+Ttepee Posted October 8, 2002 Share Posted October 8, 2002 Recently I submitted a request to Putnam County Parks for permission for this cache: GC117D I had placed a year prior. Here is the response that I received today Dear Ms. Ttepee In reference to your letter regarding geocaching in the Michael Ciaiola Conservation Area I would like to refer to the Rules & Regulations Governing the activities allowed on all county owned conservation lands. Rule #1 States: Putnam County Conservation Areas are for the sole use of Putnam County Residents and their guests." In this rule the term guest refers to a person or persons physically accompanying a county resident. It is therefore, determined that this activity would be allowable for county residents. However, the means in which it is promoted via the internet may mislead non-county residents to think it allowable for them. They would run the risk of a possible trespass violation. It is in my professional opinion that the internet promoting of geocaching on any Putnam County lands should cease and desist immediately. Very truly yours, Mr. Harold J. Gary Putnam County Department of Highways & Facilities 842 Fair Street Carmel, NY 10512 845-878-6331 Here is a link to their web page That the consideration of adding a disclaimer to the cache page was never made just boggles my mind. I'd like to cover all the bases in my response so I'm hoping for some of those great ideas and angles you people come up with so that I don't miss anything. I am going away this weekend and have alot of preparing to do but I know I'm going to be obsessing about this if I don't respond before I leave. To Top it off I screwed up my computer at work today and I've got to unscrew it or there's no screwing off for me during the day. So any help will be greatly appreciated. Thanks Ttepee Quote Link to comment
+jonboy Posted October 9, 2002 Share Posted October 9, 2002 I would think that your best hope for winning permission would be to appeal to your local political representative, but I doubt if you would arouse much interest unless your appeal coincideded with a large political donation on your part. I can't help but say I told you so Ttepee. There is really no incentive for park officials to say yes to such a request, and every reason for them to say no. I doubt this parks Department had given any thought to Geocaching, but now that you have brought it to their attention, they cannot ignore it. I hope they don't scour the website for any other caches on county park lands, such as the ones at Ninham mountain. I realize that you are trying to do the right thing, but please don't write to any of the other land managers requesting permission for your caches. I like your caches and would hate to lose them. All of your caches on NPS lands on the AT would be subject to removal, that I am sure of. Likewise those placed within the Taconic Region State parks. I would be interested to know if anyone in our area has gotten official written permission to place a cache. I really doubt it, why would any land manager want to go out on a limb like that for such an obscure new sport? Don't freak out over this totally forseeable turn of events Ttepee. Just learn the lesson that your quixotic attempts to obtain written permission for placing caches will almost always fail. I have dealt with these park officials for years in my trail work. They might think such a decision called for an environmental impact statement or enabling legislation. Let sleeping dogs lie. Quote Link to comment
+Ttepee Posted October 9, 2002 Author Share Posted October 9, 2002 Hi Jonboy, I have a letter to you sitting in my drafts box that was just waiting for the Putnam response... my reply to you on this whole permission thing. I had hoped to have another favorable response to back up my viewpoint. When I spoke to them on the phone I was told This sounds exactly like the kind of activity we want going on in our parks. I was told that they were laying out all kinds of new trails using the gps and offered me their maps which are not in print yet to help the cause. So this came as a surprise to me. I can only think of one other cache that might be affected by this decision, Hudson's Foley... if you go to the Putnam County page you can see which areas it affects. (Ninhm is State MUA) I do have written permission from Locust Grove and Scenic Hudson for 2 caches and an open line of communication for future authorizations. The state has chosen to ignore my multiple letters, phone calls and visits but the rangers are well aware of my caches, most not taking a stand either way. One state park ranger upstate has gone to bat for my cache with the state and keeps an eye on it for me. If they want to ignore me then that's fine by me at this point... just let them try to tell me I never tried to get permission. This is the first time I was ever actually told no. I understand where you are coming from but in my heart I disagree. I've been watching the forums for 15 months