Scouter/Scouting owned caches?

October 7, 2014

Because with Scouts (not so much cubs) if they are going for a badge it Is up to the scout to find out about rules, guidelines etc as a part of getting the badge.

Sadly, here in Australia and I suspect America would be worse, the onus has been taken off the scout and many leaders simply walk them through the badgework with a minimum of effort on both sides rather than actually challenging the scout.

*** Just had a look at the website that lists all of the American badges and it appears to me that it is simply about churning out badges. There is a lot that are extremely specific and many that seem to overlap with others. This sort of attitude is always going to cause issues and to be honest, short of an award scheme overhaul your best hope is that the badge is removed from the scheme. ***

I for one would love to see a complete overhaul of the MB and advancement system we use. The rank system is still pretty solid IMO, but some of the MBs required need to either go away or have more freedom for the counselors to give a no/no-go.

October 7, 2014

I've found a number of good ones, but in most cases they were owned by a Geocacher who is also active in scouts/guides. One example GC2Y9BC Peacock's Centenary Box.

I have found the same with hides by a school class. Those where the teacher is an active geocacher get maintained. Those where the teacher isn't an active geocacher (but did a hide with the class as it sounded like a good idea) tend to lack maintenance.

So it's not just the young people who lose interest.

And, I believe, that's where the biggest problem lies. Urging older Boy Scouts to choose an option other than hide a cache is easy. Getting the adult "leaders" to follow through and not just leave trash behind is the challenge.

October 7, 2014

It's not all bad:

Anyone else have examples of well-maintained Scouting caches?

My first exposure to geocaching, years ago, was by redhedmary. A long time Scouter and veteran geocacher. Mary stands apart as a shining example of how our hobby and Scouting should interact.

The 100th anniversary of the BSA in 2010 saw some Scouting related caches that are well worth the time and effort.

GRFC Treasures

I've enjoyed the few redhedmary caches I've found.

1.8k · October 7, 2014

Hi,

i am baaaaaack. I have to side with the OP

"Fourth, I started this thread because, to be honest, I'm rather embarrassed by the impression left by the local Scout themed caches near me. More than embarrassed really, near angered and definitely ashamed. I've spent nine years teaching boys to respect their environment. To see other leaders do what amounts to throwing trash out for others to find and police upsets me."

We as Scouts have big boots to fill and we need to fill them. If you wish to be seen as an example ... be that example.

Slightly off topic ... how about the Scout near Mundelein, Ill. who contrived to have perfectly good caches in a forest preserve archived so he could place his own caches and wove it around some half baked Eagle Scout Service Project (it actually flew).

My sources tell me the Geo-Litter has really torqued off the Geocaching community.

On the periphery, I feel that the advancement chair should have beat this one down with a HUGE STICK.

Topic turned back to the main track

Edited October 7, 2014 by humboldt flier

1.8k · October 7, 2014

Because with Scouts (not so much cubs) if they are going for a badge it Is up to the scout to find out about rules, guidelines etc as a part of getting the badge.

Sadly, here in Australia and I suspect America would be worse, the onus has been taken off the scout and many leaders simply walk them through the badgework with a minimum of effort on both sides rather than actually challenging the scout.

*** Just had a look at the website that lists all of the American badges and it appears to me that it is simply about churning out badges. There is a lot that are extremely specific and many that seem to overlap with others. This sort of attitude is always going to cause issues and to be honest, short of an award scheme overhaul your best hope is that the badge is removed from the scheme. ***

I for one would love to see a complete overhaul of the MB and advancement system we use. The rank system is still pretty solid IMO, but some of the MBs required need to either go away or have more freedom for the counselors to give a no/no-go.

Oooooooooooo have I ever gotten my knuckles rapped by advancement chairs, DE's and Cncl. Execs for comments like that last one ...

1.8k · October 7, 2014

To OP:

We probably need to chat off line sometime. Rattle my cage through my profile as your time permits.

7.5k · October 7, 2014

Anyone else have examples of well-maintained Scouting caches?

There's a series in Danville, CA, prefixed T226 for Troop 226. As an example, one is a puzzle cache: T226- Merit Badges. The trick here is that they were planted for a troop meeting to teach geocaching, but they were actually planted and maintained by a very experienced CO, so they aren't really an example of what we're talking about.

