The Invisible Man

[+-CJ-]

Yesterday I got an email message from one cacher whom I know. She described her experience of hunting a cache together with a colleague coming from country X (I don't want anyone to be offended on the national ground). My friend was surprised with the "X-style" of geocaching: the guy simply ignored all muggles that were around. People were passing by, she said, some of them turning their heads, looking a bit interested. There was a couple on a bench nearby who stared at the guy while he was possessed with his search. He finally found the container, signed the log and replaced it - all in the same style, like if he was the invisible man.

 

I wrote that she wasn't the first person who was surprised by people not using any stealth tactics while searching. I myself witnessed foreign cachers who paid no attention to the surrounding people. They started actively searching a cache immediately after they were at GZ. In one case a company of excited cachers talked too loudly so two workers came out of the nearest cafe to find our what was going on.

 

Once in a country Y. I grabbed a container, signed its logbook and was about to replace it but was interrupted by a company of three lads who approached the GZ and started their search. I put the container in my pocket and waited; they tried different locations and argued with each other loudly where this cache could be. I was standing only three steps away staring at them; they acted like if I was invisible. Finally, I asked them to stop, passed the cache to them and pointed at the place where they should put it afterwards.

 

In our local community we are trying to be very careful. There have been many caches where I abandoned my attempts because of muggles. I have always thought that the worst scenario would be that my actions would bring someone's attention to the cache and it would be muggled. In many cases I succeeded after waiting for half a hour or more. Sometimes I returned to a much crowded place but failed. We discussed a whole system of tricks here: bags, smoking, shoelaces, taking photos, all that things we used to camouflage our actions. But why don't our colleagues do the same?

 

Perhaps they are coming from other cultures where geocaching is a widely known sport. It is easier to grab a cache from below a bench and if your neighbours notice and ask questions you just make them happy with a story about geocaching. Perhaps they are subject to popular belief that normally no one in a crowd pays attention to what you're doing. So simply do what you do and don't worry. (This may be true in some cultures but definitely not here). Or probably they don't own any caches and therefore don't know how diffivcult it could be for its owner sometimes to organize a trip to replace a missing cache.

 

Recently one visitor grabbed my geocache while several meters away a company of youth enjoyed BBQ and beer. I visited this cache several hours after him during one of my regular maintenance trips. The container was already gone.

[+sholomar]

If caches are in too high muggle and area such as along busy roads I tend to skip them... if I do not skip Ill pretend Im texting or Ill have my keys in my hand and claim I dropped them and was looking for them... I do admit to part of me having an attitude that its none of their business, and getting annoyed by what I would dub 'busybodies'...

 

The one thing Ive learned about life is to assume that there is always someone paying attention, sometime to some of the most mundane things. The question then becomes whether one cares or not...

Edited October 18, 2014 by sholomar

[+wmpastor]

I agree with the OP completely. Caches go missing because cachers aren't careful enough.

 

Yesterday I posted this DNF on a D1.5 cache:

 

I'm sure it's easy and that I was at GZ, but I couldn't do a full search because of Friday night muggle activity - three kids (about age 7) were sitting within 20 feet of GZ. Saving the cache was more important than the smiley.

 

If I had found the cache, one of those kids would have gone home with the nano in his pocket. The people and several restaurants (and metal benches) are just behind me in the photo.

 

Edited October 18, 2014 by wmpastor

[+lamoracke]

If a cache is in a lamp post in a muggle parking lot, unless there is someone in the car right next to it, I will just go after it as if no one is around. Some places are so high volume that if you stand there and try to wait out the entire world, you will draw more attention to yourself than if you just went for it. If its potentially a very hard hide or not obvious (like under a picnic table and folks are eating there) I won't do that. However, if its an obvious lamp post, I will just go right to it.

 

Just one example and its not a hard fast rule. I have skipped caches in my day, I have waited out people or came back to spots but if you put one in a lamp post, I am not going to be stealthy about it.

[+T.D.M.22]

Perhaps in some places people are decent enough not to take what isn't theirs. The rest of us can only dream.

[+Wagonmaker]

Stealth is very important for the integrity of the cache - but one way to be stealthy, that I have found to be quite effective, is confidence. Go into an area looking like you are supposed to be there, and looking like what you are doing is completely normal and mundane, and most people won't give you more than a passing glance. They'll assume you know what you're doing, and have every right to be doing what you are doing (which, really, is perfectly true), because you don't look shifty or suspicious while you're doing it.

 

This doesn't work in all situations, and can fall apart if you don't find it pretty quickly, but I have found it shields me in alot of situations.

[+wmpastor]

Stealth is very important for the integrity of the cache - but one way to be stealthy, that I have found to be quite effective, is confidence. Go into an area looking like you are supposed to be there, and looking like what you are doing is completely normal and mundane, and most people won't give you more than a passing glance. They'll assume you know what you're doing, and have every right to be doing what you are doing (which, really, is perfectly true), because you don't look shifty or suspicious while you're doing it.

