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frinklabs

[FEATURE] Challenge Stars

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As I understand this suggestion:

 

For each challenge cache, the difficulty of the challenge requirements would be rated on a scale of 1-5, and represented as challenge stars (similar to the 1-5 difficulty stars and the 1-5 terrain stars).

 

The challenge caches that someone has logged as "Challenge Completed" would be represented by the sum of all the challenge stars of the completed challenges (similar to representing finds by adding up the difficulty stars and/or the terrain stars of all the found caches).

 

Is this correct?

 

Affirmative.

 

The sum of all your challenge stars earned could be one statistic. You could also have an average of your challenge stars (like with D/T now).

 

The quantification of the difficulty would allow filtering out 1-star (what some people might qualitatively call "lame") challenges.

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As I understand this suggestion:

 

For each challenge cache, the difficulty of the challenge requirements would be rated on a scale of 1-5, and represented as challenge stars (similar to the 1-5 difficulty stars and the 1-5 terrain stars).

 

The challenge caches that someone has logged as "Challenge Completed" would be represented by the sum of all the challenge stars of the completed challenges (similar to representing finds by adding up the difficulty stars and/or the terrain stars of all the found caches).

 

Is this correct?

Affirmative.

 

The sum of all your challenge stars earned could be one statistic. You could also have an average of your challenge stars (like with D/T now).

 

The quantification of the difficulty would allow filtering out 1-star (what some people might qualitatively call "lame") challenges.

I like the idea of quantifying the difficulty of the challenge. But I think it could go both ways. One person's "lame" is another person's "obtainable" (1 star). One person's "challenging" is another person's "impossible" (5 star).

 

Actually, I'd like a similar rating system for other cache types, to quantify that which is neither terrain (getting to GZ) nor difficulty (identifying the cache once at GZ).

 

What I don't like is the emphasis on collecting challenge stars. I'd rather see the count of completed challenges displayed, similar to the count of found caches. I'd rather not see the sum of challenge stars displayed, similar to the sum of difficulty stars or the sum of terrain stars.

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As I understand this suggestion:

 

For each challenge cache, the difficulty of the challenge requirements would be rated on a scale of 1-5, and represented as challenge stars (similar to the 1-5 difficulty stars and the 1-5 terrain stars).

 

The challenge caches that someone has logged as "Challenge Completed" would be represented by the sum of all the challenge stars of the completed challenges (similar to representing finds by adding up the difficulty stars and/or the terrain stars of all the found caches).

 

Is this correct?

Affirmative.

 

The sum of all your challenge stars earned could be one statistic. You could also have an average of your challenge stars (like with D/T now).

 

The quantification of the difficulty would allow filtering out 1-star (what some people might qualitatively call "lame") challenges.

I like the idea of quantifying the difficulty of the challenge. But I think it could go both ways. One person's "lame" is another person's "obtainable" (1 star). One person's "challenging" is another person's "impossible" (5 star).

 

Actually, I'd like a similar rating system for other cache types, to quantify that which is neither terrain (getting to GZ) nor difficulty (identifying the cache once at GZ).

 

What I don't like is the emphasis on collecting challenge stars. I'd rather see the count of completed challenges displayed, similar to the count of found caches. I'd rather not see the sum of challenge stars displayed, similar to the sum of difficulty stars or the sum of terrain stars.

 

Oh, good! Then I won't ever have to worry about challenges again, for they won't be caches! Actually not a bad idea. Just get rid of them.

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I think you're making Groundspeak's point about challenge caches. Everyone is looking at their own belly button and it creates a mess for GS to manage CO's requests. That's a good thing as it will most likely help them to streamline challenge types.

Sorry, I don't buy that. What I'm saying is true for any cache, they all already have physical locations, and all but a few already have physical containers, so logically impossible for that to increase the burden of challenge caches on GS or the reviewers.

 

And for a second time in a row, you completely ignore my point about making a distinction between universal challenges and regional challenges.

That's because I don't remember what it was, didn't find it when I looked, and couldn't imagine how it was relevant. To the extent your proposal allows geocaches with physical containers with specified coordinates, I like it. To the extent it doesn't, I don't.

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I'd rather see the count of completed challenges displayed, similar to the count of found caches.

 

Like this?

 

5273918d-251f-446c-93aa-2f0377010c63.png

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just wondering, who's going to publish challenge caches with challenge stars? Cachers, same problem, lots of appeals for denied submissions? Groundspeak, thought they were trying to create less work, not more. Your idea does not solve the problem that resulted in the moratorium.

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What I don't like is the emphasis on collecting challenge stars. I'd rather see the count of completed challenges displayed, similar to the count of found caches. I'd rather not see the sum of challenge stars displayed, similar to the sum of difficulty stars or the sum of terrain stars.

 

If it's treated the same as D and T, then really Finds are to D/T sums as Challenges Completed are to C* sums. Just different ways of viewing the same data. That said, I wouldn't be against a more reserved display of challenge accomplishments in the form of count completed rather than star sum (just like we see finds, not D and T sums outside the stats display)

 

just wondering, who's going to publish challenge caches with challenge stars? Cachers, same problem, lots of appeals for denied submissions? Groundspeak, thought they were trying to create less work, not more. Your idea does not solve the problem that resulted in the moratorium.

