And now?

[+Ibar]

So ... today I placed my 15th cache GC5J4Q5. As this cache is relatively close to a quiet neighborhood. I:

 

- placed a " no night cache" attribute

- mentioned in the description of the cache "a) Dit is GEEN nachtcache. Gelieve de rust in de buurt niet te verstoren" what in dutch means: "a) This is NOT a night cache. Please respect the peace in the neighborhood"

 

Well:

 

- The sun went down today in Belgium around 16:30

- I submitted the cache for review at 17:30

- The cache was published at 18:39

- By 19:33 the cache had already three founds.

 

I know, 7:30 PM isn't really "night" but anyway, I would never go for a "no-night cache" if it's dark, and I would feel suspicious seeing at night 3 or 4 cars parked at the other end of the street and people with flashlights wandering around. What do you think?

 

Btw, I am starting to understand how the FTFers "behave" in the area so just to play safe I placed the cache not closer than 50m from the nearest private property, but still.

 

Thx

[+J Grouchy]

So ... today I placed my 15th cache GC5J4Q5. As this cache is relatively close to a quiet neighborhood. I:

 

- placed a " no night cache" attribute

- mentioned in the description of the cache "a) Dit is GEEN nachtcache. Gelieve de rust in de buurt niet te verstoren" what in dutch means: "a) This is NOT a night cache. Please respect the peace in the neighborhood"

 

Well:

 

- The sun went down today in Belgium around 16:30

- I submitted the cache for review at 17:30

- The cache was published at 18:39

- By 19:33 the cache had already three founds.

 

I know, 7:30 PM isn't really "night" but anyway, I would never go for a "no-night cache" if it's dark, and I would feel suspicious seeing at night 3 or 4 cars parked at the other end of the street and people with flashlights wandering around. What do you think?

 

Btw, I am starting to understand how the FTFers "behave" in the area so just to play safe I placed the cache not closer than 50m from the nearest private property, but still.

 

Thx

 

How prominent is the warning? I know a lot of folks will just "skim" the cache page or not read it at all. My latest cache (published today) is in an area with some 30-40 foot tall cliffs and I made sure to prominently state at the very beginning that folks need to be cautious about searching for this cache.

If you must have the cache at that location, really as long at you rate it properly and give it appropriate attributes, the only other thing you can do is make it clear in the description.

[+NeverSummer]

Calling a cache a "Night Cache" usually means that it is a cache where you use clues or something like reflectors or UV light to find the final location. The attribute is meant for that kind of find, not for a "don't visit this at night"

[+Legochugglers]

I think you are asking a lot of cachers to interpret your requirements here. I wouldn't consider your instructions as prohibiting a cache being looked for in the dark but more about not looking for the cache in the middle of the night. Why is the cache placed in this quiet neighbourhood where visiting could be construed as suspicious which could easily be the case during the day/dusk/dawn?

[+NeverSummer]

I think you are asking a lot of cachers to interpret your requirements here. I wouldn't consider your instructions as prohibiting a cache being looked for in the dark but more about not looking for the cache in the middle of the night. Why is the cache placed in this quiet neighbourhood where visiting could be construed as suspicious which could easily be the case during the day/dusk/dawn?

And I think this is the crux of the issue. If this cache might cause issues if people are looking at certain times of day, you need to be VERY clear in the description that the cache should not be looked for during certain hours.

 

Now, that said, you really CAN'T stop people from looking when you've asked them not to. They take their own risk doing this. Now, is it frustrating as an owner to see others taking a risk that might compromise your cache hide? Yes; absolutely. This is where you have a choice to make: Is this cache a good placement knowing that some might not follow your request? If the placement is at risk because of the neighborhood, and the fact that "suspicious" people will be around looking for a cache at certain times, perhaps the hide is not a good idea. Time will tell. If cops are called, neighbors complain, or loggers mention that they were watched and/or approached while seeking, then it's time to archive the cache and realize the mistake of placing one where "muggles" and accessible times of day are an issue.

[+J Grouchy]

Calling a cache a "Night Cache" usually means that it is a cache where you use clues or something like reflectors or UV light to find the final location. The attribute is meant for that kind of find, not for a "don't visit this at night"

 

I think you misread that. The attribute is "not a night cache".

