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Puzzled by puzzles


Roman!

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To me one of the best things about geocaching is that it gets you outdoors and walking .....if I wanted to sit in front of a computer and run search engines, etc I could stay at work.

Why do puzzles haters always use this invlaid premis as an argument?

 

There is not an either/or relationship between caching and solving puzzles. People choose what to do with their free time...some even solve puzzles rather than watch tv!

 

Some people do crosswords and word searches in the morning paper but are generally not called out for not getting outdoors...

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To me one of the best things about geocaching is that it gets you outdoors and walking .....if I wanted to sit in front of a computer and run search engines, etc I could stay at work.

Why do puzzles haters always use this invlaid premis as an argument?

 

There is not an either/or relationship between caching and solving puzzles. People choose what to do with their free time...some even solve puzzles rather than watch tv!

 

Some people do crosswords and word searches in the morning paper but are generally not called out for not getting outdoors...

 

Exactly.

 

In fact, why isn't Bamboozle outside right now instead of posting online about how he doesn't want to be sitting in front of a computer?

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To me one of the best things about geocaching is that it gets you outdoors and walking .....if I wanted to sit in front of a computer and run search engines, etc I could stay at work.

Why do puzzles haters always use this invlaid premis as an argument?

 

There is not an either/or relationship between caching and solving puzzles. People choose what to do with their free time...some even solve puzzles rather than watch tv!

 

Some people do crosswords and word searches in the morning paper but are generally not called out for not getting outdoors...

 

I definitely share MKFmly's opinion on this as this is something I hear over and over again both in the forums and at local events.

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To me one of the best things about geocaching is that it gets you outdoors and walking .....if I wanted to sit in front of a computer and run search engines, etc I could stay at work.

Why do puzzles haters always use this invlaid premis as an argument?

 

There is not an either/or relationship between caching and solving puzzles. People choose what to do with their free time...some even solve puzzles rather than watch tv!

 

Some people do crosswords and word searches in the morning paper but are generally not called out for not getting outdoors...

 

1. The premiss is not invalid.

 

2. There have always been games that are essentially indoors....jigsaw, crosswords, etc are fine if that is what you like. The advent of puzzle caches adulterated what had previously had been an outdoor activity.

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To me one of the best things about geocaching is that it gets you outdoors and walking .....if I wanted to sit in front of a computer and run search engines, etc I could stay at work.

Why do puzzles haters always use this invlaid premis as an argument?

 

There is not an either/or relationship between caching and solving puzzles. People choose what to do with their free time...some even solve puzzles rather than watch tv!

 

Some people do crosswords and word searches in the morning paper but are generally not called out for not getting outdoors...

 

I definitely share MKFmly's opinion on this as this is something I hear over and over again both in the forums and at local events.

 

The whole premise of geocaching is to get outdoors, just take a look at the picture on their home page.

 

What is geocaching?

 

Geocaching is a real-world, outdoor treasure hunting game using GPS-enabled devices. Participants navigate to a specific set of GPS coordinates and then attempt to find the geocache (container) hidden at that location.

 

Puzzles promote sitting in front of a computer, sometime for hours on end, quite the opposite.

Edited by Roman!
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To me one of the best things about geocaching is that it gets you outdoors and walking .....if I wanted to sit in front of a computer and run search engines, etc I could stay at work.

Why do puzzles haters always use this invlaid premis as an argument?

 

There is not an either/or relationship between caching and solving puzzles. People choose what to do with their free time...some even solve puzzles rather than watch tv!

 

Some people do crosswords and word searches in the morning paper but are generally not called out for not getting outdoors...

 

Exactly.

 

In fact, why isn't Bamboozle outside right now instead of posting online about how he doesn't want to be sitting in front of a computer?

 

Because it was raining.

 

Most of my postings, as now , are done from work. If I'm not working and the weather is good the last place you'll find me is inside a building ( other than a restaurant :rolleyes: )....I don't nightcache so some postings happen then.

 

I targeted no individual answering the OP re puzzles.......I listed the negatives regarding puzzles and also how puzzles could be made fun for everyone.

I would suggest the pro puzzle folks be more positive and simply post why they think puzzles are so great and what they have added to a nice hobby.

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How many ? caches are there within 10 miles? (16 km) 20

How many ? caches are there within 25 miles? (40 km) 221

How far to hit the 1000 cache threshold? I don't know how to find this as a basic member. It tops out at 80 km / 50 mi, with 584.

What percentage have you found? Found 4 of the 584 (6.8%), own 2 (3.4%), neither of which are hard.

In your opinion are there too many ? caches? Too many of the kind I don't like; not enough of the kind I do.

 

*shrug*

Edited by TriciaG
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New questions, answer like this:

 

How many ? caches are there within 10 miles?

How many ? caches are there within 25 miles?

How far to hit the 1000 cache threshold?

What percentage have you found?

In your opinion are there too many ? caches?

 

 

Us:

36 within 10 miles

54 within 25 miles (includes a geo-art series)

82 miles to hit 1,000

found 36.7% within 25 miles

no, but would love to see challenge, bonus & Wherigo with separate icons.

 

Mrs. Car54

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I listed the negatives regarding puzzles and also how puzzles could be made fun for everyone.

 

No, your suggested "solution" would ruin the fun for many and would refrain many puzzle cache owners from investing a lot of work into their puzzle caches.

Moreover, your suggestion does not take into account that many puzzle caches have multiple stages.

 

I would suggest the pro puzzle folks be more positive and simply post why they think puzzles are so great and what they have added to a nice hobby.

 

Have a look at AnnaMoritz's posting where some reasons and links to unique ?-caches are provided.

 

There are so many mystery caches where the major part of the puzzle solving takes part during the oudoor hunt and not inside rooms.

Still it's pretty much the same audience that enjoys solving a particular type of puzzle regardless of where the puzzle is solved. The outdoor aspect of geocaching does not collide with

playing around with treasure maps, decoding cyphers, trying to figure out what mysterious clues mean that are found during the fieldwork etc.

