership is premium member only geocaches. To know that there are some caches I cannot see unless I pay up just rubs me the wrong way. Now, this is after years of geocaching (and being a PM all this time), when I know that PMO doesn't mean they are any better than "normal" geocaches.

 

To the OP : people make their caches Premium Member Only for a number of reasons. Sometimes, it is because "I want to encourage others to become premium members", which I don't agree with, but it's their cache so it's their choice. Sometimes, it is because they are hiding in a problematic area, where someone keeps stealing or vandalizing caches. These vandals generally don't want to pay $30 / year just to vandalize caches, so it helps keep those caches safe.

 

Also to the OP : why not describe what equipment you're using, then ask people how you can geocache without paying for the app and without paying for the membership? Yes, there will always be some who will say you should give back to the game by paying Groundspeak. To that, I say : if you want to give back to the game, hide some good geocaches, and maintain them.

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Wait a minute, you're saying if I become a premium member, I still have to pay $10 for the app?!?! If I'm paying a recurring fee, that app should be free! To me that is outrageous, so I did a little google search on Groundspeak profits, and here was the first article that came up:

http://www.businessinsider.com/these-guys-sold-t-shirts-to-turn-their-hobby-into-one-of-the-hottest-web-businesses-in-seattle-2011-7

 

So basically I pay $10 for an app and $2.50 a month so that Groundspeak can give their employees free ski lift tickets and free food? How can some of you honestly sit there and defend this company???

I've been through some tough times and seeing that article just made my blood boil. I hope I got at least one person to think about it.

 

It's great that you posted in here, as it's evident that premium membership is not for you. It's also obvious that geocaching is not for you either, so you don't need to visit geocaches and raid the golf balls and McDonalds toys to leave receipts and rocks. Most of the planet reads that article and thinks that it's great how 3 people built a company from the ground up, but somehow you think that it's wrong enough to make your blood boil. Groundspeak is a business that makes money like any other business. They pay their employees like any other business. Whether they spend their salary on ski lift tickets and food is their business. This isn't a homeless supply outfit with volunteers leaving supplies in the woods, it's a game. It's completely free and premium membership is completely unnecessary, as well as the app. I'll be nice and guess you are posting from Cuba, Venezuela, or Russia.

 

I looked into freedompop, and discovered plenty of users complaining that they were a scam and bottom feeders. Customer service puts you on hold for a long time and then hangs up. Others don't use the equipment at all, but then get billed outrageous usage fees. Positive feedback is written in the style of one person. Looks like the Feds will eventually shut them down after a few years of ripping people off. If this is the type of service that you were expecting here from Groundspeak, then you are living in some communist fantasy world. And guess what, the QR code game and others all have premium membership modeled in their business similar to this one. :)

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This thread does seem to have taken a strange turn, it almost seems like the OP's intention all along had an agenda against Groundspeak's model and Premium Membership in particular.

 

For the record I think the model here is excellent and provides a solution for everyone, you can cache for $0 using the free "official" app, or by inputting co-ords from the website into your device, or by using some of the other free apps; you can stump up $10 for the "official" app, providing easier access to caches on a phone; and you can stump up $30 for a lot of additional features.

 

FWIW I know a caching couple who started out by finding over 500 caches completely free (they didn't even have a smartphone or GPS), they simply plotted the co-ords from the cache pages on a paper map and off they went.

 

As for the employee benefits provided by Groundspeak, I think it's fitting that a company who's product is all about having fun outdoors encourages their employees to do outdoor fun activities such as skiing.

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This thread does seem to have taken a strange turn, it almost seems like the OP's intention all along had an agenda against Groundspeak's model and Premium Membership in particular.

 

For the record I think the model here is excellent and provides a solution for everyone, you can cache for $0 using the free "official" app, or by inputting co-ords from the website into your device, or by using some of the other free apps; you can stump up $10 for the "official" app, providing easier access to caches on a phone; and you can stump up $30 for a lot of additional features.

 

FWIW I know a caching couple who started out by finding over 500 caches completely free (they didn't even have a smartphone or GPS), they simply plotted the co-ords from the cache pages on a paper map and off they went.

 

As for the employee benefits provided by Groundspeak, I think it's fitting that a company who's product is all about having fun outdoors encourages their employees to do outdoor fun activities such as skiing.

 

Now that's impressive. I remember starting with a Magellan gps that only showed a black arrow on a greenish screen and this thing called a palm pilot using gsak to keep the caches organized. Remember those things? No phone a friend's or past photos. I downloaded or printed out the coordinate ates one at a time. I was a free member then. Had a Nextel "brick" phone that just made phone calls... no camera or texting or internet. I now have a premium membership and really do not use much of the features. I purchased it because I enjoy the game and like to support them for managing the caches and organizing them here for ease of playing. I played a game called hockey... it cost lots of money. I play baseball, it costs money. Fun things often cost some money. This is actually free if you want it to be. I figure I'll give up one iced latter from dunkin donuts a month and pay for my usage and give support.

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Can I ask what it is that's bothering you, now knowing you can participate free of cost?

