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Damaging A Cache


DubbleG
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A new cache had been placed and I headed out to find it. I met up with another cacher also seeking the FTF and we teamed up to find what was listed as a unique container. I eventually found what I thought was the container. It seemed like it "had to be" but neither of us could find a way to open it so we discounted it and continued looking. I actually thought it was a piece of trash and took it with me to discard with some other debris I found lying about. After an extensive search turned up nothing I took another look at the "trash" and decided what I'd found must be the cache. I decided I had to see what was inside figuring if it was garbage I could do no harm. In forcing it open I damaged the container. The damage was unintentional but definitely beyond "normal wear and tear" and I apologized to the CO in my log. A day or two later I got an email from the CO asking me to pay for a replacement. I agreed to do so, feeling it was the right thing to do, but I'm curious what the greater community thinks. Isn't damage to a container part of the risk a CO takes in placing a cache? Should a seeker be responsible for unintended damage?

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It is definitely a part of risk when placing a cache. If a cache is hard and unintuitive to open, the risk is even harder and Owner should count with risk.

 

Well, there are some caches that are intentionally hard to open, but then it's written in the description, and the cache is so described, that it can't be mistaken with trash.

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Isn't damage to a container part of the risk a CO takes in placing a cache?

 

Yes.

 

Should a seeker be responsible for unintended damage?

 

Yes. First, I think the seeker should offer to pay for it. If they don't offer, then personally, I wouldn't ask them to. Whether or not the CO should ask them depends entirely on the container, as some are destined to get broken quickly anyway. You did the right thing by admitting it and apologizing. However apologies are only words, and actions speak louder. If it was a crappy container, I probably would not want to pay anything, but would anyhow. Unfortunately there are plenty that would just walk away and not say anything at all.

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When something similar happened to me, I immediately posted a NM log using my mobile device (which I never do for finds or DNFs or other less urgent logs) and sent the CO detailed email. And I offered to help repair the broken components, or to do whatever else I could to help get the cache back up and running.

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I've never forced open a geocache that I can recall, because I didn't want to break 'em. If I've had difficulty opening a cache and thought I was about to break it, I've stopped and either logged a DNF or contacted the owner on tips how to open it (depending on whether I can get back to it or not).

 

That said, I do expect geocaches to have a certain ruggedness to them and not be vials of micron-thick glass. A few months ago the lid broke off of a geocache I was trying to open. It had become extremely brittle due to exposure to the sun. I handled it as gently as I could, I could see it was yellowing and cracking. It still crumbled, the plastic just wasn't built for being stuck outside in the sunlight for years and had had it. I apologized in my log and made the best repair I could with what I had. The owner was nice about it, accepted my apology, and replaced it. But if he had insisted I pay for it or go back out and replace it myself, I would have pointed out that this container was not designed for this use and it was not my fault it disintegrated -- I was just the last straw in a gradual process of wear and decay.

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I've never forced open a geocache that I can recall, because I didn't want to break 'em. If I've had difficulty opening a cache and thought I was about to break it, I've stopped and either logged a DNF or contacted the owner on tips how to open it (depending on whether I can get back to it or not).

 

That said, I do expect geocaches to have a certain ruggedness to them and not be vials of micron-thick glass. A few months ago the lid broke off of a geocache I was trying to open. It had become extremely brittle due to exposure to the sun. I handled it as gently as I could, I could see it was yellowing and cracking. It still crumbled, the plastic just wasn't built for being stuck outside in the sunlight for years and had had it. I apologized in my log and made the best repair I could with what I had. The owner was nice about it, accepted my apology, and replaced it. But if he had insisted I pay for it or go back out and replace it myself, I would have pointed out that this container was not designed for this use and it was not my fault it disintegrated -- I was just the last straw in a gradual process of wear and decay.

 

I agree here.

I have found when I make a cache a little too clever I'm asking for trouble and will get it sooner rather than later. It will get broken, become lost, or maybe stolen. Also placement....a mag cache on a bridge will get dropped in the water....a cache in a pipe or hollow tree will be dropped and become unreachable, really great ideas are HIGH MAINT. so be sure they are close to home.

I would never ask someone to pay for a creation of mine that didn't work out.

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I had this happen to me on a cache hunt not too long ago. The CO came up with the bright idea of hiding a bison tube inside of a full jar of Vaseline petroleum jelly. The cache was a half mile uphill hike from parking, so it's not like I could go back to the car for paper towels. My slippery hands retrieved the bison tube, opened it, and inside was one of those tiny clear plastic "inner capsules" that fit in bison tubes. I retrieved the inner capsule and, with much effort, unscrewed the tiny cap. But, then I could not get the tightly rolled log extracted. My nano log extractor was back in the car.

 

You can guess what happened. The capsule and log squirted out of my slippery hands and fell to the ground.

 

Did I mention that the cache was hidden inside a tree that was about five feet down a steep cliff? The dropped capsule is truly lost on the forest floor, far below.

 

This was probably not the optimal place for hiding such a cache design, especially since there was no direct warning on the cache description about the challenge awaiting me at the edge of the cliff on the top of the hill. Despite that, I immediately wrote to the cache owner and said I'd be replacing his inner capsule and log for him. That's on my to-do list for this weekend.