A second example is Troop 948 Black Diamond which popped up a few years ago and looked like a classic scout cache: CO with no finds and only this one hide, container was a disposable sandwich box that was almost cracked already when I found it a couple days after it was published, impossible to grab without compromising a collapsing hillside. I thought it would last a week, but the one thing it had going for it is maintenance, so it was moved to a better location and the container was swapped out, and now it's a decent cache coming up on 4 years active. The owner still doesn't have any finds, though, and the troop never hid a second cache. So it's an example of a well-maintained scouting cache, but I don't think it's an argument for scouting caches.

I can come up with a couple more examples...perhaps...but none of them involve a merit badge, and I don't think that's a coincidence.

October 8, 2014

To OP:

We probably need to chat off line sometime. Rattle my cage through my profile as your time permits.

Am I being called into the Principal's office?

October 8, 2014

Having been in both Scouts and Guides I agree the change needs to come from the top down in the organizations.

A local district commissioner and prolific cacher has a hide that I'm still not sure how it passed approval. If the "teachers" don't follow rules, how will kids learn.

1.6k · October 8, 2014

OMHO most of these issues are not ulike any othere inexperienced cacher that plax3es a cache and then looses inteest in caching. Not unique to scouting.

2.6k · October 8, 2014

OMHO most of these issues are not ulike any othere inexperienced cacher that plax3es a cache and then looses inteest in caching. Not unique to scouting.

I agree that the same issues happen when any new cacher loses interest.

However, what is a bit unique to scouting is this: With most new cachers, they find out about the game somehow, they find some caches, they think "this is fun". Then they decide to hide their own. Some of them continue to be active cachers for a long time. For others it is a passing fad and they quickly drop out (leaving the maintenance issues). (For this reason there have been many threads in the past about requiring a certain amount of time/finds/training before hiding).

With scouting, as I understand it, the scout sees this as an option for a badge. Now they might think "this sounds cool"... but it seems different than the case above, where someone happens into the game and likes it. I'm sure there are cases where a scout gets introduced via a badge, and becomes a long term geocacher. But generally I think the motivation is getting the badge, so once that happens the maintenance issues are more likely.

Edited October 8, 2014 by redsox_mark

7.5k · October 8, 2014

OMHO most of these issues are not ulike any othere inexperienced cacher that plax3es a cache and then looses inteest in caching. Not unique to scouting.

I hesitate to try to improve on redsox_mark response, but it boils down this: the scout is motivated by an external reward not related to geocaching. Inexperienced cachers can make the same mistakes, yes, but at least their only motive is to put out a cache for other people to find. A scout doesn't necessarily have even that motive. I think this thread is largely focused on that difference.

And it's not limited to merit badges. For example, thinking it's a good team building activity is a similar non-geocaching motive.

To be fair, I want to mention that I've also seen some 4-H projects set geocaches. In my experience, being projects rather than merit badges, the basic hides and containers are usually decent, but they do tend to suffer the same problem of the kids moving on and the geocaches soon being forgotten.

October 8, 2014

I knida let this thread slip slightly OT when the issue of Merit Badges was introduced. It was meant more as a discussion of those types of "project caches" that dprovan mentioned above. I know how I can reach the local Scout Leaders local to me. How can we otherwise reach those that place one-time project caches for classroom/group/Den/Pack/Troop, etc. activities? Having them interested in the hobby is great . Now how to we positively reach out to them to improve the image and impact they have on the hobby?

I for one, may organize an event with personal invitations sent to these folks.

3.7k · October 8, 2014

OMHO most of these issues are not ulike any othere inexperienced cacher that plax3es a cache and then looses inteest in caching. Not unique to scouting.

I agree. The fundamental problem is having people who are not that invested in the game placing caches.

It's not just a scouting thing.

There should be a 3 month waiting period (after registering) before people are allowed to place caches. This won't solve every problem, but will help.

2.7k · October 9, 2014

Today I found three 'Scout caches'....all three were well done, stocked with swag, and great containers (2 ammo cans, 1 Official Groundspeak LnL).

I have found at least a dozen 'Scout caches' in recent memory, and have yet to come across one that was not well maintained.

