No Trespassing Signs in Parking Lots

[+JL_HSTRE]

Something that has started cropping up in the last couple years where I live in Florida are No Trespassing signs posted around parking lots and shopping plazas. This is pretty weird to me: I always understood "No Trespassing" to meant something far more restrictive than "Keep out unless you are shopping here." (Regardless of the exact legal definition of "No Trespassing" I think using the term in this manner cheapens the sign's meaning.)

 

1) Is this a widespread thing in the US or mostly just a FL thing?

 

2) Urban caches are often placed in parking lots, often without explicit permission. Does the presence of a "No Trespassing" sign in a parking lot that is otherwise still open for use (i.e. not fenced off, not closed for construction, etc.) mean explicit permission is now required for that particular parking lot? Or should the parking lot be treated as completely off-limits to geocaching?

 

P.S. This post is in reference to no particular cache or incident. Also, please try to keep focused on the questions and not use this as an excuse to rant about how you think urban caching is terrible.

Edited September 13, 2014 by Joshism

[+NanCycle]

Something that has started cropping up in the last couple years where I live in Florida are No Trespassing signs posted around parking lots and shopping plazas. This is pretty weird to me: I always understood "No Trespassing" to meant something far more restrictive than "Keep out unless you are shopping here." (Regardless of the exact legal definition of "No Trespassing" I think using the term in this manner cheapens the sign's meaning.)

 

1) Is this a widespread thing in the US or mostly just a FL thing?

 

2) Urban caches are often placed in parking lots, often without explicit permission. Does the presence of a "No Trespassing" sign in a parking lot that is otherwise still open for use (i.e. not fenced off, not closed for construction, etc.) mean explicit permission is now required for that particular parking lot? Or should the parking lot be treated as completely off-limits to geocaching?

 

P.S. This post is in reference to no particular cache or incident. Also, please try to keep focused on the questions and not use this as an excuse to rant about how you think urban caching is terrible.

 

1 - I have not seen this in Colorado. I have seen signs that say effectively "No Parking unless you are shopping here."

 

2 - I would not hide a cache in such an area and I would be leery about hunting for one as well.

[Mr.Yuck]

Something that has started cropping up in the last couple years where I live in Florida are No Trespassing signs posted around parking lots and shopping plazas. This is pretty weird to me: I always understood "No Trespassing" to meant something far more restrictive than "Keep out unless you are shopping here." (Regardless of the exact legal definition of "No Trespassing" I think using the term in this manner cheapens the sign's meaning.)

 

1) Is this a widespread thing in the US or mostly just a FL thing?

 

2) Urban caches are often placed in parking lots, often without explicit permission. Does the presence of a "No Trespassing" sign in a parking lot that is otherwise still open for use (i.e. not fenced off, not closed for construction, etc.) mean explicit permission is now required for that particular parking lot? Or should the parking lot be treated as completely off-limits to geocaching?

 

P.S. This post is in reference to no particular cache or incident. Also, please try to keep focused on the questions and not use this as an excuse to rant about how you think urban caching is terrible.

 

Per what I've bolded, I guess I'll sit this one out then.

 

Just kidding. Oh gosh, I'm pretty sure we have those signs all over parking lots in New York. I too think of "no tresspassing" to be more restrictive than "keep out unless you're shopping here".

[+cerberus1]

Do the signs have hours?

 

I've seen, "No Trespassing After Hours" signs, where people aren't allowed to enter or remain on any business parking lot at any time that staying in or entering the lot is prohibited by the owner.

Many have 'em and oddly they're often inside the lot, on a light pole.

You'd have to trespass to see 'em.

[+cerberus1]

P.S. This post is in reference to no particular cache or incident. Also, please try to keep focused on the questions and not use this as an excuse to rant about how you think urban caching is terrible.

Per what I've bolded, I guess I'll sit this one out then.

I was thinking the same, but did manage to stay on topic even with the light pole.

[+niraD]

I haven't seen "No Trespassing" signs around parking lots, but I have seen variations of "Customer Parking Only" signs and "No Loitering" signs, and I've seen boilerplate signs with whatever legalese is required to allow cars to be towed if they park in a handicapped space without a permit, or if they park in a time-limited lot longer than the specified time. There are probably other boilerplate signs, but I generally don't pay attention to them. Who reads a sign with 100 words of boilerplate legalese?