 

This doesn't work in all situations, and can fall apart if you don't find it pretty quickly, but I have found it shields me in alot of situations.

Very true. Amateur stealthiness looks very suspicious. The confident look is effective in some situations, and sometimes notes, papers, etc. add to the "naturalness" (eg, looks like city contractor is just checking that equipment).

[+BCandMsKitty]

I don't have any comment about how things are done in the OP's country, but for me, when I see a cache that is hidden in an obviously busy spot, and even with the admonition on the cache page "Stealth Required" I will almost always just keep on walking, or driving. Having to search for a cache that is deliberately hidden in a congested spot is not fun for me! And I don't post a DNF either!

[nonaeroterraqueous]

Just one example and its not a hard fast rule. I have skipped caches in my day, I have waited out people or came back to spots but if you put one in a lamp post, I am not going to be stealthy about it.

 

It's funny that you mention lamp post caches, because I don't think there are any such caches in the OP's area.

[Alvater]

I do not know how often I have failed being stealthy but at least once. I had tried to find a cache but could not and eventually dropped the act hoping that the drivers would be so concentrated in their driving they would not notice me. The next day a friend asked what on earth I was doing there.

 

My standard disguise is dog-walker. Then I pretend my dog is sniffing something and I look around in a bored way. Once I picked up a cache pretending I was scoping poop. But well, I am not a good actress. My other role is 'the weird girl from the yellow house'. I walk around the place looking like a fool.

 

Caches on busy spots are my nightmare. Especially if they are not 'walk'n grab'. One cache had a guide how to log it undiscovered and thus I was able to find it. I had tried similar disguise at the cache in the first paragraph but it did not work in a less-attractive environment and I could not find it. I usually look at street view where I am going and plan how I can check the most obvious hiding places. I have only few muggle frequent area finds and most of them are done when normal people sleep and the one with that user guide in broad daylight.

[+Team Microdot]

I don't have any comment about how things are done in the OP's country, but for me, when I see a cache that is hidden in an obviously busy spot, and even with the admonition on the cache page "Stealth Required" I will almost always just keep on walking, or driving. Having to search for a cache that is deliberately hidden in a congested spot is not fun for me! And I don't post a DNF either!

 

^^This - except for the DNF - I tend to post one and explain that I love stealth caches - when stealth = being able to linger somewhere I would normally be, somewhere that doesn't make people suspect I'm up to no good and the actual stealth element is in retrieving, signing and replacing the cache without arousing a shred of suspicion from the people I might be surrounded by.

 

One such cache I remember was in the middle of the city of Manchester - surrounded by dozens of people. Excellent coords and hint meant that I could work out precisely where the cache was with a simple walk-by and then I was able to confidently swoop in, subtly grab it and do the admin while 'texting' on my phone, and then sneak it back. Not one single muggle as much as batted an eyelid. The whole process took about 15 minutes and I really enjoyed it

[team tisri]

If a cache is in a lamp post in a muggle parking lot, unless there is someone in the car right next to it, I will just go after it as if no one is around. Some places are so high volume that if you stand there and try to wait out the entire world, you will draw more attention to yourself than if you just went for it. If its potentially a very hard hide or not obvious (like under a picnic table and folks are eating there) I won't do that. However, if its an obvious lamp post, I will just go right to it.

 

Just one example and its not a hard fast rule. I have skipped caches in my day, I have waited out people or came back to spots but if you put one in a lamp post, I am not going to be stealthy about it.

 

I think this is often true. Someone standing around trying to look inconspicuous often succeeds in doing little beyond looking very conspicuous.

 

I remember one time I was looking for a cache in the middle of a busy roundabout. So to "blend in" I put on a yellow hi-vis vest, much like an official/inspector/worker would wear, found the cache, took off the hi-vis vest, and went on my way. Sometimes it's interesting how making yourself more visible makes you less visible.

 

I also think a lot of the time we're worried that people are going to think we're up to no good when in fact they really couldn't care less. We don't walk around closely scrutinising what everyone else is doing, and yet we assume everyone else is watching us very closely.

[Luckless]

I know that I tend to appear more suspicious when I'm caching alone in a high muggle area than when I have a friend with me. Then we're just two people being crazy.

[+-CJ-]

We rarely have a chance to check how effective we were while being stealthy. If even some cache was muggled next day after me one cannot be 100% certain that I was the troublemaker. I really don't think that we may judge on "amateur" or "pro" stealthiness (unless someone owns a Qualified Stealth Consultant certificate indeed). These opinions (including mine) are mostly theoretical.

 

Anyway, in my examples cachers didn't even try to be stealthy. They acted like they were invisible.

 

Go into an area looking like you are supposed to be there, and looking like what you are doing is completely normal and mundane, and most people won't give you more than a passing glance. They'll assume you know what you're doing

 

I watched some seekers mentioned in the first post (and others) from a distance and can say their actions looked rather strange. Perhaps they followed the idea quoted above. They were sure that if they act like that nothing bad would happen. Sadly, those workers left their places to find out what was going on. And people who were sitting lazily on a bench also looked intrigued.