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I had this happen to me on a cache hunt not too long ago. The CO came up with the bright idea of hiding a bison tube inside of a full jar of Vaseline petroleum jelly. The cache was a half mile uphill hike from parking, so it's not like I could go back to the car for paper towels. My slippery hands retrieved the bison tube, opened it, and inside was one of those tiny clear plastic "inner capsules" that fit in bison tubes. I retrieved the inner capsule and, with much effort, unscrewed the tiny cap. But, then I could not get the tightly rolled log extracted. My nano log extractor was back in the car.

 

You can guess what happened. The capsule and log squirted out of my slippery hands and fell to the ground.

 

Did I mention that the cache was hidden inside a tree that was about five feet down a steep cliff? The dropped capsule is truly lost on the forest floor, far below.

 

This was probably not the optimal place for hiding such a cache design, especially since there was no direct warning on the cache description about the challenge awaiting me at the edge of the cliff on the top of the hill. Despite that, I immediately wrote to the cache owner and said I'd be replacing his inner capsule and log for him. That's on my to-do list for this weekend.

 

putting a bison inside a full jar of Vaseline a half mile from the parking, without telling you in the cache page, is just asking for trouble with the cache. If I found something like that, it would take all I had not to toss the whole thing, jar and all down the steep cliff. I sure as heck wouldn't feel I owed the CO if part of the cache did what he should have expected, and slipped out of my greasy hands.

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I had this happen to me on a cache hunt not too long ago. The CO came up with the bright idea of hiding a bison tube inside of a full jar of Vaseline petroleum jelly. The cache was a half mile uphill hike from parking, so it's not like I could go back to the car for paper towels. My slippery hands retrieved the bison tube, opened it, and inside was one of those tiny clear plastic "inner capsules" that fit in bison tubes. I retrieved the inner capsule and, with much effort, unscrewed the tiny cap. But, then I could not get the tightly rolled log extracted. My nano log extractor was back in the car.

 

You can guess what happened. The capsule and log squirted out of my slippery hands and fell to the ground.

 

Did I mention that the cache was hidden inside a tree that was about five feet down a steep cliff? The dropped capsule is truly lost on the forest floor, far below.

 

This was probably not the optimal place for hiding such a cache design, especially since there was no direct warning on the cache description about the challenge awaiting me at the edge of the cliff on the top of the hill. Despite that, I immediately wrote to the cache owner and said I'd be replacing his inner capsule and log for him. That's on my to-do list for this weekend.

 

I hope it had a reasonable difficulty rating!

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I think you should have offered to pay for a replacement, up front, before they had to ask.

 

I dropped and lost a nano lid once. I immediately offered to replace it. The CO declined, but I would have been more than willing to 1) buy a new container 2) go to GZ to replace it.

 

It's just being polite.

 

I had the same situation. I dropped the nano lid and lost it in the grass. Offered to replace it and the CO also declined.

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Looking at the cache description, I see a lot of warnings that one would expect to tip you off. (I don't know if they were added after your incident, of course.) But, still, you tried your best, so I'm thinking this is not your fault. In fact, the CO's description and log suggest he was expecting this to happen. So I definitely see no reason for you to feel guilty about it. You helped, but ultimately it's the CO's risk and responsibility.

 

As long as you could afford it, I think it's nice of you to pay for a replacement. I'd be tempted to push back, but if I otherwise thought the CO was sincere and decent, then I'd help pay, but I'd do it with a healthy does of "and how many things are you going to do better to prevent it from happening again?" If you pay for a replacement, then you're justified in encouraging the CO to avoid someone else having to buy him yet another replacement in a couple weeks.

 

Generally, I think the most important part is that once someone suspects the container to the point of picking it up and studying it like you did, something about it should tip them off that this really is the right container. Certainly if someone innocently took it home to throw away, the CO has failed at a fundamental level. My favorites along these lines are the containers that seem random until you realize that the cache title it explicitly pointing to the container you're holding in your hand.

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Isn't damage to a container part of the risk a CO takes in placing a cache?

 

Yes.

 

Should a seeker be responsible for unintended damage?

 

Yes. First, I think the seeker should offer to pay for it. If they don't offer, then personally, I wouldn't ask them to. Whether or not the CO should ask them depends entirely on the container, as some are destined to get broken quickly anyway. You did the right thing by admitting it and apologizing. However apologies are only words, and actions speak louder. If it was a crappy container, I probably would not want to pay anything, but would anyhow. Unfortunately there are plenty that would just walk away and not say anything at all.

 

I wouldn't say the seeker should be responsible for unintended damage to a container. Depending on just what the container is I think there are many situations when the hider should put it down to experience and think of how their cache will look and how people will interact with it.

 

I remember caching with a friend, and hearing a crunch. It turned out the hider had hidden a polystyrene (styrofoam for US readers) fake rock under a small pile of leaves. Not surprisingly when it wasn't visible people didn't take any care not to step on it, so one of the first finders pretty much destroyed it. I certainly wouldn't offer to pay for another one - it was a badly thought out hide in a silly position.

 

If the cache looked like a piece of trash left lying around the CO should perhaps be thankful that the cache survived the process at all and wasn't rounded up and thrown in the trash by a well meaning cacher who logged a DNF but did a bit of CITO while they were there.