I don't speak for the OP. The only thing that I find irksome about playing without paying for a premium membership is premium member only geocaches. To know that there are some caches I cannot see unless I pay up just rubs me the wrong way. Now, this is after years of geocaching (and being a PM all this time), when I know that PMO doesn't mean they are any better than "normal" geocaches.

 

To the OP : people make their caches Premium Member Only for a number of reasons. Sometimes, it is because "I want to encourage others to become premium members", which I don't agree with, but it's their cache so it's their choice. Sometimes, it is because they are hiding in a problematic area, where someone keeps stealing or vandalizing caches. These vandals generally don't want to pay $30 / year just to vandalize caches, so it helps keep those caches safe.

 

Also to the OP : why not describe what equipment you're using, then ask people how you can geocache without paying for the app and without paying for the membership? Yes, there will always be some who will say you should give back to the game by paying Groundspeak. To that, I say : if you want to give back to the game, hide some good geocaches, and maintain them.

 

Thank you!!!! This is the first post to even attempt to understand where I am coming from! These PMO caches just seem unfair to those that can't see them. I loaded the free intro app on my phone last night and sure enough, a nearby park was full of PMO caches and not only could I not see them, I couldn't even find a place to deploy my first cache because the app kept telling me I was too close to a PMO cache that I couldn't even see!!! I didn't even know which direction to go to find a hiding spot. Very frustrating. :( So guess what I did??? I loaded the opencache app, and within minutes I had deployed my very first cache, and spent the rest of the night finding other opencache hides. It was a great time and I am definitely hooked, no thanks to Groundspeak.

 

To 4wheelin fool (sic): No, my first cache was not a tupperware full of receipts and rocks. It was a vintage ammo box from the australian army that my grandfather left to me. I filled it with toys, different coins and tokens (not valuable) I've collected from place to place, some small trinkets that I made from scratch like a quartz necklace and agate rings, and other little treasures that I think will delight people of all ages. I plan to keep this cache well maintained and stocked. And no I'm not from some third world country, and it was not nice of you to assume such. I'm from the good ol USA, and before you think you're all high and mighty, consider this. Anyone can have a normal life one day, and the next day be involved in a hit and run car accident that takes away their family, health, savings, eventually job, and eventually their way of life. Being poor is humiliating enough and your condescension doesn't help. Also freedompop is the best service on the planet, you shouldn't believe everything you read on the internet and you really don't know what you're talking about with regards to that. It's not the only free cell service out there and they will not be shut down any time soon. I'm sorry you're having trouble comprehending true freemium business models.

 

To niraD: No I don't expect gas or groceries to be free. I pay for them just like everyone else, and on my very very limited income that means I don't have extra cash to give to Groundspeak. Please don't treat me like a freeloader or a child or a bum. In addition to opencache, I tried Ingress last night. Another COMPLETELY free app, and it was amazing. And don't tell me that google can afford to give it away. I did my research and Ingress is a separate division with it's own profit margins and ROI expectations. Anyone who knows business knows that companies don't just throw money into a product without hope of return. Ingress makes money on merchandise sales, so that means everyone gets to play the full game for free, and if you have money and want to support the game you buy a t-shirt or mug. And guess what? They are profitable and have over a million downloads. So tell me again why Groundspeak couldn't adopt this model? Heck they even started off selling t-shirts. But somewhere along the way they decided to take a free game like geocaching and turn it into a recurring revenue stream, then managed to brainwash their players into complacently paying without thinking, meanwhile taking their profits and instead of giving back to the geocache community by lowering fees, they instead give their own employees free lift tickets and free cafeteria food. I used to work for a Fortune 50 company - we didn't even get close to having those kinds of perks. But I agree with many of you that say you can't begrudge them for making a profit - heck that's the goal of any business. What they do with their money is their business, I just happen to not agree with how they spend it. If I were in their shoes I would have made sure employees were paid well then taken those profits and invested in the community. Get rid of the app fees and yearly fees. Keep the PMO feature but instead make it a free licensing process - that way your PMO caches are still protected since only registered and verified users can see them. That way you open the playing field up to everyone and you don't sacrifice the security that PMO caches offer. They could also have contests and giveaways, help spread the popularity of geocaching. When was the last time any of you attended an event or received a gift or token from Groundspeak? I welcome anyone to prove me wrong, but my google searches come up empty. All I see are community sponsored events and contests. Opencaching, Ingress, and Munzee, from what I can tell, regularly hold events and contests paid right out of their own pockets. Disagree and make snide comments about those games all you want, I challenge anyone to show me how Groundspeak does something comparable.

 

To Mudfrog: Sorry, yes your post #12 was nice and thank you for posting it. However it did not help me since I wasn't having trouble understanding geocaching. I was trying to understand why I should pay for PM. Like I have said I have tagged along with other geocachers so I know all about how to play. I just couldn't understand why people felt the need to give away their money, and so I wanted to get feedback to see what I was missing. The majority of the feedback basically said "just join us and you'll see" - guess what? That sounds like a cult. I didn't want to give a dime to Groundspeak until I knew what I was in for. Then people started being condescending and degrading, and I read about how Groundspeak spends their profits, and I got upset and said some things I probably shouldn't have. But I'm not going to go back and edit my posts like I see many other people have done. I stand behind everything I said. I apologize again if I hurt anyone's feelings, and I thank everyone who gave me their honest opinion and tried to help. I'm not going to go back and give kudo's to each post, you know who you are. :)

 

To everyone else: I hope the above paragraphs answer your questions if you posted any. I didn't want respond to each one and make this even longer than it already is.