Of course such caches are not well suited when someone just wants to go for a relaxing walk, but it's not an issue of spending your time outdoors or indoors, but

rather of your personal preferences, aversions, strong and weak points.

 

There are different reasons why people enjoy geocaching or a particular cache. Some enjoy searching 2 hours for a cache with devilish camouflage, others enjoy if they have tp spend 8 hours for solving many

challenging tasks (both puzzles and physically challenging ones, like climbing, diving etc) in order to finally arrive at the final container (which gets absolutely meaningless if one just visits the final such caches are hidden to provide an adventure on the way and not to provide cachers who do not like such adventures with a further find). The Sudoku puzzle caches with a final where you find a film can at traffic sign are of course not the type of puzzle caches that would dramatically lose when your suggestion were implemented. More complex mystery caches definitely would lose however all what really makes up those caches.

 

Cezanne

Edited by cezanne
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I would suggest the pro puzzle folks be more positive and simply post why they think puzzles are so great and what they have added to a nice hobby.

 

1. A little variety and creativity in the game makes it more interesting. Everyone is different, and some of us crave intellectual challenge in addition to the physical challenge.

 

2. Mystery/unknown/puzzles (and multis, for that matter) can be used to encourage people to interact with a place in a different way instead of just having them walk straight to the cache.

 

3. They reduce traffic to a geocache because they deter people who don't like and/or can't solve puzzles.

 

I am a person who enjoys puzzles and multis, but the vast majority of my finds are traditionals because there are just so many of them out there. I just don't understand why the presence of other cache types is so bothersome. Filter them out if you don't like them. It's a big, big world, and surely there are other spaces you can use to place the caches you like. Not all caches are for all people.

Once again, for those at the back:

 

Not all caches are for all people.

 

Say it with me now:

 

Not all caches are for all people.

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The whole premise of geocaching is to get outdoors, just take a look at the picture on their home page.

Geocaching involves interacting with Internet to prepare for and report on your foray outside. If the whole premise were to get outdoors, it would be called "hiking".

 

If you don't like puzzles, then just admit it. There's no shame in not liking puzzles. Stop trying to argue that solving puzzles takes time away from geocaching, and therefore there's something wrong with people that solve puzzles instead of geocaching 24 hours a day.

 

I would suggest the pro puzzle folks be more positive and simply post why they think puzzles are so great and what they have added to a nice hobby.

I like to solve puzzles. Puzzles are so great because they're fun to solve. Puzzles have added the fun of solving puzzles to a nice hobby.

 

Now it's your turn: tell me why you think hiking is so great and what hiking has added to a nice hobby.

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The whole premise of geocaching is to get outdoors, just take a look at the picture on their home page.

Geocaching involves interacting with Internet to prepare for and report on your foray outside. If the whole premise were to get outdoors, it would be called "hiking".

 

If you don't like puzzles, then just admit it. There's no shame in not liking puzzles. Stop trying to argue that solving puzzles takes time away from geocaching, and therefore there's something wrong with people that solve puzzles instead of geocaching 24 hours a day.

 

Let's also consider the fact that the entire time one is out hiking/searching for the cache, there is a fair degree of reliance on an electronic device to get them there and help them find it. Hiking purists might argue that electronics like GPSrs, smartphones and SPOTs have taken away from the adventure of being outdoors in nature.

 

I would suggest the pro puzzle folks be more positive and simply post why they think puzzles are so great and what they have added to a nice hobby.

I like to solve puzzles. Puzzles are so great because they're fun to solve. Puzzles have added the fun of solving puzzles to a nice hobby.

 

Now it's your turn: tell me why you think hiking is so great and what hiking has added to a nice hobby.

 

Honestly, one really cannot argue effectively against having puzzle caches. Taking time away from being outdoors? Unless you are homeless, you are not outdoors 24/7. Unless the weather is perfect and the sun is shining year-round, you are not outside 24/7. Unless you are the healthiest person on earth with an immune system impervious to infection, you are not outside hiking 24/7.

 

What's wrong with just saying you don't like or are not good at solving puzzles? I actually am willing to admit that I'm not all that great at solving puzzles. I do enjoy coming up with new ones, however. Criticizing others who create or solve puzzles, telling them they are not 'authentic' geocachers or are spoiling the game is honestly tiring and a bit silly. Arguing the merits and definciencies of certain puzzles or certain types of puzzles is a discussion worth having.

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I'd be very interested in finding out how many of the Mystery/Puzzle (Mystery/Unknown) caches within a radius are 1. Challenges 2. "Bonus" caches. I think this will help us put into perspective how many actual "Puzzles" there are.

 

For me, I have to go at least 70 miles to find a "large" number of actual puzzles. In fact, there are very few "challenge caches" near me in Homer, AK. I'd have to go over 120 miles to find any "challenge caches" of any notable amount. But, that's not true for other areas.

 

I know it's not on topic, but I think this might show how helpful a new icon/type might be for "challenge caches" might be for searches, maps, and planning a caching trip.

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The whole premise of geocaching is to get outdoors, just take a look at the picture on their home page.

Geocaching involves interacting with Internet to prepare for and report on your foray outside. If the whole premise were to get outdoors, it would be called "hiking".

 

If you don't like puzzles, then just admit it. There's no shame in not liking puzzles. Stop trying to argue that solving puzzles takes time away from geocaching, and therefore there's something wrong with people that solve puzzles instead of geocaching 24 hours a day.

 

Let's also consider the fact that the entire time one is out hiking/searching for the cache, there is a fair degree of reliance on an electronic device to get them there and help them find it. Hiking purists might argue that electronics like GPSrs, smartphones and SPOTs have taken away from the adventure of being outdoors in nature.

 

I would suggest the pro puzzle folks be more positive and simply post why they think puzzles are so great and what they have added to a nice hobby.

I like to solve puzzles. Puzzles are so great because they're fun to solve. Puzzles have added the fun of solving puzzles to a nice hobby.

