4wheelin_fool Posted December 18, 2014 Share Posted December 18, 2014 Found a cache hidden on a RR track running through a residential neighborhood. It hasn't been used in years, and there isn't any chance it will be used soon, as only 80% of the track is there. We parked in front of someone's house and walked in. I assumed the property had been transferred to the township and would be eventually used for a rails to trails walking path. On the way out two police officers greeted us and asked what we were doing, and we told them. They said it was private and not to go back there. Apparently one of the neighbors had called them. It's odd, as there are signs prohibiting dumping, but the area was full of yard debris from nearby residents. I thought that the cop was full of BS, until we checked and discovered the RR still owned it. Then we found out that there are plenty of caches on it. No safety concern at all, but how do these things happen? I hide a cache and get grilled to explaining every detail. Is it trespassing if it's abandoned? Quote Link to comment
+SwineFlew Posted December 18, 2014 Share Posted December 18, 2014 Its in the gray line. It can go both ways. Quote Link to comment
+J Grouchy Posted December 18, 2014 Share Posted December 18, 2014 Portions of the Atlanta Beltline system, which is currently under development, are recently active rail lines and still owned by the RR companies like CSX. Folks are always out walking the lines with no problems. Likely because they are part of the established planned trail system...which is where the "gray area" swineflew talks about comes in. Quote Link to comment
4wheelin_fool Posted December 18, 2014 Author Share Posted December 18, 2014 (edited) So do the nearby residents have just cause to alert the police to someone walking on someone else's property? A normal response would have them asking what were doing at first, and then take it from there. Instead they were all milling about on their front lawn, pretending to be doing something. Then when we looked at them, they turned away and went inside quickly while we spoke to the police. Edited December 18, 2014 by 4wheelin_fool Quote Link to comment
+pppingme Posted December 18, 2014 Share Posted December 18, 2014 Sounds like the real problem is that you went between the neighbors houses. Did the cops specifically mention the RR? You probably just need to find a way to get on the trail that doesn't go between houses. I'd call the cops on ya too. Most "rails to trails" projects are still owned by the RR's, and leased (typically for nothing) by the city, county, whatever, and developed. In most cases, the RR has the right to reclaim it, or it automatically falls back if the city chooses not to maintain the R2T project anymore. Quote Link to comment
+J Grouchy Posted December 18, 2014 Share Posted December 18, 2014 So do the nearby residents have just cause to alert the police to someone walking on someone else's property? Sure. You have just cause to alert police if you see someone acting suspicious in the public right-of-way too. How suspicious it appears to others likely depends on the area it's in and the adjacent properties. If it cuts next to residential areas, it likely gets more notice than if it just ran through a quiet industrial area. Quote Link to comment
4wheelin_fool Posted December 18, 2014 Author Share Posted December 18, 2014 (edited) Sounds like the real problem is that you went between the neighbors houses. Did the cops specifically mention the RR? You probably just need to find a way to get on the trail that doesn't go between houses. I'd call the cops on ya too. Most "rails to trails" projects are still owned by the RR's, and leased (typically for nothing) by the city, county, whatever, and developed. In most cases, the RR has the right to reclaim it, or it automatically falls back if the city chooses not to maintain the R2T project anymore. It runs directly between their houses and dead ends 100 feet past their backyard, we stayed on it the entire time. There is no pending rails to trails project, only abandoned tracks. Edited December 18, 2014 by 4wheelin_fool Quote Link to comment
4wheelin_fool Posted December 18, 2014 Author Share Posted December 18, 2014 So do the nearby residents have just cause to alert the police to someone walking on someone else's property? Sure. You have just cause to alert police if you see someone acting suspicious in the public right-of-way too. How suspicious it appears to others likely depends on the area it's in and the adjacent properties. If it cuts next to residential areas, it likely gets more notice than if it just ran through a quiet industrial area. Someone's simple presence shouldn't be considered suspicious. Perhaps if I was running with a pair of bolt cutters there would be cause. Quote Link to comment
+Viajero Perdido Posted December 18, 2014 Share Posted December 18, 2014 I like how the neighbors deflected attention from their illegal dumping of yard waste... Quote Link to comment
+Manville Possum Posted December 18, 2014 Share Posted December 18, 2014 I'm quite sure it would be considered a crime here in Virginia to be on RR property, or at least you would need written permission to place a geocache on their property. Seems it varies by State. http://www.atdlines.com/pdf/cross-ch9.pdf Quote Link to comment