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Thank you!!!! This is the first post to even attempt to understand where I am coming from! These PMO caches just seem unfair to those that can't see them. I loaded the free intro app on my phone last night and sure enough, a nearby park was full of PMO caches and not only could I not see them, I couldn't even find a place to deploy my first cache because the app kept telling me I was too close to a PMO cache that I couldn't even see!!! I didn't even know which direction to go to find a hiding spot. Very frustrating. :( So guess what I did??? I loaded the opencache app, and within minutes I had deployed my very first cache, and spent the rest of the night finding other opencache hides. It was a great time and I am definitely hooked, no thanks to Groundspeak.

 

There are several of the opencaching sites that you speak of, and none in my opinion worth using. But being a member on most, I did not see any new caches submitted for review last night, and none approved. So I'm just taking your post here for what it is, just a rant against Groundspeak.

 

I own and maintain several hundred PMO caches just to keep the intro app users and their unverified accounts from viewing my caches. All of my listings used to be basic until several were muggled by intro app users. I support Groundspeak with my membership fee. And to those of you that use the free services other than Groundspeak, you get what you pay for. :anibad:

Edited by Manville Possum Hunters
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Thank you!!!! This is the first post to even attempt to understand where I am coming from!

 

No, many of us know exactly where you're coming from. You're a no-hide, no find barely few day-old member who has found everything wrong with Groundspeak and barely anything good. You hated it before you even posted. You weren't looking for any answers to your questions as much as a place to vent your hatred against Groundspeak for their success and the cachers who support them.

 

These PMO caches just seem unfair to those that can't see them.

 

There is nothing unfair about them. There are literally hundreds of thousands - if not millions - of caches that are not PMO. You just want everything handed to you. People who choose to pay for premium membership and support Groundspeak should have the right to restrict them from those who don't.

 

Also freedompop is the best service on the planet, you shouldn't believe everything you read on the internet and you really don't know what you're talking about with regards to that.

 

Kind of like how you don't know what you're talking about in regard to Groundspeak? :rolleyes:

 

I'm sorry you're having trouble comprehending true freemium business models.

 

That awkward moment when you realize that while you berate people for being condescending, you're doing it yourself...

 

No I don't expect gas or groceries to be free. I pay for them just like everyone else, and on my very very limited income that means I don't have extra cash to give to Groundspeak.

 

So you think that it's okay to pay for certain goods and services, but somehow not okay to pay for another?

 

So tell me again why Groundspeak couldn't adopt this model?

 

They don't have to? Their model works just fine and most people agree.

 

Heck they even started off selling t-shirts. But somewhere along the way they decided to take a free game like geocaching and turn it into a recurring revenue stream, then managed to brainwash their players into complacently paying without thinking, meanwhile taking their profits and instead of giving back to the geocache community by lowering fees, they instead give their own employees free lift tickets and free cafeteria food.

 

They can do what they like with their revenue. Also, nice way to insult that majority of the geocaching community, there... :rolleyes:

 

Get rid of the app fees and yearly fees. Keep the PMO feature but instead make it a free licensing process - that way your PMO caches are still protected since only registered and verified users can see them. That way you open the playing field up to everyone and you don't sacrifice the security that PMO caches offer.

 

Basically socialism. Thanks, but no thanks.

 

When was the last time any of you attended an event or received a gift or token from Groundspeak? I welcome anyone to prove me wrong, but my google searches come up empty. Disagree and make snide comments about those games all you want, I challenge anyone to show me how Groundspeak does something comparable.

 

I have been to many Mega events and at virtually every one, I have received a gift from a Lackey. HQ travel tags, Lackey tags, etc.

 

Every Mega event is sponsored by Groundspeak. Donations are made by them. I have worked quite a few of them and know this to be completely true. If you're going to speak, at least know what you're talking about.

 

The majority of the feedback basically said "just join us and you'll see" - guess what? That sounds like a cult.

 

Again with the insults. Yes, we're all members of a cult. We worship Signal and hold rituals in the eerie glow of a thousand fire tacks.

 

Oh yeah...I stand behind everything I have said as well.

Edited by Arthur & Trillian
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There are several of the opencaching sites that you speak of, and none in my opinion worth using. But being a member on most, I did not see any new caches submitted for review last night, and none approved. So I'm just taking your post here for what it is, just a rant against Groundspeak.

 

Busted. :ph34r:

 

I own and maintain several hundred PMO caches just to keep the intro app users and their unverified accounts from viewing my caches. All of my listings used to be basic until several were muggled by intro app users.

 

Same here. I got tired of seeing these into app people who don't know a thing about caching wrecking my hides. I get a bit less in the way of finds now, but that's a small price to pay for generally better cachers coming my way.

 

I support Groundspeak with my membership fee. And to those of you that use the free services other than Groundspeak, you get what you pay for. :anibad:

 

Basically, yeah.