now... it seems most times the parks kick geocaching out they say it's because THEY WERE NEVER ASKED! I am not a politcal activist by long shot... I just love the sport and want to be able to participate without feeling guilty or that I'm sneaking around. That's not an angle on the game that I enjoy. I know I'm extremly naive in the way of legislation. I had hoped that communication would provide advocates before a negative relationship was formed with the geocaching community. I'm done talking to the state at this point... they know where to find me if they ever choose to aknowledge my request. The AT caches I have no intention of persuing authorization for... those I know I'd be way over my head in legislation. As for other placements I can't say what I'll do yet. I do not mean to jepordize other cache placements and will try to be cautious in my approach to prevent this but even though this slows down my hiding rate I prefer to feel that I have tried. I am not trying to debate you on the matter though.. I can understand where you're coming from and you are right in that mind set. Maybe in this situation you could say that I prefer to remain naive, I don't want to know all the political ramifications of taking a hike in the woods. It takes all the fun out of it. Quote Link to comment
+Ttepee Posted October 9, 2002 Author Share Posted October 9, 2002 One of the main things I'd like to know is how other counties operate. I'm pretty sure I can go to Westchester and purchase a county pass to use their parks. I would expect that from Town parks.. but not even city parks seem like they are closed to the general public. I could see in order to rent a shelter or Gazebo needing to be a resident but for an 800 acre conservation area with no facilities to be trespassing just going for a walk? Is that how county parks typically operate? Quote Link to comment
mortonfox Posted October 9, 2002 Share Posted October 9, 2002 quote:Originally posted by Ttepee: to the general public. I could see in order to rent a shelter or Gazebo needing to be a resident but for an 800 acre conservation area with no facilities to be trespassing just going for a walk? Is that how county parks typically operate? No, that's not how most county parks operate. Otherwise, we'd be shut out of a majority of geocaches. With some county and town parks, there may be restrictions on non-residents using certain parking areas but not the park itself. One question I have: Is Rule #1 posted at the entrance to Putnam County Conservation Areas? If not, then maybe it's better not to know about it. Quote Link to comment
+Dekaner Posted October 9, 2002 Share Posted October 9, 2002 Please please please don't every stop asking permission. I wish I had more time to get into this argument ... er discussion, but I'm swamped at work. - Dekaner of Team KKF2A Quote Link to comment
enfanta Posted October 9, 2002 Share Posted October 9, 2002 How the heck do they enforce this?? Do you have to carry a county identification card??? Really, this isn't a hypothetical question, how do they enforce this rule? Quote Link to comment
+Ttepee Posted October 9, 2002 Author Share Posted October 9, 2002 quote:Originally posted by StayFloopy: One question I have: Is Rule #1 posted at the entrance to Putnam County Conservation Areas? If not, then maybe it's better not to know about it. I was questioning this also. The only sign I could ever recall seeing was this one I drove by there on my way home from work today to see if there was another sign by the road or something that I had missed and it turns out they have a brand new sign along with kiosk and trail maps. The second line on the sign reads exactly as he stated rule #1. I can't imagine how they would enforce it... maybe this is step #1 for them. Quote Link to comment
+briansnat Posted October 9, 2002 Share Posted October 9, 2002 quote: I understand where you are coming from but in my heart I disagree. I've been watching the forums for 15 months now... it seems most times the parks kick geocaching out they say it's because THEY WERE NEVER ASKED! Why MUST we ask? Does a deer hunter ask before he puts up a stand? Does a wildlife photographer ask before he installs a movement sensitive camera? Does a hiker ask permission to hike? If the park regulations don't prohibit an activity and it is not against the law, then why is permission required? "Life is a daring adventure, or it is nothing" - Helen Keller Quote Link to comment
+Alan2 Posted October 9, 2002 Share Posted October 9, 2002 I agree with briansnat. If I want to go fly a kite, I don't ask permission. If I want to spread out a blanket and have a picnic, I don't ask permission. As long as there's no prohibition against a specific activity, why ask for permission? Alan Quote Link to comment