 

It could probably be a cultural issue. Perhaps this approach works in cultures with high respect to other person's privacy and individuality. In communities where these traditions are weak people may pay more attention to those who are different. Imagine you have your hair coloured orange. In one country people will just pass by (assuming it's your hair and you chose the colour, nothing special about it), in other country they will smile to you and remember Milla Jovovich, and in some region you could get a whole village to gather around you and stare at your unbelievable hair. Same with geocaching. Say, there's a building, windows, ground floor, people outside of it. One gentleman is enjoying his cigarette, two kids are talking to each other, a girl is chatting on her iPhone, a young man with flowers in his hand is looking at his wristwatch - he's waiting for his sweetheart who's late. Among them walks a middle-aged bearded man in a Gore-Tex parka with a backpack and a camera looking carefully under every windowsill, one by one, examining them (not so clean) with his hands. I can imagine that in some cultures it's common and no one pays attention but if you ask me "Who looks unusually and attracts attention in this company?" my answer will be obvious.

 

One of the reasons to start this thread was to find out if it was the case. If it's a cultural issue then we (COs here) could probably softly remind cache seekers that their tactics isn't that perfect here. If it's all about them ignoring possible damage to the cache then it's different.

 

I personally would agree with the "confidence" idea with an addon: one should act like other people in the area.

 

It's funny that you mention lamp post caches, because I don't think there are any such caches in the OP's area.

 

True. Lamp posts don't have that skirts in our country.

[+GeoBain]

I roll up and fall out of my wheelchair. While I'm feigning a seizure I reach up and grab the cache.

 

No one is the wiser.

[+dprovan]

I don't have any comment about how things are done in the OP's country, but for me, when I see a cache that is hidden in an obviously busy spot, and even with the admonition on the cache page "Stealth Required" I will almost always just keep on walking, or driving. Having to search for a cache that is deliberately hidden in a congested spot is not fun for me! And I don't post a DNF either!

I don't call attention to myself, so I avoid the pitfalls the OP is talking about, and in that sense I'm stealthy. But for caches such as you mention, where even stealth will not be effective, I figure the CO knows what he's doing, so I just look. If the lamp skirt screeches in full view of at least a dozen shoppers going in and out of the nearby store, I assume the CO took that into account and is prepared to have the cache muggled from time to time. I try to be casual, but I don't consider it my fault if it turns out there's no way to be casual.

[+-CJ-]

I cannot say anything about LPCs because I've got zero experience with them.

 

But for caches such as you mention, where even stealth will not be effective, I figure the CO knows what he's doing, so I just look... CO took that into account and is prepared to have the cache muggled from time to time...

 

You say that the CO should restore the cache regularly if you believe that stealth is not effective. Every other person can draw the line where he/she thinks it must be. Some people may think that all caches near shops are behind the line - stealth cannot be applied effectively, so just go and grab them. Some will probably think that all caches in busy areas are of this kind. For each cache there will be seekers who can say: "The CO must take into account that we just look without trying to be stealthy. This is not our responsibility. He must be prepared to replace the cache again and again".

 

If this is the reason for acting like being invisible (in my examples) it's not an issue of cultural differencies.

Edited October 19, 2014 by -CJ-

[+cheech gang]

I remember hunting for a cache next to St. Basil's in Red Square. I was quite nervous, in a location that would not have bothered me at all at home. I had wished I was invisible. Definitely a cultural thing.

[+TeamRabbitRun]

<...>

I remember one time I was looking for a cache in the middle of a busy roundabout. So to "blend in" I put on a yellow hi-vis vest, much like an official/inspector/worker would wear, found the cache, took off the hi-vis vest, and went on my way. Sometimes it's interesting how making yourself more visible makes you less visible.

<...>

 

I once thought the vest&hardhat idea was good, but have since changed my mind. See this: http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=313946&view=findpost&p=5282077

[+-CJ-]

I remember hunting for a cache next to St. Basil's in Red Square. I was quite nervous

 

Why?

[+dprovan]

You say that the CO should restore the cache regularly if you believe that stealth is not effective. Every other person can draw the line where he/she thinks it must be. Some people may think that all caches near shops are behind the line - stealth cannot be applied effectively, so just go and grab them. Some will probably think that all caches in busy areas are of this kind. For each cache there will be seekers who can say: "The CO must take into account that we just look without trying to be stealthy. This is not our responsibility. He must be prepared to replace the cache again and again".

I tried to make this clear, but obviously I failed: I apply the same amount of stealth regardless of the situation. What I don't do it apply some kind of super additional stealth because the location is ridiculous. And more to the point in replying to the other comments, I rarely skip a cache because the location prevents stealth from being effective.