 

Now it's your turn: tell me why you think hiking is so great and what hiking has added to a nice hobby.

 

Honestly, one really cannot argue effectively against having puzzle caches. Taking time away from being outdoors? Unless you are homeless, you are not outdoors 24/7. Unless the weather is perfect and the sun is shining year-round, you are not outside 24/7. Unless you are the healthiest person on earth with an immune system impervious to infection, you are not outside hiking 24/7.

 

What's wrong with just saying you don't like or are not good at solving puzzles? I actually am willing to admit that I'm not all that great at solving puzzles. I do enjoy coming up with new ones, however. Criticizing others who create or solve puzzles, telling them they are not 'authentic' geocachers or are spoiling the game is honestly tiring and a bit silly. Arguing the merits and definciencies of certain puzzles or certain types of puzzles is a discussion worth having.

I'd be really interested in seeing puzzles and their related caches have owners who welcome the opportunity to teach people how to solve their puzzle if need be. I don't mean a full-on solution or walkthrough.

 

What I mean is that I remember when I joined this site and started working on puzzles around my area. Some were "easy" enough, and others were real brain busters. I'd email owners for a nudge, and they more often-than-not obliged happily. As time went on, I would ask some other cachers for nudges, and be greeted with a brick wall reply. Even when I could provide details of where I was at I wouldn't even be able to get a "yup, you're on the right track" response.

 

This is where I think we all have an opportunity to de-tune our reluctance to offer help in finding caches. This even goes for Traditionals and Multis. The mentality shifted at some point to hide caches that were difficult for geocachers to find. That shift left what was more about making geocaches difficult for "muggles" to find, and with owners welcoming feedback and an opportunity to share some knowledge.

 

I mean, without some teaching from user Trivial Pursuits about cyphers and the like, I'd have no idea they existed, let alone how to solve one. He really embraced that lightbulb moment when I had it--it was encouraging and helpful, and I appreciate it still today.

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The whole premise of geocaching is to get outdoors, just take a look at the picture on their home page.

Geocaching involves interacting with Internet to prepare for and report on your foray outside. If the whole premise were to get outdoors, it would be called "hiking".

 

If you don't like puzzles, then just admit it. There's no shame in not liking puzzles. Stop trying to argue that solving puzzles takes time away from geocaching, and therefore there's something wrong with people that solve puzzles instead of geocaching 24 hours a day.

 

Let's also consider the fact that the entire time one is out hiking/searching for the cache, there is a fair degree of reliance on an electronic device to get them there and help them find it. Hiking purists might argue that electronics like GPSrs, smartphones and SPOTs have taken away from the adventure of being outdoors in nature.

 

I would suggest the pro puzzle folks be more positive and simply post why they think puzzles are so great and what they have added to a nice hobby.

I like to solve puzzles. Puzzles are so great because they're fun to solve. Puzzles have added the fun of solving puzzles to a nice hobby.

 

Now it's your turn: tell me why you think hiking is so great and what hiking has added to a nice hobby.

 

Honestly, one really cannot argue effectively against having puzzle caches. Taking time away from being outdoors? Unless you are homeless, you are not outdoors 24/7. Unless the weather is perfect and the sun is shining year-round, you are not outside 24/7. Unless you are the healthiest person on earth with an immune system impervious to infection, you are not outside hiking 24/7.

 

What's wrong with just saying you don't like or are not good at solving puzzles? I actually am willing to admit that I'm not all that great at solving puzzles. I do enjoy coming up with new ones, however. Criticizing others who create or solve puzzles, telling them they are not 'authentic' geocachers or are spoiling the game is honestly tiring and a bit silly. Arguing the merits and definciencies of certain puzzles or certain types of puzzles is a discussion worth having.

I'd be really interested in seeing puzzles and their related caches have owners who welcome the opportunity to teach people how to solve their puzzle if need be. I don't mean a full-on solution or walkthrough.

 

What I mean is that I remember when I joined this site and started working on puzzles around my area. Some were "easy" enough, and others were real brain busters. I'd email owners for a nudge, and they more often-than-not obliged happily. As time went on, I would ask some other cachers for nudges, and be greeted with a brick wall reply. Even when I could provide details of where I was at I wouldn't even be able to get a "yup, you're on the right track" response.

 

This is where I think we all have an opportunity to de-tune our reluctance to offer help in finding caches. This even goes for Traditionals and Multis. The mentality shifted at some point to hide caches that were difficult for geocachers to find. That shift left what was more about making geocaches difficult for "muggles" to find, and with owners welcoming feedback and an opportunity to share some knowledge.

 

I mean, without some teaching from user Trivial Pursuits about cyphers and the like, I'd have no idea they existed, let alone how to solve one. He really embraced that lightbulb moment when I had it--it was encouraging and helpful, and I appreciate it still today.

 

I'm actually very willing to offer reasonable assistance on any of my puzzles...once it's been solved the way I intended. I have bent that rule on occasion - mostly just to tell someone "no, that's not the right track to pursue". For me it's just about knowing that someone out there "gets it" and can actually figure it out the way I had hoped they would. Thing about each of my puzzles, the method of solving it is often very simple, so hints and nudges are difficult to provide without giving it all away. I avoid ciphers and the types of puzzles that involve copying and pasting into some online service.

 

I just look at it like a new dimension to the game. If Groundspeak intended it to ONLY be hiking for an ammo can using posted coordinates, they never would have created this whole new type of cache that allows for coordinates to be hidden in a puzzle. These folks cite the GC.com website description, but completely ignore that fact.

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The whole premise of geocaching is to get outdoors, just take a look at the picture on their home page.

Geocaching involves interacting with Internet to prepare for and report on your foray outside. If the whole premise were to get outdoors, it would be called "hiking".

 

If you don't like puzzles, then just admit it. There's no shame in not liking puzzles. Stop trying to argue that solving puzzles takes time away from geocaching, and therefore there's something wrong with people that solve puzzles instead of geocaching 24 hours a day.