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It's incredibly nice of you to pay for a replacement. It's incredibly cheezy of the CO to ask you to replace it.

 

I broke a cache in half once trying to get it open in the dark (thought it was a twist-open container; it wasn't). I didn't offer to replace it. I did toy with the idea of walking away and pretending I was never here but in the end I fessed up. If the CO had asked me to pay for a replacement I would have done so, but I would have then kicked myself for fessing up. As a CO, I'd just be glad they did fess up and that I could fix it before others attempted it.

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I had this happen to me on a cache hunt not too long ago. The CO came up with the bright idea of hiding a bison tube inside of a full jar of Vaseline petroleum jelly. The cache was a half mile uphill hike from parking, so it's not like I could go back to the car for paper towels. My slippery hands retrieved the bison tube, opened it, and inside was one of those tiny clear plastic "inner capsules" that fit in bison tubes. I retrieved the inner capsule and, with much effort, unscrewed the tiny cap. But, then I could not get the tightly rolled log extracted. My nano log extractor was back in the car.

 

You can guess what happened. The capsule and log squirted out of my slippery hands and fell to the ground.

 

Did I mention that the cache was hidden inside a tree that was about five feet down a steep cliff? The dropped capsule is truly lost on the forest floor, far below.

 

This was probably not the optimal place for hiding such a cache design, especially since there was no direct warning on the cache description about the challenge awaiting me at the edge of the cliff on the top of the hill. Despite that, I immediately wrote to the cache owner and said I'd be replacing his inner capsule and log for him. That's on my to-do list for this weekend.

 

putting a bison inside a full jar of Vaseline a half mile from the parking, without telling you in the cache page, is just asking for trouble with the cache. If I found something like that, it would take all I had not to toss the whole thing, jar and all down the steep cliff. I sure as heck wouldn't feel I owed the CO if part of the cache did what he should have expected, and slipped out of my greasy hands.

 

Amen.

We found one not long ago except the log container was a nano and the medium was worse than Vaseline....some kind of oil containing slime all in a pint jar. The CO had been complaining about abuse of his cache....imagine that.

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Isn't damage to a container part of the risk a CO takes in placing a cache?

 

Yes.

 

Should a seeker be responsible for unintended damage?

 

Yes. First, I think the seeker should offer to pay for it. If they don't offer, then personally, I wouldn't ask them to. Whether or not the CO should ask them depends entirely on the container, as some are destined to get broken quickly anyway. You did the right thing by admitting it and apologizing. However apologies are only words, and actions speak louder. If it was a crappy container, I probably would not want to pay anything, but would anyhow. Unfortunately there are plenty that would just walk away and not say anything at all.

 

I wouldn't say the seeker should be responsible for unintended damage to a container. Depending on just what the container is I think there are many situations when the hider should put it down to experience and think of how their cache will look and how people will interact with it.

 

I remember caching with a friend, and hearing a crunch. It turned out the hider had hidden a polystyrene (styrofoam for US readers) fake rock under a small pile of leaves. Not surprisingly when it wasn't visible people didn't take any care not to step on it, so one of the first finders pretty much destroyed it. I certainly wouldn't offer to pay for another one - it was a badly thought out hide in a silly position.

 

If the cache looked like a piece of trash left lying around the CO should perhaps be thankful that the cache survived the process at all and wasn't rounded up and thrown in the trash by a well meaning cacher who logged a DNF but did a bit of CITO while they were there.

 

All true.

A ground level cache should be made to survive pokes with hiking sticks as well as being stepped on.

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Isn't damage to a container part of the risk a CO takes in placing a cache?

 

Yes.

 

Should a seeker be responsible for unintended damage?

 

Yes.

 

I wouldn't say the seeker should be responsible for unintended damage to a container. Depending on just what the container is I think there are many situations when the hider should put it down to experience and think of how their cache will look and how people will interact with it.

 

 

If the cache looked like a piece of trash left lying around the CO should perhaps be thankful that the cache survived the process at all and wasn't rounded up and thrown in the trash by a well meaning cacher who logged a DNF but did a bit of CITO while they were there.

 

knowing that the "unique container" i've placed may (and has been many times) be citoed, i made up many duplicates, always in my geomobile, ready to replace -- the experience for the finders is too much fun not to be at the ready from my cache owners position...

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Isn't damage to a container part of the risk a CO takes in placing a cache?

 

Yes.

 

Should a seeker be responsible for unintended damage?

 

Yes. First, I think the seeker should offer to pay for it. If they don't offer, then personally, I wouldn't ask them to. Whether or not the CO should ask them depends entirely on the container, as some are destined to get broken quickly anyway. You did the right thing by admitting it and apologizing. However apologies are only words, and actions speak louder. If it was a crappy container, I probably would not want to pay anything, but would anyhow. Unfortunately there are plenty that would just walk away and not say anything at all.

 

I wouldn't say the seeker should be responsible for unintended damage to a container. Depending on just what the container is I think there are many situations when the hider should put it down to experience and think of how their cache will look and how people will interact with it.