 

Well yeah technically challenge stars wasn't proposed as a solution to the moratorium issue of reviewer/appeals overload. It doesn't really help in that regard. The main intent is to find a way to improve challenges to make them more purposeful and measurable in the system, as a way to both address concerns of detractors and desires (ymmv) of challenge fans.

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Well for me they'd detract from the fun of challenges and leave nothing to be desired.

 

Last thing we need is another screen scoreboard.

Edited by Roman!

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Well for me they'd detract from the fun of challenges and leave nothing to be desired.

 

 

How would they detract from the fun of challenges? Serious question. It wouldn't change the challenges themselves in any way. It would only change how they are quantified in your profile stats.

 

...and that last part..."leave nothing to be desired"...not sure what that's supposed to mean. The phrase "leaves something to be desired" may have been what you were going for there...

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Well for me they'd detract from the fun of challenges and leave nothing to be desired.

 

 

How would they detract from the fun of challenges? Serious question. It wouldn't change the challenges themselves in any way. It would only change how they are quantified in your profile stats.

 

...and that last part..."leave nothing to be desired"...not sure what that's supposed to mean. The phrase "leaves something to be desired" may have been what you were going for there...

 

I'll address the last part first, I was just trying to use the keywords from the quoted post, detract and desire, you weren't supposed to catch on.

 

I like the fact that to log a challenge cache you must complete the challenge it add a fun element to the game for me but lazy Roman would not go out of his way to complete a challenge for some star when he already got the smiley. I also do not like the idea of a second scoreboard, a challenge star scoreboard makes no sense to me in this site.

Edited by Roman!

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Well for me they'd detract from the fun of challenges and leave nothing to be desired.

 

 

How would they detract from the fun of challenges? Serious question. It wouldn't change the challenges themselves in any way. It would only change how they are quantified in your profile stats.

 

...and that last part..."leave nothing to be desired"...not sure what that's supposed to mean. The phrase "leaves something to be desired" may have been what you were going for there...

 

I'll address the last part first, I was just trying to use the keywords from the quoted post, detract and desire, you weren't supposed to catch on.

 

I like the fact that to log a challenge cache you must complete the challenge it add a fun element to the game for me but lazy Roman would not go out of his way to complete a challenge for some star when he already got the smiley. I also do not like the idea of a second scoreboard, a challenge star scoreboard makes no sense to me in this site.

 

Kind of helps separate the challenge junkies from those who only want to find a cache, eh? I have no problem with that.

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Well for me they'd detract from the fun of challenges and leave nothing to be desired.

 

 

How would they detract from the fun of challenges? Serious question. It wouldn't change the challenges themselves in any way. It would only change how they are quantified in your profile stats.

 

...and that last part..."leave nothing to be desired"...not sure what that's supposed to mean. The phrase "leaves something to be desired" may have been what you were going for there...

 

I'll address the last part first, I was just trying to use the keywords from the quoted post, detract and desire, you weren't supposed to catch on.

 

I like the fact that to log a challenge cache you must complete the challenge it add a fun element to the game for me but lazy Roman would not go out of his way to complete a challenge for some star when he already got the smiley. I also do not like the idea of a second scoreboard, a challenge star scoreboard makes no sense to me in this site.

 

Kind of helps separate the challenge junkies from those who only want to find a cache, eh? I have no problem with that.

 

I wouldn't call myself a challenge junkie, I enjoy all sorts of caches and challenge caches are just one of them and I enjoy them just the way they are as many others do.

 

I think most people would take the path of least resistence and they'd only log the challenge as well if they prequalified, I think very few people would actually go out of their way to finish of a challenge after they got their smiley.

Edited by Roman!

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Well for me they'd detract from the fun of challenges
How would they detract from the fun of challenges? Serious question. It wouldn't change the challenges themselves in any way. It would only change how they are quantified in your profile stats.
I like the fact that to log a challenge cache you must complete the challenge it add a fun element to the game for me but lazy Roman would not go out of his way to complete a challenge for some star when he already got the smiley.

 

Confused frinklabs is wondering if you are doing challenges because they are fun or because you want the smiley?

 

I also do not like the idea of a second scoreboard

 

What is the first scoreboard?

 

Using the Challenge Stars to keep score would be a sub-component of their features. Like the extant D/T rating, they could be used to filter and select challenges that are at a preferred level.

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Well for me they'd detract from the fun of challenges
How would they detract from the fun of challenges? Serious question. It wouldn't change the challenges themselves in any way. It would only change how they are quantified in your profile stats.
I like the fact that to log a challenge cache you must complete the challenge it add a fun element to the game for me but lazy Roman would not go out of his way to complete a challenge for some star when he already got the smiley.

 

Confused frinklabs is wondering if you are doing challenges because they are fun or because you want the smiley?

 

I also do not like the idea of a second scoreboard

 

What is the first scoreboard?

 

Using the Challenge Stars to keep score would be a sub-component of their features. Like the extant D/T rating, they could be used to filter and select challenges that are at a preferred level.

 

Yes, I am doing challenges for the fact they are fun and they give me a smiley, if they stop being fun or stop giving me a smiley I will stop doing them as I have no interest in collecting challenge stars.

 

your suggestion will not solve the issue of why GS placed the moratorium anyways .

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Yes, I am doing challenges for the fact they are fun and they give me a smiley, if they stop being fun or stop giving me a smiley I will stop doing them as I have no interest in collecting challenge stars.