enfanta Posted October 9, 2002 Share Posted October 9, 2002 quote: Why MUST we ask? Does a deer hunter ask before he puts up a stand? Does a wildlife photographer ask before he installs a movement sensitive camera? Does a hiker ask permission to hike? If the park regulations don't prohibit an activity and it is not against the law, then why is permission required? quote: ...If I want to go fly a kite, I don't ask permission. If I want to spread out a blanket and have a picnic, I don't ask permission. As long as there's no prohibition against a specific activity, why ask for permission? Unlike the hiker, the kite-flier and (I hope) the picnicker, we leave things behind. Unlike the hunter and photographer, we encourage others to follow us. Until we can convince the parks that we are an asset and not a liability, we will be watched and hindered. Let's not make them the enemy, folks, but encourage them to welcome us. Ttepee, you had a great idea about adding a disclaimer to the web page: have you approached Mr. Gary with that idea? Quote Link to comment
+Dekaner Posted October 9, 2002 Share Posted October 9, 2002 If you want to have a small picnic, do you ask permission? Nope. If you want to have a large event, do you ask permission? Sure do, in the form of a permit, etc. The difference? The size. How does it relate? Geocaching will draw many people to one specific area. If you don't ask permission, eventually they will find out, one way or another. Being honest and upfront is always your best course. - Dekaner of Team KKF2A Quote Link to comment
+briansnat Posted October 10, 2002 Share Posted October 10, 2002 quote:The difference? The size. How does it relate? Geocaching will draw many people to one specific area. Many people??? I have over 30 caches out. My most popular has had 35 visits since it was placed almost a year ago. That averages out to a bit more than two a month. Out of the rest of my caches, my oldest has 27 visits in over a year, which averages out to about two visits a month. Most of the rest have less than 20 visits. So we're not exactly talking about hordes of people out there visiting these things. Heck, once a cache has been out a while, I'm lucky if it gets a visit every two months. Several have gone 3 or more months without a visit. quote:If you don't ask permission, eventually they will find out, one way or another. Many of my caches have been out there close to a year and most of them for more than 6 months. They haven't been "found out" yet, or they have, the land manager doesn't care. If they eventually are found out and removed, they had a pretty good run and created an enjoyable experience for a number of people. I bet you that if I asked permission, I'd have gotten mostly NO's. Like Jonboy, I've dealt with park officials over the years through my work as a trail maintainer/builder. I know how rigid and unimaginitive they can be. At best the bureaucrats would still be trying to make a decision (witness the thread on PA parks). quote:Being honest and upfront is always your best course. The cache locations are posted on the Internet for millions to see. How much more honest and upfront can one be? [This message was edited by BrianSnat on October 10, 2002 at 04:46 AM.] Quote Link to comment
+Alan2 Posted October 10, 2002 Share Posted October 10, 2002 THe Forest manager stumbled into one of my my caches in July while he was checking the area for "foreign" species in a NYC park here in Queens. He signed the log, left a few updated trail maps, thought the whole deal was "cool" and requested that we try not to go off trail too much to not "damage" the vegetation. I'm still trying to understand what he meant since the cache itself is "off-trail". When I found out about his "find", I called to speak to him about caching in general and hiding caches specifically in NYC parks,but he never returned my call. I don't think NYC parks has a position on caching. So I figured to not push the call and let sleeping dogs lie. Also, I have this sneaky suspicion that he really didn't stumble into it and found it from this site but regardless, he didn't remove it and he didn't ask me to remove it. I think most managers would say the same. This is interesting, but not necessarily say that this is not allowed unless it specifically is prohibited like in National Parks. Once you ask if it's OK, you put them on the spot and then they start to question acceptability. This ask first "rule" was established by geocaching.com. Maybe it's not a good rule in certain circumsances and judgement has to be used when to apply it. Alan Quote Link to comment
+Alan2 Posted October 10, 2002 Share Posted October 10, 2002 Alternatively, I hid a cache in a park that I subsequently learned was a National Recreation Area. In Brooklyn of all places!!! Scheesh. You think it was Montana. In any case, I called the manager who asked me to remove it because it was NRA policy to not allow caches. I was gone when we returned. Lok like it had been plundered.In any case, reasonable judgement should be applied to this "rule" depending on the park and circumstances. Alan Quote Link to comment