 

I remember caching with a friend, and hearing a crunch. It turned out the hider had hidden a polystyrene (styrofoam for US readers) fake rock under a small pile of leaves. Not surprisingly when it wasn't visible people didn't take any care not to step on it, so one of the first finders pretty much destroyed it. I certainly wouldn't offer to pay for another one - it was a badly thought out hide in a silly position.

 

If the cache looked like a piece of trash left lying around the CO should perhaps be thankful that the cache survived the process at all and wasn't rounded up and thrown in the trash by a well meaning cacher who logged a DNF but did a bit of CITO while they were there.

 

All true.

A ground level cache should be made to survive pokes with hiking sticks as well as being stepped on.

 

While I don't think that a seeker should be held accountable by the cache owner for damage, they should accept the responsibility for their own actions and offer to pay, depending on the circumstances. There is a difference here. Accountability should be offered to, but not demanded from. Some are lousy designs, while having the seeker offering to pay would be the best thing, but having the cache owner asking to pay would not.

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Looking at the cache description, I see a lot of warnings that one would expect to tip you off. (I don't know if they were added after your incident, of course.) But, still, you tried your best, so I'm thinking this is not your fault. In fact, the CO's description and log suggest he was expecting this to happen. So I definitely see no reason for you to feel guilty about it. You helped, but ultimately it's the CO's risk and responsibility.

 

As long as you could afford it, I think it's nice of you to pay for a replacement. I'd be tempted to push back, but if I otherwise thought the CO was sincere and decent, then I'd help pay, but I'd do it with a healthy does of "and how many things are you going to do better to prevent it from happening again?" If you pay for a replacement, then you're justified in encouraging the CO to avoid someone else having to buy him yet another replacement in a couple weeks.

 

Generally, I think the most important part is that once someone suspects the container to the point of picking it up and studying it like you did, something about it should tip them off that this really is the right container. Certainly if someone innocently took it home to throw away, the CO has failed at a fundamental level. My favorites along these lines are the containers that seem random until you realize that the cache title it explicitly pointing to the container you're holding in your hand.

 

Being a CO myself, i feel that i should be able to hide almost any type of container i want. That being said, if i get too creative, make it too tough, or possibly too vague (sounds like what the OP has sugggested this one was), then i almost expect problems to arise. I wouldn't expect anyone to pay for my cache if it broke during routine handling. Of course, i'd ask more questions if someone actually admitted to being too rough with it. An example, they took it to their car to sign then somehow ended up running over it with their car.

 

Because i try to be very careful, i've had pretty good luck not messing someone's cache up. There have been many that i've come across that were kinda cool and different but that i also knew couldn't have held up very long with routine cacher handling. On these, i would definitely let the CO know that their cache had gotten broken. If it was because of it being too flimsy or something else beyond my control, then i probably wouldn't offer to pay for it.

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I had this happen to me on a cache hunt not too long ago. The CO came up with the bright idea of hiding a bison tube inside of a full jar of Vaseline petroleum jelly. The cache was a half mile uphill hike from parking, so it's not like I could go back to the car for paper towels. My slippery hands retrieved the bison tube, opened it, and inside was one of those tiny clear plastic "inner capsules" that fit in bison tubes. I retrieved the inner capsule and, with much effort, unscrewed the tiny cap. But, then I could not get the tightly rolled log extracted. My nano log extractor was back in the car.

 

You can guess what happened. The capsule and log squirted out of my slippery hands and fell to the ground.

 

Did I mention that the cache was hidden inside a tree that was about five feet down a steep cliff? The dropped capsule is truly lost on the forest floor, far below.

 

This was probably not the optimal place for hiding such a cache design, especially since there was no direct warning on the cache description about the challenge awaiting me at the edge of the cliff on the top of the hill. Despite that, I immediately wrote to the cache owner and said I'd be replacing his inner capsule and log for him. That's on my to-do list for this weekend.

 

putting a bison inside a full jar of Vaseline a half mile from the parking, without telling you in the cache page, is just asking for trouble with the cache. If I found something like that, it would take all I had not to toss the whole thing, jar and all down the steep cliff. I sure as heck wouldn't feel I owed the CO if part of the cache did what he should have expected, and slipped out of my greasy hands.

OK, I'll bite. Why in God's name would someone hide a bison tube in a jar of Vaseline?

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I had this happen to me on a cache hunt not too long ago. The CO came up with the bright idea of hiding a bison tube inside of a full jar of Vaseline petroleum jelly. The cache was a half mile uphill hike from parking, so it's not like I could go back to the car for paper towels. My slippery hands retrieved the bison tube, opened it, and inside was one of those tiny clear plastic "inner capsules" that fit in bison tubes. I retrieved the inner capsule and, with much effort, unscrewed the tiny cap. But, then I could not get the tightly rolled log extracted. My nano log extractor was back in the car.

 

You can guess what happened. The capsule and log squirted out of my slippery hands and fell to the ground.

 

Did I mention that the cache was hidden inside a tree that was about five feet down a steep cliff? The dropped capsule is truly lost on the forest floor, far below.

 

This was probably not the optimal place for hiding such a cache design, especially since there was no direct warning on the cache description about the challenge awaiting me at the edge of the cliff on the top of the hill. Despite that, I immediately wrote to the cache owner and said I'd be replacing his inner capsule and log for him. That's on my to-do list for this weekend.