October 9, 2014

Inexperienced cachers can make the same mistakes, yes, but at least their only motive is to put out a cache for other people to find. A scout doesn't necessarily have even that motive. I think this thread is largely focused on that difference.

This.

There should be a 3 month waiting period (after registering) before people are allowed to place caches. This won't solve every problem, but will help.

I don't think we should prohibit anyone to hide a cache just because of their lack of experience. Rather, I think no one should encourage a cacher to hide a cache for any rewards, like for a merit badge or for a challenge cache.

1.4k · October 9, 2014

I have seen a few...well very few, but some Scout caches that were maintained. So to block them all would also probably be unfair to some. I would say that most are not.

October 9, 2014

There should be a 3 month waiting period (after registering) before people are allowed to place caches. This won't solve every problem, but will help.

I don't think we should prohibit anyone to hide a cache just because of their lack of experience. Rather, I think no one should encourage a cacher to hide a cache for any rewards, like for a merit badge or for a challenge cache.

Off-topic response - it's not about lack of experience, it's about commitment. If caches are required to be in place for at least three months, then I don't think it unreasonable for someone to first prove they, too, will stick around for at least three months.

Now back to the Scout Cacher chatter:

May I suggest another issue with introducing Scouts and other young groups to caching? I would rather their leaders take them way out in the woods to find caches because when they find caches in their local park or trail, bad things happen to those caches. The scouts may be responsible cachers but they are also kids and they can't help telling their other kid friends about it, and maybe showing off the location of these caches on the way home from school or what-have-you. Then those other kids tell more friends and the next thing you know trackables and swag are stolen and nastygrams are written in the log book. Leaving something in any cache within a few blocks of a middle school around here is a risky proposition.

3.7k · October 9, 2014

There should be a 3 month waiting period (after registering) before people are allowed to place caches. This won't solve every problem, but will help.

I don't think we should prohibit anyone to hide a cache just because of their lack of experience. Rather, I think no one should encourage a cacher to hide a cache for any rewards, like for a merit badge or for a challenge cache.

Off-topic response - it's not about lack of experience, it's about commitment. If caches are required to be in place for at least three months, then I don't think it unreasonable for someone to first prove they, too, will stick around for at least three months.

Now back to the Scout Cacher chatter:

Agreed. It's about commitment. I have seen way too many newbie hides published and abandoned shortly after, leaving a mess for everyone when they go missing or unmaintained. Plus all the problems just getting them published which you don't see. What a waste of volunteer time with little benefit to the kids, I suspect. :unsure:

And, yeah, I was still talking about the Scouts. A general 'waiting period' of 3 months after account creation would solve alot of problems without singling out a particular group.

3.7k · October 9, 2014

May I suggest another issue with introducing Scouts and other young groups to caching? I would rather their leaders take them way out in the woods to find caches because when they find caches in their local park or trail, bad things happen to those caches. The scouts may be responsible cachers but they are also kids and they can't help telling their other kid friends about it, and maybe showing off the location of these caches on the way home from school or what-have-you. Then those other kids tell more friends and the next thing you know trackables and swag are stolen and nastygrams are written in the log book. Leaving something in any cache within a few blocks of a middle school around here is a risky proposition.

Agreed. Or better yet they can just make some temporary caches for the kids to find. Let's face it, unless the leaders visit the caches ahead of time, there is no guarantee of quality.

I put on an activity for the local Girl Guides here. We did a presentation on geocaching, then gave the girls GPSrs and had them go find a bunch of temporary caches. The caches were of different shapes and sizes and the girls were taught how to trade fairly. The learned alot and had alot of fun, no need to go out and hide any caches or put any existing caches in jeopardy.

If the girls were interested in doing more, they were certainly free to go home and tell their parents about it.

1.5k · October 9, 2014

Today I found three 'Scout caches'....all three were well done, stocked with swag, and great containers (2 ammo cans, 1 Official Groundspeak LnL).
I have found at least a dozen 'Scout caches' in recent memory, and have yet to come across one that was not well maintained.

Hello K13, I looked at your recent finds. The 2 obvious "scout" caches you found yesterday were not of that type, they are caches with a scouting theme, hidden by adults. Not by a boy motivated to get a badge.

3.2k · December 5, 2016

Just did another "great" example of a unmaintained water filled Scout cache with the added twist of 50-60 ft coordinate error. Thankfully someone added a huge spoiler so it can be found.