+briansnat Posted October 11, 2002 Share Posted October 11, 2002 quote:This ask first "rule" was established by geocaching.com. There isn't really an ask first rule (except on private land). What they do say is to check the regulations before placing a cache on public lands. I always do this before placing a cache. Quote Link to comment
+Dekaner Posted October 11, 2002 Share Posted October 11, 2002 I think that there really are two mindsets on this argument and that we are just beating a very dead horse. When it all comes down to it, do what you feel is proper. I always ask permission before I place a cache. That doesn't mean I won't hunt a cache placed without permission. Ultimatly it's the cache owner's responsibility. If he/she gets fined/ticketed/arrested/etc. (remember the cacher who put a cache in a train tunnel?!) that's their fault. May it hurt Geocaching in the long run? Maybe, maybe not. In the meantime I'll be drafting up some more letters for the parks in my area to make sure it doesn't. What's the worse that can happen? They say no. Well if they find the cache later they'd say no anyway. I don't think the hassle of dealing with that after the fact is worth the time it takes for them to find it. (And yes, eventually they will find it.) At least if you ask first you have a better chance of starting off on the right foot. Sometimes people say no after the fact just to spite you. - Dekaner of Team KKF2A Quote Link to comment
+Dekaner Posted October 11, 2002 Share Posted October 11, 2002 Somehow I got off the bandwagon just to pick it back up at it's next stop. Really, I'll quit now. - Dekaner of Team KKF2A Quote Link to comment
+jonboy Posted October 11, 2002 Share Posted October 11, 2002 For park officials, I don't think the reason for denying permission or not replying to requests for permission is malice, rather it is risk avoidance. The issue of if geocaching is acceptable is a policy issue, not one for land managers to make themselves. As such, on NY state land it would have to be covered in the state land use master plan, if it is to be officially permitted. Individual rangers may give tacit approval by not acting to remove caches that they are aware of, but it is really asking them to go out on a limb to put in writing a decision about appropiate use that really must be decided at the highest levels. For them to endorse this sport when they don't know how their superiors will come down on the issue would be foolish. Why put them on the spot by demanding official acceptance? If they have objected to the placement of a cache in their area, I would avoid putting one there, and remove any I have out already. This is really what bothers me, is that I may be forced to remove my caches by some one else's well intentioned misjudgment. This may be an activity that they are prepared to tolerate, but not endorse, and I think we would be foolish to press the issue. Quote Link to comment
dboggny Posted October 11, 2002 Share Posted October 11, 2002 quote:Originally posted by Alan2:...and requested that we try not to go off trail too much to not "damage" the vegetation. I'm still trying to understand what he meant since the cache itself is "off-trail". Alan maybe what he meant was not to put the cache too far off trail in general... the cache which you placed may not have been in that particular "protected area" that the parks department is using these days to "save native vegitation". so in the future, what he might be suggesting is just to use care generally in how far off the trails the caches are placed. he may not have been critisizing your cache placement specifically, but making a general suggestion/request. SR and dboggny. my mother in law rides a broom! Quote Link to comment
+Alan2 Posted October 11, 2002 Share Posted October 11, 2002 quote: When it all comes down to it, do what you feel is proper. I always ask permission before I place a cache. That doesn't mean I won't hunt a cache placed without permission. Ultimatly it's the cache owner's responsibility. If he/she gets fined/ticketed/arrested/etc. (remember the cacher who put a cache in a train tunnel?!) that's their fault. Is it OKto buy a $1200 watch on the street for $50 figuring that you weren't the one who stole it? quote: May it hurt Geocaching in the long run? Maybe, maybe not. In the meantime I'll be drafting up some more letters for the parks in my area to make sure it doesn't. What's the worse that can happen? They say no. Well if they find the cache later they'd say no anyway. I don't think the hassle of dealing with that after the fact is worth the time it takes for them to find it. (And yes, eventually they will find it.) At least if you ask first you have a better chance of starting off on the right foot. Sometimes people say no after the fact just to spite you. So it's better to ask permision and when they say no say screw you and place it anyway? How is that better than not asking permission when no prohibition is listed? Sorry I'm confused. I know I'm bending the "truth" but I don't get it at all the other way. Alan Quote Link to comment