 

I think maybe you might not understand how this feature suggestion works.

 

You will still get your smiley when you sign the log. Fun is still had.

 

It is your choice whether or not to post the Challenge Completed log type, which is what gives the stars.

 

I get the sense that it might be even more fun for you to complete the challenge, sign the log, get the smiley and not claim the stars, on principle.

 

 

your suggestion will not solve the issue of why GS placed the moratorium anyways .

 

I am missing the part in this thread where I suggested it would?

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Yes, I am doing challenges for the fact they are fun and they give me a smiley, if they stop being fun or stop giving me a smiley I will stop doing them as I have no interest in collecting challenge stars.

 

I think maybe you might not understand how this feature suggestion works.

 

You will still get your smiley when you sign the log. Fun is still had.

 

It is your choice whether or not to post the Challenge Completed log type, which is what gives the stars.

 

I get the sense that it might be even more fun for you to complete the challenge, sign the log, get the smiley and not claim the stars, on principle.

 

 

your suggestion will not solve the issue of why GS placed the moratorium anyways .

 

I am missing the part in this thread where I suggested it would?

 

So why change something that works just fine? (Obviously apart from the appeals)

 

Yes, I would not claim the stars, it would just be another traditional, by removing the need to complete the challenge you remove the carrot.

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So why change something that works just fine? (Obviously apart from the appeals)

 

Yes, I would not claim the stars, it would just be another traditional, by removing the need to complete the challenge you remove the carrot.

 

Yesterday, I visited three challenge caches - one of which I will need to complete in the next couple of weeks. They all turned out to be nanos in an area that I otherwise would not have thought about caching. Removing the challenge aspect of them, and they would simply be another traditional that I would effectively ignore. At the same time, none of them were about accomplishments or anything that I would otherwise think about. But give me a carrot that made it a little different and I was in.

 

Challenge stars, badges, or souvenirs would not interest me. I would not have visited any of these caches to log them either as a traditional smiley or for a star. So yes, making it something other than a "challenge cache" would remove that particular carrot.

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So why change something that works just fine?

Fine, except that these cache types are the only exception to the ALR rule and the fact that there is no way to filter Challenges on maps or queries and that a Note-as-Found-Its messes up stats and chronology and that there's no way to tell whether the difficulty rating is for the challenge or the hide unless it says so on the cache listing.

 

There are other issues that this feature addresses, but I am not going to go back and pull out quotes from this thread (which I wondering if you have actually read).

 

by removing the need to complete the challenge you remove the carrot.

Currently the carrot is the singular Found It smiley. This feature enhances the reward to a quantity of carrots proportional to the difficulty of the challenge.

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Fine, except that these cache types are the only exception to the ALR rule and the fact that there is no way to filter Challenges on maps or queries and that a Note-as-Found-Its messes up stats and chronology and that there's no way to tell whether the difficulty rating is for the challenge or the hide unless it says so on the cache listing.

I've seen things like this mentioned a couple of times in this thread, and I really don't understand how it could possibly make sense. Yes, you can't filter challenge caches from puzzle caches, but puzzle caches are almost never at the posted coordinates, so why do you want puzzle caches in your PQ but not challenge caches?

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why do you want puzzle caches in your PQ but not challenge caches?

 

I don't want that -- I want a PQ or map filter of just Challenges.

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Yes, you can't filter challenge caches from puzzle caches, but puzzle caches are almost never at the posted coordinates, so why do you want puzzle caches in your PQ but not challenge caches?
Sometimes I want to work on puzzles. Then, anything that isn't an unsolved puzzle is clutter. I'd like eliminate challenges from that list.

 

Sometimes I want to see what challenges are in the area, to figure out whether I've already completed them, or whether an uncompleted challenge looks interesting and attainable. Then, anything that isn't a challenge cache is clutter. I'd like to eliminate puzzles from that list.

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why do you want puzzle caches in your PQ but not challenge caches?

 

I don't want that -- I want a PQ or map filter of just Challenges.

 

The simple solution and for the life of me I can not being to comprehend why GS has not done this is a different icon for challenge caches.

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why do you want puzzle caches in your PQ but not challenge caches?

I don't want that -- I want a PQ or map filter of just Challenges.

I don't understand. What do you want that's different than "do not show me unknown caches"? I know you're focused on challenge caches, and I know you want to turn them on or off, but what I don't understand is what makes challenge caches with their ALRs different than any other unknown cache for the purposes of filtering.

 

Yes, you can't filter challenge caches from puzzle caches, but puzzle caches are almost never at the posted coordinates, so why do you want puzzle caches in your PQ but not challenge caches?
Sometimes I want to work on puzzles. Then, anything that isn't an unsolved puzzle is clutter. I'd like eliminate challenges from that list.

 

Sometimes I want to see what challenges are in the area, to figure out whether I've already completed them, or whether an uncompleted challenge looks interesting and attainable. Then, anything that isn't a challenge cache is clutter. I'd like to eliminate puzzles from that list.

You've isolated my confusion perfectly. In both cases, what you want to distinguish are the puzzles that you've solved and the challenge caches that you've qualified for. I don't see the value of isolating puzzle caches from challenge caches when both groups have caches you aren't interested in.