 

I would suggest the pro puzzle folks be more positive and simply post why they think puzzles are so great and what they have added to a nice hobby.

I like to solve puzzles. Puzzles are so great because they're fun to solve. Puzzles have added the fun of solving puzzles to a nice hobby.

 

Now it's your turn: tell me why you think hiking is so great and what hiking has added to a nice hobby.

 

First of all hiking takes as much, if not more planning than geocaching.

 

It's great you enjoy puzzles, I used to enjoy them too when I was younger, I just think puzzles (Those that are meant to be solved at home) have nothing to do with what geocaching is about. Field puzzles, although most I have/would skip I'm not really against.

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To me one of the best things about geocaching is that it gets you outdoors and walking .....if I wanted to sit in front of a computer and run search engines, etc I could stay at work.

Why do puzzles haters always use this invlaid premis as an argument?

 

There is not an either/or relationship between caching and solving puzzles. People choose what to do with their free time...some even solve puzzles rather than watch tv!

 

Some people do crosswords and word searches in the morning paper but are generally not called out for not getting outdoors...

 

1. The premiss is not invalid.

 

2. There have always been games that are essentially indoors....jigsaw, crosswords, etc are fine if that is what you like. The advent of puzzle caches adulterated what had previously had been an outdoor activity.

I tend to view puzzle caches as being directed at the nerdy puzzle solver to encourage them to get outdoors. They can sit at home and work on puzzle caches but eventually the have to go out and find them (at least if they want to get WIGAS points). There seem to be plenty of non-puzzle caches for the outdoor types who don't care to sit around and solve puzzles. What seems odd is that puzzle "haters" seem to have a premise that they have to find every cache.

 

Of course this goes to my belief that Groundspeak has no good reason to include the rule against spoilers in the TOUs. There will be people who feel they have to find all caches and will trade puzzle answers or find some other ways to get coordinates. The puzzle "nerds" will still be attracted to solve the puzzle and, so long as they are able to avoid the spoilers, they are not effected by people who do use the spoilers. Unless a puzzle owner is using a puzzle to reduce the traffic by having fewer people look for their cache, they shouldn't care if there are spoilers either.

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What seems odd is that puzzle "haters" seem to have a premise that they have to find every cache.

 

 

If I didn't find every cache I'd have to travel further to go caching, wasting gas and poluting the air, I thought cachers are supposed to be environmentally friendly.

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I just find it funny that geocaching, which I'm sure we can all agree on, is meant to be an outdoor activity while puzzles are the complete opposite and are primarily an indoor activity.

Kinda reminds me of clamato juice, just a weird combination.

 

 

Shame on me for being drawn into this discussion, this thread is not about my opinions on puzzle caches so let's get back on topic, this is my last post in this thread about my opinions on them.

 

If you'd like to hear more please create a new thread and Ill be happy to participate.

Edited by Roman!
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What seems odd is that puzzle "haters" seem to have a premise that they have to find every cache.

 

 

If I didn't find every cache I'd have to travel further to go caching, wasting gas and poluting the air, I thought cachers are supposed to be environmentally friendly.

 

Eventually, you will have to travel anyway, unless you expect local cachers to archive old caches and create new caches at a certain rate.

 

Not all caches are for all people.

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I just find it funny that geocaching, which I'm sure we can all agree on, is meant to be an outdoor activity while puzzles are the complete opposite and are primarily an indoor activity.

 

Looking up appropriate geocaches, logging finds on geocaches, and discussing geocaching are all significant elements of the game that, for me anyway, take place primarily indoors.

 

While mystery/unknown caches may include a portion that involves work done indoors, they are placed outdoors.

 

Why is a parking lot micro that I can grab without leaving my car somehow more valid than a mystery cache that involves solving a puzzle and hiking to the final?

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I just find it funny that geocaching, which I'm sure we can all agree on, is meant to be an outdoor activity while puzzles are the complete opposite and are primarily an indoor activity.

 

As I said before, if Groundspeak meant it to ONLY be an outdoor activity, they wouldn't have allowed or encouraged puzzles to proliferate, or discussed them in a blog. They wouldn't have created a whole geocacher personality type. They wouldn't have created a souvenir, either.

 

I'm not all that wild about virtuals or earthcaches and the Geocaching 101 quote sort of ignores their existence:

Geocaching is a real-world, outdoor treasure hunting game using GPS-enabled devices. Participants navigate to a specific set of GPS coordinates and then attempt to find the geocache (container) hidden at that location.

 

I'm not particularly puzzled by their existence, though.

Edited by J Grouchy
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Shame on me for being drawn into this discussion, this thread is not about my opinions on puzzle caches so let's get back on topic, this is my last post in this thread about my opinions on them.

 

If you'd like to hear more please create a new thread and Ill be happy to participate.

 

You should not have added the question on how many are too many because this question will always induce a sort of debate which now takes place here.

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How many ? caches are there within 10 miles? 5 (1 Bonus, 4 Puzzles)

How many ? caches are there within 25 miles? 6 additional [2 Bonus (each with missing feeder caches) and 1 Night cache (disabled) + 3 puzzle caches]

How far to hit the 1000 cache threshold? 38 total ? caches within a 50 mile radius - 1 Challenge Cache

What percentage have you found? 27 % found, most are very near the 50 mile distance from my location

In your opinion are there too many ? caches? Not around here 38 ? out of 3219 total caches in a 50 mile radius

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I'd be really interested in seeing puzzles and their related caches have owners who welcome the opportunity to teach people how to solve their puzzle if need be. I don't mean a full-on solution or walkthrough.

 

What I mean is that I remember when I joined this site and started working on puzzles around my area. Some were "easy" enough, and others were real brain busters. I'd email owners for a nudge, and they more often-than-not obliged happily. As time went on, I would ask some other cachers for nudges, and be greeted with a brick wall reply. Even when I could provide details of where I was at I wouldn't even be able to get a "yup, you're on the right track" response.