+briansnat Posted October 12, 2002 Share Posted October 12, 2002 I agree 100 pct. with Jonboy and couldn't have said it better. "Life is a daring adventure, or it is nothing" - Helen Keller Quote Link to comment
Reamerstraff Posted October 13, 2002 Share Posted October 13, 2002 Regarding Alan2's analogy about the $1200 watch. It would NOT be okay to BUY it, knowing it was stolen. However, I see know reason why it would not be okay to look at the watch and walk away. The purchaser of the watch removes it from the marketplace and reduces the chance of the rightful owner ever getting it back. Also, the very fact that the street vendor has thw watch to sell suggests that it is stolen. When a cacher visits a cache, he doesn't take it with him, thus "removing it from the marketplace." The fact that the cache exists at all does not suggest that it was placed there without permission. Visiting the cache does not participate in harming the cache owner the way that buying the watch participates in harming the watch owner. Quote Link to comment
+Dekaner Posted October 13, 2002 Share Posted October 13, 2002 I agree that you run into a grey area when you ask someone for permission to place a cache when they are already a number hidden in that park/area/whatever. We ran into this situation at a recent picnic. I wanted to hide a cache there to commemorate it, but there were already 6 (now 7) caches in this state park. I emailed all of the owners asking if they had permission (none did) and that I was considering asking permission, and what their feelings would be if they came back with a big n-o. Even though I had their buy in to ask - in the long run I decided not to risk it for them and just placed a cache for the day only. - Dekaner of Team KKF2A Quote Link to comment
+Alan2 Posted October 13, 2002 Share Posted October 13, 2002 Regarding reamerstraff's point that a person wouldn't know that hunting a cache hidden without permission - the point by the other poster was , "That doesn't mean I won't hunt a cache placed without permission." that he knew it was hidden without permission but hunted it anyway. That's why I made the analogy to the stolen watch. But I don't want to get picky about all of this. The point is 80% of us hide caches without permission from a previous topic poll a few months ago and probably 100% of us hunt these caches. My "holier than thou" post was really intended to point up the original"holier than thou" post. No ones hands are really "clean", that's all. I'm sure we'd all like to "do the right thing" but sometimes it's hard to be sure what the right thing is. Alan Quote Link to comment
+Dekaner Posted October 13, 2002 Share Posted October 13, 2002 Seeing as how (I think) that was directed back to me. Sure, I guess I hunt caches that haven't been explicitly permitted, but then again how would a cacher know if a cache was permitted or not? At the bottom of all of my caches you'll find something similar to this: This 'cache has been approved by the Buffalo Parks Department. I also put it on the cache note inside the container. - Dekaner of Team KKF2A Quote Link to comment
+Alan2 Posted October 13, 2002 Share Posted October 13, 2002 I respect dekaner that you go to the trouble to get permission and note that in the cache page. However, if knowing that 80% of caches of others are placed without permission, than a person could email the cache owner first to find out if they did or didn't and limit his or her caching to just those that did. If a lot of people did that, hiders might spend more time trying to get permission and they would have a positive influence on getting others to do what you do. If geocaching.com came to the same belief as you, then they could force the issue by requiring from the hider a statement that permission was granted or the area does not required permission. But geocaching.com only states no hides in National Parks which is the original issue. What is the right thing for areas that have no current prohibition or policy - ask or don't ask? Alan Quote Link to comment
+Perfect Tommy Posted November 5, 2002 Share Posted November 5, 2002 Thought the following excerpt from an article appearing in yesterday's Metro Section of the New York Times profiling the three candidates for governor might be of some interest to area 'cachers: "The governor's greatest passions, besides politics, are hiking and bird watching. He can often be found on the weekends in Clarence Fahnestock Memorial State Park, leaving the trail and stomping off into the woods with binoculars, looking for an unusual bird." (emphasis added) The governor hiking off trail?!? Stomping through the woods!?! Call the rangers! Tteppee may want to consider redirecting her efforts up the ladder - in view of the governor's "passions", he may have a more sympathetic ear than the local land manager. Apparently there might even be an opportunity to lobby the governor on the trails. Quote Link to comment
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