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These PMO caches just seem unfair to those that can't see them. I loaded the free intro app on my phone last night and sure enough, a nearby park was full of PMO caches and not only could I not see them,

 

This is why we're doomed as a species.. everything for free, everyone is offended, life has got to be "fair".. whatever fair means. <_<

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When was the last time any of you attended an event or received a gift or token from Groundspeak? I welcome anyone to prove me wrong, but my google searches come up empty. All I see are community sponsored events and contests. Opencaching, Ingress, and Munzee, from what I can tell, regularly hold events and contests paid right out of their own pockets. Disagree and make snide comments about those games all you want, I challenge anyone to show me how Groundspeak does something comparable.

 

Every year they hold a Block Party in Seattle, e.g. http://coord.info/GC5G4X5

 

They send representatives to community organised events round the world, I myself met Jeremy Irish (CEO of Groundspeak) at an event in London, where he was giving away "Groundspeak Lackey" geocoins to attendees.

 

I have also been given a Groundspeak Lackey geocoin for something I wrote on a forum a few years ago.

 

As someone else said they also sponsor Mega events round the world in other ways.

 

I don't expect this will do anything to change your view though.

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Here's a review of Freedompop by Time:

http://techland.time.com/2013/06/05/freedompops-free-wireless-would-be-cool-if-it-wasnt-so-shady/

 

Sketchy. Shady. Hidden surprise fees buried in the contract.

 

This is compared to Groundspeak, that openly offers a completely optional premium membership?

 

Amazon reviews:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/reviews/B009FCGAQC?ie=UTF8&*Version*=1&*entries*=0

 

I don't think you are going to get any sympathy here, being that you haven't found or hidden anything yet, but yet are whining about paying for something that you don't need.

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Sheesh, if you spent five minutes looking around a bit, you could find:

 

1. A totally free app that gets you everything you need, with hundreds of geocachers willing to vouch for it.

 

2. A totally free GPS device from a geocacher who has upgraded and is happy to let a new person have the old one.

 

I don't use my phone to cache, and I don't want to pay more for my premium membership to help develop the app. I'm glad they charge for it so they can use those funds to develop it, while directing premium membership funds to features that are actually useful for me.

 

And I'm glad that Groundspeak is a fun, positive company to work for, so they can continue to employ innovative thinkers who come up with great ideas to make the game better.

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There are several of the opencaching sites that you speak of, and none in my opinion worth using. But being a member on most, I did not see any new caches submitted for review last night, and none approved. So I'm just taking your post here for what it is, just a rant against Groundspeak.

 

Busted. :ph34r:

Yep, I'm busted, I lied about doing it last night because I knew someone would use that information to try and find me. I'm not stupid, this is the Internet. But I swear this actually happened, whether it was last night or last week, and I swear I was at first honestly trying to understand the reasons behind the PM thing. But the more I learned and the more rudely I was treated in this post, the more I came to realize this just isn't the community for me. And I'm glad I didn't give you any private information to use against me...some of you have proven you're itching to do so. That's just wrong on so many levels. I'm sure if someone from this forum actually posted the location of my cache it would be destroyed or go missing - no thanks. That's the level of animosity I am feeling here.

 

And the attacks keep coming...<sigh>. This is a witch hunt, and everything I say will be used against me. It's too bad nobody else on this forum is willing to stand up to the bullying happening here. I see the same names over and over again jumping in and taking apart anything I say. And they keep editing their posts - nobody finds that odd? I'm sure this post will be quoted and snidely pulled apart as well. Maybe you guys should let other people talk?

 

I will admit I was wrong about Groundspeak holding events. I did ask someone to prove me wrong and they did, so I am admitting it. I still think they could do more by getting rid of the silly app fees, but at least they are doing something.

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Sheesh, if you spent five minutes looking around a bit, you could find:

 

1. A totally free app that gets you everything you need, with hundreds of geocachers willing to vouch for it.

 

 

Does this totally free app let me see PMO hides if I'm not PM? Please see my story about not being able to hide my basic cache in a PMO dominated park. If this app you speak of lets me do that then I will stand corrected and admit it. Until then your statement that it "gets you everything you need" is incorrect.

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Sheesh, if you spent five minutes looking around a bit, you could find:

 

1. A totally free app that gets you everything you need, with hundreds of geocachers willing to vouch for it.

 

 

Does this totally free app let me see PMO hides if I'm not PM? Please see my story about not being able to hide my basic cache in a PMO dominated park. If this app you speak of lets me do that then I will stand corrected and admit it. Until then your statement that it "gets you everything you need" is incorrect.

 

Pay the $2.50 a month to see them, find a new area to hide or quit complaining. It's simple.

Edited by Arthur & Trillian
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rudely I was treated in this post

private information to use against me...some of you have proven you're itching to do so.

if someone from this forum actually posted the location of my cache it would be destroyed or go missing

That's the level of animosity I am feeling here.

And the attacks keep coming

This is a witch hunt,

everything I say will be used against me.

the bullying happening here.

I'm sure this post will be quoted and snidely pulled apart as well.

Maybe you guys should let other people talk?

 

Good grief! I have never seen such paranoia! Maybe the internet is not a good place for you to be.