 

This is where I think we all have an opportunity to de-tune our reluctance to offer help in finding caches. This even goes for Traditionals and Multis. The mentality shifted at some point to hide caches that were difficult for geocachers to find. That shift left what was more about making geocaches difficult for "muggles" to find, and with owners welcoming feedback and an opportunity to share some knowledge.

 

I mean, without some teaching from user Trivial Pursuits about cyphers and the like, I'd have no idea they existed, let alone how to solve one. He really embraced that lightbulb moment when I had it--it was encouraging and helpful, and I appreciate it still today.

 

I agree with you NeverSummer. It's great when puzzle COs are quick to help and generous with their help. On a couple of occasions COs have given up on me after several email exchanges and just gave me the answer. =} A few have given me cryptic answers to help, but I'm just not getting it (and darn it, I can't wear them down so that they'll just give me the answer). I usually end up putting those on my ignore list or never get around to continuing my efforts with the puzzle.

 

We have 2 puzzle caches. I made them because it was a creative process for me - both creating the container and thinking up an entertaining but easy puzzle to go with them; the unique containers are fairly sturdy but I'm not sure how much they'll hold up to multiple visits a week so this way they should last longer (hopefully at least a year) before I need to replace them.

 

One thing about owning puzzles - the visits are minimal. I'm lucky to get one visit every 2 months. Low D numbers and I changed the hint (based on feedback I'm getting from finders) to make it easier but still very little activity.

 

I personally don't like puzzle caches where you have to read the owner's mind, or have at least a Bachelor's degree in a subject (especially math), or stumble upon the only website/database that will give you the answer, or puzzles that take hours to solve, or a puzzle that ends with a carppy cache experience (bison tube hanging on a fence next to a parking lot).

 

And finally, we have power trails of puzzle caches all around my location. But most of those are Challenge caches. Whole rail to trail systems that I will never get to enjoy caching on. But that's true for most PTs - usually whole trails taken up by poorly maintained leaky caches, which I boycott because it will make the whole experience on the trail frustrating and gross.

 

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Interest stats on here!

10 mi. = 65

25 mi. = 115

1000 caches = 99 mi.

Percentage found: 2.75%

 

No, there's not too many. Mostly I don't bother with them. That works for me.

 

What I really like, though, are field puzzles. Fairly easy field puzzles that are designed to make the finder laugh rather than exercise much in the way of brainpower.

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What I mean is that I remember when I joined this site and started working on puzzles around my area. Some were "easy" enough, and others were real brain busters. I'd email owners for a nudge, and they more often-than-not obliged happily. As time went on, I would ask some other cachers for nudges, and be greeted with a brick wall reply. Even when I could provide details of where I was at I wouldn't even be able to get a "yup, you're on the right track" response.

 

That's really too bad. I am always more than happy to help people along to solving my puzzles, as one of the criteria I set for them is that they be educational.

 

Puzzle hiders who make ridiculously hard puzzles just to feel superior to those who cannot solve them annoy me just as much as they annoy you. IMO, any puzzle that has been out a year or more with no solvers is likely a really bad puzzle.

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Let's all consider where Roman's (and others on this thread) proposal would lead.

 

Since he says that the idea of caching is to get people outside and hiking, let's go all the way and change the rules for all caches, not just puzzles.

 

So here is what Roman's ideal world would look like:

 

  • No drive-up caches. Every cache must require at least a 1 km hike to reach.
  • Caches on paved trails accessible to bicycles would require a 5 km ride to reach.
  • No event caches unless they also require a hike.
  • No power trails, unless they have a significant hike to reach the first cache.
  • No urban caches or caches within 1 km of the nearest road (paved or unpaved).
  • Exceptions can be made if you can prove that the cache cannot be reached from the nearest road without a significant effort (crossing a major river, etc.)
  • Cache listings must include a picture of the cache in situ so that all seekers can find the cache. After all, the purpose of the site is for people to find caches, right?

I am pretty sure that most of those whining about puzzle caches would not like that set of rules. Which is why I have concluded that their main goal is to figure out how to ruin the game for other people who aren't exactly like them.

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Let's all consider where Roman's (and others on this thread) proposal would lead.

 

Since he says that the idea of caching is to get people outside and hiking, let's go all the way and change the rules for all caches, not just puzzles.

 

So here is what Roman's ideal world would look like:

 

  • No drive-up caches. Every cache must require at least a 1 km hike to reach.
  • Caches on paved trails accessible to bicycles would require a 5 km ride to reach.
  • No event caches unless they also require a hike.
  • No power trails, unless they have a significant hike to reach the first cache.
  • No urban caches or caches within 1 km of the nearest road (paved or unpaved).
  • Exceptions can be made if you can prove that the cache cannot be reached from the nearest road without a significant effort (crossing a major river, etc.)
  • Cache listings must include a picture of the cache in situ so that all seekers can find the cache. After all, the purpose of the site is for people to find caches, right?

I am pretty sure that most of those whining about puzzle caches would not like that set of rules. Which is why I have concluded that their main goal is to figure out how to ruin the game for other people who aren't exactly like them.

 

Since we are not discussing my feelings on puzzles I'll reply.

 

Drive ups get you out of the house at the very least.

 

Biking a paved trail is an outdoor activity no matter how far you go.

 

Event caches are generally outside and those that aren't still get you out of your house and away from the computer.

 

I assume you have no clue how much energy it takes to do a power trail, if all you did was PTs on a daily basis you'd be one fit and healthy person.

 

No matter how close to a road an urban cache is, you're still getting off your but and outdoors.

 

Spoiler pics, I wouldn't complain about, but you're way off on all the other stuff.

Edited by Roman!
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Let's all consider where Roman's (and others on this thread) proposal would lead.

 

Since he says that the idea of caching is to get people outside and hiking, let's go all the way and change the rules for all caches, not just puzzles.