 

I'm not against distinguishing and being able to filter challenge caches independently of other unknown caches, even though I don't really see much value in it. I'm mainly confused about the argument that says the ALRs of challenge caches demand a different filtering than other unknown caches, since most other unknown caches have a Logging Requirement -- you have to know where to look for the cache -- even though it's not an Additional Logging Requirement.

 

All this goes back to what I don't get about the main argument of the OP: why does anyone that doesn't meet the requirement want to find a challenge cache to begin with? In that context, I've been taking the gist of the "filter out challenges" argument to be that they want to find challenge caches because they can't filter them out.

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I don't understand. What do you want that's different than "do not show me unknown caches"? I know you're focused on challenge caches, and I know you want to turn them on or off, but what I don't understand is what makes challenge caches with their ALRs different than any other unknown cache for the purposes of filtering

There is nothing that makes challenge caches different from any other unknown for the purposes of filtering. Which is why they cannot be filtered separately. Implementation of the challenge stars feature would alleviate that.

 

why does anyone that doesn't meet the requirement want to find a challenge cache to begin with?

They do it all the time. Many cachers who are going to attempt a challenge will pre-sign the log on the cache when they find it, then post a Note log type. Implementation of the challenge stars feature would allow a proper Found It instead of the note. Then when the requirements of the challenge have been fulfilled, they can log the Challenge Completed log type.

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I don't understand. What do you want that's different than "do not show me unknown caches"? I know you're focused on challenge caches, and I know you want to turn them on or off, but what I don't understand is what makes challenge caches with their ALRs different than any other unknown cache for the purposes of filtering

There is nothing that makes challenge caches different from any other unknown for the purposes of filtering. Which is why they cannot be filtered separately. Implementation of the challenge stars feature would alleviate that.

 

why does anyone that doesn't meet the requirement want to find a challenge cache to begin with?

They do it all the time. Many cachers who are going to attempt a challenge will pre-sign the log on the cache when they find it, then post a Note log type. Implementation of the challenge stars feature would allow a proper Found It instead of the note. Then when the requirements of the challenge have been fulfilled, they can log the Challenge Completed log type.

 

Many cachers who get their smiley will not go out of their way to complete a challenge rendering the challenge pointless and the harder the challenge the less anyone will do it. The less people complete the challenge the less COs will place them, you'll just end up with a bunch of challenges everyone prequalifies for, where's the challenge in that?

 

I find it sad how people feel they deserve everything while working for nothing.

Edited by Roman!

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I don't understand. What do you want that's different than "do not show me unknown caches"? I know you're focused on challenge caches, and I know you want to turn them on or off, but what I don't understand is what makes challenge caches with their ALRs different than any other unknown cache for the purposes of filtering

There is nothing that makes challenge caches different from any other unknown for the purposes of filtering. Which is why they cannot be filtered separately. Implementation of the challenge stars feature would alleviate that.

I was asking what you see as being different that would make it interesting to filter separately.

 

why does anyone that doesn't meet the requirement want to find a challenge cache to begin with?

They do it all the time. Many cachers who are going to attempt a challenge will pre-sign the log on the cache when they find it, then post a Note log type. Implementation of the challenge stars feature would allow a proper Found It instead of the note. Then when the requirements of the challenge have been fulfilled, they can log the Challenge Completed log type.

Again, I just don't understand. How is Note/Found not as good as than Found/Completed? The only reasonable justification for Found/Completed is to allow people make the find and then not complete the challenge. Note/Found works perfectly well for anyone that is going to satisfy the requirements.

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I find it sad how people feel they deserve everything while working for nothing.

 

I guess it has to do with the fact they are physical caches. You can stumble on any physical cache while wandering around (puzzles, challenge caches, multis, etc.) and as long as you put your name in the logbook, you should be allowed a find.

 

Be it a non-solved puzzle cache (you saw the container in its hiding spot or you followed footsteps in the snow or you asked coordinates to a friend), a T5 cache at a top of a tree (it happened to be on the ground when you went by or you asked someone else to climb for you) or a challenge cache (you got the coordinates).

 

Again, this has nothing to do with the moratorium, it's just an irritant of the challenge caches (why should the golden rule of geocaching not apply to them?).

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Many cachers who get their smiley will not go out of their way to complete a challenge rendering the challenge pointless and the harder the challenge the less anyone will do it. The less people complete the challenge the less COs will place them, you'll just end up with a bunch of challenges everyone prequalifies for, where's the challenge in that?

 

I find it sad how people feel they deserve everything while working for nothing.

You distinctly looking at the cup as half empty.

For one, per my suggestion of decoupling the smiley from the challenge, caches that can be logged if found without completing will be attractive to those who don't care about challenges, and for those who do it's irrelevant, they'll still do the challenge (for the completion). Caches that cannot be logged found without completing the challenge can be ignored (filtered) for those who don't care about challenges, and for those who do it's irrelevant, they'll sitll find it and do the challenge (in either order).

Win win.

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I don't understand. What do you want that's different than "do not show me unknown caches"? I know you're focused on challenge caches, and I know you want to turn them on or off, but what I don't understand is what makes challenge caches with their ALRs different than any other unknown cache for the purposes of filtering

There is nothing that makes challenge caches different from any other unknown for the purposes of filtering. Which is why they cannot be filtered separately. Implementation of the challenge stars feature would alleviate that.

