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You can't log this cache until you did 'X'

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I somethimes see these around my neighbourhood.

Like you have a cache, but then you can't log it until you have found X number of Trackables.

Or that you need to have done X number of certain cache types.

 

Are these even allowed?

It feels kinda annoying that these caches are around you but then I am not allowed log them.

 

Also X in my example above is mostly a real big number, like 1000+ puzzle caches.

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I somethimes see these around my neighbourhood.

Like you have a cache, but then you can't log it until you have found X number of Trackables.

Or that you need to have done X number of certain cache types.

 

Are these even allowed?

It feels kinda annoying that these caches are around you but then I am not allowed log them.

 

Also X in my example above is mostly a real big number, like 1000+ puzzle caches.

 

If it's marked as a ? challenge cache, yes.

One of the few exclusions for Additional Logging Requirements.

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Not in favor of them myself. Mostly because to me they encourage the numbers game. They are also very exclusionary, almost thumbing their nose at people who don't have the time, money, health and support to go uber caching.

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In the beginning geocachers were instructed to monitor their own cache pages for fake and offensive logs, as well as spoilers. Somehow this morphed into the belief that a log could be deleted for any reason, and a few started adding requirements such as log length, poetry, uploading pictures wearing some clothing item, ect. After a few became so ridiculous, Groundspeak had to rewrite the guidelines to sharply limit these requirements to geocaching related challenges.

Edited by 4wheelin_fool

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Not in favor of them myself. Mostly because to me they encourage the numbers game. They are also very exclusionary, almost thumbing their nose at people who don't have the time, money, health and support to go uber caching.

 

Thank you! That's exactly what I was saying in another thread, where people doubted me that they appeal to only a teeny percentage of the overall Geocaching populace, what we will now call the "uber cacher". :P Well, here's a thread started by one of the 99.8% of Geocachers who are not "uber cachers". :o

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I somethimes see these around my neighbourhood.

 

Like you have a cache, but then you can't log it until you boat to the location and SCUBA dive to the cache. Or that you need to rappel down a cliff.

 

Are these even allowed? It feels kinda annoying that these caches are around you but then I am not allowed log them.

 

They are also very exclusionary, almost thumbing their nose at people who don't have the time, money, health and support to go after them.

 

On the other hand, I guess I can ignore them if they don't interest me. And they do make geocaching more interesting to those who do want to go after them. So, maybe they're okay.

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I somethimes see these around my neighbourhood.

 

Like you have a cache, but then you can't log it until you boat to the location and SCUBA dive to the cache. Or that you need to rappel down a cliff.

 

Are these even allowed? It feels kinda annoying that these caches are around you but then I am not allowed log them.

 

They are also very exclusionary, almost thumbing their nose at people who don't have the time, money, health and support to go after them.

 

On the other hand, I guess I can ignore them if they don't interest me. And they do make geocaching more interesting to those who do want to go after them. So, maybe they're okay.

 

Well yeah, I know I bashed them in the post above you, one simply has to ignore them. I ignore dozens of them. Unless you live in an area like The Lone R, where there are THOUSANDS of them. And where seeing a log on one of them from someone with under 5,000 finds is pretty rare. :ph34r:

 

And the OP *is* a premium member. Ignore them.

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Well yeah, I know I bashed them in the post above you, one simply has to ignore them. I ignore dozens of them. Unless you live in an area like The Lone R, where there are THOUSANDS of them. And where seeing a log on one of them from someone with under 5,000 finds is pretty rare.

 

I think there is a difference between disliking challenge caches and LoneR's statement.

 

I dislike the number game aspect of geocaching too, but I think that they are many cache types out where which deserve LoneR's statement

"They are also very exclusionary, almost thumbing their nose at people who don't have the time, money, health and support to go after them."

much more than almost all challenge caches I've ever seen.

 

Getting 5000 finds, 1000 trackable logs and things like that are nowadays much easier to obtain than being able to do demanding climbing and diving caches, finishing a running/biking or nordic skiing track within a given time, solving very difficult puzzles that require special knowledge and abilities etc

 

I understand the frustration of those who live in areas where there is a very high number of challenge caches that excludes them, but that's no different to having many climbing caches, difficult puzzles, or other caches one is not able to manage. In my area there are large forest areas where every cache there is a T5 tree climbing cache. The chance that I qualify for an arbitrarily selected challenge cache is higher than that I could do any of these caches.

 

Cezanne

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It is too bad that there isn't some feature that would separate the actual finding of the container from the completion of the challenge.

 

In addition to allowing more fun finds for the OP, it would also easily facilitate filtering them on the map and queries.

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Challenge Caches involve positive, geocaching-related accomplishments. That's why they are exempt from the general prohibition of "Additional Loggin Requirements" such as having to write a log that rhymes, or having to take a photo at the cache while wearing a silly hat.

 

The Help Center has an Article about Challenge Caches, which the OP may find helpful.

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I somethimes see these around my neighbourhood.

Like you have a cache, but then you can't log it until you have found X number of Trackables.

Or that you need to have done X number of certain cache types.

 

Are these even allowed?

It feels kinda annoying that these caches are around you but then I am not allowed log them.

 

Also X in my example above is mostly a real big number, like 1000+ puzzle caches.

 

Are they "?" types? Do they have the word "Challenge" in the title?

 

If so, then yes, they are allowed.

 

Like this one, for example:

 

http://coord.info/GC374W5

Most Well Rounded D/T-Day Challenge

 

Help Center → Hiding a Geocache → Review Process: Hiding a Geocache →

1.19. Challenge Geocaches

http://support.Groundspeak.com/index.php?pg=kb.page&id=206

 

 

B.