[+dprovan]

2 - I would not hide a cache in such an area and I would be leery about hunting for one as well.

For me, this is more often an issue when I'm looking for a place to leave my car while I walk around the area. I do sometimes park near a cache in a parking lot, but more often the caches are somewhere else.

 

I don't recall any signs that specifically say "no trespassing", but I've seen signs that concisely and in large font make it clear that I'm not allowed to park there -- or, for that matter, even walk through -- unless I'm a customer. I generally ignore them as long as there's plenty of parking, conceptually prepared to walk into one of the stores if required. I assume they're legal artifacts more to protect the site from some kind of complications, not because anyone (other than some lawyer somewhere) really cares whether I park there as long as I'm not causing any trouble.

 

Although I keep expecting to see my car being towed away when I get back. And more and more I find myself looking for non-encumbered public parking, at parks, mostly, to avoid the issue.

[+uxorious]

 

I don't recall any signs that specifically say "no trespassing", but I've seen signs that concisely and in large font make it clear that I'm not allowed to park there -- or, for that matter, even walk through -- unless I'm a customer. I generally ignore them as long as there's plenty of parking, conceptually prepared to walk into one of the stores if required. I assume they're legal artifacts more to protect the site from some kind of complications, not because anyone (other than some lawyer somewhere) really cares whether I park there as long as I'm not causing any trouble.

 

There are places where tow companies have "spotters" who watch to see if you leave your vehicle and go into the business who owns the signs. If you park and go anywhere else, they automatically tow you. Or if you go into the place then go somewhere else and leave your car in the lot, they tow. The tow companies make a lot of money this way.

 

Where I live, the business don't seem to care that much. I have never been towed for parking and not going into the business. However, in the cities nearby, there are areas where they do tow. I have several friends who have been towed this way over the years.

[+geodarts]

Something that has started cropping up in the last couple years where I live in Florida are No Trespassing signs posted around parking lots and shopping plazas. This is pretty weird to me: I always understood "No Trespassing" to meant something far more restrictive than "Keep out unless you are shopping here." (Regardless of the exact legal definition of "No Trespassing" I think using the term in this manner cheapens the sign's meaning.)

 

1) Is this a widespread thing in the US or mostly just a FL thing?

 

2) Urban caches are often placed in parking lots, often without explicit permission. Does the presence of a "No Trespassing" sign in a parking lot that is otherwise still open for use (i.e. not fenced off, not closed for construction, etc.) mean explicit permission is now required for that particular parking lot? Or should the parking lot be treated as completely off-limits to geocaching?

 

 

In my area, it is fairly common to see parking lots with signs that grant permission only to patronize the intended business. Some may also restrict access to the lot only during business hours. There are jurisdictions that treat the latter as being the equivalent of a no trespassing sign and police will cite people accordingly.

 

I do not believe that property owners that grant access to their land only for a specific purpose open themselves up to uses that go beyond what they have permitted. For the purposes of caching, I never have seen that much difference between restricted access and other forms of no trespassing signs.

Edited September 14, 2014 by geodarts

[+Ben0w]

"As I went walking I saw a sign there

And on the sign it said "No Trespassing."

But on the other side it didn't say nothing,

That side was made for you and me."

-- Woody Guthrie, This Land Is Your Land

 

SCNR!

[+nikcap]

Trespassing laws confuse most people and they differ from state to state and town to town, but the underlining law in every trespassing law is to offer protections to land and property owners. Trespassing occurs when an individual enters onto property that is owned by another person without permission from the owner and/or conducts actions that are not permitted by the property owner. Most of the time, trespassing is a tort law, which means you cannot be prosecuted for it, however, there are situations where criminal charges can be brought against you for trespassing if your actions are a threat to the general public.

 

So, with that in mind, a cache placed in a parking lot, without the approval of the property owner can lead to a situation that is considered trespassing by the cache finder.