December 5, 2016

As a long time Scouter, I'm troubled by the caches I find that are owned by Cub Scout Pack ###, or BSA Troop ####. We strive to teach these young lads the principles of our Outdoor Code and Leave No Trace.

Nearly every cache I've found that is somehow connected to a local Scouter, Pack, or Troop is abandoned or in a gross state of disrepair. This reflects poorly on us as geocachers and as Scouts and Scouters at the local level, very possibly hurting our reputations.

I haven't as of yet posted any NA or NM logs on certain local caches as the specific cache that initially prompted my concern I DNF'd. The cache itself may be fine, but the area was trash ridden and a poor reflection on us all.

I am in a unique position to try to reach these people as part of our District committee. I'll be bringing this issue up at our monthly Roundtable meetings/trainings and hope to get a couple other reputable veteran cacher/Scouters involved in an initiative to clean up abandoned Scouter owned caches.

So..., thoughts??

I guess I am one of the very few. I cache under my pack's account and have 17 placed caches. Once a month, I make a trek out to each cache to do maintenance except one (THAT one is in my front yard, so I can go out every 10 minutes if I wanted to).

I do teach the boys to leave what they find when we cache as a pack at a campout. I teach them the principles of LNT and TL (now Outdoor Ethics) as we do so.

If that's the case, I am proud to be one of the few!

YIS

J. Broyles

Cubmaster Assistant Scoutmaster Roundtable Commissioner Geocaching MB Counselor

Pack 208 Troop 200 Heartland District

December 7, 2016

I would suggest that if you come across a Scout cache or a school project cache that is in bad shape and appears to be abandoned, why not Needs Archived and haul the trash out of the location?

I agree with most; maybe geocaching for scouts isn't the best thing for them. Changes need to come from their end.

5.7k · December 14, 2016

why not Needs Archived and haul the trash out of the location?

A good way to handle it, assuming that the cache is archived by the owner or a reviewer between those two steps. Removing the trashed cache before it's archived would be getting ahead of things.

This does invite the standard forum response that "wait, the cache might be listed on another geocaching service," to which I'd say, then the owner should so state on their cache page to avoid confusion.

December 14, 2016

I completely agree. Besides that, I feel it's a bit strange that it could even technically violate the Terms of Use if my interpretation is correct.

Our services are not targeted towards, nor intended for use by, anyone under the age of 13. If you are under the age of 13, you are not permitted to use our services

14k · December 14, 2016

why not Needs Archived and haul the trash out of the location?

A good way to handle it, assuming that the cache is archived by the owner or a reviewer between those two steps. Removing the trashed cache before it's archived would be getting ahead of things.

This does invite the standard forum response that "wait, the cache might be listed on another geocaching service," to which I'd say, then the owner should so state on their cache page to avoid confusion.

Would GS allow a cache to be published if the listing specifically mentioned a competing geocaching service?

7.8k · December 14, 2016

why not Needs Archived and haul the trash out of the location?

A good way to handle it, assuming that the cache is archived by the owner or a reviewer between those two steps. Removing the trashed cache before it's archived would be getting ahead of things.

This does invite the standard forum response that "wait, the cache might be listed on another geocaching service," to which I'd say, then the owner should so state on their cache page to avoid confusion.

Would GS allow a cache to be published if the listing specifically mentioned a competing geocaching service?

Probably not, and that's likely why you don't see this kind of thing already. However, mentioning that it's cross-listed without specifically naming where could fall into a grey area. Not sure which way TPTB would go with that.

5.7k · December 14, 2016

why not Needs Archived and haul the trash out of the location?

A good way to handle it, assuming that the cache is archived by the owner or a reviewer between those two steps. Removing the trashed cache before it's archived would be getting ahead of things.

This does invite the standard forum response that "wait, the cache might be listed on another geocaching service," to which I'd say, then the owner should so state on their cache page to avoid confusion.

Would GS allow a cache to be published if the listing specifically mentioned a competing geocaching service?

Hopefully not. :anibad:

December 14, 2016

why not Needs Archived and haul the trash out of the location?

A good way to handle it, assuming that the cache is archived by the owner or a reviewer between those two steps. Removing the trashed cache before it's archived would be getting ahead of things.