[+NeverSummer]

Calling a cache a "Night Cache" usually means that it is a cache where you use clues or something like reflectors or UV light to find the final location. The attribute is meant for that kind of find, not for a "don't visit this at night"

 

I think you misread that. The attribute is "not a night cache".

No, I read it plain and clear. See bolded. Stating "Not Night Cache" would simply mean that it isn't a cache where you use typical "Night Cache" methods to find the cache.

 

It's a matter of vernacular. In this case, the OP is confusing the language necessary for their description and attributes for the desired outcome.

[+Bear and Ragged]

Maybe the NOT available at all times would be better?

 

As has been said, the Night Cache is a specific type of cache, and adding Not a Night Cache doesn't stop cachers from looking at night...

[+dprovan]

Yes, you can expect people to miss anything in the description from time to time, and even if they don't miss it, they'll sometimes read "not at night" as a suggestion that they can ignore if they're careful not to disturb the neighbors. If that's a problem, you probably shouldn't have a cache there.

 

Furthermore, people going for FTFs tend to bend rules, so you can expect your advice to be ignored if the cache is published at night.

[+NeverSummer]

Furthermore, people going for FTFs tend to bend rules, so you can expect your advice to be ignored if the cache is published at night.

If this is your reaction to a new cache, you are more likely to "bend" the requests that cache owners put in the description:

 

 

[+J Grouchy]

Calling a cache a "Night Cache" usually means that it is a cache where you use clues or something like reflectors or UV light to find the final location. The attribute is meant for that kind of find, not for a "don't visit this at night"

 

I think you misread that. The attribute is "not a night cache".

No, I read it plain and clear. See bolded. Stating "Not Night Cache" would simply mean that it isn't a cache where you use typical "Night Cache" methods to find the cache.

 

It's a matter of vernacular. In this case, the OP is confusing the language necessary for their description and attributes for the desired outcome.

 

Ah...gotcha. Though I suppose most folks (myself included) read "not a night cache" to mean "don't look for this at night".

 

Perhaps this would be better, though:

[+NeverSummer]

Calling a cache a "Night Cache" usually means that it is a cache where you use clues or something like reflectors or UV light to find the final location. The attribute is meant for that kind of find, not for a "don't visit this at night"

 

I think you misread that. The attribute is "not a night cache".

No, I read it plain and clear. See bolded. Stating "Not Night Cache" would simply mean that it isn't a cache where you use typical "Night Cache" methods to find the cache.

 

It's a matter of vernacular. In this case, the OP is confusing the language necessary for their description and attributes for the desired outcome.

 

Ah...gotcha. Though I suppose most folks (myself included) read "not a night cache" to mean "don't look for this at night".

 

Perhaps this would be better, though:

Right. There is "Night Cache" and "night cache". In the case of the OP, we're talking "Not a Night Cache" and "not a cache to be looked for at night". The second attribute is more appropriate, as "Night Cache" is what is defined by Groundspeak (and everyone I happen to know) as "Night and UV Caches".

 

The "Not a Night Cache" attribute is for Night Caches.

 

The "Not a cache for night" attribute is for caches where you should not look after dark.

Edited December 22, 2014 by NeverSummer

[+Legochugglers]

I reiterate, how can this possibly be policed. How dark does it have to be before it is designated after dark, does this change in different seasons? Is 5am acceptable if the sun is just coming up? A poor requirement in my opinion.

[+coachstahly]

It can't be policed except by those that read the cache page and honor the requests of the CO. As has already been mentioned, not every one reads all the way through a description before heading out to cache, particularly on a FTF run. Personally, I would have requested in my reviewer note that the reviewer hold off on publication until morning, just to be safe. My reviewers are quite helpful in that regard, but I have no idea if that's an accepted practice on the other side of the pond.

[Rock Chalk]

It's my experience that no matter how many attributes you list or how specific you are with your description, some folks don't read the whole listing before heading out.

 

After reading your listing, the only suggestion I can offer is to specify the hours when you feel it's OK to search for the cache. I do that with my hides that are located in parks (I simply list the park hours). I've also seen people say "search during daylight hours only" or something to that effect.

[+dprovan]

Furthermore, people going for FTFs tend to bend rules, so you can expect your advice to be ignored if the cache is published at night.