 

And I did not mean to say I require the CO to replace the cache. My intent was to point out that it was his choice to hide the cache there, so he's the one that can evaluate whether to replace a missing cache or decide whether the location wasn't such a great idea. If I were to skip a cache because the location is unsuitable for a cache, I am subverting the CO's decision to have people seek that cache at that location under those conditions. I understand people that would skip the cache because they'd be uncomfortable, but I'm not like that, and, besides, we're talking about seekers putting the cache at risk, not people exceeding their comfort levels.

[+-CJ-]

dprovan, thank you for clarification but sadly it didn't help much. I cannot understand even the very first point of your new message "I apply the same amount of stealth regardless of the situation"

[+wmpastor]

If I were to skip a cache because the location is unsuitable for a cache, I am subverting the CO's decision to have people seek that cache at that location under those conditions.

 

That's phrased in a noble way, but I hope at least you'd consider the circumstances at the moment.

 

Let's say I went to an isolated cache in the woods, & two hikers stopped for a break and were sitting nearby. Having come that far, I wouldn't just go home, but i'd probably walk around and observe nature for a few minutes until they went on their way. (I *might* talk to them about caching if the vibes were right.)

 

A urban/suburban cache that i'll pass again in a few days? If there's a group at GZ I'll look another day - no biggie.

[+jellis]

I still wonder why cachers put them right in front of places that have muggles most of the day and night like Starbucks, McDonalds or 24 hr cafes. Maybe in the back parking lot but not in front of the windows for everyone inside to see you.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

I still wonder why cachers put them right in front of places that have muggles most of the day and night like Starbucks, McDonalds or 24 hr cafes. Maybe in the back parking lot but not in front of the windows for everyone inside to see you.

 

There was one I just walked away when I saw the most likely hiding spot. From what I could tell it was most likely under or behind a newpaper box which was no more than 2 feet from a window for a restaurant with a table with people eating. It was close enough that I could see what they were having for lunch.

 

I found one that was just outside a Starbucks. It was also in area which gets a lot of foot and vehicle traffic. If that wasn't enough, the magnetic container was hidden such that it was difficult tor remove. It probably took 2-3 minutes for me to get the cache in hand after I located the container.

 

For a cache in a high muggle area, the ability to easily retrieve the container once one has located it makes a big difference. I have also found that it's typically easier to remain inconspicuous if there are a lot of muggles around than if it's just me and 1-2 other people in the area. I have found caches where there were 20-30 people within 20 feet of the cache that I probably wouldn't have tried if there was just 1-2 other people.

 

 

[+Harry Dolphin]

I cannot say anything about LPCs because I've got zero experience with them.

 

But for caches such as you mention, where even stealth will not be effective, I figure the CO knows what he's doing, so I just look... CO took that into account and is prepared to have the cache muggled from time to time...

 

You say that the CO should restore the cache regularly if you believe that stealth is not effective. Every other person can draw the line where he/she thinks it must be. Some people may think that all caches near shops are behind the line - stealth cannot be applied effectively, so just go and grab them. Some will probably think that all caches in busy areas are of this kind. For each cache there will be seekers who can say: "The CO must take into account that we just look without trying to be stealthy. This is not our responsibility. He must be prepared to replace the cache again and again".

 

If this is the reason for acting like being invisible (in my examples) it's not an issue of cultural differencies.

 

I think that the point is that if the cache is in a high muggle area, it is going to be muggled. And that's the CO's problem for hiding the cache there. Least common denominator: Not all cachers are going to pass by a cache with muggles nearby. It's a cache; I want to find it.

There are places where muggles will ignore what you are doing. Midtown Manhattan comes to mind. I dropped my backpack about a foot from the feet of the lady leaning against the sign wherein the cache was hidden. Came back, dropped the backpack and returned the cache. Nobody saw a thing. This is New York City! WalMart parking lot? Nobody pays attention to what you are doing. So, it can depend where the cacher is from.

The CO is expecting cachers not to seek the cache because there are muggles nearby? That's not the new IPhone Geocaching world! Perhaps the CO should not have the cache there?

[+dprovan]

If I were to skip a cache because the location is unsuitable for a cache, I am subverting the CO's decision to have people seek that cache at that location under those conditions.

That's phrased in a noble way, but I hope at least you'd consider the circumstances at the moment.

Yes, I was specifically speaking about the problem being the cache's location -- for example, there are always muggles watching GZ -- not incidental things that just happen to be going on around the cache at the moment I walk up to it. Of course I adjust to those.

[+dprovan]

dprovan, thank you for clarification but sadly it didn't help much. I cannot understand even the very first point of your new message "I apply the same amount of stealth regardless of the situation"

I thought you were suggesting that some people walk up to GZ, come to a subjective decision that the location is unreasonable, and use that as an excuse to be blatant about searching for the cache. I'll always do whatever I can to avoid detection no matter how I feel about the location, but I'm not going to worry about the case where doing whatever I can isn't going to be enough.

[+Kacher82]

If it's a situation where returning at a better time is a feasible option, that's probably what I'll do. Otherwise, it just depends how badly I want to avoid suspicion whether I'll attempt it or not. If I decide not to attempt it, I'll post a note on the cache page.