 

putting a bison inside a full jar of Vaseline a half mile from the parking, without telling you in the cache page, is just asking for trouble with the cache. If I found something like that, it would take all I had not to toss the whole thing, jar and all down the steep cliff. I sure as heck wouldn't feel I owed the CO if part of the cache did what he should have expected, and slipped out of my greasy hands.

OK, I'll bite. Why in God's name would someone hide a bison tube in a jar of Vaseline?

 

I had an idea for a cache where Id place a bison tube in hot wax and let it solidify. The finder would then have to melt the wax to sign the log but most would probably just break it so I knew it wouldn't work. Having said that, a bison tube in a jar of vasoline? I like it.

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I had this happen to me on a cache hunt not too long ago. The CO came up with the bright idea of hiding a bison tube inside of a full jar of Vaseline petroleum jelly. The cache was a half mile uphill hike from parking, so it's not like I could go back to the car for paper towels. My slippery hands retrieved the bison tube, opened it, and inside was one of those tiny clear plastic "inner capsules" that fit in bison tubes. I retrieved the inner capsule and, with much effort, unscrewed the tiny cap. But, then I could not get the tightly rolled log extracted. My nano log extractor was back in the car.

 

You can guess what happened. The capsule and log squirted out of my slippery hands and fell to the ground.

 

Did I mention that the cache was hidden inside a tree that was about five feet down a steep cliff? The dropped capsule is truly lost on the forest floor, far below.

 

This was probably not the optimal place for hiding such a cache design, especially since there was no direct warning on the cache description about the challenge awaiting me at the edge of the cliff on the top of the hill. Despite that, I immediately wrote to the cache owner and said I'd be replacing his inner capsule and log for him. That's on my to-do list for this weekend.

 

putting a bison inside a full jar of Vaseline a half mile from the parking, without telling you in the cache page, is just asking for trouble with the cache. If I found something like that, it would take all I had not to toss the whole thing, jar and all down the steep cliff. I sure as heck wouldn't feel I owed the CO if part of the cache did what he should have expected, and slipped out of my greasy hands.

 

So, just because I don't like someones idea for hiding a cache I should destroy it? If you don't like it don't find it but its not up to you to what others may or may not enjoy or how a CO may choose to hide a cache.

Edited by Roman!
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OK, I'll bite. Why in God's name would someone hide a bison tube in a jar of Vaseline?

 

Perhaps they were inspired by Ecclesiastes 10:1

 

It Isn't you, isn't me

Search for things that you can't see

Going blind Out of reach

Somewhere in the vasoline

Two times and it has rendered me

Punch drunk and without bail

Think I'd be safer all alone

Flies in the vasoline we are

Sometimes it blows my mind

Keep getting stuck here all the time

Edited by 4wheelin_fool
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I had an idea to hide a bison tube in a jar of fresh Skippy peanut butter, and call it "You wont find it in a jif"

 

Ive found several caches hidden in a container of slime.

 

More for uxorious:

 

If I choose to bury a cache, that's my choice.

If I choose to attach a cache to an electric fence, that's my choice.

If I choose to Hide my cache in a bear den, that's my choice.

If I choose that the only way to find my cache is to take my wife away, that's my choice.

 

If my cache is listed on this website it's your choice to report it and Groundspeaks choice to delist it it or not list it.

 

It is neither your choice or theirs to destroy it as there are other listing sites where my cache may be legit.

 

IE:

 

burriedcaching.com

buzzcaching.com

suicidecaching.com

swingercaching.com

 

Do not impose your view on others ideas of hiding a cache and do not impose Groundspeaks rules on how it should be hidden.

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As a cache owner of many caches I would never expect another cacher to pay for the replacement. That is just crazy. If a problem arises it would be my problem. They could have just taken it or not logged.

 

I did have one problem where one cache we found was a pump and it shot the cache out at another spot. Really cool! I did it first and noticed it didn't work on the push down but only on the pull up. My daughter did it after and it stopped working. I offered to pay and or help fix it. Luckily that CO was cool and fixed it and said it was a common problem and that it should work on both the push down and pull up. He said the pump had flaws in it. I would have been happy to help with that one as it is a crazy cool cache but don't think you should have to or that I would have to for a cache. I would just be happy someone let me know rather then to just hide it. If you feel like you did something and want to help out feel free to do so but if not just tell that CO to kick rocks.

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It's incredibly nice of you to pay for a replacement. It's incredibly cheezy of the CO to ask you to replace it.

 

Agreed, VERY cheezy to demand payment. Here's how it should go:

 

 

Finder to CO: "I apologize, but I broke your container trying to get it open. I'm willing to pay for a replacement"

 

CO: "Thanks for letting me know. Don't worry about it. If it broke that easily it's obviously a poor container design. My fault. "

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I had this happen to me on a cache hunt not too long ago. The CO came up with the bright idea of hiding a bison tube inside of a full jar of Vaseline petroleum jelly. The cache was a half mile uphill hike from parking, so it's not like I could go back to the car for paper towels. My slippery hands retrieved the bison tube, opened it, and inside was one of those tiny clear plastic "inner capsules" that fit in bison tubes. I retrieved the inner capsule and, with much effort, unscrewed the tiny cap. But, then I could not get the tightly rolled log extracted. My nano log extractor was back in the car.