This does invite the standard forum response that "wait, the cache might be listed on another geocaching service," to which I'd say, then the owner should so state on their cache page to avoid confusion.

Would GS allow a cache to be published if the listing specifically mentioned a competing geocaching service?

Hopefully not.

Even if they allowed it (and I agree Manville Possum, hopefully not), I'll bet I'm not alone in saying that I'm not going to go logging into a bunch of sites I don't use, just to post a NM or NA on a cache. I only care about what's on the listing service I am using.

7.3k · December 15, 2016

Would GS allow a cache to be published if the listing specifically mentioned a competing geocaching service?

No. See commercial guideline, point 5, naming businesses.

"On another listing service" is irrelevant to caches in this thread, Scouter owned caches, as the BSA badge requirement is specific to having the cache listed on Geocaching.com.

I'd be stunned if any have ever been listed on another service; possibly on the now defunct Garmin site, when people who didn't own listings could copy them over to that site and did, because of the incentives for adding listings there.

6.8k · December 15, 2016

Would GS allow a cache to be published if the listing specifically mentioned a competing geocaching service?

No. See commercial guideline, point 5, naming businesses.

There are geocaching services which are not commercial and no businesses.

21.9k · December 15, 2016

"On another listing service" is irrelevant to caches in this thread, Scouter owned caches, as the BSA badge requirement is specific to having the cache listed on Geocaching.com.

That's right - thanks! Let's all get back to discussing scout cache placements.

7.4k · December 15, 2016

If you decide to take someone's cache, make sure you write a very clear log entry in case the owner wants his/her stuff back. You just never know.

5.7k · December 15, 2016

"On another listing service" is irrelevant to caches in this thread, Scouter owned caches, as the BSA badge requirement is specific to having the cache listed on Geocaching.com.

I'd be stunned if any have ever been listed on another service; possibly on the now defunct Garmin site, when people who didn't own listings could copy them over to that site and did, because of the incentives for adding listings there.

I have seen several scout caches listed on the alternative sites, and to me it's a lazy way of getting a merit badge. Most of those listings never get any visits on the alternative sites, so it should be a requirement to list geocaches on the official site for the merit badge.

I was once part of the review team on an alternative site, and truthfully it was some scout caches that made me have to hold my nose, but one of the admins is a scout leader, so there you go. :anicute:

And Garmin's site was a dumping ground for scout owned caches. I was a peer reviewer there for about 5 years.

7.3k · December 16, 2016

@Manville Possum, the BSA Geocaching Merit badge does not require hiding a cache, it's one of several options.

However, if the option to hide a public cache is used, then the pamphlet specifies that the cache must be listed on Geocaching.com.

Submitting Your Cache

When you have your cache in place, and are certain it meets all the requirements for placement, log onto www.geocaching.com and fill out the online form

on the "Hide & Seek a Cache" page.

That it may be listed elsewhere isn't mentioned, and certainly not prohibited. but listing elsewhere is not relevant to the badge requirements.

That said, I get the impression that a good many badges are awarded without the actual requirements having been read or met.

Edited December 16, 2016 by Isonzo Karst

5.7k · January 1, 2017

@Manville Possum, the BSA Geocaching Merit badge does not require hiding a cache, it's one of several options.

However, if the option to hide a public cache is used, then the pamphlet specifies that the cache must be listed on Geocaching.com.

Submitting Your Cache

When you have your cache in place, and are certain it meets all the requirements for placement, log onto www.geocaching.com and fill out the online form

on the "Hide & Seek a Cache" page.

That it may be listed elsewhere isn't mentioned, and certainly not prohibited. but listing elsewhere is not relevant to the badge requirements.

That said, I get the impression that a good many badges are awarded without the actual requirements having been read or met.

I was just commenting on some Scout caches that I have been part of the review process on, and I don't know anything about BSA's requirements.

If you should want an example, I can PM you.

January 11, 2017

There should be a 3 month waiting period (after registering) before people are allowed to place caches. This won't solve every problem, but will help.

I don't think we should prohibit anyone to hide a cache just because of their lack of experience. Rather, I think no one should encourage a cacher to hide a cache for any rewards, like for a merit badge or for a challenge cache.