Edited by Pup Patrol

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It is too bad that there isn't some feature that would separate the actual finding of the container from the completion of the challenge.

 

In addition to allowing more fun finds for the OP, it would also easily facilitate filtering them on the map and queries.

 

Nice plug, and I love your idea. :)

 

One more thing, I will disagree with The Lone R on one aspect, she mentioned they promote the numbers game. I tend to think they generally promote a diverse, quality caching experience, albeit with high numbers. Other than the Geo streak type ones, that often promote lifting two different skirts in a parking lot at 11:59 PM and 12:01 AM. :laughing: There may be others, but off the top of my head, that's the only type I can think of. For example, the Soccer Mom type in my area with a couple dozen parking lot mirco hides and 400 or 500 (I'm sure mostly traditional cache) finds isn't running around qualifying for any challenges.

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One example of a Challenge Listing in what appears to be your immediate area:

 

Challenge: MCXI

 

If you don't want to see them on your list of nearby Listings, there's an "Ignore" link on the upper right hand side of the navigation bar that should remove it from your view.

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It is too bad that there isn't some feature that would separate the actual finding of the container from the completion of the challenge.

 

In addition to allowing more fun finds for the OP, it would also easily facilitate filtering them on the map and queries.

 

No, it would not provide more fun for the OP. You either can make it an option for the cache owner to opt in for your proposed system (and then most challenge owners would opt out) or you will end up with no challenge caches or modified ones that still serve the same purpose (e.g. one could think up a solvable, but extremely difficult puzzle and help only those who have met certain conditions which is not forbidden).

Edited by cezanne

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Yes, they are allowed.

 

I agree that they are annoying, but some people seem to like them. :unsure:

 

I find them especially annoying when they take up a prime spot, but few people can meet the requirements. In this case, I like to go find them and post a long note (not a Found log) detailing all my experiences finding the cache.

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Yes, they are allowed.

 

I agree that they are annoying, but some people seem to like them. :unsure:

 

I find them especially annoying when they take up a prime spot, but few people can meet the requirements. In this case, I like to go find them and post a long note (not a Found log) detailing all my experiences finding the cache.

 

Please stay on topic, this thread is not about puzzles :laughing:

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Not in favor of them myself. Mostly because to me they encourage the numbers game. They are also very exclusionary, almost thumbing their nose at people who don't have the time, money, health and support to go uber caching.

Eh. That's kinda like saying bowling leagues are thumbing their nose at the weekend bowler because they encourage "the numbers game", i.e., in bowling, comparing scores with one another to see who won this week. Yeah, they're a step up, and some of them are an extraordinary step up. (Think professional sport leagues: is the pro golf tour thumbing its nose at the weekend golfer who doesn't total his card?)

 

And some of them make me shake my head because of the limited audience. But on the other hand, several challenge caches that I originally thought were absurd I found myself accomplishing a year or two later because it turned out they weren't really as far out there as they seemed even for someone like me that pays no attention at all to the numbers.

Edited by dprovan

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I somethimes see these around my neighbourhood.

 

Like you have a cache, but then you can't log it until you boat to the location and SCUBA dive to the cache. Or that you need to rappel down a cliff.

 

Are these even allowed? It feels kinda annoying that these caches are around you but then I am not allowed log them.

 

There's a fundamental difference between a cache you can't log because you didn't actually sign the logbook and one that you can't log even though you have signed the logbook but didn't do some silly set of extra parameters.

 

Doesn't matter one way or the other to me since I would go find that cache just for the fun of it just like I do any other cache.

 

In reality, it is only a problem for the people obsessed with the numbers. If you just like finding caches, go find it and just don't log it.

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It is too bad that there isn't some feature that would separate the actual finding of the container from the completion of the challenge.

 

In addition to allowing more fun finds for the OP, it would also easily facilitate filtering them on the map and queries.

 

As you find geocaches, place them on your ignore list. Then you can filter out ignored caches from your maps, queries, etc.

 

It works pretty good. I will never qualify for any challenge cache. (on paper anyway) But nothing prevents you from hunting the cache as long as you have a set of coordinates. The same goes for puzzle caches.

 

If you enjoy finding caches, go find caches. If you enjoy stats, then you need to jump through the hoops.

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To each their own.

 

I have yet to do a challenge cache, and not likely ever will!

 

It's not what I find fun in caching, so I just don't participate, but don't get annoyed at them, or those that like to do them. I usually filter them out, and almost always read a cache page before I look for it. And I am never impressed with anyone that does a particular challenge, any more than I am with high number cachers.

 

As I said ... To each their own.

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I find them especially annoying when they take up a prime spot, but few people can meet the requirements. In this case, I like to go find them and post a long note (not a Found log) detailing all my experiences finding the cache.

 

+1

 

You probably had just as much fun finding it as anyone that qualified for it. That's what geocaching is all about; the hunt.

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There's a fundamental difference between a cache you can't log because you didn't actually sign the logbook and one that you can't log even though you have signed the logbook but didn't do some silly set of extra parameters.

 

Not really. Like I think that one should solve the puzzles for puzzle caches as a prerequisite for a deserved "found it", I feel that qualifying is the equivalent for challenge caches. Right from the beginning I would have preferred the log type be called "accomplished it" and not "found it". That would fit much better to what I expect a finder to do.

 

Doesn't matter one way or the other to me since I would go find that cache just for the fun of it just like I do any other cache.