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This is why we're doomed as a species.. everything for free, everyone is offended, life has got to be "fair".. whatever fair means. <_<

 

Oh yes, that's why we're doomed, because of freedom, the right to voice an opinion, and equality. Basically all of the tenants of America. Please, please, please, I am proud to be an American so do not spout your anti-American sentiments here.

 

It must be those reasons and not because of greedy corporations releasing greenhouse gasses and toxic waste into the world. No, we can't blame them at all.

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Good grief! I have never seen such paranoia! Maybe the internet is not a good place for you to be.

 

Actually I have not had this problem anywhere else but here. This is the first forum I've ever been on where someone has tried to determine my location by searching activities I claim to have done last night. And at this point I'm glad I was paranoid.

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Sheesh, if you spent five minutes looking around a bit, you could find:

 

1. A totally free app that gets you everything you need, with hundreds of geocachers willing to vouch for it.

 

 

Does this totally free app let me see PMO hides if I'm not PM? Please see my story about not being able to hide my basic cache in a PMO dominated park. If this app you speak of lets me do that then I will stand corrected and admit it. Until then your statement that it "gets you everything you need" is incorrect.

 

All cache owners need to check on space availability with their reviewer, because of puzzles and multis. I wouldn't dream of putting a cache out without getting the reviewer to okay the spot first.

 

If you see a lot of caches, PMO or otherwise, in a given park, then it's always best practice to find a *new* place to hide a cache.

 

If there are no *new* places to hide caches near you, then it's best practice to simply enjoy being a cache finder without the hassle of cache ownership.

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Good grief! I have never seen such paranoia! Maybe the internet is not a good place for you to be.

 

Actually I have not had this problem anywhere else but here. This is the first forum I've ever been on where someone has tried to determine my location by searching activities I claim to have done last night. And at this point I'm glad I was paranoid.

 

If it's soooooooooooooooo bad here, why are you still posting? :unsure:

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All cache owners need to check on space availability with their reviewer, because of puzzles and multis. I wouldn't dream of putting a cache out without getting the reviewer to okay the spot first.

 

If you see a lot of caches, PMO or otherwise, in a given park, then it's always best practice to find a *new* place to hide a cache.

 

If there are no *new* places to hide caches near you, then it's best practice to simply enjoy being a cache finder without the hassle of cache ownership.

 

First of all, thank you for responding to me without a snide remark or attack. To answer Arthur & Trillian's next question - this is the reason I keep coming back here because some people are being decent enough to provide a good discussion without resorting to bullying or smugness.

 

My problem is this park has a special meaning to me, and I really wanted to put my cache there. There were PMO's all over the place, but if I could just see them I'm sure I could have found a nice little spit in between to deploy mine. But using the intro app I couldn't see them and it wouldn't tell me where to go to avoid them, so I was stuck unless I wanted to start paying 2.50 a month, which seems unfair. I realize I could just give up and be a cache finder, but did you see what I was able to put in my cache? I wanted to share that with the world. I just didn't want to have to pay to be able to do that. Luckily with opencaching I was able to...just a shame I couldn't share it with the Groundspeak community.

 

My goal was never to spark a firestorm. I actually thought I could come in here and have a nice discussion where people said their piece, could admit when someone else had a good point, and were polite and courteous. Never in a million years was I expecting to be called a paranoid socialist freeloader and have people trying to look up my cache location. I'm glad there are a couple of decent folks here but seriously I think some of the others need to be called out for their behavior.

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Sheesh, if you spent five minutes looking around a bit, you could find:

 

1. A totally free app that gets you everything you need, with hundreds of geocachers willing to vouch for it.

 

 

Does this totally free app let me see PMO hides if I'm not PM? Please see my story about not being able to hide my basic cache in a PMO dominated park. If this app you speak of lets me do that then I will stand corrected and admit it. Until then your statement that it "gets you everything you need" is incorrect.

 

It's also quite lean when it comes to other caches....I think it only shows you traditionals and anything under D2/T2. I'm not sure about that, but I know there is more to it than PM limits.

 

If PMs were not an option, I think we'd see a lot of hiders post only multis, puzzles, or higher D/T rating caches (maybe even if the cache doesn't warrant a high D/T), to get the more experienced geocachers. So whether GS sanctions limiting caches or not, cache owners will find ways to limit their audience.

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First of all, thank you for responding to me without a snide remark or attack.

 

Because you didn't bring any of it on yourself...

 

so I was stuck unless I wanted to start paying 2.50 a month, which seems unfair.

 

Life isn't fair. How many times do you need to be told that? Premium members have a right to hide caches away from the prying eyes of those who do not support the site. If that is unfair, then so be it.

 

I realize I could just give up and be a cache finder, but did you see what I was able to put in my cache? I wanted to share that with the world. [snip] ...just a shame I couldn't share it with the Groundspeak community.

 

Now you're something of a downtrodden person being picked on by the evil bad Groundspeak? How dare they give perks to supporters!

 

Never in a million years was I expecting to be called a paranoid socialist freeloader...

 

If it walks like a duck...

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Sheesh, if you spent five minutes looking around a bit, you could find:

 

1. A totally free app that gets you everything you need, with hundreds of geocachers willing to vouch for it.

 

 

Does this totally free app let me see PMO hides if I'm not PM? Please see my story about not being able to hide my basic cache in a PMO dominated park. If this app you speak of lets me do that then I will stand corrected and admit it. Until then your statement that it "gets you everything you need" is incorrect.