[+-CJ-]

This thread was about why cache seekers were not trying to be stealthy at caches where muggles are around. From my point of view this could be because of a) not knowing why and how to be stealthy (newbies), cultural issues or c) their voluntary choice.

 

With "a" it's a matter of general "geocaching education" and we could improve it in our local community by translating more materials explaining this technique, different ways of not attracting unnecessary attention to your actions, etc.

 

With "b" it's more difficult because traditions are usually deep and it takes more efforts to persuade people that their usual way of searching may not be perfect in other parts of the world: what is good in central London may be not the best idea near the Lenin's mausoleum in Moscow.

 

As for "c", this is the most difficult part since these experienced cachers have their own understanding of what is "effective stealth" or "ridiculous location" and these things can hardly be influenced by a guy like me with lesser experience and worse English.

Edited October 20, 2014 by -CJ-

[+J Grouchy]

I still wonder why cachers put them right in front of places that have muggles most of the day and night like Starbucks, McDonalds or 24 hr cafes. Maybe in the back parking lot but not in front of the windows for everyone inside to see you.

 

http://coord.info/GC2YRAA

 

This one is right by my office but it took me forever to grab it. It's located directly in front of a Starbucks, a movie theater and an Atlanta Bread Company...so basically there are maybe four hours between 1 am and 5 am when there are not a million people walking by or sitting in front of GZ. Somehow it still gets regular visits and to my knowledge it has never once been muggled since it was put in three years ago.

[+lorajane]

Some caches are poorly hidden, no wonder they go missing. We're I'm from the shires do regularly do a thorough cleaning and if it looks like rubbish well the bin it goes

[+NYPaddleCacher]

Some caches are poorly hidden, no wonder they go missing. We're I'm from the shires do regularly do a thorough cleaning and if it looks like rubbish well the bin it goes

 

For caches hidden areas with lots of muggles it needs to be hidden well enough that a muggle won't stumble upon it but not so difficult that it will take a long time for a geocacher to find it. A geocacher needs to locate the container, retrieve the container, then replace the container. If any of those things are difficult to do, the odds that a muggle will find it will go up probably more than if the container is not well hidden.

 

 

[team tisri]

<...>

I remember one time I was looking for a cache in the middle of a busy roundabout. So to "blend in" I put on a yellow hi-vis vest, much like an official/inspector/worker would wear, found the cache, took off the hi-vis vest, and went on my way. Sometimes it's interesting how making yourself more visible makes you less visible.

<...>

 

I once thought the vest&hardhat idea was good, but have since changed my mind. See this: http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=313946&view=findpost&p=5282077

 

The thing is there's no law against wearing a hi-vis vest. When I'm out on the bike (which I almost always was when caching) the obvious explanation is that I want to be visible so I don't get run over.

[team tisri]

I know that I tend to appear more suspicious when I'm caching alone in a high muggle area than when I have a friend with me. Then we're just two people being crazy.

 

This reminds me of a time I was trying to find a way to retrieve a film pot from under a park bench, in a busy park in central London, on a sunny Saturday afternoon.

 

What I did was duck behind the bench and start poking and tickling my wife through the slats of it. Of course she squealed and giggled, which drew attention. The people who turned to look saw a young couple (as we were back then!) fooling about and ignored us. Which meant I could reach under the bench without anyone thinking anything more of it.

[+narcissa]

If someone is going to insist on hiding a cache in a high-muggle area, it's simply not reasonable to expect cache finders to exercise "stealth" well enough to keep the cache from being noticed.

 

The reason we exercise "stealth" is to keep muggles from bothering us while we're caching, not to protect someone's ridiculous cache placement. If you need to have a cache in a lamppost in the town square, expect to replace it often.

[+-CJ-]

The reason we exercise "stealth" is to keep muggles from bothering us while we're caching, not to protect someone's ridiculous cache placement

 

Whom do you mean by "we" and "us"? I mean, did you include me in this "we"?

 

I would also like to know how you (and some other colleagues who seem to share your approach) distinguish between "ridiculous" and "non-ridiculous" caches? This is important to me. If my cache was muggled not because someone did his best to attract attention of a group of kids playing nearby but because the cache itself was ridiculous I wish I know the criteria.

 

If you need to have a cache in a lamppost in the town square, expect to replace it often.

 

(again) There are no lamppost caches around here.

Edited October 21, 2014 by -CJ-

[+Traditional Bill]

If you knowingly place a cache in an area where there is lots and lots of non geocaching foot traffic, you better believe that thing is going to go missing more frequently than a cache in a wooded, secluded area. I will normally be stealthy to an extent while searching for a cache of this nature, but it's a situational thing for me.

 

If a cache is placed on the property of a business, I will be stealthy amongst passer bys, but if employees can see me through the window, and that's all, well then I see no reason for stealth. Why? Because if the cache is in a parking lot on a business' property, I'm going to assume the CO has gotten permission from the business to place a cache there. If it turns out the business isn't aware of the cache, and it gets taken by the proprietors of the business because of "non stealthy" cachers, then I suppose the cache shouldn't have been in that location to begin with, right?