 

So here is what Roman's ideal world would look like:

 

  • No drive-up caches. Every cache must require at least a 1 km hike to reach.
  • Caches on paved trails accessible to bicycles would require a 5 km ride to reach.
  • No event caches unless they also require a hike.
  • No power trails, unless they have a significant hike to reach the first cache.
  • No urban caches or caches within 1 km of the nearest road (paved or unpaved).
  • Exceptions can be made if you can prove that the cache cannot be reached from the nearest road without a significant effort (crossing a major river, etc.)
  • Cache listings must include a picture of the cache in situ so that all seekers can find the cache. After all, the purpose of the site is for people to find caches, right?

I am pretty sure that most of those whining about puzzle caches would not like that set of rules. Which is why I have concluded that their main goal is to figure out how to ruin the game for other people who aren't exactly like them.

You're probably exaggerating what Roman! means when he calls geocaching an outdoor activity.

 

I think that back in 2000/2001, part of the appeal of geocaching was it combined techy stuff with outdoors stuff. Not only could you use your GPS unit to navigate to the cache, but you used the nascent world wide web to exchange information about caches you had hidden and caches you had searched for. So this new activity attracted people who enjoyed both getting outdoors to explore new places and people who enjoyed computers as well as satellite/radio technology. (The HAM Radio sub-forum is a remnant of that time). It was only natural that significant number of these people also enjoyed puzzles - including as fair number with an interest in cryptography. So puzzle caches were bound to happen.

 

In the early days Groundspeak chose to highlight that their website, unlike many others, encouraged people to get outside and exercise. They were of course by no means alone. There were travel sites, hiking sites, mountain biking sites, extreme sports sites, etx. But Geocaching seem to retain more of a techy nerd image, and no doubt puzzles added to this.

 

What has happened is that geocaching has become more mainstream. Smartphone tecnology has put the ability to used technogoly in a outdoor activity into everyone's hands. You don't need to be an tech expert or have a special interest in satellite communications to geocache or to play any of other location bases games that are now available. This has certainly reduced the percentage of geocachers who like to solve puzzles, and has increased the number who think that puzzles are totally unrealated to geocaching.

 

I tend to agree with fizzymagic, that a variety of kinds of caches (including his precious Challenge caches) means you can appeal to more people. Not everyone is going to like every kind of geocache and it will be natural for some people to say there are too many of one kind or another and not enough of the kind they like, but we're better off with different kinds. fizzymagic and I may disagree on whether there are times when Groundspeak needs set some limits in the guidelines, but I think we agree that more choices is generally better (but see Barry Schwartz for a different opinion).

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What I mean is that I remember when I joined this site and started working on puzzles around my area. Some were "easy" enough, and others were real brain busters. I'd email owners for a nudge, and they more often-than-not obliged happily. As time went on, I would ask some other cachers for nudges, and be greeted with a brick wall reply. Even when I could provide details of where I was at I wouldn't even be able to get a "yup, you're on the right track" response.

 

That's really too bad. I am always more than happy to help people along to solving my puzzles, as one of the criteria I set for them is that they be educational.

 

Puzzle hiders who make ridiculously hard puzzles just to feel superior to those who cannot solve them annoy me just as much as they annoy you. IMO, any puzzle that has been out a year or more with no solvers is likely a really bad puzzle.

It's a mentality that I've never understood. I think that geocaches are placed to be found, even if they are a difficult puzzle or a LPC. When an owner places a cache with a puzzle attached to it, I would hope that they would at least want to help folks get an understanding of what might help the cache get found.

 

Sometimes that means waiting until the first solution/finder has happened. Oftentimes that was when I would get a nudge from owners who I'd been communicating with in those earlier days. I'd use the time before a first solution/find on my puzzles to tune the cache description and hints. I could count on feedback from those who tried to solve the puzzle as it went along--geocheckers weren't in common use yet, so owners and seekers had to talk to each other via email to confirm coordinates, hide location, etc. (insert "Those were the days..." clip here)

 

The problem comes when someone decides to hide the "most difficult" cache they can, and won't offer any help even after one shows them the steps they've taken, and is asking for confirmation that they're on the right track. It's a nuanced game to play, but there is a way to give hints without all-out giving away a puzzle solution or hide location.

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You're probably exaggerating what Roman! means when he calls geocaching an outdoor activity.

 

 

I do not agree. In my opinion fizzymagic brought it to the point. It appears to me that what Roman! really focuses on are caches that he enjoys and not on the physical activity and outdoor time involved.

 

According to all what he wrote in this forum, he prefers 20 drive in traditionals to one long hiking multi cache and parking lot hides that involve no walk at all to puzzle caches that involve a 10 km hike.

 

Moreover, separating indoor and outdoor is not any longer as easy as it might once have been when most caches were hidden in rural areas.

I would not dare to say that one hour spent in searching for a nano hide in an urban setting along a road with a lot of traffic fits an outdoor hobby better than solving a puzzle in a nice rural garden (with modern technology the picture of people sitting in front of their PCs in closed rooms is not necessarily adequate any longer).

 

Cezanne

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You're probably exaggerating what Roman! means when he calls geocaching an outdoor activity.

 

 

I do not agree. In my opinion fizzymagic brought it to the point. It appears to me that what Roman! really focuses on are caches that he enjoys and not on the physical activity and outdoor time involved.

 

According to all what he wrote in this forum, he prefers 20 drive in traditionals to one long hiking multi cache and parking lot hides that involve no walk at all to puzzle caches that involve a 10 km hike.

 

Moreover, separating indoor and outdoor is not any longer as easy as it might once have been when most caches were hidden in rural areas.

I would not dare to say that one hour spent in searching for a nano hide in an urban setting along a road with a lot of traffic fits an outdoor hobby better than solving a puzzle in a nice rural garden (with modern technology the picture of people sitting in front of their PCs in closed rooms is not necessarily adequate any longer).

 

Cezanne

 

I do not agree with you, I like hiking and biking as well as other outdoor activities such as paragliding but given a choice of 2 equal long hikes, one has a long multi and the other a dozen trads, I'll take the latter every time. I actually enjoy finding caches, I don't enjoy trying to figure out where GZ is.