+BCandMsKitty Posted December 18, 2014 Share Posted December 18, 2014 The RRs (at least here in Canada, and I assume it will be the same in the states) keep people off even if the tracks are gone, unless they have signed an agreement with a local Trails Organization. Once that happens, the trails org. assumes liability, and will have appropriate insurance. Until then, the RR company has the liability, and so they will many times have no trespassing signs at the access points, just to let them off the hook if someone goes on the right of way, and gets hurt there. Even without the no trespassing signs, it will still be private property. Quote Link to comment
+NYPaddleCacher Posted December 18, 2014 Share Posted December 18, 2014 So do the nearby residents have just cause to alert the police to someone walking on someone else's property? Sure. You have just cause to alert police if you see someone acting suspicious in the public right-of-way too. How suspicious it appears to others likely depends on the area it's in and the adjacent properties. If it cuts next to residential areas, it likely gets more notice than if it just ran through a quiet industrial area. Someone's simple presence shouldn't be considered suspicious. Perhaps if I was running with a pair of bolt cutters there would be cause. If someone was wandering around in my backyard I think both of my neighbors would call the police even if they weren't "acting suspicious". I'm not trying to defend the home owners here but there could be a history of other people using the area for illegal purposes which might make just being in the area appear suspicious. I assume that the home owners don't know about the caches so they might wonder what possible reason someone might have for being there. Quote Link to comment
+Panther&Pine Posted December 18, 2014 Share Posted December 18, 2014 There are also rail easements that never had rail placed but someone still owns the easement. Make sure you politely let the cache owner and other cachers in your area know what happened. Quote Link to comment
+Sharks-N-Beans Posted December 18, 2014 Share Posted December 18, 2014 1)Residents know it is RR property. 2)Residents do not like the strangers who have been caching so close to their houses. 3)Residents call cops. Done Quote Link to comment
+Harry Dolphin Posted December 18, 2014 Share Posted December 18, 2014 Well, yes. It's public property, but it's MY backyard! Reminds me of the time that a section of canal and towpath were preserved in a development. They were given variances to allow the preservation. "What?!?! You want to allow people to walk there@!? That's our backyard!" But Geocaching tries to please the neighbors, even if it is public property, and the neighbors are dumping their yard waste there. (Don't ask how many times I've seen that!) Quote Link to comment
Mr.Yuck Posted December 19, 2014 Share Posted December 19, 2014 Sounds like the real problem is that you went between the neighbors houses. Did the cops specifically mention the RR? You probably just need to find a way to get on the trail that doesn't go between houses. I'd call the cops on ya too. Most "rails to trails" projects are still owned by the RR's, and leased (typically for nothing) by the city, county, whatever, and developed. In most cases, the RR has the right to reclaim it, or it automatically falls back if the city chooses not to maintain the R2T project anymore. It runs directly between their houses and dead ends 100 feet past their backyard, we stayed on it the entire time. There is no pending rails to trails project, only abandoned tracks. I have seen abandoned railroads with no pending rails to trails projects with caches on them. Even ones with the tracks removed. I can tell you on one of them, on which several caches were published, that I queried the local GIS website, and it still showed as railroad property, although we don't know how often they update that stuff. I suppose it all falls back on the "assume permission" policy, not unlike an LPC at Wal-Mart. In your particular case, do you think "strangers" parking in the neighborhood, and walking on the old rail line raised suspiciousness? I guess I can see that. Quote Link to comment
+SwineFlew Posted December 19, 2014 Share Posted December 19, 2014 Sounds like the real problem is that you went between the neighbors houses. Did the cops specifically mention the RR? You probably just need to find a way to get on the trail that doesn't go between houses. I'd call the cops on ya too. Most "rails to trails" projects are still owned by the RR's, and leased (typically for nothing) by the city, county, whatever, and developed. In most cases, the RR has the right to reclaim it, or it automatically falls back if the city chooses not to maintain the R2T project anymore. It runs directly between their houses and dead ends 100 feet past their backyard, we stayed on it the entire time. There is no pending rails to trails project, only abandoned tracks. I have seen abandoned railroads with no pending rails to trails projects with caches on them. Even ones with the tracks removed. I can tell you on one of them, on which several caches were published, that I queried the local GIS website, and it still showed as railroad property, although we don't know how often they update that stuff. I suppose it all falls back on the "assume permission" policy, not unlike an LPC at Wal-Mart. In your particular case, do you think "strangers" parking in the neighborhood, and walking on the old rail line raised suspiciousness? I guess I can see that. Thats huge concern of mine when I am out geocaching. One time I was doing a earthcache and I have to park in a neighborhood to walk to the earthcache and I will say this... the neighbors knew I was there! Yea... I have the right to park there, but still... it makes the neighbors jumpy. Quote Link to comment