If this is your reaction to a new cache, you are more likely to "bend" the requests that cache owners put in the description:

It's not how I react to a new cache, so don't bother complaining to me. It's just a fact.

 

I reiterate, how can this possibly be policed. How dark does it have to be before it is designated after dark, does this change in different seasons? Is 5am acceptable if the sun is just coming up? A poor requirement in my opinion.

More to the point, what's to be policed? When something's marked a night cache, that doesn't prevent me from looking for it during the day, it's just the CO's indication that the cache is designed to be sought at night. So there's nothing to police if the cache says "not at night" because it doesn't forbid looking for it at night, it merely recommends against it.

 

As I said, if looking for it at night is such a serious problem that there can't be the occasional exception, then it's probably not a good place to put a cache.

 

It's my experience that no matter how many attributes you list or how specific you are with your description, some folks don't read the whole listing before heading out.

More often than not, I don't look at the cache listing at all until I'm in the field, and I don't get attributes at all in the field.

[+NeverSummer]

Furthermore, people going for FTFs tend to bend rules, so you can expect your advice to be ignored if the cache is published at night.

If this is your reaction to a new cache, you are more likely to "bend" the requests that cache owners put in the description:

It's not how I react to a new cache, so don't bother complaining to me. It's just a fact.

Sorry if you thought that was directed toward you. It wasn't; I was just making a funny...

[+Mudfrog]

The "Not a Night Cache" attribute is for Night Caches.

 

Huh?

[+jellis]

If you are worried only about FTF hounds and not the rest of the cachers who will probably only go after during the day, this is what I do if I don't want FTF hounds sneaking in the dark for my new caches and you are unsure when it will go publish. I post on the reviewer's note befor submitting it to state what time NOT to publish it. Like I will say don't publish before 7am due to park curfews or in a residential neighborhood (which I don't like to do).

[+niraD]

On one of my caches that is available only during daylight hours, I use both the "not recommended at night" and "not 24-7" attributes:

 

And I've asked the volunteer reviewer to publish a cache during the day when it was placed in an area with restricted hours.

Edited December 23, 2014 by niraD

[+jellis]

On one of my caches that is available only during daylight hours, I use both the "not recommended at night" and "not 24-7" attributes:

 

And I've asked the volunteer reviewer to publish a cache during the day when it was placed in an area with restricted hours.

Now days with smartphones, FTF hounds just go for it. Attributes are not in view like on a cache page so they are not going to be bothered with looking for the attributes until they are at the site and wonder why they can't find it.

[+TopShelfRob]

And some people will see: "DO NOT SEARCH FOR AT NIGHT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES" and interpret that to mean: "GOOD, I CAN SEARCH FOR IT AT NIGHT AND HAVE IT TO MYSELF BECAUSE NO ONE ELSE WILL BE THERE SEARCHING FOR IT THEN"

[Alvater]

I might intepret 'not a night cache' as a) may be not easy to find in the dark access to the cache location may be restricted during night hours or c) in this case muggles may get suspicious. In case c) I would think that visiting the place when most people are preparing for bed or sleeping solid should be avoided because it could look dodgy but maybe not always when it is literally dark. I live in a country there the light time of the day lasts only few hours now, when they are at their shortests and in the longest days in the summer it is light around the clock. Would make pretty interesting caching if some caches should be retrieved only in daylight in the winter and your work is during the daytime.

 

Ie. I could be walking my dog at 7 pm when it is dark. No one would see me suspicious or a threat. If the cache is an easy find even in the dark I guess I could log it without raising attention. But say I browse through various items at ground zero at 0.30 am without any obvious and safe explanations the situation is different.

[+Ibar]

Hey,

 

Thanks for your comments

 

As this thread I started already brought some interesting discussions, please let me clarify my point:

 

- As you can see in Google Earth / Street View (the coords are accurate), the cache is just outside that "quiet neighborhood" next to a small and relatively busy road at maybe 30-35 meters from the closest house. So, I don't expect anybody to call the cops because suddenly a car stopped further down the road and a guy with a flashlight seems to be searching for his wallet.