Of course, if the property owner has approved the cache to be placed in his/her/their parking lot with the understanding that geocachers will come and seek the cache, then all is good, even if a No Trespassing sign is present.

 

I think most people envision trespassing as some rowdy kids cutting through your back yard, but in public parks, driving a dump truck full of nitro-glycerin through the playground would also be considered trespassing. Since Geocaching falls between both examples, it can be hard to figure out where the activity fall on the scale.

 

In New Jersey, I've notice a variety of signs that say the parking is only for the given store pop up over the last few years. I suspect that the No Trespassing terminology is confusing to most people as it's typically interpreted as "you are not allowed here", so land owners have chosen to spell it out more clearly to indicate who is and who isn't welcomed on their property.

[+geodarts]

Today I noticed a sign at the entrance to a local center stating that permission is granted to enter for the purposes of shopping only, any other use requires permission of the center. It has not stopped containers from being placed there from time to time.

[+narcissa]

It shouldn't be an issue if the cache was placed with permission.

[+ras_oscar]

i'm going to speculate that a sign posted as described by the Op is likely installed to prohibit overnight parking. If the business is closed and your car is still there you get towed. Most business owners want ample available parking for their customers. They are loathe to risk offending one iof ntheir customers by accidently towing them.

[+BBWolf+3Pigs]

It shouldn't be an issue if the cache was placed with permission.

 

+1. It *is* private property after all.

[+J Grouchy]

I think it's odd that a "No Trespassing" sign would be posted FOR a parking lot. More often I see them posted at the edges of roads or lots intending to prevent people from walking onto a property or portion of a property...or at the drive entrance to a residence or sensitive area. I've seen plenty of signs indicating parking for patrons or guests only and there legally has to be certain language about booting/towing and fees and contact info, etc. etc. (here in Atlanta, at least).

 

If I came upon a driveway or gate that had a "No Trespassing" sign on it, though...I personally wouldn't cache there and would post a Note to the cache page about it (if others had not already done so). If I saw a similar sign in a parking lot, it would be a judgement call about how I felt it was being enforced and whether this cache was appropriately placed in an area easily accessible from where I parked. I would also check the map, description and logs to see if I was actually where the CO intended for me to access it from. On several occasions I have driven to what I thought was the easiest access point, only to find out that I should have approached it from another direction with better parking and easier terrain.

[4wheelin_fool]

I've noticed them in commercial parking lots around here. They are to prevent kids from congregating, drinking, peeling out, ect. and enables arrest without any prior warnings. I don't think geocachers should be affected unless they go after hours and are suspected using the game as a ruse for theft. Some people scrap metals from lamp posts and whatnot, and could theoretically say they were geocaching. Another use would be in the event of a bomb threat to avoid associated costs in the event it was a geocache. I suppose it may give some geocaches an added forbidden thrill.

[+jellis]

Me, I have been seeing some new ones pop up. It makes me a little nervous even to want to shop there.

[+narcissa]

I don't think geocachers should be affected unless they go after hours

 

Presuming there is permission for the cache they are seeking.

 

If not, they are, in fact, trespassing if they are on the property for a reason other than shopping.

[4wheelin_fool]

I don't think geocachers should be affected unless they go after hours

 

Presuming there is permission for the cache they are seeking.

 

If not, they are, in fact, trespassing if they are on the property for a reason other than shopping.

 

It doesn't matter if the cache has permission, any visits after hours are considered trespassing. If someone is there geocaching without permission under the signs during normal business hours, it likely would not affect them unless they created a problem.

[+sbell111]

My thinking is that if I am out looking for caches and come to a no trespassing sign, then I am going to leave. The existence of a parking lot doesn't change this.

[+narcissa]

My thinking is that if I am out looking for caches and come to a no trespassing sign, then I am going to leave. The existence of a parking lot doesn't change this.

 

Always the wisest course of action.

 

I certainly don't need to get into a showdown with a parking lot commissionaire over an LPC.

[4wheelin_fool]

My thinking is that if I am out looking for caches and come to a no trespassing sign, then I am going to leave. The existence of a parking lot doesn't change this.