Off-topic response - it's not about lack of experience, it's about commitment. If caches are required to be in place for at least three months, then I don't think it unreasonable for someone to first prove they, too, will stick around for at least three months.

Now back to the Scout Cacher chatter:

Agreed. It's about commitment. I have seen way too many newbie hides published and abandoned shortly after, leaving a mess for everyone when they go missing or unmaintained. Plus all the problems just getting them published which you don't see. What a waste of volunteer time with little benefit to the kids, I suspect.

And, yeah, I was still talking about the Scouts. A general 'waiting period' of 3 months after account creation would solve alot of problems without singling out a particular group.

Well, I'm totally agreeing with you both. That's exactly what I was saying.

3.2k · January 13, 2017

Geocaching merit badge is just a bad idea. I remember orienteering merit badge took a little bit of work, but this sounds rather simple, closer to basketry. I'll still bet that the scout caches overall are probably maintained a little better than kids caches overall, but they are still hidden by kids.

Yes the Orienteering Merit Badge will take a little work and if done properly, does teach the Scout all the skills needed to be successful at the sport. Several of us in the Orienteering community spent a lot of time in the beginning working with BSA to modify their initial pamphlet and requirements to fit the standards of the sport. It may take a similar effort by the Geocaching community to modify their program and also add a section describing in detail the responsibilities of owning a cache. The current edition simply says to "Maintain" it for 3 months, without defining "maintain".

February 8, 2017

I am a boy scout and a geocacher, and I totally agree about the scout caches not being maintained. I feel strongly about this, and I am doing my best to get the scouts/scout leaders to see the point of view from the geocaching side. Plus an unmaintained geocache is just litter in the woods. I am going to write a letter to the Boys Life Magazine, and I am talking to my troop and troop leaders about the subject.

7.4k · February 9, 2017

I am a boy scout and a geocacher, and I totally agree about the scout caches not being maintained. I feel strongly about this, and I am doing my best to get the scouts/scout leaders to see the point of view from the geocaching side. Plus an unmaintained geocache is just litter in the woods. I am going to write a letter to the Boys Life Magazine, and I am talking to my troop and troop leaders about the subject.

Nice! Thanks for sharing!

3.2k · February 12, 2017

Keep in mind it is the scout leadership, not the kids that ultimately set the standards. Here is the final "requirement".

c. Set up and hide a public geocache, following the guide- lines in the Geocaching merit badge pamphlet. Before doing so, share with your counselor a six-month maintenance plan for the geocache where you are personally responsible for the first three months. After setting up the geocache, with your parent’s permission, follow the logs online for 30 days and share them with your counselor.

So after 90 days he is "done". Maybe it would be better that it be archived and removed as a final requirement before receiving the badge.

February 12, 2017

Keep in mind it is the scout leadership, not the kids that ultimately set the standards. Here is the final "requirement".

c. Set up and hide a public geocache, following the guide- lines in the Geocaching merit badge pamphlet. Before doing so, share with your counselor a six-month maintenance plan for the geocache where you are personally responsible for the first three months. After setting up the geocache, with your parent’s permission, follow the logs online for 30 days and share them with your counselor.

So after 90 days he is "done". Maybe it would be better that it be archived and removed as a final requirement before receiving the badge.

I Agree!

3.4k · February 12, 2017

Keep in mind it is the scout leadership, not the kids that ultimately set the standards. Here is the final "requirement".

c. Set up and hide a public geocache, following the guide- lines in the Geocaching merit badge pamphlet. Before doing so, share with your counselor a six-month maintenance plan for the geocache where you are personally responsible for the first three months. After setting up the geocache, with your parent’s permission, follow the logs online for 30 days and share them with your counselor.

So after 90 days he is "done". Maybe it would be better that it be archived and removed as a final requirement before receiving the badge.

I Agree!

+1 TO THAT! Adoption over to an actual geocacher could also be an option.

Question: Do "the guide- lines in the Geocaching merit badge pamphlet" conform to Groundspeak guidelines?

5.7k · February 12, 2017

So after 90 days he is "done". Maybe it would be better that it be archived and removed as a final requirement before receiving the badge.

I believe it would be the best idea, but I just don't have that image of Scouts helping little old ladies cross the street anymore. :laughing:

Scouter/Scouting owned caches?

Recommended Posts

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Join the conversation