I was asking what you see as being different that would make it interesting to filter separately.

If I want to work on solving puzzles, I want to find Unknown caches that are not challenges.

If I don't care for challenges, I want to find all local caches that are not unsolved puzzles and which are not challenges.

If I want to find challenges so I can determine which I qualify for to find, I want to find only challenge caches.

None of those searches are possible right now. Not without a lot of extra manual work. Since the only distinguishing property is having "challenge" in the title - and even this is not guaranteed.

 

why does anyone that doesn't meet the requirement want to find a challenge cache to begin with?

They do it all the time. Many cachers who are going to attempt a challenge will pre-sign the log on the cache when they find it, then post a Note log type. Implementation of the challenge stars feature would allow a proper Found It instead of the note. Then when the requirements of the challenge have been fulfilled, they can log the Challenge Completed log type.

Again, I just don't understand. How is Note/Found not as good as than Found/Completed? The only reasonable justification for Found/Completed is to allow people make the find and then not complete the challenge. Note/Found works perfectly well for anyone that is going to satisfy the requirements.

Again, there are people who, when finding a physical cache and care nothing for challenges, still want to claim it as Found. They cannot, with the current system. The proposed system (especially if including the option to decouple Find from Completed) allows it; giving challenges a 2nd step addresses that concern and also enhances the challenge for those who do care about the challenge.

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Again, there are people who, when finding a physical cache and care nothing for challenges, still want to claim it as Found.

And, again, if they care nothing for challenges, why did the look for the physical cache in the first place?

 

cron mentions the serendipitous find, but that can't be the reason because such finds so rare. In fact, they're so rare, I can't imagine anyone caring whether they can log finds on the one or two challenge caches they found in their career by happenstance.

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Again, there are people who, when finding a physical cache and care nothing for challenges, still want to claim it as Found. They cannot, with the current system. The proposed system (especially if including the option to decouple Find from Completed) allows it; giving challenges a 2nd step addresses that concern and also enhances the challenge for those who do care about the challenge.

 

After reading some of the answers in all these threads, I don't think your solution would work. To be appealing to challenge aficionados, challenge caches have to be exclusive finds. If you don't impose the coupling of the find with the challenge completion, you'll loose the challenge crowd. If you impose the coupling, you're back to square one (for both camps).

 

Virtualizing the challenge caches would have the benefit to stop the irritant for those who care nothing about challenges as there would be nothing to find at GZ, except meeting the requirements of the challenge (which should be the driver for challenge lovers). Of course, some people will say it has less value than a "real find" because they want to keep them physical for the sake of exclusivity. Human nature.

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Again, there are people who, when finding a physical cache and care nothing for challenges, still want to claim it as Found.

And, again, if they care nothing for challenges, why did the look for the physical cache in the first place?

 

cron mentions the serendipitous find, but that can't be the reason because such finds so rare. In fact, they're so rare, I can't imagine anyone caring whether they can log finds on the one or two challenge caches they found in their career by happenstance.

 

The point is when you know there's a physical to be found, you can find it. There are multiple ways to achieve your goal (finding the cache and signing the logbook). I'm not saying they are all legit, but a find is a find. This is that rule the challenge cache's ALRs broke. Make them virtual and that irritant is gone.

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To be appealing to challenge aficionados, challenge caches have to be exclusive finds.
except meeting the requirements of the challenge (which should be the driver for challenge lovers).

At first, to my mind, this seemed contradictory. Either you are in it for completing the challenge, or for the smiley. Then I realized that either instance could be valid, depending on the cacher's personal tastes.

 

For those in the exclusive find camp, the Challenge Stars system would enhance the exclusivity of these finds. Not everyone would be able to claim completion of a C5 challenge. Currently, the monolithic smiley in no way differentiates the difficulty of one challenge from another.

 

 

This is that rule the challenge cache's ALRs broke. Make them virtual and that irritant is gone.

The Challenge Stars system addresses this.

 

It "virtualizes" the challenge aspect by tying the completion of the challenge's requirements to a Challenge Completed log type. This can be logged any time after the requirements are met, regardless of whether or not you have found the container and signed the log.

 

For some, this will be the end of the challenge as they will have already pre-signed the log and will receive the number of Stars proportional to the challenge's difficulty. For others (like me) this will be the precursor to a subsequent visit to the cache location to (hopefully) find the container and (very gratifyingly) sign the log.

 

 

And, again, if they care nothing for challenges, why did the look for the physical cache in the first place?

When I completed a 1.9 D/T average challenge, my daughter was with me when I finally hunted the container and signed the log. It would have been nice for her to have a find (but to be fair it was a beautiful location and came at the end of an awesome long weekend trip so I think she enjoyed it, despite the acronym log in her note).

 

Another awesome road trip with my daughter was undertaken for me to finish off the Ontairo Counties challenge. As indicated in my log, we were pretty tired and I took her home before going for the final. I probably would have been able to convince her to come along if there was a legit find in it for her (but she did miss out on an excellent night hike into an excellent wetland area).

 

Long-story-short, not all challenge cachers cache alone and not all cachers who accompany challenge cachers have fulfilled the requirements.

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After reading some of the answers in all these threads, I don't think your solution would work. To be appealing to challenge aficionados, challenge caches have to be exclusive finds.