+BikeBill Posted December 19, 2014 Share Posted December 19, 2014 (edited) I'm familiar with the cache the CO is referring to, as I've found it. Actually, there is not really a cache there, but a clue to another stage. It's about 100 feet back from the street and 4WF is correct in that you have to walk over yard waste that the neighbors have dumped on the tracks. I didn't have any trouble when I was there. This SEPTA RR (R8, Newtown-Fox Chase line in the Philly suburbs) hasn't been active since the '80's and there has been talk of turning it to a Rails to Trails, but mostly it's just overgrown and the tracks are paved over where they intersect roads. I think that this was a case of over-concerned neighbors but I also agree that using the RR right-of-way for caches is a gray area. That being said, I can see nothing wrong with using the RR for caches. I did a quick count and found at least 16 caches on this RR line. I also talked to the reviewer and he isn't aware of any policy and allows caches on abandoned lines. But I agree with 4WF that getting accosted by the local police is an uncomfortable experience. 4WF: Did the LEO's know what Geocaching is? Did the neighbors seem to think the RR was their property? Edited December 19, 2014 by BikeBill Quote Link to comment
+MountainWoods Posted December 19, 2014 Share Posted December 19, 2014 As a railfan, I've learned something about railroads. One popular misconception is that railroad tracks, or the right of way along them, are fair game for hiking or doing whatever one pleases. However, a railroad ROW is as much private corporate property as any other kind of corporation's campus. It's just stretched out in a very long line. Let's say you have a General Mills plant (or General Electric or whatever) a block from your home. I'm not talking about a business that you'd expect folks to be wondering around on, such as a department store or gas station, but a private business. (Entrance gate, badges, etc.) What would you think about going over there and just wandering around on their property? Probably not a good idea. And yet, walking along or on railroad tracks is the exact same thing -- wandering around on private corporate property. The only areas of the ROW that have been granted for the public to be on, for a very limited time, is at public crossings, such as highway crossings or sidewalks that cross the tracks. Yes, RR corporations can and do prosecute for trespassing on their property. They have the law on their side and they usually win. One might get by trespassing on, what looks like, an abandoned RR ROW, but it is still illegal, and a cop can getcha for it. As far as I've understood from reading the trains magazines (since 1984), this applies to all countries, not just the US where I am located. The linear nature of RR property fools folks into thinking that they are somehow different from other corporation campuses. In layout, yes; in trespassing, no. Quote Link to comment
Mr.Yuck Posted December 19, 2014 Share Posted December 19, 2014 Sounds like the real problem is that you went between the neighbors houses. Did the cops specifically mention the RR? You probably just need to find a way to get on the trail that doesn't go between houses. I'd call the cops on ya too. Most "rails to trails" projects are still owned by the RR's, and leased (typically for nothing) by the city, county, whatever, and developed. In most cases, the RR has the right to reclaim it, or it automatically falls back if the city chooses not to maintain the R2T project anymore. It runs directly between their houses and dead ends 100 feet past their backyard, we stayed on it the entire time. There is no pending rails to trails project, only abandoned tracks. I have seen abandoned railroads with no pending rails to trails projects with caches on them. Even ones with the tracks removed. I can tell you on one of them, on which several caches were published, that I queried the local GIS website, and it still showed as railroad property, although we don't know how often they update that stuff. I suppose it all falls back on the "assume permission" policy, not unlike an LPC at Wal-Mart. In your particular case, do you think "strangers" parking in the neighborhood, and walking on the old rail line raised suspiciousness? I guess I can see that. Thats huge concern of mine when I am out geocaching. One time I was doing a earthcache and I have to park in a neighborhood to walk to the earthcache and I will say this... the neighbors knew I was there! Yea... I have the right to park there, but still... it makes the neighbors jumpy. Happens to me all the time. I'm 6', 200 lbs with a perpetual military brush cut, and have been told for years I'm generally mean looking. You'll see when we finally meet in person at GW this year. Quote Link to comment
+nikcap Posted December 19, 2014 Share Posted December 19, 2014 I researched this a few years ago, hopefully, I'm recalling this information accurately. There is a big difference between Out of Service and Abandoned. Most of the rail lines in NJ where the tracks or other railroad artifacts are still present are Out of Service. These are still owned by the railroad and are private property. Abandoned ROW are parcels where the owning RR has given up the rights to the property and usually, the property reverts back to the original property owner, if it was obtained through eminent domain, otherwise, a governing agency can take control of it. In the case where the ROW is truly abandoned, it is the responsibility of the abandoning RR to remove track and ties and other artifacts. Of course, if that RR in question is going bankrupt, you can see how this turns into an ugly situation, usually, with the local or state government footing the bill to remove the track and cleaning up any environmental waste. I love caches placed along all RR ROWs. They are a lot of fun. Quote Link to comment