 

Certainly. Someone who did not solve the puzzle for a puzzle cache and has no idea about it, could as well write a note instead of a "found it". I know that cachers who did not solve the puzzle can log a found it which the cache owner cannot delete, but this does not mean that their log is well deserved.

 

The advantage of the majority of challenge caches (not all) over puzzle caches is that the coordinates to be visited are known and no special effort is necessary to obtain them. So if someone just wants to visit a location and search for a container, challenge caches provide a lower barrier than puzzle caches. So it is mainly about the +1 aspect when people complain about challenge caches.

 

Cezanne

Edited by cezanne

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I somethimes see these around my neighbourhood.

 

Like you have a cache, but then you can't log it until you boat to the location and SCUBA dive to the cache. Or that you need to rappel down a cliff.

 

Are these even allowed? It feels kinda annoying that these caches are around you but then I am not allowed log them.

 

They are also very exclusionary, almost thumbing their nose at people who don't have the time, money, health and support to go after them.

 

On the other hand, I guess I can ignore them if they don't interest me. And they do make geocaching more interesting to those who do want to go after them. So, maybe they're okay.

Certainly a challenge is no more "exclusionary" than any other method to increase cache difficulty to "discourage" people from attempting a cache.

 

However, it should be clear that for many types of challenge caches, the main qualification is that your have been caching for some time and have found a lot of cache. Sure there are fizzychallenges that may require you to go outside your comfort zone to fill in a grid, or county challenges tha require travelling a bit beyond your "home" area to find caches. Streak type challenges certainly test your discipline to go find a cache everyday, something most people would not normally do. But for most challenges, you can just click into GSAK and see if you already qualify, and because I've found a lot of caches, I often do.

 

The guidelines for challenges don't say that they can't be hard - only that they are attainable by a reasonable number of cachers. But the guidelines do say they can't exclude any particular segment or be too burdensome. I think the examples show what this means. For example you can't have a challenge to find caches on or before a certain date, because that prevents cachers who began after that date from completing the challenge - and in fact prevents anyone who hasn't completed that part of challenge from ever doing so. Also counting only finds made after a certain date may be seen as too burdensome for cachers who have found most of the caches in an area.

 

In another thread, you gave an example of a challenge to find mystery caches for 30 consecutive days. If you live in an with few mystery caches this may exclude cachers who have already found most of the mystery caches. Sure they could stop finding mystery caches until there are enough for a streak - but challenges requiring that people give up looking for other caches are explicitly forbidden, and it could be argued that asking people to give up certain caches to allow them to complete a challenge in the future should also be forbidden. You might also argue that one could travel to find more mystery caches. But asking someone to travel to complete a streak may be seen as too burdensome. Outside of the retired couple who live in a RV, most people are just not able to travel for 30 consecutive days to get to places where there are mystery caches to find.

 

Simply saying that other caches are difficult and therefore not attainable by some people, doesn't give challenge caches free reign. Because of their special status they are subject to special rules to limit just how difficult or exclusionary they may be.

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Challenge Caches are one of the reasons I stopped logging finds online. Too many ridiculous challenges. But, if it looks like a type of hide that I like to search out, I'll go find it even though I don't qualify. Then, it's marked as Found in my GSAK database. The website Ignore feature removes it from the online maps. A online note log is posted if I leave or take trackables or to record my experience. GSAK keeps any stats that I want to follow.

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I somethimes see these around my neighbourhood.

 

Like you have a cache, but then you can't log it until you boat to the location and SCUBA dive to the cache. Or that you need to rappel down a cliff.

 

Are these even allowed? It feels kinda annoying that these caches are around you but then I am not allowed log them.

 

They are also very exclusionary, almost thumbing their nose at people who don't have the time, money, health and support to go after them.

 

On the other hand, I guess I can ignore them if they don't interest me. And they do make geocaching more interesting to those who do want to go after them. So, maybe they're okay.

 

I always thought that if you got to the cache it was fair game regardless of how the owner might like you to get at it. I remember a while back a caching buddy managed to claim a high terrain cache with no effort at all. It was supposed to be 50 feet up a tree but he found it lying on the ground beside the tree. Presumably a squirrel had dislodged it. Either way he let the owner know but also claimed a find on the basis he'd signed the log. We might argue that's not in the spirit of the game but the rules say if you signed the log you can claim the find.

 

Challenge caches let you require the finder completes a challenge, such as "find 8 different cache types in one day", "find a cache every day of the year", "find 100 puzzle caches" etc. Some of them represent an interesting challenge, others merely seem to offer an easy way to cheat them. The idea of filling the calendar is interesting but it's not as if anybody knows what day you really found a cache, so if you want to fill the calendar without going out on each individual day the chances are you'd get away with finding a dozen caches in a day and claiming them on each of 12 consecutive days. Virtuals and earthcaches are even easier because it's not as if anyone can check when you signature appeared on the log.

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I somethimes see these around my neighbourhood.

 

Like you have a cache, but then you can't log it until you boat to the location and SCUBA dive to the cache. Or that you need to rappel down a cliff.

 

Are these even allowed? It feels kinda annoying that these caches are around you but then I am not allowed log them.

 

They are also very exclusionary, almost thumbing their nose at people who don't have the time, money, health and support to go after them.

 

On the other hand, I guess I can ignore them if they don't interest me. And they do make geocaching more interesting to those who do want to go after them. So, maybe they're okay.

 

I always thought that if you got to the cache it was fair game regardless of how the owner might like you to get at it. I remember a while back a caching buddy managed to claim a high terrain cache with no effort at all. It was supposed to be 50 feet up a tree but he found it lying on the ground beside the tree. Presumably a squirrel had dislodged it. Either way he let the owner know but also claimed a find on the basis he'd signed the log. We might argue that's not in the spirit of the game but the rules say if you signed the log you can claim the find.