 

I just thought it would be more appropriate to search that cache during the day, in order to be 100% sure that no neighbors would be annoyed/suspicious. Btw, Belgium is a very densely populated country so we do have a LOT of caches near houses and in the description you can often find the disclaimer "not to cache at night in order not to disturb the neighborhood" Still, between 18:30 (when it was as dark as at 3 AM) and 20:30, 5 persons had signed the log

 

My concern isn't that much about the cache but about the FTFers. As somebody mentioned earlier in the thread, some of them just get the e-mail that a new cache is around, jump in the car and try to be the first. I'm quite sure that reading the attributes and/or the description is something for later, and yes it is not the end of the world if someone goes for a cache, like in this case, on the early evening, dark or not dark, so this particular case wasn't really dramatic, I'm just discussing the principle.

 

Btw, thanks for the hint, I already added the "not recommended at night" attribute.

 

Nevertheless, it's too late, after the FTF rush I would be surprised if anybody adventures in the dark to find a simple cache.

 

Last night I was thinking about how to approach my next cache, and got the same idea as somebody else mentioned in this thread, namely to mention in the reviewer note that the cache should be published early in the morning. Taking into account the density of FTFers we have in the area, I'm sure that before noon the "Podium" will be filled

 

Regards

[+NYPaddleCacher]

It's my experience that no matter how many attributes you list or how specific you are with your description, some folks don't read the whole listing before heading out.

 

After reading your listing, the only suggestion I can offer is to specify the hours when you feel it's OK to search for the cache. I do that with my hides that are located in parks (I simply list the park hours). I've also seen people say "search during daylight hours only" or something to that effect.

 

I'd go a step further and suggest that even if the whole listing is read, some folks are going to ignore any CO requests if there is a FTF up for grabs. Even if the cache was named, "Please do not search for this cache at night", there are going to be some that are going to do it anyway if there is an opportunity to get a FTF. The first three logs on that cache start with FTF, STF, and TTF so there is clearly a FTF hound race in the area and the cache is just another example of how the FTF race has the potential to hurt the game.

 

 

[+NYPaddleCacher]

:

Taking into account the density of FTFers we have in the area, I'm sure that before noon the "Podium" will be filled

 

 

Interesting statement. My impression of the FTF game was that it was "who claims FTF" and everyone else. I didn't realize that in some areas that

a silver and bronze medal are being coveted as well and people claimed them in their logs and have effectively turned the game into a competition.

 

 

[+NeverSummer]

The "Not a Night Cache" attribute is for Night Caches.

 

Huh?

Right?

 

It is, unfortunately, one of those negative attributes that doesn't make any sense. And, in the case of the OP, confused the situation.

 

The "Night Cache" attribute is for UV/flashlight "Night Caches". You can select "Not a Night Cache", but this does not mean "do not hunt at night" or "not available 24 hours a day, 7 days a week"; the other attributes are the correct ones to use in conjunction with a clear description on the cache page about times the cache is available and/or should be searched for.

[+NeverSummer]

It's my experience that no matter how many attributes you list or how specific you are with your description, some folks don't read the whole listing before heading out.

 

After reading your listing, the only suggestion I can offer is to specify the hours when you feel it's OK to search for the cache. I do that with my hides that are located in parks (I simply list the park hours). I've also seen people say "search during daylight hours only" or something to that effect.

 

I'd go a step further and suggest that even if the whole listing is read, some folks are going to ignore any CO requests if there is a FTF up for grabs. Even if the cache was named, "Please do not search for this cache at night", there are going to be some that are going to do it anyway if there is an opportunity to get a FTF. The first three logs on that cache start with FTF, STF, and TTF so there is clearly a FTF hound race in the area and the cache is just another example of how the FTF race has the potential to hurt the game.

And then...there's the cache owner who would delete a FTF log that was posted when they requested the cache not be looked for ("Don't look for this at night...", and the FTF racers go anyway). All of a sudden we have a new discussion about a name on the logbook is a "Found it" on geocaching.com, people will argue that the find should stand while others claim it should be the owner's right to delete a log... Ugh.