4wheelin_fool Posted December 19, 2014 Author Share Posted December 19, 2014 (edited) I'm familiar with the cache the CO is referring to, as I've found it. Actually, there is not really a cache there, but a clue to another stage. It's about 100 feet back from the street and 4WF is correct in that you have to walk over yard waste that the neighbors have dumped on the tracks. I didn't have any trouble when I was there. This SEPTA RR (R8, Newtown-Fox Chase line in the Philly suburbs) hasn't been active since the '80's and there has been talk of turning it to a Rails to Trails, but mostly it's just overgrown and the tracks are paved over where they intersect roads. I think that this was a case of over-concerned neighbors but I also agree that using the RR right-of-way for caches is a gray area. That being said, I can see nothing wrong with using the RR for caches. I did a quick count and found at least 16 caches on this RR line. I also talked to the reviewer and he isn't aware of any policy and allows caches on abandoned lines. But I agree with 4WF that getting accosted by the local police is an uncomfortable experience. 4WF: Did the LEO's know what Geocaching is? Did the neighbors seem to think the RR was their property? After the neighbors called the police, they were waiting outside to talk with them, but immediately went back inside when the police showed up, as we arrived back at the car at the same time that they arrived, so we made contact first. Although there was a both a police car and SUV, we only spoke to one cop. When we told him geocaching, he neither acknowledged or denied knowing what it was, only saying that it was private and to stay out. I mentioned the railway access corridor, and he said he was pretty certain that it was still private, so we said ok and left. I don't know what legal basis they would have to keep people out, as the railway would be the ones to complain. With all of the yard debris piled there, oddly I think that the neighbors would be under more scrutiny. Initially I thought to file a complaint and have the police investigate further to determine if such calls were unfounded or harassment, but since the township does not own it yet, I don't think that would be the best approach. Edited December 19, 2014 by 4wheelin_fool Quote Link to comment
+NYPaddleCacher Posted December 19, 2014 Share Posted December 19, 2014 As a railfan, I've learned something about railroads. One popular misconception is that railroad tracks, or the right of way along them, are fair game for hiking or doing whatever one pleases. However, a railroad ROW is as much private corporate property as any other kind of corporation's campus. It's just stretched out in a very long line. Let's say you have a General Mills plant (or General Electric or whatever) a block from your home. I'm not talking about a business that you'd expect folks to be wondering around on, such as a department store or gas station, but a private business. (Entrance gate, badges, etc.) What would you think about going over there and just wandering around on their property? Probably not a good idea. And yet, walking along or on railroad tracks is the exact same thing -- wandering around on private corporate property. The only areas of the ROW that have been granted for the public to be on, for a very limited time, is at public crossings, such as highway crossings or sidewalks that cross the tracks. Yes, RR corporations can and do prosecute for trespassing on their property. They have the law on their side and they usually win. One might get by trespassing on, what looks like, an abandoned RR ROW, but it is still illegal, and a cop can getcha for it. As far as I've understood from reading the trains magazines (since 1984), this applies to all countries, not just the US where I am located. The linear nature of RR property fools folks into thinking that they are somehow different from other corporation campuses. In layout, yes; in trespassing, no. This is some really good information but I still wonder if this is less about the property being owned by the RR and more about the state of the property (abandoned) and how some people will take advantages of property that appears to be abandoned to engage in nefarious activities (.e.g. drug use/sales). Nearby residents, unaware of the game we play, are just going to assume that someone wandering around the abandoned property are up to no good and going to call the cops. There have been other caches where, right or wrong, nearby homeowners just would rather not see strangers wandering around near their property. Even though the guidelines might not prohibit cache placements in those areas, the caches are probably best archived to prevent the kind of police encounter that 4WF experienced. Even if the homeowner doesn't call in the authorities, an face to face encounter with irate and/or irrational home owners isn't the kind of experience I'd like to have when I'm out geocaching. Quote Link to comment