 

So on a shopping trip to Lowes you discover the signs, so you immediately turn around and take your business elsewhere? That's where I've noticed them, along with a note indicating the lot is under video surveillance. I'm pretty sure that they would apply only if someone decided to hang out in the parking lot for an extended period of time, and especially if they brought a dozen freinds along.

Edited September 16, 2014 by 4wheelin_fool

[+narcissa]

My thinking is that if I am out looking for caches and come to a no trespassing sign, then I am going to leave. The existence of a parking lot doesn't change this.

 

So on a shopping trip to Lowes you discover the signs, so you immediately turn around and take your business elsewhere? That's where I've noticed them, along with a note indicating the lot is under video surveillance. I'm pretty sure that they would apply only if someone decided to hang out in the parking lot for an extended period of time, and especially if they brought a dozen freinds along.

 

It might also apply if that video surveillance happens to notice a pattern of people going to a particular lamppost, fiddling with it, and then leaving without visiting the store.

 

Legitimate shopping is not trespassing.

 

Geocaching on private property without permission is trespassing.

[4wheelin_fool]

Geocaching on private property without permission is trespassing.

 

In some cases it may be, but not in all cases. Property which is open to the public is generally accepted to be okay to visit, despite the intent. The signage adds limitations, but not necessarily to geocaching.

[+sbell111]

I've never seen a no trespassing sign that did not apply to geocachers.

[+narcissa]

Geocaching on private property without permission is trespassing.

 

In some cases it may be, but not in all cases. Property which is open to the public is generally accepted to be okay to visit, despite the intent. The signage adds limitations, but not necessarily to geocaching.

 

Visiting is not the same thing as hiding a container, and/or rifling around in search of said container.

 

To me, a "no trespassing" sign in a parking lot is a pretty unambiguous message.

[+thebruce0]

I'm in agreement that 'no trespassing' should imply 'do not geocache here'. Whether that's enforced by the owner or not, who knows. Sure, it may be safe to geocache in the lot - the signage may have been put up for some other context and they wouldn't care about geocaching activity - BUT it provides the owner the ability to enforce it. It's simply safer and more respectful not to do anything than the expected behaviour of the lot and land zoning. In the case of parking lots at plazas or malls, I'd reserve my local activity in the lot to being a patron if I were to find no trespassing signs (even if the owner wouldn't care about geocaching activity).

Common sense, imo.

 

Heck they might not care about geocaching, but if the signs are up and they're having a bad day, you could still get in trouble and they'd be in their legal right to charge for trespassing.

 

Also, I would presume that if a cacher reported the situation (no trespassing signs posted), the cache would be disabled and/or archived by a reviewer post-haste.

Edited September 16, 2014 by thebruce0

[4wheelin_fool]

If someone goes shopping at Lowes and notices a geocache in the parking lot, I would find it strange to see them shop, but purposely avoid the cache due to the sign. I don't know how someone would easily discern the two activities, and if the geocacher would get off the hook due to incidentally shopping in the area. So if someone asks what you are doing, and you tell them shopping and geocaching, you might be fine, but if you say only geocaching, then they point to the sign and give a stern warning? These type of signs are ambiguous, but seemingly intended to prevent criminal activity such as loitering for long periods of time for the intent to break into a car, or to harass shoppers with promotional intent or agendas. If the cache has a high difficulty, perhaps there maybe a problem until someone explains what is going on, but that seems unlikely in a parking lot.

Edited September 16, 2014 by 4wheelin_fool

[+narcissa]

If someone goes shopping at Lowes and notices a geocache in the parking lot, I would find it strange to see them shop, but purposely avoid the cache due to the sign. I don't know how someone would easily discern the two activities, and if the geocacher would get off the hook due to incidentally shopping in the area. So if someone asks what you are doing, and you tell them shopping and geocaching, you might be fine, but if you say only geocaching, then they point to the sign and give a stern warning? These type of signs are ambiguous, but seemingly intended to prevent criminal activity such as loitering for long periods of time for the intent to break into a car, or to harass shoppers with promotional intent or agendas. If the cache has a high difficulty, perhaps there maybe a problem until someone explains what is going on, but that seems unlikely in a parking lot.