 

Challenge caches let you require the finder completes a challenge, such as "find 8 different cache types in one day", "find a cache every day of the year", "find 100 puzzle caches" etc. Some of them represent an interesting challenge, others merely seem to offer an easy way to cheat them. The idea of filling the calendar is interesting but it's not as if anybody knows what day you really found a cache, so if you want to fill the calendar without going out on each individual day the chances are you'd get away with finding a dozen caches in a day and claiming them on each of 12 consecutive days. Virtuals and earthcaches are even easier because it's not as if anyone can check when you signature appeared on the log.

  • "Cheating" has increased with the advent of challenge caches (and also souvenirs). I suspect that more and more cachers are willing to log a find on a cache they didn't find in order to qualify for a challenge. We saw this happen in August with events. Many people logged CITOs and Events that they didn't attend in order to get the complete set of souvenirs.
  • Hiding caches to help others qualify for a challenge is on the rise - someone posts a challenge requiring x number of caches whose title starts with Z then others plant caches that start with Z soley to meet the challenge. Same for cache types. Cache types like letterboxes get planted not because folks understand or even like the stamp aspect of letterboxes but because its an icon that people need to collect for challenges.
  • Power trails become more popular because people need to gobble up caches in order to meet the high-numbers challenge cache requirements.
  • LPCs get more visits because people need a cache-a-day and a grateful for the lame cache simply to get the smiley, which reinforces the LPC cache owners' sense of accomplishment in providing the all-important smiley. The smiley becomes the dominating factor both for hiding and finding.
  • The leisurely pastime becomes more and more a competitive game.

 

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I like Challenge caches, even the ones I will never be able to accomplish. They give me ideas outside my experience and the good ones make me plan my caching experience in different ways.

 

I've long argued that Challenge caches should be a separate type - calling them mystery is a nonsense. There is no mystery. You know where they are and you know what needs to be done. If they ever become a separate type they should have two unique log types. A "Discovered" log which is exactly the same as a found log, except that it doesn't increment your found count; and a "Completed" log which is locationless in which you display the completion of the challenge. The find count is only incremented when both have been logged. The completion log could be backdated to the date you actually qualified, even if it was before the cache was published.

 

Anyone who finds the container can claim the discovery. Anyone who wants to log their completion can do so.

 

Sounds logical to me

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Challenge caches encourage me to achieve a goal I might not have done or thought of it not for the challenge. Am working on doing higher elevation hikes so I can qualify for a 50,000 feet elevation challenge. Went to go get a cache starting with an X for a challenge. Some of these caches make me travel more than I might have otherwise, like county challenges, Delorme, etc, take me to places I would not have gone otherwise. Some challenges I will never do. Look at the logs for a challenge cache, most people are very excited about doing them. I will agree that if its a super great unique spot, its probably not the best use of that space.

 

Folks like to knock challenge caches and they do it every single time they are mentioned here. I personally hate gigantic power trails but you do not see me over and over calling for their eradication because I think they are terrible. I also hate caches in lamp posts, power boxes, but others like them.

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I always thought that if you got to the cache it was fair game regardless of how the owner might like you to get at it. I remember a while back a caching buddy managed to claim a high terrain cache with no effort at all. It was supposed to be 50 feet up a tree but he found it lying on the ground beside the tree. Presumably a squirrel had dislodged it. Either way he let the owner know but also claimed a find on the basis he'd signed the log. We might argue that's not in the spirit of the game but the rules say if you signed the log you can claim the find.

 

Yes, one can claim a find according to the rules and as a cache owner I of course would let stand such a log. It might be a special case as it most probably has not been known before that the cache got dislocated.

 

However, I would never intentionally exploit such a situation. For example, there is a D4 cache which involves a 3D maze container which I failed to open when I was there. Several times inbetween the container was not working as it should be, sometimes for weeks. Still I did not go there to claim a find.

I signed the log book of a T4 cache where the final is at T1 and where a stage is at T4 and where I guessed the final. I did not log a find for this cache because I would not be able to get up the tree without a ladder which I do not want to use at such a location. Likewise I would not want to log a find on a tree climbing cache where someone else climbed up and handed down the log book.

 

Along the same lines I feel for puzzle caches and for challenge caches.

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I somethimes see these around my neighbourhood.

 

Like you have a cache, but then you can't log it until you boat to the location and SCUBA dive to the cache. Or that you need to rappel down a cliff.

 

Are these even allowed? It feels kinda annoying that these caches are around you but then I am not allowed log them.

 

They are also very exclusionary, almost thumbing their nose at people who don't have the time, money, health and support to go after them.

 

On the other hand, I guess I can ignore them if they don't interest me. And they do make geocaching more interesting to those who do want to go after them. So, maybe they're okay.

 

I always thought that if you got to the cache it was fair game regardless of how the owner might like you to get at it. I remember a while back a caching buddy managed to claim a high terrain cache with no effort at all. It was supposed to be 50 feet up a tree but he found it lying on the ground beside the tree. Presumably a squirrel had dislodged it. Either way he let the owner know but also claimed a find on the basis he'd signed the log. We might argue that's not in the spirit of the game but the rules say if you signed the log you can claim the find.

 

Challenge caches let you require the finder completes a challenge, such as "find 8 different cache types in one day", "find a cache every day of the year", "find 100 puzzle caches" etc. Some of them represent an interesting challenge, others merely seem to offer an easy way to cheat them. The idea of filling the calendar is interesting but it's not as if anybody knows what day you really found a cache, so if you want to fill the calendar without going out on each individual day the chances are you'd get away with finding a dozen caches in a day and claiming them on each of 12 consecutive days. Virtuals and earthcaches are even easier because it's not as if anyone can check when you signature appeared on the log.