4wheelin_fool Posted December 19, 2014 Author Share Posted December 19, 2014 (edited) As I see it, there are a few options here. Go down to the station house and have the matter investigated. Find out who has legal access to the property, and if the residents have the legal basis to use the police to chase people out. If the police are being used in an unlawful manner as a tool of harassment, then a complaint should be filed. Do nothing, but warn geocachers about the situation. Advise them that they have as much right as the neighbors to be there, and as long as they are not going in at night they should be fine. Since they probably could not be charged with trespassing, they should not be concerned about it. Conduct a silent campaign of discrediting the complainants. Find out what brand of locks they use and obtain a bump key. Enter their household without leaving a trace, on a few occasions when they are not home, and don't take anything, but rearrange the furniture and leave odd items purchased from a thrift store, as well as out of season holiday decorations. Obtain the VIN number from their car by peering through the windshield and obtain a spare key from the manufacturer. Don't steal their car, but move it around the block and leave a pile of empty beer cans visible on the front seat a few times. They will end up calling the police numerous times until they wont be taken seriously. Putting LSD in their drinking water, and hacking their home phone line and breathing heavily on the line takes more effort, but is always possible as well. Just need to obtain the unique color codes of their phone line to hack it from a few miles away. Dressing up in suits and renting a new Crown Victoria and interviewing their neighbors about them without identifying yourself might work also. Yes, it might take a little work, but would be entertaining. Of the times that I've done this, we had to record the responses and reactions in detail which took most of the fun out of it. Plus, the dispatch uses of the black helicopters was unnecessarily costly and too iconic. Knock on the door and tell them what's going on and simply explain it. The puzzle piece is rather clever and unlikely to be found by anyone, and if it is, they wont have any idea. Edited December 19, 2014 by 4wheelin_fool Quote Link to comment
Mr.Yuck Posted December 19, 2014 Share Posted December 19, 2014 [*]Conduct a silent campaign of discrediting the complainants. Find out what brand of locks they use and obtain a bump key. Enter their household without leaving a trace, on a few occasions when they are not home, and don't take anything, but rearrange the furniture and leave odd items purchased from a thrift store, as well as out of season holiday decorations. Obtain the VIN number from their car by peering through the windshield and obtain a spare key from the manufacturer. Don't steal their car, but move it around the block and leave a pile of empty beer cans visible on the front seat a few times. They will end up calling the police numerous times until they wont be taken seriously. Putting LSD in their drinking water, and hacking their home phone line and breathing heavily on the line takes more effort, but is always possible as well. Just need to obtain the unique color codes of their phone line to hack it from a few miles away. Dressing up in suits and renting a new Crown Victoria and interviewing their neighbors about them without identifying yourself might work also. Yes, it might take a little work, but would be entertaining. Of the times that I've done this, we had to record the responses and reactions in detail which took most of the fun out of it. Plus, the dispatch uses of the black helicopters was unnecessarily costly and too iconic. I'm somehow reminded of the once popular, but now mostly insignificant comedian Steven Wright. "I woke up this morning and discovered that everything in my apartment had been stolen and replaced with an exact replica." Quote Link to comment
+SwineFlew Posted December 19, 2014 Share Posted December 19, 2014 [*]Conduct a silent campaign of discrediting the complainants. Find out what brand of locks they use and obtain a bump key. Enter their household without leaving a trace, on a few occasions when they are not home, and don't take anything, but rearrange the furniture and leave odd items purchased from a thrift store, as well as out of season holiday decorations. Obtain the VIN number from their car by peering through the windshield and obtain a spare key from the manufacturer. Don't steal their car, but move it around the block and leave a pile of empty beer cans visible on the front seat a few times. They will end up calling the police numerous times until they wont be taken seriously. Putting LSD in their drinking water, and hacking their home phone line and breathing heavily on the line takes more effort, but is always possible as well. Just need to obtain the unique color codes of their phone line to hack it from a few miles away. Dressing up in suits and renting a new Crown Victoria and interviewing their neighbors about them without identifying yourself might work also. Yes, it might take a little work, but would be entertaining. Of the times that I've done this, we had to record the responses and reactions in detail which took most of the fun out of it. Plus, the dispatch uses of the black helicopters was unnecessarily costly and too iconic. Are you off of your med again? Quote Link to comment
+NeverSummer Posted December 19, 2014 Share Posted December 19, 2014 I don't know what legal basis they would have to keep people out, as the railway would be the ones to complain. This still doesn't address the fact that it is private property (the RR), and you've been asked to stay off of it by law enforcement. The next question is if people are aware that this is still RR ROW, and to find out if they have permission to hide caches there in the first place. Quote Link to comment
+SwineFlew Posted December 19, 2014 Share Posted December 19, 2014 If the neighbors are using the RR property like its their own, its against the law to harass others to stay out of it. Hypocrites. Quote Link to comment