 

You can guess what happened. The capsule and log squirted out of my slippery hands and fell to the ground.

 

Did I mention that the cache was hidden inside a tree that was about five feet down a steep cliff? The dropped capsule is truly lost on the forest floor, far below.

 

This was probably not the optimal place for hiding such a cache design, especially since there was no direct warning on the cache description about the challenge awaiting me at the edge of the cliff on the top of the hill. Despite that, I immediately wrote to the cache owner and said I'd be replacing his inner capsule and log for him. That's on my to-do list for this weekend.

 

putting a bison inside a full jar of Vaseline a half mile from the parking, without telling you in the cache page, is just asking for trouble with the cache. If I found something like that, it would take all I had not to toss the whole thing, jar and all down the steep cliff. I sure as heck wouldn't feel I owed the CO if part of the cache did what he should have expected, and slipped out of my greasy hands.

 

So, just because I don't like someones idea for hiding a cache I should destroy it? If you don't like it don't find it but its not up to you to what others may or may not enjoy or how a CO may choose to hide a cache.

 

You missed my point. I didn't say I would toss it, just that that would be my first thought. someone cuts me off in traffic my first thought is to ram their car, but I have never done it,(and never would).

 

I would never destroy a cache just because I didn't like it. But my main point was, if he hid the bison in Vaseline, and the Vaseline covered bison slipped out of my hand that's his problem not mine. I would take care not to drop it, but wouldn't feel at all bad, if what he should expect to happen, happens.

 

IMHO, anyone who would hide a cache like that would pass gas in a crowded elevator.

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It's incredibly nice of you to pay for a replacement. It's incredibly cheezy of the CO to ask you to replace it.

 

Agreed, VERY cheezy to demand payment. Here's how it should go:

 

Finder to CO: "I apologize, but I broke your container trying to get it open. I'm willing to pay for a replacement"

 

CO: "Thanks for letting me know. Don't worry about it. If it broke that easily it's obviously a poor container design. My fault. "

 

Agreed.

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1. For the example I wrote about, 4WheelinFool had the right idea but the wrong group and album. The CO likes to hide caches that are themed to his favorite music groups.

 

2. Because the CO chooses locations and/or containers that are appropriate to his cache page theme, I appreciate his cache hides. They're a breath of fresh air in a world full of "I was shopping here and saw there was no cache, now there is one." Some ideas I appreciate a little less than others. :laughing: This would have been a great idea if hidden in a guardrail next to a fast food restaurant (with a rest room and lots of paper towels). The CO acknowledged this in our friendly exchange of emails after I dropped the log down the cliff.

 

3. I'm glad this thread was started. I went back and looked at the cache listing and was shocked to see that my mishap was a full month ago. My ten day vacation and then getting my daughter moved back to college kind of ate up my August. Fixing this cache is now at the top of my list for Labor Day weekend.

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1. For the example I wrote about, 4WheelinFool had the right idea but the wrong group and album. The CO likes to hide caches that are themed to his favorite music groups.

 

2. Because the CO chooses locations and/or containers that are appropriate to his cache page theme, I appreciate his cache hides. They're a breath of fresh air in a world full of "I was shopping here and saw there was no cache, now there is one." Some ideas I appreciate a little less than others. :laughing: This would have been a great idea if hidden in a guardrail next to a fast food restaurant (with a rest room and lots of paper towels). The CO acknowledged this in our friendly exchange of emails after I dropped the log down the cliff.

 

3. I'm glad this thread was started. I went back and looked at the cache listing and was shocked to see that my mishap was a full month ago. My ten day vacation and then getting my daughter moved back to college kind of ate up my August. Fixing this cache is now at the top of my list for Labor Day weekend.

 

I guess he's a fan of

or perhaps The Talking Heads Edited by briansnat
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1. For the example I wrote about, 4WheelinFool had the right idea but the wrong group and album. The CO likes to hide caches that are themed to his favorite music groups.

 

2. Because the CO chooses locations and/or containers that are appropriate to his cache page theme, I appreciate his cache hides. They're a breath of fresh air in a world full of "I was shopping here and saw there was no cache, now there is one." Some ideas I appreciate a little less than others. :laughing: This would have been a great idea if hidden in a guardrail next to a fast food restaurant (with a rest room and lots of paper towels). The CO acknowledged this in our friendly exchange of emails after I dropped the log down the cliff.

 

3. I'm glad this thread was started. I went back and looked at the cache listing and was shocked to see that my mishap was a full month ago. My ten day vacation and then getting my daughter moved back to college kind of ate up my August. Fixing this cache is now at the top of my list for Labor Day weekend.

 

I guess he's a fan of

or perhaps The Talking Heads

 

I guessing that he meant that I wrote the correct lyrics by Stone Temple Pilots, but had the wrong album title of Ecclesiastes. :P

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Isn't damage to a container part of the risk a CO takes in placing a cache?

 

Yes.

 

Should a seeker be responsible for unintended damage?