  • "Cheating" has increased with the advent of challenge caches (and also souvenirs). I suspect that more and more cachers are willing to log a find on a cache they didn't find in order to qualify for a challenge. We saw this happen in August with events. Many people logged CITOs and Events that they didn't attend in order to get the complete set of souvenirs.
  • Hiding caches to help others qualify for a challenge is on the rise - someone posts a challenge requiring x number of caches whose title starts with Z then others plant caches that start with Z soley to meet the challenge. Same for cache types. Cache types like letterboxes get planted not because folks understand or even like the stamp aspect of letterboxes but because its an icon that people need to collect for challenges.
  • Power trails become more popular because people need to gobble up caches in order to meet the high-numbers challenge cache requirements.
  • LPCs get more visits because people need a cache-a-day and a grateful for the lame cache simply to get the smiley, which reinforces the LPC cache owners' sense of accomplishment in providing the all-important smiley. The smiley becomes the dominating factor both for hiding and finding.
  • The leisurely pastime becomes more and more a competitive game.

 

I vaguely recall seeing an early challenge cache that had some kind of stipulation that only caches published on or before the challenge could be used to qualify, so presumably whoever set it figured people could easily just throw out a load of caches with no intention other than to make the challenge easier.

 

I remember back in the days when I was looking to fill my calendar I stopped even thinking about getting FTF on local caches because I was saving local ones for any days I wanted to fill a day on the calendar. I'm not even sure what it was that prompted me to stop and wonder what the point of it was after I'd filled the calendar, but instead of having a feeling of satisfaction I just got the overwhelming feeling that I'd been changing my behaviour patterns for no reason other than ticking a box on a web site. And along the way I'd lost much of the enjoyment I'd once got from going out and looking for caches. I often wonder how much of my disillusionment with the game now stems from the sense of it becoming a bit of a drudge ticking boxes, not wanting to miss one because I'd have to wait another year for another chance, and it becoming more like a chore than a fun pastime.

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I find them especially annoying when they take up a prime spot, but few people can meet the requirements. In this case, I like to go find them and post a long note (not a Found log) detailing all my experiences finding the cache.

 

+1

 

You probably had just as much fun finding it as anyone that qualified for it. That's what geocaching is all about; the hunt.

 

With some of the new ones which have popped up in my area, I'm pretty sure I had *more* fun than those meeting the requirements. Spending hours sifting through GSAK data can't be fun for anyone. :unsure:

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  • "Cheating" has increased with the advent of challenge caches (and also souvenirs). I suspect that more and more cachers are willing to log a find on a cache they didn't find in order to qualify for a challenge. We saw this happen in August with events. Many people logged CITOs and Events that they didn't attend in order to get the complete set of souvenirs.
  • Hiding caches to help others qualify for a challenge is on the rise - someone posts a challenge requiring x number of caches whose title starts with Z then others plant caches that start with Z soley to meet the challenge. Same for cache types. Cache types like letterboxes get planted not because folks understand or even like the stamp aspect of letterboxes but because its an icon that people need to collect for challenges.
  • Power trails become more popular because people need to gobble up caches in order to meet the high-numbers challenge cache requirements.
  • LPCs get more visits because people need a cache-a-day and a grateful for the lame cache simply to get the smiley, which reinforces the LPC cache owners' sense of accomplishment in providing the all-important smiley. The smiley becomes the dominating factor both for hiding and finding.
  • The leisurely pastime becomes more and more a competitive game.

 

In my region there are only two challenges caches (a third one existed only for a few months), one of them being from 2014 and the other being a cache that requires to have visited caches in a number of different countries. Until about 2 years ago there existed only a handful challenge caches throughout the whole country, now there exist a larger number around Vienna and in Upper Austria, but still not many when compared to some areas of the US.

 

The numbers game trend and all the associated issues (including the cheating you mentioned above, the popularity of number trails etc) has been clearly visible however in my country as well.

 

Letterbox hybrids are popular in my area even though there does not exist a single challenge where letterbox hybrids are needed. There might certainly be some people who hide a letterbox hybrid to obtain another icon on the hidden side and to get additional points for badgegen and project-gc. But again this cannot be blamed to challenge caches (and also not to the August 2014 souvenirs). As I mentioned elsewhere, I have considered to hide a letterbiox hybrid, but neither because I like stamps nor because of any of the reasons you suggested. If there existed a reasonable letterboxing site for Austria, I'd consider to go there. As there does not exist such a site, letterbox hybrids are the only alternative for the people around here. I like the challenge of finding locations and containers without GPs-devices. That's also why orienteering appeals to me and it's the same reason why letterboxing applies to me.

I do understand that stamps are part of letterboxing, but stamps are not what are important to me (except the very special stamp I got as a present).

 

There are many cachers around here who work on streaks without working on a challenge cache requiring a streak. (Some badge systems however associate points for streaks.)

 

To sum up I do not think that challenge caches can be blamed with being the major reason for all what report about. I'd rather say that the effects of the number game can be watched in almost all areas of geocaching. For example, in my area, the number of hiking multi caches has decreased considerably as hiding 10+ traditionals with a bonus cache (something which did not even exist back then) has become so much more popular.

 

The number of cheating lists with finals for multi caches and puzzle caches in my area is another example that what you listed above is not a special feature of challenge caches.