+The A-Team Posted December 19, 2014 Share Posted December 19, 2014 If the neighbors are using the RR property like its their own, its against the law to harass others to stay out of it. This doesn't sound right. To use an analogy, if I habitually drove 10 over the speed limit, saw someone pass me at a much higher speed, and reported their license plate to the police, I'd be somehow breaking the law by reporting the other driver because I'm a hypocrite? Maybe the law is different where you are, but hypocrisy isn't illegal around these parts. Getting back to the original discussion, I don't see where there's any grey area or ambiguity. It seems pretty straightforward to me. RR abandoned, but still owned by RR, trespassing? Was permission obtained from the RR when the caches were placed? 1. If yes, then no trespassing has occurred, because you've been granted permission to be there. 2. If no, then you shouldn't be there. Quote Link to comment
+NeverSummer Posted December 19, 2014 Share Posted December 19, 2014 If the neighbors are using the RR property like its their own, its against the law to harass others to stay out of it. Hypocrites. And that's a law enforcement issue apart from the game of geocaching, and apart from our concern here. If someone wants to tell the RR that the neighbors are squatting on their land, that's their prerogative. Now, if it is RR property, do those caches have permission to be there? That's a geocaching-related issue at hand here. Quote Link to comment
4wheelin_fool Posted December 20, 2014 Author Share Posted December 20, 2014 I don't know what legal basis they would have to keep people out, as the railway would be the ones to complain. This still doesn't address the fact that it is private property (the RR), and you've been asked to stay off of it by law enforcement. The next question is if people are aware that this is still RR ROW, and to find out if they have permission to hide caches there in the first place. There is no signage indicating that you cannot walk there, only signage warning against dumping. If law enforcement makes a request, that's much different than enforcing actual laws. Often they side with whoever complains first without checking to see if their issue is valid. Quote Link to comment
+Colonial Cats Posted December 20, 2014 Share Posted December 20, 2014 So do the nearby residents have just cause to alert the police to someone walking on someone else's property? Sure. You have just cause to alert police if you see someone acting suspicious in the public right-of-way too. How suspicious it appears to others likely depends on the area it's in and the adjacent properties. If it cuts next to residential areas, it likely gets more notice than if it just ran through a quiet industrial area. Someone's simple presence shouldn't be considered suspicious. Perhaps if I was running with a pair of bolt cutters there would be cause. Let's see a picture of you first before we decide. Quote Link to comment
+BikeBill Posted December 20, 2014 Share Posted December 20, 2014 <<There is no signage indicating that you cannot walk there, only signage warning against dumping. >> A good point. I've found most of the caches along this section of RR line, and have never seen any signage indicating private property or no trespassing. If SEPTA considers the ROW to be private property, they are doing little or nothing to communicate that to the public. Quote Link to comment
+wmpastor Posted December 20, 2014 Share Posted December 20, 2014 <<There is no signage indicating that you cannot walk there, only signage warning against dumping. >> A good point. I've found most of the caches along this section of RR line, and have never seen any signage indicating private property or no trespassing. If SEPTA considers the ROW to be private property, they are doing little or nothing to communicate that to the public. So we're concluding that since there is not and cannot be any train traffic there now, the "Frisbee rule" applies, correct? Quote Link to comment
4wheelin_fool Posted December 20, 2014 Author Share Posted December 20, 2014 So do the nearby residents have just cause to alert the police to someone walking on someone else's property? Sure. You have just cause to alert police if you see someone acting suspicious in the public right-of-way too. How suspicious it appears to others likely depends on the area it's in and the adjacent properties. If it cuts next to residential areas, it likely gets more notice than if it just ran through a quiet industrial area. Someone's simple presence shouldn't be considered suspicious. Perhaps if I was running with a pair of bolt cutters there would be cause. Let's see a picture of you first before we decide. I'm 6'3", albino looking with a bright orange receding hairline and a huge belly. Ruggedly handsome. What I'm thinking now is that because I took a picture of the unusual sidewalk out in front of their house before walking in drew their attention. Quote Link to comment
+wmpastor Posted December 20, 2014 Share Posted December 20, 2014 Suspicion is in the eye of the beholder. To someone with nothing much to do but watch the world from behind their curtains, *anything* out of the ordinary and not completely understood by them is suspicious, especially if they are by nature timid or fearful. Quote Link to comment
+Uncle Alaska Posted December 20, 2014 Share Posted December 20, 2014 (edited) Suspicion is in the eye of the beholder. To someone with nothing much to do but watch the world from behind their curtains, *anything* out of the ordinary and not completely understood by them is suspicious, especially if they are by nature timid or fearful. Especially when the media and the government are constantly telling that someone behind the curtains; ISIS is floating their toyota trucks across the Atlantic ocean to kill Americans... Edited December 20, 2014 by Uncle Alaska Quote Link to comment