Only if they're exclusive. Right now, yes, the value of the challenge cache (to some) is reduced if anyone can log it found without completing the challenge. Because then there's no distinguishing between the Find log of someone did all that was necessary and someone who didn't. That would not be an issue with the proposed system, because now a find means exactly that - the cache was found. Nothing more, nothing less.

"Valuing" the challenge cache also does not imply a cacher is being competitive. For many it's just the principle of the thing. Why require challenge completion if you can just find the cache? Because you have complete the challenge to log it found, people shouldn't be able to Find it without completing it --in the current system.

 

If you don't impose the coupling of the find with the challenge completion, you'll loose the challenge crowd. If you impose the coupling, you're back to square one (for both camps).

That's why I suggested the option - so the CO can decide whether they want to create a geocache that people can find, but propose an added reward by tying a challenge to the cache for those who wish to complete it (and find the cache). I know plenty of people whom I believe who take advantage of that ability. I also know plenty of people who would create challenge caches they would not like people to be able to "Find" without completing the challenge.

 

Virtualizing the challenge caches would have the benefit to stop the irritant for those who care nothing about challenges as there would be nothing to find at GZ...

There would be nothing to do at GZ, making virtualized-yet-published-at-coordinates-caches meaningless and pointless. The closest to 'virtualized' caches I acn slightly understand would be regional challenges (not tied to a gps location but a state/province/territory/etc). But then you have to deal with duplicates, and other things discussed earlier in the thread.

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This is that rule the challenge cache's ALRs broke. Make them virtual and that irritant is gone.

The Challenge Stars system addresses this.

 

Not really. You apply your personal interest lens on it (as much as I do). This doesn't address me being able to log a find (not a note) on a physical cache I found, except for those who would choose to let everyone "find" the cache without meeting the requirements (probably a minority, but even then, that is not the question as it could happen all the challenge caches around my area could require to meet the requirements).

 

Interestingly, you mentioned a challenge cache in your reply that I think is showing the need for them to become virtual.

 

I meet the requirements (at the moment), but by the time I go and sign the log, my average may have went down and I won't be able to claim a find on it anymore... To add to the insult, anyone can go and sign the logbook, then claim a find whenever they'll meet the requirements later on. A non-sense.

 

If challenge caches were virtual, locationless or call them what you want, it would be possible for someone meeting the requirements to log a find on them (as they have accomplished what the challenge was all about). Finding the container a distance away is irrelevant to this particular challenge.

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I meet the requirements (at the moment), but by the time I go and sign the log, my average may have went down and I won't be able to claim a find on it anymore

The Challenge Stars system would make this work for you.

 

At the moment you meet the requirements, you post the Challenge Completed log type with the requirements documented.

 

This leaves you free to attend the container's location at any time you want with no worries about what your D/T average is at that time, because you've already completed and logged the requirements. The Found It you log at that time means just that -- that you Found It.

 

Key to the Challenge Stars system is the understanding that the Found It smiley is no longer the "carrot" for the challenge's completion.

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I meet the requirements (at the moment), but by the time I go and sign the log, my average may have went down and I won't be able to claim a find on it anymore

The Challenge Stars system would make this work for you.

 

At the moment you meet the requirements, you post the Challenge Completed log type with the requirements documented.

 

This leaves you free to attend the container's location at any time you want with no worries about what your D/T average is at that time, because you've already completed and logged the requirements. The Found It you log at that time means just that -- that you Found It.

 

Key to the Challenge Stars system is the understanding that the Found It smiley is no longer the "carrot" for the challenge's completion.

 

Like a note, but the inverse (you meet the requirements before finding the cache). I still think it's a non-sense (with my lens - I understand it makes a lot of sense with your lens). You should deserve a find for physical caches you find and you should get a find for challenge requirements you meet (for those who want to play the sidegame). Thus why challenge and cache finds have to be split. As double-finds are not highly recommended in the geocaching community, virtualizing the challenge caches seems to be the way to go.

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A]

Like a note, but the inverse (you meet the requirements before finding the cache). I still think it's a non-sense (with my lens - I understand it makes a lot of sense with your lens). You should deserve a find for physical caches you find and you should get a find for challenge requirements you meet (for those who want to play the sidegame). Thus why challenge and cache finds have to be split. As double-finds are not highly recommended in the geocaching community,

B]

virtualizing the challenge caches seems to be the way to go.

I don't see how you make the jump from A] to B].

Additionally, what about the rest of the issues mentioned in this thread about virtualized and/or locationless challenges?

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A]

Like a note, but the inverse (you meet the requirements before finding the cache). I still think it's a non-sense (with my lens - I understand it makes a lot of sense with your lens). You should deserve a find for physical caches you find and you should get a find for challenge requirements you meet (for those who want to play the sidegame). Thus why challenge and cache finds have to be split. As double-finds are not highly recommended in the geocaching community,

B]

virtualizing the challenge caches seems to be the way to go.

I don't see how you make the jump from A] to B].

Additionally, what about the rest of the issues mentioned in this thread about virtualized and/or locationless challenges?

 

Virtual/locationless challenge makes it accessible to anyone to log a find on a challenge they accomplished. It also makes it impossible for those who don't want to play the challenge game to get out, sign a logbook and be denied a find on a physical cache.