 

I think that sites like badgegen, project-gc etc are more harmful when used by people who do not reflect about what they are doing than challenge caches.

Edited by cezanne

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I see nothing wrong with them (and they are allowed)

 

It's the CACHE OWNERS decision to put out whatever cache they want - as long as they meet requirements. You've gotta remember also - the requirements have changed over the years. There might be caches out there that don't meet the current requirements but they were published before such requirements were set in place - they are grandfathered in.

 

How can you complain about any caches when its YOUR choice to avoid them?

 

Would you rather have the same old traditional hides everywhere? Or would you rather have variety? There are some really creative caches out there - whether its creative containers, creative multi's, creative puzzles, creative challenges....whatever. VARIETY. Keeps things interesting!!!

 

I would never discourage 'creativity' in this hobby.

 

Again - if you don't like those types of caches....then move on to something else.

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Okey, I feel somehow attacked for asking... :unsure:

It was just a simple question to ask if it was allowed or not.

It is not that I am complaining or something.

 

But thanks for the answer. :)

Edited by #Tenzin

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Okey, I feel somehow attacked for asking... :unsure:

It was just a simple question to ask if it was allowed or not.

It is not that I am complaining or something.

 

But thanks for the answer. :)

 

Just one of the many services offered free of charge on these forums ;)

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Okey, I feel somehow attacked for asking... :unsure:

It was just a simple question to ask if it was allowed or not.

It is not that I am complaining or something.

 

But thanks for the answer. :)

 

PS, I have no problem someone new asking the question, if I was referring to anyone, its the same folks who post their opinions they should be removed every time the subject is brought up.

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Okey, I feel somehow attacked for asking... :unsure:

It was just a simple question to ask if it was allowed or not.

It is not that I am complaining or something.

 

But thanks for the answer. :)

 

PS, I have no problem someone new asking the question, if I was referring to anyone, its the same folks who post their opinions they should be removed every time the subject is brought up.

 

OK then, now I feel offended. :laughing:

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Okey, I feel somehow attacked for asking... :unsure:

It was just a simple question to ask if it was allowed or not.

It is not that I am complaining or something.

 

But thanks for the answer. :)

 

PS, I have no problem someone new asking the question, if I was referring to anyone, its the same folks who post their opinions they should be removed every time the subject is brought up.

 

OK then, now I feel offended. :laughing:

 

Me too. bad_boy_animated.gif

 

I add the opposing view so that folks don't think this is a beloved cache type with little negative effect to the pastime.

 

Everything in moderation. A few good challenge caches are fine. But when they start to dominate and repeat themselves, and exclude a majority of players, it's too much. Most of you seem to have a balance in your area. In southern Ontario there are 1000s, lots of power trail challenge caches. Lots of leaky pill bottle and bison tube challenge containers, because the point is the achievement and the achievement not the overall caching experience.

 

The achievement is also not rewarding enough unless one can exclude others from claiming a find. Challenge caches have hijacked what use to be a way of recording the caches we have visited, and now has become a number with which we compete.

 

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Okey, I feel somehow attacked for asking... :unsure:

It was just a simple question to ask if it was allowed or not.

It is not that I am complaining or something.

 

But thanks for the answer. :)

I had to go back an look at your original question to see if you were complaining.

 

I somethimes see these around my neighbourhood.

Like you have a cache, but then you can't log it until you have found X number of Trackables.

Or that you need to have done X number of certain cache types.

 

Are these even allowed?

It feels kinda annoying that these caches are around you but then I am not allowed log them.

 

Also X in my example above is mostly a real big number, like 1000+ puzzle caches.

I'm not sure how people are supposed to take the fact that it feels kinda annoying that these caches are around you but then you are not allowed log them.

 

It's not an opinion anyone should be attacked for. But because it is quite common, sometimes those who like these kinds of challenge caches end up as least sounding defensive about them.

 

There are really good arguments both in favor and opposed to challenge caches, so whenever it is brought up we get a lively discussion.

 

The explanation of challenge caches contains this statement

A challenge geocache needs to appeal to, and be attainable by, a reasonable number of geocachers. A challenge geocache may not specifically exclude any segment of geocachers. If a geocacher is required to alter their caching style or habits, such as avoiding a particular geocache type to attain a specific percentage or average, the geocache will not be published.

 

Perhaps the question you should ask is what value of X it big enough that the above text kicks in?

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It feels kinda annoying that these caches are around you but then I am not allowed log them.
You are allowed to log them -- with a note. Its too bad there isn't some system that would separate the challenge completion from the find, so that you could post a Found It.

 

the opposing view so that folks don't think this is a beloved cache type with little negative effect to the pastime.
Within the context of the OP, I think they might feel less annoyed if the Challenge Stars system were deployed. They could still claim finds on all the challenges around them whether they have met the requirements or not.

 

Even without the Stars, the OP can still find the containers, sign the logs and post a Note so I am not sure what are the negative effects.

 

In southern Ontario there are 1000s
Not sure from what data that count is derived.

 

Based on a GSAK database of active (as of 20 September 2014) caches in all of Ontario which I have not found, there are 540 Mystery type caches with the word "Challenge" in their name. Add my forty challenge finds and you have 580.

 

There are two bookmark lists:

 

A comprehensive List of Ontario Challenges: I challenge you to have a bigger list.

 

Challenge Caches of Ontario

 

They have 636 and 645 entries, respectively, and include archived caches.

 

lots of power trail challenge caches.
The most prolific hider of challenges in Ontario has a set of 61 which fit the description of a challenge power trail (ie their names all start with the same phraseology and are placed consecutively on a rails-to-trails trail).