 

Now if the cache is off a walking trail and there's folks using the trail, I'll wait them out. I particularly enjoy using the direct method....for example....If somebody has parked their butt on a bench with a cache that I'd like to find, I'll sit right down next to them. Start itching my head a bit and say something like "shame about this lice going around, isn't it?" I find that removes folks from benches rather quickly [] Sometimes I'll just start ranting about random things to myself and pace the area. That tends to get rid of folks rather quickly as well.

[+narcissa]

I would also like to know how you (and some other colleagues who seem to share your approach) distinguish between "ridiculous" and "non-ridiculous" caches? This is important to me.

 

If you honestly have to ask, it's probably ridiculous.

[+dprovan]

I would also like to know how you (and some other colleagues who seem to share your approach) distinguish between "ridiculous" and "non-ridiculous" caches? This is important to me. If my cache was muggled not because someone did his best to attract attention of a group of kids playing nearby but because the cache itself was ridiculous I wish I know the criteria.

OK, I'll try one more time: in this context, "ridiculous" means "not retrievable without being detected, even with stealth." Despite my pleas the the contrary, you continue to speak as if reasonable cachers walk up to GZ and if they decide the hide is "ridiculous", they use no stealth. But being ridiculous isn't a decision made by seekers, it's just an observed fact: I am as stealthy as always, but I can see I'll likely be detected, anyway.

 

If you need to have a cache in a lamppost in the town square, expect to replace it often.

(again) There are no lamppost caches around here.

Then you're good!

 

No, seriously: I actually think your lack of LPCs is more important than you realize to your understanding of this point. LPCs really are the specific bad case most of us have in mind. To retrieve an LPC, you have to do something obvious that no one should be doing. They often make a terrible screeching noise, thus insuring that anyone within sight will turn to see what you're doing. And LPCs, by their very nature, cannot be seen until you do the deed, which is just generally a problem but even a more specific problem because it means that before you lift the LPC, you cannot tell which of the 4 sides it's going to be on, so you have to lift and look, you can't just lift, grab, and lower before everyone's turned their heads. (And don't get me started about the ones that are magnetically attached to the skirt, thus requiring that you reach in and feel all around for the cache.)

 

There really is no other kind of hide that has all of these problems even when it's placed in a dark corner of a deserted parking lot, but people love to hide them in the middle of heavily used parking lots. So that's why those of us familiar with them have no interest in taking responsibility for the CO's choice.

 

So I'm serious when I say that since you don't have them, you're probably not going to have this problem of normal retrieval putting the cache at risk. Besides, you probably wouldn't hide anything in a muggle prone area to begin with.

 

No, you just have to suffer inconsiderate tourists that put their fun above any consideration of risk. After all, they'll never be back there again, so they're not worried about whether the cache disappears. I don't really think there's anything cultural about that problem in the geocaching sense, it's just the way some tourists act regardless of whether they're geocaching. But it's still a good idea to bring it up and bash anyone that does it.

[+-CJ-]

being ridiculous isn't a decision made by seekers, it's just an observed fact: I am as stealthy as always, but I can see I'll likely be detected, anyway.

 

Let's put that ridiculous theme aside. In fact, it wasn't the topic I raised in this thread. In my examples (see above) people were not "stealthy as always" - they were not stealthy at all. And I was asking why.

 

since you don't have them, you're probably not going to have this problem of normal retrieval putting the cache at risk

 

I do have.

 

Besides, you probably wouldn't hide anything in a muggle prone area to begin with.

 

You're right. My first cache (placed in 2002) was deeply in woods and the first team which tried to get to it cursed me because they walked strictly following their GPS device and found themselves in a bog. No risk of muggles though.

 

you just have to suffer inconsiderate tourists that put their fun above any consideration of risk

 

They are obviously a problem, but in my initial post I excluded them and talked about experienced cachers.

 

Thank you for telling me about LPC caches. I can imagine how much trouble someone more persistent then me could have with them.

[team tisri]

The reason we exercise "stealth" is to keep muggles from bothering us while we're caching, not to protect someone's ridiculous cache placement

 

I would also like to know how you (and some other colleagues who seem to share your approach) distinguish between "ridiculous" and "non-ridiculous" caches? This is important to me. If my cache was muggled not because someone did his best to attract attention of a group of kids playing nearby but because the cache itself was ridiculous I wish I know the criteria.

 

One cache I found that I'd call ridiculous had the "stealth required" attribute set.

 

I'm about 6'4 and I had to reach high over my head to get at the cache. It was behind a sign, on a busy footpath next to a busy main road. Opposite the cache site was a bus stop where a bus stopped every 2-3 minutes, and next to the bus stop was a train station. The location was near a fairly busy junction, so finding a time when nobody was passing by during the day was all but impossible, and it's not an area I'd want to be hanging around in the dark.