 

Yeah, we can't stop people from not listening to our requests. We also can't stop people from breaking ordinances or laws to find a cache. Groundspeak, Lackeys, Reviewers, cache owners, and cache seekers are not in the business of law enforcement (save for some of us that might be for a profession...), so really it is left up to those risk-takers to do so. Worrying too much about when and how someone seeks a cache might go against your better judgement or ethical paradigm, but that's as far as you can take it. People will go for a find when they shouldn't (park closed, etc), and cache owners can only request that people do the "right" thing and follow the laws, ordinances, and personal requests we state on a cache page. Beyond that, just let the finds be. It's not worth the worry...unless a neighbor calls the cops about a late-night weirdo looking in the bushes near my house at midnight. That's when you archive the cache for the better judgement where the risks aren't worth the benefits of having a cache there.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

It's my experience that no matter how many attributes you list or how specific you are with your description, some folks don't read the whole listing before heading out.

 

After reading your listing, the only suggestion I can offer is to specify the hours when you feel it's OK to search for the cache. I do that with my hides that are located in parks (I simply list the park hours). I've also seen people say "search during daylight hours only" or something to that effect.

 

I'd go a step further and suggest that even if the whole listing is read, some folks are going to ignore any CO requests if there is a FTF up for grabs. Even if the cache was named, "Please do not search for this cache at night", there are going to be some that are going to do it anyway if there is an opportunity to get a FTF. The first three logs on that cache start with FTF, STF, and TTF so there is clearly a FTF hound race in the area and the cache is just another example of how the FTF race has the potential to hurt the game.

And then...there's the cache owner who would delete a FTF log that was posted when they requested the cache not be looked for ("Don't look for this at night...", and the FTF racers go anyway). All of a sudden we have a new discussion about a name on the logbook is a "Found it" on geocaching.com, people will argue that the find should stand while others claim it should be the owner's right to delete a log... Ugh.

 

Yeah, we can't stop people from not listening to our requests. We also can't stop people from breaking ordinances or laws to find a cache. Groundspeak, Lackeys, Reviewers, cache owners, and cache seekers are not in the business of law enforcement (save for some of us that might be for a profession...), so really it is left up to those risk-takers to do so. Worrying too much about when and how someone seeks a cache might go against your better judgement or ethical paradigm, but that's as far as you can take it. People will go for a find when they shouldn't (park closed, etc), and cache owners can only request that people do the "right" thing and follow the laws, ordinances, and personal requests we state on a cache page. Beyond that, just let the finds be. It's not worth the worry...unless a neighbor calls the cops about a late-night weirdo looking in the bushes near my house at midnight. That's when you archive the cache for the better judgement where the risks aren't worth the benefits of having a cache there.

 

The other option is to archive the cache *before* there is a problem and stop hiding new caches for those that think breaking the law and annoying non-geocaching home owners is an acceptable way to play the game.

 

It is because of that kind of behavior (and other behaviors) that I haven't hidden a cache in several years and have archived many that I have hidden.

 

 

[+Mudfrog]

The "Not a Night Cache" attribute is for Night Caches.

 

Huh?

Right?

 

It is, unfortunately, one of those negative attributes that doesn't make any sense. And, in the case of the OP, confused the situation.

 

The "Night Cache" attribute is for UV/flashlight "Night Caches". You can select "Not a Night Cache", but this does not mean "do not hunt at night" or "not available 24 hours a day, 7 days a week"; the other attributes are the correct ones to use in conjunction with a clear description on the cache page about times the cache is available and/or should be searched for.

 

I understand what you're saying. Even though i know this already, i don't put it past COs to use it as a warning for finders not to go at night. The first thought that comes to my mind when i notice the attribute is that the CO doesn't want finders to go for this cache at night. I suspect many who see it interpret it to mean the same.

 

Like others have said, there is no foolproof way to keep cachers from breaking rules, especially when a FTF competition is in the mix. The "not 24/7" and "not recommended at night" attributes are good to use but they are probably overlooked more times than not. Putting a warning on the cache page, preferably near the beginning of the description, is probably the best thing you can do to let finders know.

[+dprovan]

Nevertheless, it's too late, after the FTF rush I would be surprised if anybody adventures in the dark to find a simple cache.

FTF hunters are just one case of why someone might not look at the description yet end up there at night.

 

Anyway, it sounds even more like you were just making a suggestion on how to be maximally friendly to the neighbors, so I'm even less sure why you were so bothered by the FTFers. Is there some reason to think the neighbors noticed them?