 

Lots of leaky pill bottle and bison tube challenge containers, because the point is the achievement and the achievement not the overall caching experience.
Anecdotally, that has not been my experience. I have only found one bison tube final for a (relatively simple) challenge I have completed. The location, however, would not support a larger container and the tube was well-camouflaged, in a challenging-to-find spot and dry.

 

The achievement is also not rewarding enough unless one can exclude others from claiming a find.
If that were the case (which for me it is not) then I think the Stars system is much more exclusive reward. For those who feel this way, a five-star Challenge Completed will offer a much more exclusionary reward than a single arbitrary smiley.

 

Challenge caches have hijacked what use to be a way of recording the caches we have visited, and now has become a number with which we compete.
I haven't been able to find any leaderboards which are exclusive to challenge cache types. Are there any?

 

Spending hours sifting through GSAK data can't be fun for anyone.
Depends on how you do the sifting, I guess. For me, it is fun to try to construct filters or write macro code, or move the data into Excel to derive a set of caches from my finds that meet the requirements. If I don't meet them, the same fun is had trying to construct a list of caches to be found that represent the most efficient way to complete the requirements. Maybe its because I do IT as a job, and I love my job?

 

I like Challenge caches, even the ones I will never be able to accomplish. They give me ideas outside my experience and the good ones make me plan my caching experience in different ways.
This. As a workaholic, I used to disparage travel and vacation (as being for the weak), but caching has absolutely made these things palatable, if not desired. Being able to selectively choose strategic targets in a cache-dense area makes an already-awesome hobby that much more fun for me. Personally, challenges are the chocolate sauce and sprinkles on my caching ice cream.

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You are allowed to log them -- with a note. Its too bad there isn't some system that would separate the challenge completion from the find, so that you could post a Found It.

I've found one "Challenge Cache". I hiked up there, found the container, cleaned out the leaves & sticks, accessed the log sheet (it was inside a 3D puzzle maze), signed the log, and made the online Note Log. Since it is to be denied to me as a "Find", I could log a DNF since I definitely did search for it and Did Not Find. But I logged a Note anyway. The Cache Owner PM'd me with a nice email about how he hopes someday I'll qualify to "Find" it. I never will (it's one of those Solve Every Puzzle In The World or whatever impossible thing I'll certainly never do), but that was a cool email.

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Even without the Stars, the OP can still find the containers, sign the logs and post a Note so I am not sure what are the negative effects.

 

 

The negative effect is if we post a note, it doesn't come off the map. So when we do a search for caches we have found, any challenge caches remain on the map. The only way to remove them is to put them on an ignore list - which, correct me if I'm wrong, is not an option for non-premium cachers. And for premium cachers I don't want caches I've found to go on my ignore list. I want them on the list of caches I've found. Some people feel strongly that geocaching is competitive and everyone must compete or it's no fun for the uber cachers. The find count has become a competitive score, not simply a list of caches found.

 

If the find count is now a score, I wish Groundspeak would come up with a new name for the Found list. Call it Visits and allow Visits to be filtered out when we set up PQs or toggle on/off our Finds (new name Visits), when we look at the maps. Or let us keep our Find count as it once was and use frinklabs' challenge star system idea. I see it as a win-win and we get back to a-find-is-a-find not a score.

Edited by L0ne.R

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1411333165[/url]' post='5429877']
lots of power trail challenge caches.

 

The most prolific hider of challenges in Ontario has a set of 61 which fit the description of a challenge power trail (ie their names all start with the same phraseology and are placed consecutively on a rails-to-trails trail).

 

Here are some screenshots of local-to-me challenge power trails

 

a29fc997-62dc-42f0-aaa4-6eb4fdb65fa0.png

abad053d-f68c-4e51-90ba-53c0f2a3da1d.png

 

Lots of leaky pill bottle and bison tube challenge containers, because the point is the achievement and the achievement not the overall caching experience.

 

Anecdotally, that has not been my experience.

 

Last 2 I did, one was a leaky pill bottle (where an ammo can would fit). One was a bison tube (where a larger cache could fit) with a soaked scroll. I'm not an uber cacher (approx 2000 in 12 years - less than a handful in other provinces and New York, pretty much stuck in southern Ontario, and on-principal will not encourage junk micro hides by finding them to up my numbers) so those may be the only 2 I will qualify for, so perhaps my viewpoint is limited.

Edited by L0ne.R

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The negative effect is if we post a note, it doesn't come off the map. So when we do a search for caches we have found, any challenge caches remain on the map. The only way to remove them is to put them on an ignore list - which, correct me if I'm wrong, is not an option for non-premium cachers. And for premium cachers I don't want caches I've found to go on my ignore list. I want them on the list of caches I've found. Some people feel strongly that geocaching is competitive and everyone must compete or it's no fun for the uber cachers. The find count is a competitive score, not simply a list of caches found.

 

I'm neiter an uber cacher nor do I think of geocaching as a competition. I do think of "found it" however as "accomplished it". If I just see a container and cannot open it, then I do not log a find.

If I could not reach the container on my own, I do not log a found it. If I cannot solve a puzzle, a do not log a "found it". I have signed many log books and never written found it logs for those caches.

 

I do not care at all about my find count.

 

If the find count is now a score, I wish Groundspeak would come up with a new name for the Found list. Call it Visits and allow Visits to be filtered out when we set up PQs or toggle on/off our Finds (new name Visits), when we look at the maps. Or let us keep our Find count as it once was and use challenge star system idea. I see it as a win-win and we get back to a-find-is-a-find not a score.