 

Yes. First, I think the seeker should offer to pay for it. If they don't offer, then personally, I wouldn't ask them to. Whether or not the CO should ask them depends entirely on the container, as some are destined to get broken quickly anyway. You did the right thing by admitting it and apologizing. However apologies are only words, and actions speak louder. If it was a crappy container, I probably would not want to pay anything, but would anyhow. Unfortunately there are plenty that would just walk away and not say anything at all.

 

I wouldn't say the seeker should be responsible for unintended damage to a container. Depending on just what the container is I think there are many situations when the hider should put it down to experience and think of how their cache will look and how people will interact with it.

 

I remember caching with a friend, and hearing a crunch. It turned out the hider had hidden a polystyrene (styrofoam for US readers) fake rock under a small pile of leaves. Not surprisingly when it wasn't visible people didn't take any care not to step on it, so one of the first finders pretty much destroyed it. I certainly wouldn't offer to pay for another one - it was a badly thought out hide in a silly position.

 

If the cache looked like a piece of trash left lying around the CO should perhaps be thankful that the cache survived the process at all and wasn't rounded up and thrown in the trash by a well meaning cacher who logged a DNF but did a bit of CITO while they were there.

 

All true.

A ground level cache should be made to survive pokes with hiking sticks as well as being stepped on.

 

While I don't think that a seeker should be held accountable by the cache owner for damage, they should accept the responsibility for their own actions and offer to pay, depending on the circumstances. There is a difference here. Accountability should be offered to, but not demanded from. Some are lousy designs, while having the seeker offering to pay would be the best thing, but having the cache owner asking to pay would not.

 

Emphasis on the underlined. From the log, "I finally took one more look and decided I was going to open it one way or another. I did but sadly damaged the container in doing so."

 

I think that once you have made that decision, you've pretty much bought the cache.

Edited by Don_J
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1. For the example I wrote about, 4WheelinFool had the right idea but the wrong group and album. The CO likes to hide caches that are themed to his favorite music groups.

 

2. Because the CO chooses locations and/or containers that are appropriate to his cache page theme, I appreciate his cache hides. They're a breath of fresh air in a world full of "I was shopping here and saw there was no cache, now there is one." Some ideas I appreciate a little less than others. :laughing: This would have been a great idea if hidden in a guardrail next to a fast food restaurant (with a rest room and lots of paper towels). The CO acknowledged this in our friendly exchange of emails after I dropped the log down the cliff.

 

3. I'm glad this thread was started. I went back and looked at the cache listing and was shocked to see that my mishap was a full month ago. My ten day vacation and then getting my daughter moved back to college kind of ate up my August. Fixing this cache is now at the top of my list for Labor Day weekend.

 

I guess he's a fan of

or perhaps The Talking Heads

 

I guessing that he meant that I wrote the correct lyrics by Stone Temple Pilots, but had the wrong album title of Ecclesiastes. :P

Wrong group and album. OK -- I'll go with "Vaseline," by Oklahoma's own Flaming Lips.

 

Edit: nope, Sand in the Vaseline by Talking Heads. Should have known. (Great album.)

Edited by hzoi
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A cache was hidden in a hinged log, and as I picked it up, it fell apart. Although the elements were really the cause, I felt at fault and contacted the CO, offering to pay. No need they said as they were aware it was on its last legs, and just my bad luck to be the cacher it happened to. They had a replacement ready to go, luckily.

These things happen, just hope the CO in the OP's case didn't spend a lot of money on this particular container.

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I would never expect a cacher to pay to fix one of our hides. I think if they went crazy and broke it that it would be cool for them to offer but we would never take them up on the offer.

 

On the flip side would you pay someone for fixing up your cache? We kind of did. We have out a series of kayak caches that often have problems. It is doable but kind of a pain to go fix them up all the time. One cool cacher emailed us and asked if it was OK to replace some if they were missing. I said for sure and we would appreciate it. I noticed from the logs they went out of there way to replace some of them. Seemed they replaced them with care and not just to add a smiley to there account. One of the last ones the cacher said they were out of containers and made a make shift one that should last a little while. I was very grateful and thought I should offer to pay them for whatever it costed but I was pretty sure they might turn down the offer. Also how would I send it over? I was thinking paypal or something if they had it. I decided to shoot them over a year of premium membership as our way of saying thanks and it was well worth it to save a long kayak trip as right now I am working on a crazy home project. That way they couldn't turn it down. The cacher was so cool and must have liked the offer because he went back and replaced the temp container on the one hide with one that would last longer. I think it was all a great deal. I don't think I would have said if you replace them I will send you a premium membership if you do a good job but it was cool to see he did a great job and gave up his containers out of kindness for nothing in return. Then the bonus of going back out when he don't even live in the area is part of what makes this a great game.

 

I don't want to sound like a lazy CO here. There is a group of cachers renting kayaks to go do these at the end of next month so we are going to go make a sweep of the lake and make sure they are all good before that outing but the few months break is awesome.

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I can't imagine ever asking a cacher to replace a cache design of mine that was fragile. As cache owner, if I placed something that was not able to stand up to the environment or people looking for it and opening it, either I should do a better job or be prepared for lots of maintenance.

 

Of course, if a cacher posted "Found your ammo can and decided to throw it off the cliff, sorry about that", well that's different.