 

I think it's best to just not geocache in a parking lot where there are "no trespassing" signs unless you are darn sure the cache owner has explicit permission to put a cache there.

 

It really doesn't matter what the intent of the sign is. If they don't want people loitering, they probably aren't going to be too keen on having people skulking around lifting up lampost skirts either.

 

If they're monitoring the parking lot, eventually they are going to wonder why people are coming and going from a particular spot, especially if it's a newly published cache.

[+BAMBOOZLE]

I've never seen a no trespassing sign that did not apply to geocachers.

 

Agreed.

But I get around a lot and have seen VERY few such signs. I have seen signs dedicating certain lot spaces to certain businesses which threaten to TOW your car if you are not at that business.

[+Ambrosia]

I don't think geocachers should be affected unless they go after hours

 

Presuming there is permission for the cache they are seeking.

 

If not, they are, in fact, trespassing if they are on the property for a reason other than shopping.

 

It doesn't matter if the cache has permission, any visits after hours are considered trespassing. If someone is there geocaching without permission under the signs during normal business hours, it likely would not affect them unless they created a problem.

I'm not sure about the signage at our local Costco, but I do know that we were stopped by a cop while caching there in the middle of the night. He was totally cool with it, and didn't tell us we were trespassing.

[+thebruce0]

I don't think I've ever seen a no trespassing sign posted within a parking lot in my area. I'd still proceed with caution, if at all, if I did.

[+sbell111]

I've never seen a no trespassing sign that did not apply to geocachers.

 

Agreed.

But I get around a lot and have seen VERY few such signs. I have seen signs dedicating certain lot spaces to certain businesses which threaten to TOW your car if you are not at that business.

That's kind of the thing about this thread (and the forums in general, to some extent). We all have very strong opinions about 'no trespassing' signs in parking lots, but I can't imaginse that more than 1% of us have ever run into them.

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

I had a cache placed with permission in a city park. It had been there and visited frequently for about a year without problem when the landscapers trimmed some bushes around it, revealing an old rusted No Trespassing sign 10' before the cache. Despite the park reiterating that it was okay to pass it to get to the cache a number of cachers would not do it and commented in the logs that they left without hunting the cache. The cache lasted a few more years before being muggled one too many times and I would guess that five out of perhaps eighty cachers obeyed the sign after it was revealed, despite my statement in the listing that the cache was known to the city and had permission.

 

The sign wasn't for folks staying in the park but rather served as a fence or boundary limit keeping kids from leaving the park by following a trail crossing a creek which bordered the park. I seriously doubt that a kid ever paid attention to it as the trail was an oft-used conduit to a residential neighborhood.

 

As far as No Trespassing signs in parking lots or on buildings I can't imagine many cachers care. Geocaching's 'dirty little secret' is that the vast majority of caches are on private land with no permission or knowledge of the landowner at all.

 

Most cachers seem to equate 'I want to put it there' with 'I have adequate permission'.

Edited September 16, 2014 by TheAlabamaRambler

[+thebruce0]

...which doesn't change the fact that if there's a No Trespassing sign, it's prudent to abide by the sign unless otherwise explicitly informed, for your own safety (why risk it being legitimate and getting caught and charged on a land-owner's bad day, even?). Just because it's a "dirty little secret" doesn't mean it's 'ok', especially for a CO.

 

No Trespassing? Do not place a geocache, unless you have express permission on record.

No Trespassing? Best to avoid searching unless you know the land owner has given express permission.

[+Harry Dolphin]

I've seen plenty of "Parking for customers only' signs. But not any "No Trespassing" at parking lots.

As to other No Trespassing signs:

The county bought a hunting property and made it Wildlife Management Zone. But never took down the "No Trespassing" signs. The CO explained the problem.

Another was a mining area taken over by the state. The NJ Division of Wildlife signs were nailed on the No Trespassing signs.

I had no problems with hunting the caches in either of those areas.

[+geodarts]

That's kind of the thing about this thread (and the forums in general, to some extent). We all have very strong opinions about 'no trespassing' signs in parking lots, but I can't imaginse that more than 1% of us have ever run into them.