 

All cache owners need to check on space availability with their reviewer, because of puzzles and multis. I wouldn't dream of putting a cache out without getting the reviewer to okay the spot first.

 

 

You are soooo right about that. We tend to plant a cache or two per year. In the last 3 years it's been 50/50 whether the spot we pick is really available. And we have 2 PM accounts and the $10 app. These days the reviewers are essential when trying to find a spot. Don't even bother putting too much work into it until you get the thumbs up from the reviewer. Be prepared to hear "your cache is too close to another cache". Be prepared to play Battleship for another spot.

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Good grief! I have never seen such paranoia! Maybe the internet is not a good place for you to be.

 

Actually I have not had this problem anywhere else but here. This is the first forum I've ever been on where someone has tried to determine my location by searching activities I claim to have done last night. And at this point I'm glad I was paranoid.

 

Oh good grief! Just because someone tried to look up a cache you said you placed doesn't mean that anyone is out to get you. For instance, I just looked up L0ne.R's account to see where they are placing caches that is so dense that they have trouble finding new places. That was just out of curiosity, not out of a desire to destroy their caches. You are projecting your negative feelings onto everyone else's comments and turning them into perceived attacks where no attack was intended.

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So basically I pay $10 for an app and $2.50 a month so that Groundspeak can give their employees free ski lift tickets and free food? How can some of you honestly sit there and defend this company???

I find it easy to understand Groundspeak's employee perks. Groundspeak is based in Seattle. They are competing directly with Google (right next door) and many other tech employers for recruitment and retention. They need quality developers and staff to keep up with the growth of the game. If they don't match their competitors' compensation and benefits packages, they won't attract the people with the required skillsets.
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That is another reason that I keep all of my hides PMO. The really smart cyber stalkers here trace my IP adress and come muggle me Altoids tins. :laughing:

 

If all these caches in said park are PMO, that may indicate that it is a high muggle area. I would attempt to contact one of the local cache owners and ask why they use PMO caches in this park. If one of the local cachers was helpful, I would explain that park was special to me, thenask if I could adopt one of their caches or if they would mind archiving one and allowing me to place a cache there.

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Sheesh, if you spent five minutes looking around a bit, you could find:

 

1. A totally free app that gets you everything you need, with hundreds of geocachers willing to vouch for it.

 

 

Does this totally free app let me see PMO hides if I'm not PM? Please see my story about not being able to hide my basic cache in a PMO dominated park. If this app you speak of lets me do that then I will stand corrected and admit it. Until then your statement that it "gets you everything you need" is incorrect.

What I usually do is that I pull up the geocaching web site on my phone while I am hiding the cache and press submit cache for review, the map shows the red circles, regardless of PMO or regular.

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You are soooo right about that. We tend to plant a cache or two per year. In the last 3 years it's been 50/50 whether the spot we pick is really available. And we have 2 PM accounts and the $10 app. These days the reviewers are essential when trying to find a spot. Don't even bother putting too much work into it until you get the thumbs up from the reviewer. Be prepared to hear "your cache is too close to another cache". Be prepared to play Battleship for another spot.

OR, remember that Geocaching is about location and taking people to cool spots. If one area is "saturated," look at the map and find an uncached park or scenic overlook or forest trail. Take cachers someplace NEW!

 

I make it a point not to place a cache within half a mile of another cache unless there is a compelling reason to place one closer. Are there really than many cool, complelling places within 528' of someone else's cache? Hasn't been my experience.

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Good grief! I have never seen such paranoia! Maybe the internet is not a good place for you to be.

 

Actually I have not had this problem anywhere else but here. This is the first forum I've ever been on where someone has tried to determine my location by searching activities I claim to have done last night. And at this point I'm glad I was paranoid.

 

Oh good grief! Just because someone tried to look up a cache you said you placed doesn't mean that anyone is out to get you. For instance, I just looked up L0ne.R's account to see where they are placing caches that is so dense that they have trouble finding new places. That was just out of curiosity, not out of a desire to destroy their caches. You are projecting your negative feelings onto everyone else's comments and turning them into perceived attacks where no attack was intended.

 

FYI, you may have noticed no hides in my account. We have our joint account for cache placements. I'm in southwestern Ontario. The city I'm in is quite cache dense. In 2014 we got a couple of new very keen cachers that filled in most of the empty spots available (around 100 new hides in my geocaching radius in 2014). It's getting harder to find a decent location to hide a cache.

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My problem is this park has a special meaning to me, and I really wanted to put my cache there. There were PMO's all over the place, but if I could just see them I'm sure I could have found a nice little spit in between to deploy mine. But using the intro app I couldn't see them and it wouldn't tell me where to go to avoid them, so I was stuck unless I wanted to start paying 2.50 a month, which seems unfair.