4wheelin_fool Posted December 20, 2014 Author Share Posted December 20, 2014 [*]Conduct a silent campaign of discrediting the complainants. Find out what brand of locks they use and obtain a bump key. Enter their household without leaving a trace, on a few occasions when they are not home, and don't take anything, but rearrange the furniture and leave odd items purchased from a thrift store, as well as out of season holiday decorations. Obtain the VIN number from their car by peering through the windshield and obtain a spare key from the manufacturer. Don't steal their car, but move it around the block and leave a pile of empty beer cans visible on the front seat a few times. They will end up calling the police numerous times until they wont be taken seriously. Putting LSD in their drinking water, and hacking their home phone line and breathing heavily on the line takes more effort, but is always possible as well. Just need to obtain the unique color codes of their phone line to hack it from a few miles away. Dressing up in suits and renting a new Crown Victoria and interviewing their neighbors about them without identifying yourself might work also. Yes, it might take a little work, but would be entertaining. Of the times that I've done this, we had to record the responses and reactions in detail which took most of the fun out of it. Plus, the dispatch uses of the black helicopters was unnecessarily costly and too iconic. I'm somehow reminded of the once popular, but now mostly insignificant comedian Steven Wright. "I woke up this morning and discovered that everything in my apartment had been stolen and replaced with an exact replica." If the local police are fans of Occam's razor, then any complex or unusual acts will not be noticed or investigated. Quote Link to comment
+coachstahly Posted December 20, 2014 Share Posted December 20, 2014 Nice rack(s)! Quote Link to comment
+BikeBill Posted December 20, 2014 Share Posted December 20, 2014 (edited) <<I'm 6'3", albino looking with a bright orange receding hairline and a huge belly. Ruggedly handsome. >> If I see you dancing around like that in front of my house, I'm calling the police, too!! I checked with a friend who does more caching than I do, and he concurs, that there are no posted signs on the dormant RR. On top of that, a portion of the R8 has been turned into a section of the Pennypack Trail, with the tracks removed. Montgomery County leased the section from SEPTA for $1 in 2008. So I'm not advocating trespassing, but it seems SEPTA doesn't much care and this might be more a case of cranky/paranoid/overly concerned homeowners. We Geocache all the time in parking lots which are technically private property, too, but if not posted are considered acceptable. wmpastor said: <<So we're concluding that since there is not and cannot be any train traffic there now, the "Frisbee rule" applies, correct? >> I gotta ask - what's the "Frisbee Rule"? Edited December 20, 2014 by BikeBill Quote Link to comment
4wheelin_fool Posted December 20, 2014 Author Share Posted December 20, 2014 Nice rack! I'll be sure to let my girlfriend know you liked her rack. It's a Thule. Quote Link to comment
4wheelin_fool Posted December 20, 2014 Author Share Posted December 20, 2014 <<I'm 6'3", albino looking with a bright orange receding hairline and a huge belly. Ruggedly handsome. >> If I see you dancing around like that in front of my house, I'm calling the police, too!! I checked with a friend who does more caching than I do, and he concurs, that there are no posted signs on the dormant RR. On top of that, a portion of the R8 has been turned into a section of the Pennypack Trail, with the tracks removed. Montgomery County leased the section from SEPTA for $1 in 2008. So I'm not advocating trespassing, but it seems SEPTA doesn't much care and this might be more a case of cranky/paranoid/overly concerned homeowners. We Geocache all the time in parking lots which are technically private property, too, but if not posted are considered acceptable. wmpastor said: <<So we're concluding that since there is not and cannot be any train traffic there now, the "Frisbee rule" applies, correct? >> I gotta ask - what's the "Frisbee Rule"? Well out of the list I provided, I would do it in this order: 2,4,1,3. The frisbee rule says that anywhere frisbee is allowed, geocaching should be fine. Although there are some parking lots where frisbee would create a problem. Quote Link to comment
+dprovan Posted December 20, 2014 Share Posted December 20, 2014 Let's say you have a General Mills plant (or General Electric or whatever) a block from your home. I'm not talking about a business that you'd expect folks to be wondering around on, such as a department store or gas station, but a private business. (Entrance gate, badges, etc.) What would you think about going over there and just wandering around on their property? Probably not a good idea. And yet, walking along or on railroad tracks is the exact same thing -- wandering around on private corporate property. The only areas of the ROW that have been granted for the public to be on, for a very limited time, is at public crossings, such as highway crossings or sidewalks that cross the tracks. OK. Now let's consider that instead of "Entrance gate, badges, etc.", the plant has been dismantled and all that's left are the roads that run through the property. I wouldn't hesitate to walk on them. (But then, I have to admit I walk next to active rail lines from time to time to look for benchmarks.) Quote Link to comment