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Cheesy of the CO.

 

I know a number of caches that get broken in a hurry around here. Anything with a fishing line to the container. Nobody at fault but the CO when you do that! :ph34r:

 

I used heavy duty wire for my caches when I hang them in small trees and etc. They dont get broken. Preform water bottle work well too. Spend a little and things wont get broken so fast.

 

I have one rule for myself as a CO. Cachers are rough on caches and there is nothing for me to do about it but make it heavy duty. There is no BUT about it.

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1. For the example I wrote about, 4WheelinFool had the right idea but the wrong group and album. The CO likes to hide caches that are themed to his favorite music groups.

 

2. Because the CO chooses locations and/or containers that are appropriate to his cache page theme, I appreciate his cache hides. They're a breath of fresh air in a world full of "I was shopping here and saw there was no cache, now there is one." Some ideas I appreciate a little less than others. :laughing: This would have been a great idea if hidden in a guardrail next to a fast food restaurant (with a rest room and lots of paper towels). The CO acknowledged this in our friendly exchange of emails after I dropped the log down the cliff.

 

3. I'm glad this thread was started. I went back and looked at the cache listing and was shocked to see that my mishap was a full month ago. My ten day vacation and then getting my daughter moved back to college kind of ate up my August. Fixing this cache is now at the top of my list for Labor Day weekend.

It's nice and proper that you are taking care of fixing the cache. However, who would think of having that kind of container on or near a cliff! Just asking for trouble.

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If it's particularly difficult to open and breaks while opening it, I would not feel obligated to replace it. Who's to say the replacement won't just have the same problem if it's the same type of container?

 

Now, if you were banging on the thing with a hammer or something, then it gets a bit iffy since you would never be expected to need to use such a tool unless specifically told to in the cache description. In that case, it may be a good idea to offer to replace it...but poor form for the CO to ask for it.

 

I don't know what sort of container this is...but COs should know that replacing difficult-to-open caches that get damaged is part of the 'cost of doing business'. Same with delicate or homemade caches. Same with any cache, really...but they should expect to have to replace those that are more likely to get damaged when getting opened more often than an ammo can or lock and lock container.

Edited by J Grouchy
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I had this happen to me on a cache hunt not too long ago. The CO came up with the bright idea of hiding a bison tube inside of a full jar of Vaseline petroleum jelly. The cache was a half mile uphill hike from parking, so it's not like I could go back to the car for paper towels. My slippery hands retrieved the bison tube, opened it, and inside was one of those tiny clear plastic "inner capsules" that fit in bison tubes. I retrieved the inner capsule and, with much effort, unscrewed the tiny cap. But, then I could not get the tightly rolled log extracted. My nano log extractor was back in the car.

 

You can guess what happened. The capsule and log squirted out of my slippery hands and fell to the ground.

 

Did I mention that the cache was hidden inside a tree that was about five feet down a steep cliff? The dropped capsule is truly lost on the forest floor, far below.

 

This was probably not the optimal place for hiding such a cache design, especially since there was no direct warning on the cache description about the challenge awaiting me at the edge of the cliff on the top of the hill. Despite that, I immediately wrote to the cache owner and said I'd be replacing his inner capsule and log for him. That's on my to-do list for this weekend.

 

putting a bison inside a full jar of Vaseline a half mile from the parking, without telling you in the cache page, is just asking for trouble with the cache. If I found something like that, it would take all I had not to toss the whole thing, jar and all down the steep cliff. I sure as heck wouldn't feel I owed the CO if part of the cache did what he should have expected, and slipped out of my greasy hands.

OK, I'll bite. Why in God's name would someone hide a bison tube in a jar of Vaseline?

 

I had an idea for a cache where Id place a bison tube in hot wax and let it solidify. The finder would then have to melt the wax to sign the log but most would probably just break it so I knew it wouldn't work. Having said that, a bison tube in a jar of vasoline? I like it.

 

Hey now, I like the vasoline idea! Ya gotta do it right though, that is key. My "bison in a jar of vasoline" hide is a multi. The first stage has coordinates for the final and a box of disposable gloves which I have yet to replace (it doesn't get much traffic). The finals a bushwhack, but hey at least I give you the necessary tool to retrieve the cache. I still get a kick when I go to check on it and the log is dry as a bone.

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I have broken two caches during these two years and 112 found its. The first one was up in a tree and I could barely reach the hole it was hidden in. I was a stupid newbie then (I'm probably still a newbie...) and poked the hole with a stick to probe if the cache is there. What I did not know was that I hit the handle of the cache and it got loose. I posted NM but the hider archived it. If I now see holes I cannot see in I aim my mobile phone camera into it and shoot a pic.

 

The second time was a cleverly camoed cache. I thought it was trash so I assumed my dog wanted to play with it when she sniffed at it. Well, it wasn't trash and it broke when my foot hit it. I felt so guilty and wondered if I had anything I could use to fix it. But a few hours later the CO had it back in order.

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I think you should have offered to pay for a replacement, up front, before they had to ask.

 

I dropped and lost a nano lid once. I immediately offered to replace it. The CO declined, but I would have been more than willing to 1) buy a new container 2) go to GZ to replace it.

 

It's just being polite.

This.

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