 

I'm taller than probably 90% of other people and I struggled to reach it, and struggled even more to put it back. How anyone of average height was supposed to get at this cache remainsa mystery. It didn't last long before it got muggled, which really wasn't surprising.

[+-CJ-]

team tisri, thank you for your example. The narcissa's suggestion made me upset but now I see I'm not hopeless; at least, I own no caches like one described by you.

 

I would also add that none of the caches in my initial post were like that.

Edited October 21, 2014 by -CJ-

[+MountainWoods]

I have to admit that this thread has definitely gotten me thinking. My attitude in the past has always been based on something I learned many years ago: If you act like you know what you're doing, you can get by with a lot of things. (Good or bad, by the way.)

 

I still have that as an adage, but I'm reconsidering the use of that theorem for geocaching.

 

But first I'll digress. How did I arrive at that concept? Observation of human nature. Although it doesn't happen often, didja ever notice folks watching someone when they are acting suspicious? Of course they're going to. Didja ever notice how folks ignore someone walking right up to an electric box and opening it up? Oh, they may give a quick glance, but the first thought that comes to mind is that it is someone who is supposed to be doing whatever they are doing. Why? Because they don't look suspicious.

 

In my last year of high school a couple of my close friends and I decided to test this theory. We went back into the school after hours to do some minor mischief. We found lockers that the owners had neglected to lock, and we switched the entire contents of them. ('Twas interesting to watch what happened the next Monday...) During our escapade we were stopped by a teacher who asked what we were doing there. So we replied, "We're doing some vandalizing, of course!" Such an "obviously wrong" answer put the teacher off of his guard. "OK. Just don't do anything bad." (Too late! Though it wasn't really bad, since we hadn't stolen anything -- just caused consternation later on.)

 

Anyway, that's a long digression. You can usually get by with things, obviously not things like taking a 2x4 to someone's head in public!, but more subtle things, as long as you don't "give yourself away."

 

However, someone brought up the valid point that even if you ignore the muggles and just go for the cache without stealth, their human nature is likely to kick in and want to see "What was it that that guy who looked like he knew what he was doing, was doing?" (And add "Eh?" if you are from Canada.)

 

My innocent "go ahead and do it without looking suspicious" may cause the cache to be muggled by someone who (1) saw me, (2) got curious, (3) didn't know what geocaching was, and (4) ignored the labeling on the cache asking them to leave the cache alone and visit geocaching.com.

 

I would accidentally cause a cache to go missing by my no-stealth attitude. Just because I can get by without stealth, does not mean that I should. Something for me to think about.....

[+-CJ-]

Thanks a lot MountainWoods for the post.

 

Yes, sometimes it works great when "you act like you know what you're doing". When I organized one of our CITO events in 2010 I visited the place of the future event a couple of weeks before the date - just to see how much litter was there. I drove my SUV close to another tent and asked their inhabitants sternly: "Hello. Aren't you littering here?" Poor tourists were impressed by appearance of a big bearded man in camouflaged jacket and answered: "N-n-no, of course we aren't littering... We already packed all our litter to take it back with us... look, there's no litter around..." - "Well, well, - I replied after looking around, - good for you. Have a nice rest". They obviously took me for a forester or ecological policeman. And it worked perfectly because I got information quickly and was able to understand the situation with litter quite soon.

 

However, with geocaches it's different because someone's property and part of the geocaching sport is involved.

 

I cannot judge upon all countries but here "acting like you know what you're doing" can easily turn you into an object of attention.

[team tisri]

team tisri, thank you for your example. The narcissa's suggestion made me upset but now I see I'm not hopeless; at least, I own no caches like one described by you.

 

I think the "stealth" attribute is useful when it's used sensibly. If an area is of particular interest it may be that a little discretion goes a long way in preserving the cache, but it does seem some people say "stealth required" when what they should be saying is "this is a stupid cache".

 

I have to admit that this thread has definitely gotten me thinking. My attitude in the past has always been based on something I learned many years ago: If you act like you know what you're doing, you can get by with a lot of things. (Good or bad, by the way.)

 

I still remember the time I walked through an extensive area of a particular business that was off limits. I'd missed the "staff only" sign as I entered, and walked through unchallenged by anyone. It was only when I realised I'd come out of a door that said "private" on the other side (i.e. I'd just left the private area) that I realised what I'd done. At the time I was in a park, in full business dress, and walking purposefully (given I didn't know I was in a private area) so presumably anyone who saw me figured I was supposed to be there and didn't challenge me.

[cezanne]

 

you just have to suffer inconsiderate tourists that put their fun above any consideration of risk

 

They are obviously a problem, but in my initial post I excluded them and talked about experienced cachers.

 

I'm confused. How is tourist a contradiction to experienced cacher?

Tourists often are less patient, they want to proceed and they typically do not have time to return.

I'd strongly recomment to mention in cache descriptions that on average one has to expect considerable waiting times if this applies to a cache.

 

 

Thank you for telling me about LPC caches. I can imagine how much trouble someone more persistent then me could have with them.