 

I have yet to meet anyone in a garden with a computer spending an hour to solve a puzzle cache, I'd be impressed, but if think it's safe to say most times they are solved at home.

Edited by Roman!
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The assumption is made that people who like puzzles sit at their computers for hours on end to reach solutions...I often print out many of them and solve them "on the go". Many are designed for that. There are many times in my busy day that there is a bit of free time (even while outdoors, as I am a Forester, my job revolves around hiking outdoors) and having a puzzle to solve exercises the mind.

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Are we all not at our computers or other electronic devices to comment in this thread?

 

Do we not need to log onto a website or App to log the caches once found? Do we not also log on to log trackables in and out of caches?

 

Let's just move on from the straw man that is discussing indoor/outdoor time for geocaching. The point of all physical caches is to find them, sign a logbook, and log it online. Whatever it takes to get there is moot (adj. (2)).

 

Mystery/Puzzle (was Mystery/Unknown; Unknown) caches have been around for some time, and with history and historical context as outlined in the last few posts above. I doubt that we'll see them go away. I think, especially, that the Mystery/Puzzle name was adapted from previous names for the "?" cache in a careful way (I'm as surprised as y'all are). So, that cache type will still be a hotbed for experimentation, but "puzzles" will always be a part of them. The "Mystery" part of the name lets Groundspeak, Vol Reviewers, and users have some wiggle room for new cache creations that adhere to the guidelines.

 

So, other than just checking to see how many "?" caches are on our maps at different ranges, what's the actual discussion Roman! is trying to incite herein? Hmm? :ph34r::laughing:

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I'm not really buying this "oh, I don't want to get sucked into this debate" line. You started this thread, you obviously had an agenda with it. My reply would be that "too many" is entirely subjective. Yes, I agree there can be too many...like if the puzzles outnumbered the traditionals. Find me one significant population where this is so.

 

For you, it's obvious that threshold is far lower. I'm very sorry not everything works out the way you want it to. Life sucks sometimes.

 

Me, I'd say that challenges are getting out of hand. I'm on board with the challenge points proposition...but I'm not ever going to suggest they shouldn't exist.

 

Suggesting that puzzle caches = fat lazy slobs in front of a computer is downright ridiculous.

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You're probably exaggerating what Roman! means when he calls geocaching an outdoor activity.

 

 

I do not agree. In my opinion fizzymagic brought it to the point. It appears to me that what Roman! really focuses on are caches that he enjoys and not on the physical activity and outdoor time involved.

 

According to all what he wrote in this forum, he prefers 20 drive in traditionals to one long hiking multi cache and parking lot hides that involve no walk at all to puzzle caches that involve a 10 km hike.

 

Moreover, separating indoor and outdoor is not any longer as easy as it might once have been when most caches were hidden in rural areas.

I would not dare to say that one hour spent in searching for a nano hide in an urban setting along a road with a lot of traffic fits an outdoor hobby better than solving a puzzle in a nice rural garden (with modern technology the picture of people sitting in front of their PCs in closed rooms is not necessarily adequate any longer).

 

Cezanne

 

I do not agree with you, I like hiking and biking as well as other outdoor activities such as paragliding but given a choice of 2 equal long hikes, one has a long multi and the other a dozen trads, I'll take the latter every time. I actually enjoy finding caches, I don't enjoy trying to figure out where GZ is.

 

I have yet to meet anyone in a garden with a computer spending an hour to solve a puzzle cache, I'd be impressed, but if think it's safe to say most times they are solved at home.

I spent a good number of time sitting on a remote island in the Bering Sea working on a puzzle for a geocache. I was outdoors, too!

 

Safe to say most are, indeed, solved at home. But that time spent is like a new person trying to decypher coordinates for a cache location without having a GPS, or knowledge of that coordinate datum, etc.

 

There are geocaches (the containers at coordinates), and geocaching (the act of going out and finding a geocache). There is also preparation for geocaching. That can involve packing your bags, sorting your TBs, gassing up the car, solving a puzzle, printing maps, etc. The "depth" of preparation for going geocaching to find a geocache varies by cache, and cache type.

 

mic drop

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Do we not need to log onto a website or App to log the caches once found? Do we not also log on to log trackables in and out of caches?

 

 

The answer is no. All those tasks as well as downloading caches can be done without ever logging on.

You miss my point, but that no bother.

 

When I sign out and try to view a cache, this is what I see:

59506b9a-24ff-4a36-b091-6c1294b20f4d.jpg?rnd=0.2513328

 

I can't see the information, download it, or view trackables.

 

I assume you are talking about the Intro App, then?

 

We have digressed. My point is that, even when seeking a cache or logging it, you must be either signed into the website, or using an App to do so. Some times you might log with an App "outside", but much logging occurs indoors (and often with a GSAK macro to upload a canned log ad nauseum from a power trail or vacation caching excursion...)

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Although it's hard to seperate out challenges, around here we actually don't have that many, I ran a PQ of a 1000 caches including found and unfound.

 

Out of those 1000:

 

201 are ? Caches of which I found 27 or 13%

 

47 are all other types except traditionals of which I found 11or 23%

 

752 are traditionas of which I found 282 or 37.5 %

 

So in my area just over 20% are ? Caches, I think that's high.

Edited by Roman!
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Do we not need to log onto a website or App to log the caches once found? Do we not also log on to log trackables in and out of caches?

 

 

The answer is no. All those tasks as well as downloading caches can be done without ever logging on.

You miss my point, but that no bother.

I think it's precisely the point. The smartphone changes the interaction between technology and getting outdoors. We can be connected now whereever we are. It's like the company my cousin and some of his friends founded and then sold to Facebook for $10M. Their idea was to create ad hoc social networks by people attending the same concert or baseball game. You'd be at some event with your smartphone and could share your impressions with others at the same event. You certainly could sit at home and participate, but the idea was to use the technology while you were actually there.