 

Anyway, it sounds like the main lesson is not to publish the cache at night if you don't think people should look for it at night.

[Andronicus]

Knowing that FTF hounds will do anything to get FTF, I have requested my reviewer to publish a cache at a certain time to avoid these sorts of issues. Mine was alot of construction in the area, so I requested the reviewer to publish it after typical work hours (after 1800h). He was more than happy to accomidate, and I didn't have any problems.

[+NeverSummer]

 

The other option is to archive the cache *before* there is a problem and stop hiding new caches for those that think breaking the law and annoying non-geocaching home owners is an acceptable way to play the game.

 

That's kinda what I'm getting at, without being so brazen as to say it straight out.

[+hukilaulau]

The "Not a Night Cache" attribute is for Night Caches.

 

Huh?

I love this. Reminds me of instructions on my first computer:

 

"To shut down computer, press START"

 

Anyways... A simple rule of cache placement: Don't expect people to follow your instructions or suggestions.

If you have to tell people not to come at a certain time, it's probably a questionable hide.

[4wheelin_fool]

 

The other option is to archive the cache *before* there is a problem and stop hiding new caches for those that think breaking the law and annoying non-geocaching home owners is an acceptable way to play the game.

 

That's kinda what I'm getting at, without being so brazen as to say it straight out.

 

The risk of having visitors at the wrong hours is mostly during the FTF period. One interesting solution could be to intentionally publish it with coords 300 feet off and with no hint. Then when morning comes, correct them. Whoops!

[+NeverSummer]

 

The other option is to archive the cache *before* there is a problem and stop hiding new caches for those that think breaking the law and annoying non-geocaching home owners is an acceptable way to play the game.

 

That's kinda what I'm getting at, without being so brazen as to say it straight out.

 

The risk of having visitors at the wrong hours is mostly during the FTF period. One interesting solution could be to intentionally publish it with coords 300 feet off and with no hint. Then when morning comes, correct them. Whoops!

:laughing: :laughing:

[+niraD]

The risk of having visitors at the wrong hours is mostly during the FTF period. One interesting solution could be to intentionally publish it with coords 300 feet off and with no hint. Then when morning comes, correct them. Whoops!

Another approach is to make it a really challenging puzzle. That way, the FTF is likely to be a few days after the listing is published.

[cezanne]

:

Taking into account the density of FTFers we have in the area, I'm sure that before noon the "Podium" will be filled

 

 

Interesting statement. My impression of the FTF game was that it was "who claims FTF" and everyone else. I didn't realize that in some areas that

a silver and bronze medal are being coveted as well and people claimed them in their logs and have effectively turned the game into a competition.

 

Unfortunately, this is something quite common in many European countries. I have seen it in many different regions and areas in various countries.

[+Ibar]

 

The other option is to archive the cache *before* there is a problem and stop hiding new caches for those that think breaking the law and annoying non-geocaching home owners is an acceptable way to play the game.

 

That's kinda what I'm getting at, without being so brazen as to say it straight out.

 

The risk of having visitors at the wrong hours is mostly during the FTF period. One interesting solution could be to intentionally publish it with coords 300 feet off and with no hint. Then when morning comes, correct them. Whoops!

 

I did it once but not on purpose. By mistake I published the cache around 200m from where it was supposed to be. Still, on that same night there was an FTF (he didn't seem too happy, though). We have quite die hard FTFers in this part of the world

[4wheelin_fool]

 

The other option is to archive the cache *before* there is a problem and stop hiding new caches for those that think breaking the law and annoying non-geocaching home owners is an acceptable way to play the game.

 

That's kinda what I'm getting at, without being so brazen as to say it straight out.

 

The risk of having visitors at the wrong hours is mostly during the FTF period. One interesting solution could be to intentionally publish it with coords 300 feet off and with no hint. Then when morning comes, correct them. Whoops!

 

I did it once but not on purpose. By mistake I published the cache around 200m from where it was supposed to be. Still, on that same night there was an FTF (he didn't seem too happy, though). We have quite die hard FTFers in this part of the world

Yeah they figured out which digit was wrong. You have to make multiple digits off, and leave no hint. Post the initial coords for the dumpster in the parking lot. The cops will think they are large raccoons.