 

Read the signs carefully. At least on my area, a sign does not have to say "no trespassing" to be treated as such - although the intent is to keep parking lots from being used for after-hours loitering or limit solicitation or other activities during business hours, it can have the same effect. Some cities recommend specific wording (such as granting access between certain hours) and the police will enforce it under the trespassing law - although that usually means you will simply be asked to leave.

 

I stopped doing most parking lot caches a long time ago, but I have encountered caches in restricted areas and would be very surprised if they had permission. So I believe that more than 1% of the local cachers have found such caches. Even using that figure for the number of caches placed, it would still be a substantial number.

 

The only literal "no tresspassing" signs I have seen are those designed to keep people from using parking areas altogether; or prevent any kind of general access to the area. Sometimes a cache is placed behind such signs. Sometimes the owner gets angry about it. Even a single such encounter is not a pleasant experience.

Edited September 16, 2014 by geodarts

[+sbell111]

As far as No Trespassing signs in parking lots or on buildings I can't imagine many cachers care. Geocaching's 'dirty little secret' is that the vast majority of caches are on private land with no permission or knowledge of the landowner at all.

 

Most cachers seem to equate 'I want to put it there' with 'I have adequate permission'.

I think that you are attempting to conflate two things that shouldn't be.

 

On one hand, you have the fact that people assume that if there is no rule against geocaching, then geocaching must be OK. On the other hand, you have specific instuction that activities are not OK. Basically, these two issues are apples and wallpaper.

 

Further, they are not even close to the same legally. If you are found looking for a cache hidden without permission. You will be told to leave and if you remain or return, you could get arrested. However, if you are found looking for a cache on posted land, you could be immediately be arrested as you have already received your warning to leave.

[+sbell111]

That's kind of the thing about this thread (and the forums in general, to some extent). We all have very strong opinions about 'no trespassing' signs in parking lots, but I can't imagine that more than 1% of us have ever run into them.

Read the signs carefully. At least on my area, a sign does not have to say "no trespassing" to be treated as such - although the intent is to keep parking lots from being used for after-hours loitering or limit solicitation or other activities during business hours, it can have the same effect. Some cities recommend specific wording (such as granting access between certain hours) and the police will enforce it under the trespassing law - although that usually means you will simply be asked to leave.

I agree with you. Every sign in these lots should be obeyed.

 

• If you encounter a sign with specific hours, then you ought not park there after hours.
  
• 'Customer only' parking should not be used for caching-only trips. (However, if I bought something from the store, I would happily log the LPC on my way back to my vehicle.)
  
• 'No overnight parking' means no overnight parking.
  
• 'No frisbees' means geocaching is not welcome.
  

The list of example signs can go on and on but the point is the same. The land owner/manager gets to choose who uses his lot.

 

I stopped doing most parking lot caches a long time ago, but I have encountered caches in restricted areas and would be very surprised if they had permission. So I believe that more than 1% of the local cachers have found such caches. Even using that figure for the number of caches placed, it would still be a substantial number.

First, it should be noted that the 1% number is completely and totally made up. That being said, you cannot equate 1% of cachers experiencing something with 1% of caches being involved. Edited September 17, 2014 by sbell111

[+thebruce0]

Further, they are not even close to the same legally. If you are found looking for a cache hidden without permission. You will be told to leave and if you remain or return, you could get arrested. However, if you are found looking for a cache on posted land, you could be immediately be arrested as you have already received your warning to leave.

 

Exactly. Even if the owner doesn't care about the geocaching activity, they still have that right to enforce that restriction, and you are legally responsible for ignoring that posted restriction. Sure they might not press charges if they catch you, but regardless, you are trespassing. Why take that risk? Why assume? It's posted. Don't go there.

Edited September 17, 2014 by thebruce0

[4wheelin_fool]

These signs in commercial parking lots are not the same ones everyone is imagining. It seems a picture is needed.

[+Traditional Bill]

I'd like to note that if nobody placed geocaches in parking lots there wouldn't be any debate over "No Trespassing" signs. ;-)

[+dprovan]

I'd like to note that if nobody placed geocaches in parking lots there wouldn't be any debate over "No Trespassing" signs. ;-)

As I said early on, these signs affect me more often because I want to park there to get geocaches somewhere else, so I'd still be interested in the discussion even if there were no geocaches in parking lots.

