FTF ethics

[+jellis]

There no such thing as an FTF stat, so I don't know what you're talking about here.

I would said there is no OFFICIAL FTF stats. Anyone can keep track of their own. So anyone can cheat on them and it's "who cares". It's basically just an unoffical game still with no winners and no losers.

[+Team Microdot]

...why Groundspeak does nothing more than just mention the "FTF" race in general terms.

 

Not quite true.

 

Groundspeak actively pushes the FTF prize on a very regular basis as one of the benefits of buying premium membership.

[+wmpastor]

Sorry...it's a basic concept, but may need explaining. It's not an "official" term, but "first" implies person. You are free to interpret "first" to refer to "group" or "crowd" or "antelope"...but it seems fairly obvious to me.

This is the bottom line. Saying that "first" implies "person" strikes me as entirely arbitrary, supported by neither the English language nor geocaching custom, yet you consider it beyond question.

Agreed. What's the big deal about groups??? The spectre of 100 or 1,000 person groups seeking FTFs is a red herring, a straw man and non-event. It ain't happening. And if it did once or twice, the world wouldn't end!

[+NeverSummer]

...why Groundspeak does nothing more than just mention the "FTF" race in general terms.

 

Not quite true.

 

Groundspeak actively pushes the FTF prize on a very regular basis as one of the benefits of buying premium membership.

They talk about it in mailings, sure. But they never talk about rules. They just say it's when you find "that clean, unsigned logbook...". And that's just external affairs/outreach talk--show me where Groundspeak outlines anything specific about a FTF "prize" (especially in the guidelines, or with an official mention or validity with, say, a statistic on your profile) beyond mention in some emails.

 

Back to my popcorn.

Edited December 11, 2014 by NeverSummer

[+Team Microdot]

...why Groundspeak does nothing more than just mention the "FTF" race in general terms.

 

Not quite true.

 

Groundspeak actively pushes the FTF prize on a very regular basis as one of the benefits of buying premium membership.

They talk about it in mailings, sure. But they never talk about rules. They just say it's when you find "that clean, unsigned logbook...". And that's just external affairs/outreach talk--show me where Groundspeak outlines anything specific about a FTF "prize" (especially in the guidelines, or with an official mention or validity with, say, a statistic on your profile) beyond mention in some emails.

 

Back to my popcorn.

 

Of course they never talk about rules - why would they?

 

Their sole purpose in pushing FTF hard in their, what was it again? external affairs? outreach talk? Is purely to dangle the carrot in a bid to tempt more individuals to hand over cold, hard cash in return for a shot at the prize of that clean, unsigned logbook...

 

Groundspeak actively pushes the FTF prize on a very regular basis as one of the benefits of buying premium membership.

 

Enjoy your popcorn.

[+thebruce0]

Where's that tinfoil hat smiley...

[+Team Microdot]

Where's that tinfoil hat smiley...

 

Right next to the ostrich smiley?

[+tozainamboku]

...why Groundspeak does nothing more than just mention the "FTF" race in general terms.

 

Not quite true.

 

Groundspeak actively pushes the FTF prize on a very regular basis as one of the benefits of buying premium membership.

They talk about it in mailings, sure. But they never talk about rules. They just say it's when you find "that clean, unsigned logbook...". And that's just external affairs/outreach talk--show me where Groundspeak outlines anything specific about a FTF "prize" (especially in the guidelines, or with an official mention or validity with, say, a statistic on your profile) beyond mention in some emails.

 

Back to my popcorn.

The terms of use indicate that while Groundspeak provides a service where individuals can exchange information about games and opportunities for location-based play, Groundspeak does not provide any games itself as part of its services. (I'm not sure the HQ cache or the Block Party event are?)

 

While Groundspeak offers ways for individuals to exchange information about location-based outdoor play, Groundspeak does not provide any games or location-based activities itself and such games are not part of our services

 

Certainly Groundspeak can suggest games and ways to play. These are suggestions and a few requirements/guidelines that restrict certain games from being listed (or sometimes even mentioned) on their websites. Groundspeak is also free to provide premium services to support games and game play. FTF is clearly a game that can be mentioned on Groundspeak's sites. From time to time they may suggest ways to play this game and point out that their premium service can be useful for this style of play. But the actual 'rules' and game play are left to individuals to decide on.

 

Threads like this one start because someone wants to apply their personal rules to how others play this game. They often degrade to where someone who don't want to play this game at all wants to make FTF simply a label to describe some other aspect of geocaching. While is is fun to debate what constitutes a find either for the purpose of deciding who is first or when to use 'Found' for your online log, Groundspeak's president has posted

Bickering over the rules of a cache "find" was never the intent of Geocaching.com.

Even though there might be an FTF prize, or a cache owner may award a mention on the cache page to the FTF, there's still no reason to get your knickers in a twist about anyone else's definition of a find.

[+thebruce0]

Where's that tinfoil hat smiley...

Right next to the ostrich smiley?

 

So... Groundspeak, a private company offering a costly service for really cheap considering what you get, wanting to find ways to sustain the business model (this is a given) and continue offering and improving the service, promotes a side-game that the community clearly and unabashedly enjoys, where some owners may even place prizes for first finders, so purchasing an upgraded account makes it more likely to be successful when attempting to be the first to find a new cache, and that somehow translates to Groundspeak (vague corporate entity)'s motivation merely being money...