 

The challenge star idea is not a win-win. It's like Roman!'s request that any anyone who pays for it gets the coordinates of multi and puzzle cache finals.

I see challenge caches as a legitimate way of targeting certain caches to certain cacher groups, like climbing caches, puzzle caches etc.

With the challenge star system the motivation to hide a difficult challenge cache would go to zero.

 

A separate log type "visited" might not do any harm, but it should not increase the present find counter. It could also be used of the honest cachers who visit puzzle caches without having dealt with the puzzle (though I know that this will rarely happen).

 

As lame powertrail challenge caches with leaky container are regarded, I wonder why it makes any difference for you whether those are challenge caches or normal caches. I do not like such caches regardless of their type and I prefer not to visit them whenever possible.

 

Sure the caches take away some space, but if challenges were not allowed, those caches you do not like would not suddenly turn into well maintained ammo cans stuffed with nice swag at nice locations.

 

Cezanne

Edited by cezanne

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Not in favor of them myself. Mostly because to me they encourage the numbers game. They are also very exclusionary, almost thumbing their nose at people who don't have the time, money, health and support to go uber caching.

Eh. That's kinda like saying bowling leagues are thumbing their nose at the weekend bowler because they encourage "the numbers game", i.e., in bowling, comparing scores with one another to see who won this week. Yeah, they're a step up, and some of them are an extraordinary step up. (Think professional sport leagues: is the pro golf tour thumbing its nose at the weekend golfer who doesn't total his card?)

 

And some of them make me shake my head because of the limited audience. But on the other hand, several challenge caches that I originally thought were absurd I found myself accomplishing a year or two later because it turned out they weren't really as far out there as they seemed even for someone like me that pays no attention at all to the numbers.

 

Yeah, I don't really object to their existence...but it's irritating to watch two or three cachers in my area keep trying to one-up each other with these pretty ludicrous challenges. Some involve finding all caches in a given area, which will sometimes THEN include other challenge caches that only a handful of people even qualify for. It's essentially doubling or tripling the challenge and putting out a challenge that no "reasonable number of cachers qualify for". I don't know how some of them get published since they go against the spirit of the challenge cache guidelines.

 

I'll actually try qualifying for the occasional challenge, but mostly only for those that involve names, not numbers...alphabetical or thematic challenges and the like. I'll never really TRY to qualify for one of the grid challenges. Maybe if I ever discover that I'm close on a 366 day challenge or something I'll go ahead and see about wrapping it up, but I can't ever imagine traveling specifically to find a cache on the other side of the country just to qualify for some Jasmer challenge or something.

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Even with the proliferation of challenge caches, the vast majority of caches are really basic, 1/1 or 1.5/1.5 micros that anybody can find in five minutes.

 

There's nothing wrong with occasionally setting the bar a little higher so that experienced, keen cachers have something to keep them busy as well.

 

Remember:

 

You don't have to find every cache.

 

A cache that you can't find/log is not intended to be a personal insult.

 

Not all caches are for all people.

 

It's a big world out there. Can't do a geocache? Move on to the next one.

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Even with the proliferation of challenge caches, the vast majority of caches are really basic, 1/1 or 1.5/1.5 micros that anybody can find in five minutes.

 

There's nothing wrong with occasionally setting the bar a little higher so that experienced, keen cachers have something to keep them busy as well.

 

Remember:

 

You don't have to find every cache.

 

A cache that you can't find/log is not intended to be a personal insult.

 

Not all caches are for all people.

 

It's a big world out there. Can't do a geocache? Move on to the next one.

But...

Even Groundspeak has said that all physical caches should be able to be logged online if you've found the cache and signed a logbook. So... :ph34r:

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Even with the proliferation of challenge caches, the vast majority of caches are really basic, 1/1 or 1.5/1.5 micros that anybody can find in five minutes.

 

There's nothing wrong with occasionally setting the bar a little higher so that experienced, keen cachers have something to keep them busy as well.

 

Remember:

 

You don't have to find every cache.

 

A cache that you can't find/log is not intended to be a personal insult.

 

Not all caches are for all people.

 

It's a big world out there. Can't do a geocache? Move on to the next one.

 

That sounds so simple, doesn't it. Did you see the screenshots of the powertrail of challenges around Ontario that was posted? In that example, long trails were completely saturated with challenge caches. When the next one, and the next one, and the next one....and so are, are more challenges that, because one isn't an uber cacher might not ever be able to "find" the proliferation of challenge caches starts to have a significant negative impact.

 

Several years ago their were only a few types of challenge caches, the fizzy challenge, jasmer, delorme, perhaps an all counties challenge, but now they've got completely out of hand. Personally, I'm not against the idea of challenges in general, but when people start created power trails of challenge caches, and some of the completely absurd criteria for challenges, the "challenge" doesn't seems to be more about who can create the largest number of challenge caches or the most obscure or difficult challenge, rather that create a cache that people are going to enjoy finding.

 

 

 

 

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Did you see the screenshots of the powertrail of challenges around Ontario that was posted? In that example, long trails were completely saturated with challenge caches.

 

Excuse me while I don't shed any tears over power trails of any sort.

 

At least some work is required to log those beyond throwing empty film cans out the window as you drive by.

Edited by narcissa

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In that example, long trails were completely saturated with challenge caches. When the next one, and the next one, and the next one....and so are, are more challenges that, because one isn't an uber cacher might not ever be able to "find" the proliferation of challenge caches starts to have a significant negative impact.

 

I's say less negative impact than conventional powertrails. If powertrails get less visitors, that's fine with me.

 

If it were me, I rather would question powertrails than challenge caches.

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