+Sharks-N-Beans Posted December 20, 2014 Share Posted December 20, 2014 Well out of the list I provided, I would do it in this order: 2,4,1,3. I would stop at the first sentence of #2. Quote Link to comment
+Sharks-N-Beans Posted December 20, 2014 Share Posted December 20, 2014 Let's say you have a General Mills plant (or General Electric or whatever) a block from your home. I'm not talking about a business that you'd expect folks to be wondering around on, such as a department store or gas station, but a private business. (Entrance gate, badges, etc.) What would you think about going over there and just wandering around on their property? Probably not a good idea. And yet, walking along or on railroad tracks is the exact same thing -- wandering around on private corporate property. The only areas of the ROW that have been granted for the public to be on, for a very limited time, is at public crossings, such as highway crossings or sidewalks that cross the tracks. OK. Now let's consider that instead of "Entrance gate, badges, etc.", the plant has been dismantled and all that's left are the roads that run through the property. I wouldn't hesitate to walk on them. (But then, I have to admit I walk next to active rail lines from time to time to look for benchmarks.) But would you throw a hissy if the cops told you to leave? Quote Link to comment
+NanCycle Posted December 20, 2014 Share Posted December 20, 2014 There is no signage indicating that you cannot walk there, only signage warning against dumping. Rather ironic that the very individuals who are doing the illegal dumping are the ones complaining about the not-illegal walking. Quote Link to comment
+MountainWoods Posted December 20, 2014 Share Posted December 20, 2014 Let's say you have a General Mills plant (or General Electric or whatever) a block from your home. I'm not talking about a business that you'd expect folks to be wondering around on, such as a department store or gas station, but a private business. (Entrance gate, badges, etc.) What would you think about going over there and just wandering around on their property? Probably not a good idea. And yet, walking along or on railroad tracks is the exact same thing -- wandering around on private corporate property. The only areas of the ROW that have been granted for the public to be on, for a very limited time, is at public crossings, such as highway crossings or sidewalks that cross the tracks. OK. Now let's consider that instead of "Entrance gate, badges, etc.", the plant has been dismantled and all that's left are the roads that run through the property. I wouldn't hesitate to walk on them. (But then, I have to admit I walk next to active rail lines from time to time to look for benchmarks.) For one thing, you'll notice that I was talking about where there are railroad tracks. Not where railroad tracks had been. As someone else pointed out (adding more useful information), abandoned and removed is not the same thing as simply sitting there looking derelict. As long as there are tracks there, it is likely private property. If trains run on it from time to time, it is definitely private property. Quote Link to comment
+NYPaddleCacher Posted December 21, 2014 Share Posted December 21, 2014 Nice rack(s)! Agreed. Are those Malone racks? I met Tom Malone many years ago at a kayak symposium in Maine when he was primarily just making paddles. He was probably the first to make a commercially sold traditional greenland style kayak paddle but has had a lot more success in the kayak rack market. Quote Link to comment
+Harry Dolphin Posted December 21, 2014 Share Posted December 21, 2014 (edited) Nice rack! I'll be sure to let my girlfriend know you liked her rack. It's a Thule. I was more concerned about, at 6'2", how well you fit in a Corolla? I rented a recent-year one, and did not fit! though I do manage well in my 2002. In New Jersey, at least, when a railroad becomes inactive, the rails were removed to lower the property taxes. That may have changed. I was geocaching along one that used to go into a Federal facility. The railroad is obviously abandoned (and no longer goes across the highway into the Federal facility). but the rails are still there. Edited December 21, 2014 by Harry Dolphin Quote Link to comment
4wheelin_fool Posted December 21, 2014 Author Share Posted December 21, 2014 I was more concerned about, at 6'2", how well you fit in a Corolla? I rented a recent-year one, and did not fit! though I do manage well in my 2002. In New Jersey, at least, when a railroad becomes inactive, the rails were removed to lower the property taxes. That may have changed. I was geocaching along one that used to go into a Federal facility. The railroad is obviously abandoned (and no longer goes across the highway into the Federal facility). but the rails are still there. I believe hers is a 2005, and at 6'3", I still fit fine with about 3 inches of head room, although I must put the seat all the way back. I don't think the newer ones are as good though. There's plenty of track still through the Wharton a State forest, and that's long abandoned and owned by the state. However the incident mentioned in the original post was in PA. I don't think there's anything wrong with the placement, although surprised that the RR still owned it. Perhaps contact with a representative to inquire about using it as a walking trail is needed. Quote Link to comment
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