 

I would not say that there is something very special about LPC caches. There are so many urban caches out there that cannot be logged in a stealthy way. A LPC on a parking lot is less problematic than a small hard to find cache in a small courtyard which is perfectly visible all the houses around and the nearby garden area.

Obviously if cachers find and log many such caches, they become less sensitive over time to not attracting attention.

In most countries with high cache density there is meanwhile a considerable portion of caches which cannot be logged in a stealthy way and that is certainly part of the problem.

 

I noticed considerable regional differences on whether a certain behaviour attracts attention or causes issues.

For example, what perfectly works well in the inner districts of Vienna (where there are lots of people who behave strangely who are not geocachers) does not work at all in a smaller village in my home region or not even in my home town. I'm sure that in your country there are additional aspects to be taken into account which however hardly anyone from a completely different area will be able to take into account fully.

 

For example, if a lone adult (even worse than it's a man and not a woman) without children would try out some playing equipment on a playing ground in Vienna, this

would hardly attract any special attention. Suppose the same happens in a small village in the country side or somewhere in the US. The reactions would be very different.

 

In small villages in my area one could already attract attention by walking up and down the same road twice. SOmewhere in a larger city no one would even take notice of this and certainly not get suspicious and think that maybe someone has something criminal in mind.

 

 

Cezanne

[+AnnaMoritz]

For me there are caches at crowded places where it is possible to retrieve them and putting them back in front of 50 tourists taking photos of the object like Cumil :: Man at work without a single person noticing it if you do it in a clever manner.

 

Then there are caches where you have to do something unmissable in front of 200 persons at day and at least 10 persons in the middle of the night, for example here Alt-Wiener Spaziergang: vom Stephansplatz zur Oper My reach is more than the 2m suggested in the hint section, but I had to jump for putting in back in place. Here the best strategy is approaching the spot, not looking too obviously whether others may look what you are doing, and if nobody is too interested in what you are doing, grab it, take the container with you, log, come back, wait for the moment people start crossing the road and place it back and move on as naturally as possible. The owner knows that this one will go missing from time to time, but the fun of the daring hideout is worth risking loosing a container from time to time. The thing is very conspicuous and can be seen from far away even without being retrieved by a geocacher and surprisingly on average survives months and about 190 cachers before getting lost. Other containers of caches here where no people are watching you also often don't last more than 190 cachers in a row.

 

Then there are caches where you have to come twice or even more times to be able to retrieve it unseen, but with enough patience it is possible. Here it depends more on the will of the visitors if the cache gets endangered.

 

Then there are caches on badly chosen places where I take a short look (if not already seen on the map or satellite image) and decide, no, not worth looking where the thing is and how to retrieve it safely and I move on, I don't need every cache. For these caches my sympathy is very limited if 'Stealth required' is a synonym for stupidly and inconsiderate placed caches when they get lost. Also for caches in better neighbourhoods with 5 surveillance cameras for each property or very rural ones where every non-local entering the street is perceived as a potential intruder 'Stealth required' is somewhat ridiculous as you as a stranger never will blend in (no matter whether you look like other people there) and you get stared at and will be watched. I try to avoid such areas anyway.

 

Until now I haven't been caching in places where paranoia and surveillance govern all public spaces or at exotic places where I don't blend in, but I suppose I would try to stick to virtuals and earthcaches if available.

 

I've seen quite a few cachers behaving like bulls in a china shop, mostly in groups or prolific power cachers. You can't educate them. They can't be bothered with reading descriptions or having consideration for anything inhibiting like having to wait or come another time in order not to endanger a cache, closing containers correctly, placing back containers in the right spot and putting back camouflage aside from other things like cultural aspects.

 

Some geocachers dress like camouflaged combatants equipped with strange gear wherever they go, in my country this is very eye-catching even for the most unobservant resident or passer-by and draws attention to what they are doing.

 

Nevertheless you can try to point out to visiting tourists what they should consider when looking for caches in your country.

[+-CJ-]

you can try to point out to visiting tourists what they should consider when looking for caches in your country

 

This is why I opened this thread. The general idea is to choose better way of acting. If I see that someone can't be educated (like in your example) then I probably should not waste my time.

 

The best way of education would probably be to own caches. When I own say 20 physical caches and have to look after them I definitely won't behave "like a bull in a china shop" with caches belonging to other players.

[+narcissa]

Ultimately, you just can't control how others are going to act around your cache.

 

Some people will be very careful.

 

Some people will be nervous and end up looking suspicious as they try to be "stealthy."

 

Some people will walk up to the cache with confidence, in plain sight, and not arouse suspicion because it looks like they are supposed to be there.

 

Some people will arrive at the GZ in a large group travelling in three cars, swarm the cache site, and then leave again as quickly as they came.

 

When you place a cache, expect that there will be coming and going, and that muggles will notice despite any attempts at "stealth." Expect that a cache in a high muggle area will be compromised and stolen, repeatedly. If you don't like that, find a better spot.

Edited October 22, 2014 by narcissa