 

I'm sure there will always be justifications to promote one idea or the other. Of course you won't want to have 2,460 similar "virtual" challenge caches with the same requirements published around the World, otherwise it could become redundant. This is why GS should also take back the ownership of challenge caches. Create limited categories of challenges, publish them and let people log them when they meet the requirements, no matter where they are located (being Canadian, American, European or African won't make any difference when time comes to meet the requirements for having found one-cache-a-day-for-365-consecutive-days). We don't need the same challenge being published over and over in different areas of the World. With limited categories, GS could ensure their site would automatically detect when you meet some easily measurable requirements.

 

Looks like souvenirs? Maybe. The difference would be you'd get a real find whenever you meet the requirements (and a badge or souvenir if you like). Up to GS to define what they want to offer.

 

All I know is it's out of control now and as they're looking for new ways to regulate the (their?) hobby, it's time to jump in and try to influence.

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The point is when you know there's a physical to be found, you can find it. There are multiple ways to achieve your goal (finding the cache and signing the logbook). I'm not saying they are all legit, but a find is a find. This is that rule the challenge cache's ALRs broke.

It doesn't break the rule, it's just an exception to the rule. The rule still works exactly the same everywhere else. Being an unknown cache, you already have to look at the description to determine whether it's possible for you to find the cache.

 

Make them virtual and that irritant is gone.

And for the Nth time, why is it an irritant if you don't care about the challenge? It's like walking into a bar, and then finding it irritating that they serve alcohol.

 

Besides, make them virtual, and they're just Challenges reborn.

 

Long-story-short, not all challenge cachers cache alone and not all cachers who accompany challenge cachers have fulfilled the requirements.

And for the Nth+1 time, if they don't meet the challenge, why do they care? Groups of cachers often visit caches which some of them have already found. Why doesn't everyone log a second find? Because one less find doesn't matter. Surely your daughter didn't come with you on that challenge cache hunt just to get +1.

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I don't see how you make the jump from A] to B].

Additionally, what about the rest of the issues mentioned in this thread about virtualized and/or locationless challenges?

 

Virtual/locationless challenge makes it accessible to anyone to log a find on a challenge they accomplished. It also makes it impossible for those who don't want to play the challenge game to get out, sign a logbook and be denied a find on a physical cache.

It makes posted coordinates irrelevant. It isn't itself geocaching. It becomes Geocaching Challenges at its loosest, or souvenir awarding based on stats - no longer Challenge Caches.

 

I'm sure there will always be justifications to promote one idea or the other. Of course you won't want to have 2,460 similar "virtual" challenge caches with the same requirements published around the World, otherwise it could become redundant. This is why GS should also take back the ownership of challenge caches. Create limited categories of challenges, publish them and let people log them when they meet the requirements, no matter where they are located (being Canadian, American, European or African won't make any difference when time comes to meet the requirements for having found one-cache-a-day-for-365-consecutive-days). We don't need the same challenge being published over and over in different areas of the World. With limited categories, GS could ensure their site would automatically detect when you meet some easily measurable requirements.

Already discussed all of this earlier.

 

Looks like souvenirs? Maybe. The difference would be you'd get a real find whenever you meet the requirements (and a badge or souvenir if you like). Up to GS to define what they want to offer.

 

All I know is it's out of control now and as they're looking for new ways to regulate the (their?) hobby, it's time to jump in and try to influence.

I'm not a fan of your influence. :laughing: (not that your comments are anything new - see the rest of this and the Pause thread).

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The point is when you know there's a physical to be found, you can find it. There are multiple ways to achieve your goal (finding the cache and signing the logbook). I'm not saying they are all legit, but a find is a find. This is that rule the challenge cache's ALRs broke.
It doesn't break the rule, it's just an exception to the rule. The rule still works exactly the same everywhere else. Being an unknown cache, you already have to look at the description to determine whether it's possible for you to find the cache.
Make them virtual and that irritant is gone.
And for the Nth time, why is it an irritant if you don't care about the challenge? It's like walking into a bar, and then finding it irritating that they serve alcohol.
The bars I've been to have also served non-alcoholic beverages. So those who don't drink alcohol can accompany their friends to the bar, and they can all have their thirst quenched.

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And for the Nth time, why is it an irritant if you don't care about the challenge? It's like walking into a bar, and then finding it irritating that they serve alcohol.

 

Besides, make them virtual, and they're just Challenges reborn.

 

And? I won't care because they will be virtual and I won't have anything to find at some coordinates. I'll be a happy camper and challenge lovers will still have a way to challenge themselves and get a find as a reward. All good for me.

 

And for the Nth+1 time, if they don't meet the challenge, why do they care? Groups of cachers often visit caches which some of them have already found. Why doesn't everyone log a second find? Because one less find doesn't matter. Surely your daughter didn't come with you on that challenge cache hunt just to get +1.

 

I don't think we all agree on what geocaching should be, so we're left with GS experimenting.

 

In my humble opinion, they messed up when they accepted to allow ALRs. Hopefully they'll realize it's easier to manage the game when there's only one person/group making/applying the rules.

 

Back to basics: find a cache, sign the logbook and log a find. Anything else involving ALRs can be virtualized. Of course, that won't solve the issue that caused the moratorium. I would love to see challenge caches stay for those who like them and at the same, I'd like if they could be less of an irritant for me (and maybe others who don't like them). Maybe the solution for GS will be to simply do as it was proposed (own/manage a limited quantity of virtual challenge caches with well-defined and easily measurable requirements). I won't miss anything if that happens.