1) the company's perceived priority of money vs the game is irrelevant to the discussion about FTF ethics

2) their 'definition', if you were to use their promotions as an indication that they recognize and define the concept, merely goes as far as recognizing that a] being "first to find" is fun (demonstrated by its inception and popularity in the worldwide community), and b] there may be prizes offered by cache owners to be won. Beyond that? (see thread...)

Edited December 11, 2014 by thebruce0

[+Team Microdot]

Where's that tinfoil hat smiley...

Right next to the ostrich smiley?

 

So... Groundspeak, a private company offering a costly service for really cheap considering what you get, wanting to find ways to sustain the business model (this is a given) and continue offering and improving the service, promotes a side-game that the community clearly and unabashedly enjoys, where some owners may even place prizes for first finders, so purchasing an upgraded account makes it more likely to be successful when attempting to be the first to find a new cache, and that somehow translates to Groundspeak (vague corporate entity)'s motivation merely being money...

1) the company's perceived priority of money vs the game is irrelevant to the discussion about FTF ethics

2) their 'definition', if you were to use their promotions as an indication that they recognize and define the concept, merely goes as far as recognizing that a] being "first to find" is fun (demonstrated by its inception and popularity in the worldwide community), and b] there may be prizes offered by cache owners to be won. Beyond that? (see thread...)

 

No - sorry - you've lost me there.

 

I can't help thinking that you're trying to make a point for some specific reason - but I can't quite put my finger on what it is.

[+thebruce0]

No - sorry - you've lost me there.

 

I can't help thinking that you're trying to make a point for some specific reason - but I can't quite put my finger on what it is.

 

Then I don't know what point you're trying to make

[+Team Microdot]

No - sorry - you've lost me there.

 

I can't help thinking that you're trying to make a point for some specific reason - but I can't quite put my finger on what it is.

 

Then I don't know what point you're trying to make

 

That'll be the tin foil hat blocking the mind probe

[+thebruce0]

[+dprovan]

Agreed. What's the big deal about groups??? The spectre of 100 or 1,000 person groups seeking FTFs is a red herring, a straw man and non-event. It ain't happening. And if it did once or twice, the world wouldn't end!

At the risk of starting an argument with someone that's agreeing with me...

 

Actually, I think a 100 or 1,000 person group going after FTF is a reasonable example that needs to be addressed. Yeah, in practice that many people would be rare if not impossible, but I've been in 20 person FTF groups, a much easier number to imagine, and a 20 person group has the same characteristics that are worrisome about a 1,000 person group: the find is often made before the rest of the group arrives at GZ, for example, and even if everyone gets to GZ, it's unlikely that all 20 will be able to find a place to search even in the even less likely case where all 20 feel a need to be involved in the search. And it would be perfectly reasonable to assume that the log wasn't signed by each and every one of them.

 

So I think makes sense to ask why all 1,000 people in a 1,000 people group should claim FTF. But even with that, I still say that the justification is simply that they were in the group, not that their role in the group was instrumental in finding the cache.

[+NeverSummer]

...why Groundspeak does nothing more than just mention the "FTF" race in general terms.

 

Not quite true.

 

Groundspeak actively pushes the FTF prize on a very regular basis as one of the benefits of buying premium membership.

They talk about it in mailings, sure. But they never talk about rules. They just say it's when you find "that clean, unsigned logbook...". And that's just external affairs/outreach talk--show me where Groundspeak outlines anything specific about a FTF "prize" (especially in the guidelines, or with an official mention or validity with, say, a statistic on your profile) beyond mention in some emails.

 

Back to my popcorn.

 

Of course they never talk about rules - why would they?

 

Their sole purpose in pushing FTF hard in their, what was it again? external affairs? outreach talk? Is purely to dangle the carrot in a bid to tempt more individuals to hand over cold, hard cash in return for a shot at the prize of that clean, unsigned logbook...

 

Groundspeak actively pushes the FTF prize on a very regular basis as one of the benefits of buying premium membership.

 

Enjoy your popcorn.

Well, yeah... It's a business afterall...

 

There are no rules, we can all admit that. Groundspeak mentions it on the blog or in weekly mailers, yes. That's the outreach/external affairs side of things. Then there's the internal affairs of programming, financial, daily operations, the store... Someone with a job to promote the game on Geocaching.com is doing just that: promoting geocaching on Geocaching.com, which includes the option to get some cool features if you sign up for a premium membership! They may not be too worried about a few angsty people battling out over dictionary definitions and chicken-and-egg scenarios in the forums, and therefore only trouble themselves with the simple, general aspects of the FTF side-game.

 

Groundspeak is aware that the "FTF" is a well-established side game, and that it is practiced all over the world. Being FTF can be fun, and the race to get there first can be a hoot. It can also cause a ton of anxiety, as I can see oozing from your posts. Sheesh...settle down!

 

Who brought the butter? I seem to need more for my popcorn. Oh, wait...

 

Edited December 12, 2014 by NeverSummer