Go to the geocaching map when not logged into the site, such as here: https://www.geocaching.com/map/default.aspx#?ll=28.09742,-80.64188&z=14 (I'm not sure where you are in FL) and look for your park; the PMO caches will show up. Granted, you cannot get very close to see exactly where they are, but you can zoom in a decent amount. And you can switch to aerial/satellite view as well. If you're on Firefox and install the Greasemonkey add-on and the script, "Geocaching Map Enhancements" (HERE), you can drop a marker on each of the caches and draw a 528 ft circle (err, half that, since you're looking at the radius) around them to get a good feel for where you cannot place a cache due to proximity guidelines. Any spot not covered with a circle should be OK.

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My problem is this park has a special meaning to me, and I really wanted to put my cache there. There were PMO's all over the place, but if I could just see them I'm sure I could have found a nice little spit in between to deploy mine. But using the intro app I couldn't see them and it wouldn't tell me where to go to avoid them, so I was stuck unless I wanted to start paying 2.50 a month, which seems unfair.

Go to the geocaching map when not logged into the site, such as here: https://www.geocaching.com/map/default.aspx#?ll=28.09742,-80.64188&z=14 (I'm not sure where you are in FL) and look for your park; the PMO caches will show up. Granted, you cannot get very close to see exactly where they are, but you can zoom in a decent amount. And you can switch to aerial/satellite view as well. If you're on Firefox and install the Greasemonkey add-on and the script, "Geocaching Map Enhancements" (HERE), you can drop a marker on each of the caches and draw a 528 ft circle (err, half that, since you're looking at the radius) around them to get a good feel for where you cannot place a cache due to proximity guidelines. Any spot not covered with a circle should be OK.

There is also the Groundspeak Planning Map Tool. It won't show you the final stages for multis, puzzles, wherigos, letterboxes, etc., but it shows the location of all traditional caches, PMO or not.

Edited by Ladybug Kids
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What I usually do is that I pull up the geocaching web site on my phone while I am hiding the cache and press submit cache for review, the map shows the red circles, regardless of PMO or regular.

 

This is a great tip, thank you for mentioning that. Any idea why the free intro app can't just do this for you? If I'm understanding right, the website map isn't revealing the location of the PMO caches, just the no deploy zones they cause. This would be a great solution for those using the free app. I don't know about you but my phone screen is too small and doesn't display the web site map very well. Would just be nice to have this in the app.

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I find it easy to understand Groundspeak's employee perks. Groundspeak is based in Seattle. They are competing directly with Google (right next door) and many other tech employers for recruitment and retention. They need quality developers and staff to keep up with the growth of the game. If they don't match their competitors' compensation and benefits packages, they won't attract the people with the required skillsets.

You bring up a very interesting point, thank you for mentioning this. If they are competing with Google, then why don't they use Google's business model? I use a LOT of google products, and I don't pay a dime to them directly. Guess who does? Advertisers, other businesses, manufacturers, the list goes on. They discovered they can provide quality products and services without nickel and diming their end users, and still be hugely profitable. I would have no problem if Groundspeak used that model to reward their employees with free stuff. Where I have a problem is when 3 million geocachers paying 2.50 a month are funding those employee perks. I just don't feel like contributing to that, and I'm sorry for getting a bit vocal in my outrage. Hopefully some of you feel the same way, or can understand at least.

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FYI, you may have noticed no hides in my account. We have our joint account for cache placements. I'm in southwestern Ontario. The city I'm in is quite cache dense. In 2014 we got a couple of new very keen cachers that filled in most of the empty spots available (around 100 new hides in my geocaching radius in 2014). It's getting harder to find a decent location to hide a cache.

 

Yeah, I figured you were using a different account for your hides, so I looked at where some of your finds were. Looks like there's lots of room somewhat to the north, though. ;)

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I just couldn't understand why people felt the need to give away their money, and so I wanted to get feedback to see what I was missing. The majority of the feedback basically said "just join us and you'll see" - guess what? That sounds like a cult. I didn't want to give a dime to Groundspeak until I knew what I was in for.

I think there was a misunderstanding here that may have triggered much of the off-topic and borderline-abusive posting here.

 

Looking back at the first bunch of posts in this discussion, the posters weren't suggesting that you start paying and you'd see the benefits; rather, they were suggesting that you try the game for free first, then later think about paying for a Premium Membership. At the time of your first post (and still now), you had yet to log any finds. The suggestions were that you go out and try the game for free first by finding some caches so you'd have a better idea of how it all works and where the benefits of Premium Membership could come into play. Personally, I would advise ANY new players to do this. After all, why pay for something when you have no idea how it works or what the benefits would be?

 

We later learned that you have been out caching with other people, and therefore have some knowledge of the game, so that's good. I'm just trying to put the initial posts in context, because I think you may have misunderstood their intentions.

 

I'm glad you're actually giving us a chance. However, my advice (and the advice commonly given to new players) is to find a number of caches before committing to hiding one of your own. Hiding a cache is a long-term commitment and not something that can be done on a whim. As you've already seen, there are obstacles to getting a cache published that include proximity to PMO caches, proximity to hidden portions of Multi or Unknown caches, and many other things. If you take the time to find a number of caches, you'll learn more about how such caches work, become more familiar with the tools and processes, and will hopefully then be able to give back to the community in a better way and more easily be able to understand the process. I'll be honest, you will find that the process of hiding a cache is more complicated here than on the other geocaching websites, simply due to the number of caches listed here.