 

Geeze, do y'all always drive right up to every cache you can?

[+sbell111]

I'd like to note that if nobody placed geocaches in parking lots there wouldn't be any debate over "No Trespassing" signs. ;-)

I doubt that you are correct. When I am caching, I generally drive my car to the vicinity of the cache and then find a place to park. The most convenient place is often in parking lots.

[+MKFmly]

I'd like to note that if nobody placed geocaches in parking lots there wouldn't be any debate over "No Trespassing" signs. ;-)

Please note, some parking lots may be "No Trespassing" areas but not all "No Trespassing" areas are parking lots... therefore it remaims a very valid discussion.

 

(But most get your point)

[+Cache O'Plenty]

Here in California, it is totally normal to encounter No Trespassing signs at the entrance to every parking lot. They vary in content but they all convey the same thing. They provide the legalese needed to tow a vehicle should they ever want to. The police won't allow a tow if there aren't signs posted at each entrance to the parking lot.

 

Just to be sure, yesterday I actually stopped and read one at a shopping center that said PRIVATE PROPERTY, No Trespassing, No Loitering. There was no language that indicated any exceptions, like shopping at the stores.

 

Also of note is that the tenants of the shopping center do not have the right to have a vehicle towed (unless they actually own the parking lot). That authority lies with the property owner or his representative (like a property manager).

 

Most owners do not want to tow vehicles unless they are actually causing some usage issues. And it will be after several hours to make sure the driver isn't shopping. In some cases they even like the extra vehicles as they make it look like his shopping center is busier than it really is. Of course, derelict/abandoned vehicles do get removed.

[+sbell111]

Here in California, it is totally normal to encounter No Trespassing signs at the entrance to every parking lot. They vary in content but they all convey the same thing. They provide the legalese needed to tow a vehicle should they ever want to. The police won't allow a tow if there aren't signs posted at each entrance to the parking lot.

 

Just to be sure, yesterday I actually stopped and read one at a shopping center that said PRIVATE PROPERTY, No Trespassing, No Loitering. There was no language that indicated any exceptions, like shopping at the stores.

 

Also of note is that the tenants of the shopping center do not have the right to have a vehicle towed (unless they actually own the parking lot). That authority lies with the property owner or his representative (like a property manager).

 

Most owners do not want to tow vehicles unless they are actually causing some usage issues. And it will be after several hours to make sure the driver isn't shopping. In some cases they even like the extra vehicles as they make it look like his shopping center is busier than it really is. Of course, derelict/abandoned vehicles do get removed.

California is a funny place.

[+Tassie_Boy]

 

Just to be sure, yesterday I actually stopped and read one at a shopping center that said PRIVATE PROPERTY, No Trespassing, No Loitering. There was no language that indicated any exceptions, like shopping at the stores.

 

 

Most owners do not want to tow vehicles unless they are actually causing some usage issues. And it will be after several hours to make sure the driver isn't shopping. In some cases they even like the extra vehicles as they make it look like his shopping center is busier than it really is. Of course, derelict/abandoned vehicles do get removed.

 

I think we need to think about what Trespassing means. There is no exception for shopping because shopping is a legitimate reason to be on the property and therefore you are not trespassing. A No Trespassing sign put up on the boundaries of a farm means that if you enter the property to wood hook, do burn-outs in paddocks, run your own goats in his poppy crop then you are going to be shot. If however you are entering to go straight to the Big House or an a agronomist going to look at a crop etc, etc, etc then you are there for a legitimate reason and are fine.

 

Same applies to the carparks we are seeing, if you are there to shop or some other activity approved by centre management then you are fine. If however you try to run a retail business out of the back of your car, or use the carpark as a race track or pub, or suspiciously mope around parked customer's cars while looking for a geocache then you should expect a visit from the boys in blue.

[+niraD]

California is a funny place.

Yep. Most of the time, I ignore the legalese everywhere. But sometimes I'm amused by it.