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I'm not a fan of your influence. :laughing: (not that your comments are anything new - see the rest of this and the Pause thread).

 

All good with me as I'm not a fan of yours either. We can't all agree. I guess it takes divergent opinions to make progress.

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And for the Nth time, why is it an irritant if you don't care about the challenge? It's like walking into a bar, and then finding it irritating that they serve alcohol.

 

Besides, make them virtual, and they're just Challenges reborn.

 

And? I won't care because they will be virtual and I won't have anything to find at some coordinates. I'll be a happy camper and challenge lovers will still have a way to challenge themselves and get a find as a reward. All good for me.

What find? It's virtual. In the method you support, there's no act of going out and "finding" anything, outside completing a challenge. That's not a challenge cache. That's just a challenge. Geocaching Challenges.

 

Back to basics: find a cache, sign the logbook and log a find. Anything else involving ALRs can be virtualized.

...right. The challenge is a virtualized component to a physical cache. Log the find. Complete the challenge. Find the cache? Get a smiley. Complete the challenge (and find the cache)? Get stars.

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Besides, make them virtual, and they're just Challenges reborn.

 

 

No. They're not.

 

Challenges did not have a review process. A challenge cache as virtual would still require a review process.

 

Challenges did not have D/T ratings. Although a virtual challenge cache would not have a terrain rating, the difficulty rating would reflect the difficulty of the challenge.

 

One a challenge was created and completed, the creator no longer owned the challenge. The creator of a virtual challenge cache could own it until it needed to be archive (e.g. it was no longer attainable)

 

A challenge creator could not delete the logs of someone that did not actually complete the challenge. Proof of challenge cache completion would essentially be the same if the the "cache" was virtual or if it was a physical cache.

 

Challenges were not geocache related. In fact, one could not create a challenge which required one to find/hide one or more geocaches. Virtual challenge caches would *all* be about finding one or more geocaches.

 

 

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The bars I've been to have also served non-alcoholic beverages. So those who don't drink alcohol can accompany their friends to the bar, and they can all have their thirst quenched.

And in the challenge cache case, those that don't qualify can log a note to have their logging thirst quenched. They don't get the +1 of having alcohol in their drink, but they're still in the bar with their friends drinking something less than a beer.

 

Although the way I see it, it's more like going into a bar, ordering a pitcher of beer, and then being irritated by the beer because half of them don't drink beer. The choice of whether to go find a challenge cache is made before you go. If you're caching together, and it will kill one of you if the group to find a challenge cache they don't qualify for, then just don't go find that challenge cache. Don't give me a sob story about going there with your friends and then not being able to increase your find count by 1.

 

Back to basics: find a cache, sign the logbook and log a find.

Just do all your searches targeting traditional caches and you're there without taking anything away from the rest of us.

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Back to basics: find a cache, sign the logbook and log a find.

Just do all your searches targeting traditional caches and you're there without taking anything away from the rest of us.

 

Well, I do enjoy letterboxes and multis too. Too many "think-like-me" puzzles nowadays, but it depends. They can sometimes be entertaining.

 

I just don't like to jump in fire hoops because someone thinks it's fun to watch others do that. I'm all for a solution that will let me find physical caches while others can still be challenged, though. It just seems like those who like to be challenged are really, really jealous about who can log a "find" on the caches they gree. Would be nice if the challenge part would become a mandatory separate find or reward from the actual find of the physical cache, but that wouldn't stop the greed... Thus my preference for the virtualization of the challenge caches and all the potential drawbacks (for you) that would follow.

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I just don't like to jump in fire hoops because someone thinks it's fun to watch others do that.

Appreciate that! If only more people would think reasonably in threads where many people have differing opinions :P

 

I'm all for a solution that will let me find physical caches while others can still be challenged, though. It just seems like those who like to be challenged are really, really jealous about who can log a "find" on the caches they gree.

...aaaand that's why the suggestion to allow people to log a find on challenges that the CO has decided (because no one else can, and it's not a competition between cachers) to allow finds without qualifications.

 

The problem is that as long as challenge caches are physical caches (a significant point in making challenge caches what they really are currently) there can never be a happy in-between where people can find-it-sign-it-log-it-online without the challenge ALR and require a qualification ALR before logging a challenge cache that can be physically found. They can't coexist, simultaneously; they are fundamentally mutually exclusive. Anyone demanding one or the other is necessarily making it less fun for the other side.

Providing the option to the owner of the cache is the closest I can foresee there being any form of compromise on the issue that doesn't favour one preference of playing over another.

That's of course apart from making challenge caches no longer composed of a physical cache; which is a whole other issue.

Which takes us back to Geocaching Challenges (with a bit tighter of a review process and a couple of minor changes, but nothing significant enough to make the idea sufficiently similar to the current challenge cache idea -- that is, containing a physical cache component)

Edited by thebruce0

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It just seems like those who like to be challenged are really, really jealous about who can log a "find" on the caches they gree.

Actually, I've been thinking that people that don't like to be challenged are acting as if they're jealous of people that can satisfy a challenge caches requirements to claim the find. What else but jealousy can explain why they want to claim finds on those challenge caches instead of just bypassing them?

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