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Do we not need to log onto a website or App to log the caches once found? Do we not also log on to log trackables in and out of caches?

 

 

The answer is no. All those tasks as well as downloading caches can be done without ever logging on.

You miss my point, but that no bother.

I think it's precisely the point. The smartphone changes the interaction between technology and getting outdoors. We can be connected now whereever we are. It's like the company my cousin and some of his friends founded and then sold to Facebook for $10M. Their idea was to create ad hoc social networks by people attending the same concert or baseball game. You'd be at some event with your smartphone and could share your impressions with others at the same event. You certainly could sit at home and participate, but the idea was to use the technology while you were actually there.

No, that's Walts' point, which wasn't my point...but that's no bother. I agree with what you're saying, and judging by (y)our interpretation of what they said about what I said, I say I agree with Walts as well. Let's move along.

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Oh, and 54 Mystery/Puzzle caches within 100 miles of me. None are "Challenge Caches", either. I have found 11 of them.

 

There are 450 caches total within a 100 mile radius of me, 311 of which I have not yet found.

 

436 are true physical caches, and of that 369 are strictly the Traditional cache type.

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In our area puzzles are popular. I don't really like them because I can't solve most of them. A lot of them are not that fun to solve. There are however ones that are fun to solve and some of my favorites. We are getting better at solving some as after a while you can get a idea of what to do on some of them. I hate when I find the theme and can't get a solve on it still.

We put out a bunch of puzzles because if we didn't some of the local cachers we like would never find it. They only do puzzles. I like to have some around as well as there are times I can't be outdoors caching but can still be playing by working on a puzzle. I agree it can make placing caches a pain as it can be blocked and you don't know it.

As I have always said it is all a part of this game we all play. If I hide a cool cache and it is blocked by a puzzle I just go pick it up and work on the next one.

I know there was one time we went for a long hike up a mountain and they were almost all ammo cans. Should be great! But after about the 6th ammo can under a bush I started to almost get bored with it. Then we came across a micro that was cleverly hidden. It was actually refreshing and one of the caches I will remember most from that hike. We usually put out larger caches but I can respect the puzzles, letterboxes and other hides that change things up once in a while to keep it all interesting.

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If I hide a cool cache and it is blocked by a puzzle I just go pick it up and work on the next one.

 

I never thought of this till now but here thanks to the amazing wisdom of the Vancouver Parks Board all caches must be at least 500 meters apart and most parks are run by VPB.

 

I have noticed since they employed this rule last year new cache placement has gone down significantly.

 

So not only does the final of a puzzle cache (and a multi) take up a lot of real estate, but I'm sure many time the posted coordinates deter people from placing caches anywhere near so in effect a puzzle (and multi) can take up the real estate of two caches and up here where we don't have much flat room that is a lot.

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WOW Roman! I just stalked your profile (not something I usually do) and I have to say your geocaching for the last few years is really impressive! Keep up the good work and glad to have you playing. Surprised that 50% of your hides are actually ? even if they are challenges. I have a new respect for you as I had always kind of thought you were just trolling on this forum but you are actually really out there caching. You can complain here with all the caching you do. It is understandable to me now.

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I do not agree with you, I like hiking and biking as well as other outdoor activities such as paragliding but given a choice of 2 equal long hikes, one has a long multi and the other a dozen trads, I'll take the latter every time. I actually enjoy finding caches, I don't enjoy trying to figure out where GZ is.

 

I never claimed that you do not like hiking and biking. The point was that your suggestions like to eliminate puzzle caches or to make the final coordinates of puzzle caches and multi caches availabe to you are guided by your caching preferences and not by argument about the cachers' health.

 

Most urban traditionals require less physical activity than almost all puzzle caches in the countryside.

 

When it comes to physical activity, typically you end up with the largest outdoor times for multi caches which you do not like either. So I rather feel that for you it is about invested time per cache find and not on long outdoor times induced by geocaching. A single hiking multi cache can keep you busy/provide you with outdoor experience for a whole day or seven several days while you need you a whole lot of traditionals and much more driving to keep you busy with as many cache finds you wish to find during the same amount of time. You neither would need to find all caches in your area nor to drive any farther away when you used your caching time for a few caches that take much longer than the average caches.

 

 

I have yet to meet anyone in a garden with a computer spending an hour to solve a puzzle cache, I'd be impressed, but if think it's safe to say most times they are solved at home.

 

Apart from the fact that many people have a garden at home (at least in Europe) this does not need to be a contradiction. However, puzzles are often solved whereever someone finds time (it's like reading books, newspapers etc). Moreover, many puzzles can be solved in less than 1 hour with the right idea and knowledge.

Edited by cezanne
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I do not agree with you, I like hiking and biking as well as other outdoor activities such as paragliding but given a choice of 2 equal long hikes, one has a long multi and the other a dozen trads, I'll take the latter every time. I actually enjoy finding caches, I don't enjoy trying to figure out where GZ is.

 

I never claimed that you do not like hiking and biking. The point was that your suggestions like to eliminate puzzle caches or to make the final coordinates of puzzle caches and multi caches availabe to you are guided by your caching preferences and not by argument about the cachers' health.

 

Most urban traditionals require less physical activity than almost all puzzle caches in the countryside.

When it comes to physical activity, typically you end up with the largest outdoor times for multi caches which you do not like either. So I rather feel that for you it is about invested time per cache find and not on long outdoor times induced by geocaching.

 

I have yet to meet anyone in a garden with a computer spending an hour to solve a puzzle cache, I'd be impressed, but if think it's safe to say most times they are solved at home.

 

Apart from the fact that many people have a garden at home (at least in Europe) this does not need to be a contradiction. However, puzzles are often solved whereever someone finds time (it's like reading books, newspapers etc). Moreover, many puzzles can be solved in less than 1 hour with the right idea and knowledge.

 

Around here most puzzles are micros in trees in a park but we have a lot of really awesome traditionals.

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