 

All that being said, sometimes we just can't hide a cache where we'd like. With the growing popularity of the game over recent years (due in large part to smartphones), there are a lot more caches out there and therefore fewer spots to hide a cache. Unfortunately, it sounds like your desired location may be just too saturated for any more caches. Part of the intention of the proximity guideline is to get cache hiders to seek out new locations. That is, rather than try to stuff another cache into an already full park, we should seek out another area with more free space and something else unique/interesting/cool to bring cachers to. Hopefully you'll be able to find somewhere like this in your area. I'm sure there's some special spot in your community that not many people know about and doesn't have a cache yet. Consider it a challenge to find that special spot and share it with the rest of us. :lol:

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Good grief! I have never seen such paranoia! Maybe the internet is not a good place for you to be.

 

Actually I have not had this problem anywhere else but here. This is the first forum I've ever been on where someone has tried to determine my location by searching activities I claim to have done last night. And at this point I'm glad I was paranoid.

 

Not at all. Someone, namely Mannville Possum Hunters, peer reviews caches on the site you claim to have found and hidden caches on last night, and he would have seen any new submissions. And by the way, Manny, I saw where you said "none of them are worth using". :ph34r:

 

I was going to explain the freemium concept to you, but I guess you know about it, and don't think this site is a good example of it. I don't know what to tell you there. I'd certainly never claim they invented it (and it is a 2000's term), but they were certainly an early adopter of the concept.

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If they are competing with Google, then why don't they use Google's business model? I use a LOT of google products, and I don't pay a dime to them directly. Guess who does? Advertisers, other businesses, manufacturers, the list goes on.

 

Google is used by billions of people around the world.

 

Geocaching is a niche activity.

 

While I'm willing to tolerate a bit of advertising when I use a search engine, I don't want my recreation to be invaded by ads. I'll either make do with the multitudes of features that ARE free, or pay up for the special features if I find them useful.

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Not at all. Someone, namely Mannville Possum Hunters, peer reviews caches on the site you claim to have found and hidden caches on last night, and he would have seen any new submissions. And by the way, Manny, I saw where you said "none of them are worth using". :ph34r:

 

Aww shucks! :anicute: I did say that did'nt I? No offence, I kinda forgot that you are an admin on one of those sites too. :laughing:

 

It's just a geocaching thing, I enjoy geocaching and Waymarking.

That is something that has not been brought up here in this thread, Waymarking and it's relation to Priemum Membership.

 

I know that both of us are Waymarkers, and I am an officer and manage a few categories there. Being a PM is a requirement for being an officer, voting in peer review, ect.

Edited by Keystone
FQT
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FYI, you may have noticed no hides in my account. We have our joint account for cache placements. I'm in southwestern Ontario. The city I'm in is quite cache dense. In 2014 we got a couple of new very keen cachers that filled in most of the empty spots available (around 100 new hides in my geocaching radius in 2014). It's getting harder to find a decent location to hide a cache.

 

Yeah, I figured you were using a different account for your hides, so I looked at where some of your finds were. Looks like there's lots of room somewhat to the north, though. ;)

 

Where the caribou and the polar bears roam. laugh.gif

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What I usually do is that I pull up the geocaching web site on my phone while I am hiding the cache and press submit cache for review, the map shows the red circles, regardless of PMO or regular.

 

This is a great tip, thank you for mentioning that. Any idea why the free intro app can't just do this for you? If I'm understanding right, the website map isn't revealing the location of the PMO caches, just the no deploy zones they cause. This would be a great solution for those using the free app. I don't know about you but my phone screen is too small and doesn't display the web site map very well. Would just be nice to have this in the app.

 

FWIW, you can't do this with the $10 app either.

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Greganon, in answer to your original question, for me, no it isn't worth it. It isn't a hardship to pay but that doesn't mean that I don't expect value from my money spent. I prefer to review the individual cache before I search it out and load them individually on to my GPS. So the PQ's and all that are pretty much worthless to me. The only thing that pushed me to get mine was the PMO caches in an area that I like to frequent. Most of those that I have found so far have been a pill bottle under a rock by a sign that happens to advertise the cache name. I have yet to find a cache large enough to know if the quality of swag differs though.

 

The business model is what it is. I don't have a problem with most of the premium features, and those who find them of value. The PMO caches are a bit of a rub on me though because they are being used as a tool to nudge more people into premium membership who otherwise might not consider it. Here we have a free app that anyone can use that isn't linked to a verified e-mail account. Through ignorance of those users caches are being mishandled and become higher maintenance than it should be. The way to escape that is to make them PMO. They have to make up for the lost revenue in trackable sales that the free app brought about somehow right? I have yet to see advertisement from an outside source on GC.com. Maybe it is a regional thing, but that makes me believe that they do well enough in the store and premium memberships that they really don't need that additional outside income. There are worse problems to have.

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At the moment (but this is maybe subject to change) I don't have any advantages/bonuses on geoacching.com page when having PM. Caches search and filtering options are totally lame, even with PM. The only bonus is that I use GSAK, and with PM it can quickly load multitudes on caches that I can filter, search and later load into my GPS. Without PM this loading is much slower and time-consuming.

I'm not sure if PM in current shape is really worth 30euro per year ... yes, there is difference in price, depending where you live.

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